They looked the same in 6 quarters as they looked in the Eagles game, but it’s definitely a part of it. Would have liked for the starters to get more preseason work than just one scripted drive.
So, the Giants need more work, but the rest of the NFL is fine?
they are healthy because of the lack of useless hitting. Most programs have now stopped tackling in practice.
Execution is the problem not live tackling, hitting, and pre-season games.
like the old 4th game used to be - not much starters.
Maybe the need for 'football shape' is a little over hyped, but there's some reality in there, IMO.
Practice is not the same as firing live bullets, and facing live bullets. In practice, there's a lot of the element of facing players/plays that are very familiar. Not so in a preseason game, and while the results of preseason games aren't critical, there's still the notion that each play matters.
I worried about the approach at the time, and the results backed up my worry.
That said, I don't think it fully explains the trouncing we too from Dallas. It was just a bad night where everything went wrong. It appears that carried over to the first half of AZ. Hopefully, the 2nd half of AZ carries over to SF.
you're my guy...but if there were overwhelming evidence that playing your starters more in the preseason were the slam-dunk, no doubt about it, best way to approach the preseason....
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I feel that the first 2-3 games are all over the place
because of the reduced preseason and minimal contact practices. For those of us that play fantasy football it is even more clear since you have players spread out across the league. There is way more volatility now than there was before all of these changes went into effect.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
you're my guy...but if there were overwhelming evidence that playing your starters more in the preseason were the slam-dunk, no doubt about it, best way to approach the preseason....
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I've watched 40 years of NFL football. I know what teams looked like in September in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. I know what they look like now.
Sure there is. Preseason is a great tool to get your team ready for the regular season.
There is is overwhelming evidence now that making camp softer and not playing starters in the preseason makes teams perform worse in September.
There also doesn't seem to be any significant decrease in injuries.
Where is this evidence?
It's all speculation. What is a soft practice comparatively?
The days of live hitting are over, at this level players don't need to be taught how to tackle.
I would argue the game is faster in shells and playing a useless game against players trying to make an impression is a recipe for injuries.
This team did not execute well and had a poor game plan vs. game speed issues.
Everyone wants the tough guy gladiator bullshit- oklahoma drill non-sense, all that does is cause injuries and beat up players.
RE: RE: RE: You're damned if you do, damned if you don't
Sure there is. Preseason is a great tool to get your team ready for the regular season.
There is is overwhelming evidence now that making camp softer and not playing starters in the preseason makes teams perform worse in September.
There also doesn't seem to be any significant decrease in injuries.
Where is this evidence?
It's all speculation. What is a soft practice comparatively?
The days of live hitting are over, at this level players don't need to be taught how to tackle.
I would argue the game is faster in shells and playing a useless game against players trying to make an impression is a recipe for injuries.
This team did not execute well and had a poor game plan vs. game speed issues.
Everyone wants the tough guy gladiator bullshit- oklahoma drill non-sense, all that does is cause injuries and beat up players.
I think it’s less about hitting and more about being in sync with play calls, being in the right spot, etc. One series in one preseason game is just not sufficient. If it was my team I’d have them play a quarter of game one, the first half of game two, and then play all of the young guys week 3.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
Then he better start paying closer attention to his own squad because Dak didn't take one snap this preseason.
you're my guy...but if there were overwhelming evidence that playing your starters more in the preseason were the slam-dunk, no doubt about it, best way to approach the preseason....
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I've watched 40 years of NFL football. I know what teams looked like in September in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. I know what they look like now.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Especially soft tissue injuries. I think a good portion of those are due to players lifting too many weights with non-team trainers. They may look great physically, be faster, etc. but their flexibility is often reduced.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Carl Banks has been saying this for years. This is why there are so many major injuries early in the season. You cant go from no hitting to full to full speed contact. you need to work your way up to it.
and how does anyone expect cohesion to develop in an OL, and timng between Qbs and WRs without live game experience? this is why SEPT football quality SUCKS. SEP now is what AUG was in the '80s
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Carl Banks has been saying this for years. This is why there are so many major injuries early in the season. You cant go from no hitting to full to full speed contact. you need to work your way up to it.
and how does anyone expect cohesion to develop in an OL, and timng between Qbs and WRs without live game experience? this is why SEPT football quality SUCKS. SEP now is what AUG was in the '80s
So if this were true...would it not also be true that all these injuries taking place at the beginning of the regular season instead take place during the preseason since players are only limited to a certain amount of full contact practices during the pre-season by CBA agreement????
We've been watching poor football in September ever since, and it's getting worse. Look at the 2022 Giants vs 2023, they were much better prepared for the season to begin a year ago.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
We've been watching poor football in September ever since, and it's getting worse. Look at the 2022 Giants vs 2023, they were much better prepared for the season to begin a year ago.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
They favor teams with more continuity. But even those teams have looked sloppy.
We've been watching poor football in September ever since, and it's getting worse. Look at the 2022 Giants vs 2023, they were much better prepared for the season to begin a year ago.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
I am surprised.
Maybe I'm wrong - but I didn't see the Cowboys game as a "lack of preason reps"... I think the Giants starters could have played 8 preseason games from start to finish and that ass beatin would have been the same.
It took this team 6 quarters to wake up, which is what most of the starters used to play in pre season years ago. 1 qtr in the first game, 2 qtr in the 2nd and 3 qtrs spread over the last 2 games. Especially since the preseason roster sizes are bigger and there are fewer/ shorter practices which means significantly fewer reps too. The players are simply not ready to play a game at the necessary level of intensity. Maybe it will even out by them being better later in the year, but I wouldn’t count on it,
We've been watching poor football in September ever since, and it's getting worse. Look at the 2022 Giants vs 2023, they were much better prepared for the season to begin a year ago.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
I am surprised.
Maybe I'm wrong - but I didn't see the Cowboys game as a "lack of preason reps"... I think the Giants starters could have played 8 preseason games from start to finish and that ass beatin would have been the same.
All the bounces going the Cowboys' way might have played out the same. Cowboys are clearly still the better football team. But, the Giants were gassed by halftime and didn't come close to matching the Cowboys physicality or engagement levels. I could see it, game was over at 26-0.
RE: The Steelers played their starters in every preseason and
There are always exceptions, as eric noted, it favors teams with continuity already in place. Giants are extremely young, roughly half the roster is new, etc. Again, trust your eyes and if you understand what you're actually watching, you'll see it.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
The only starter for Dallas to play in the preseason was Jake Ferguson. And he played one series.
McCarthy lost his LT in the preseason years back and vowed to not play his starters in the preseason. He has stayed true to his word because during his tenure in Dallas the starters have not played.
Last year when Dallas looked horrible against TB week 1 losing 19-3 there were many fans doubting McCarthy's policy about the preseason. But that was dispelled after week 1 this year.
Probably several have said, that the first few games are your starters' preseason.
I think it is total BS that with the regular season expansion, the way I look at it is, basically preseason 4 "counts". So that's one way to look at it, we lost our 4th preseason game vs the Cowboys, but it counts in the standings. And won our "first" regular season game after being dysfunctional for half the game.
I too would rather see more physical practices, and more of them, esp in training camp, starters getting more play time across three preseason games, and stop this nonsense with a 17th game (plus no more thursday night football at all).
Probably several have said, that the first few games are your starters' preseason.
I think it is total BS that with the regular season expansion, the way I look at it is, basically preseason 4 "counts". So that's one way to look at it, we lost our 4th preseason game vs the Cowboys, but it counts in the standings. And won our "first" regular season game after being dysfunctional for half the game.
I too would rather see more physical practices, and more of them, esp in training camp, starters getting more play time across three preseason games, and stop this nonsense with a 17th game (plus no more thursday night football at all).
Ever since Goodell came in the focus has been solely about money, they can care less about player health:
1.) Thursday night games which the players hate due to lack of recovery time.
2.) Adding 17th game instead of last preseason game to make more profit (they really wanted 18).
3.) Spreading the draft over three days to get more money off two prime time nights. I personally liked getting the guys together and watching the draft all day Saturday.
4.) Embracing all forms of gambling, but if a player gambles on a game their team is not involved with they are suspended for a full season (eg. Calvin Ridley).
5.) The Electronic Arts deal pisses me off the most with that monopoly they have created for a shitty product that looks the same with a roster update every season since no competitors are allowed anymore.
There are big issues with the defense.
Execution is the problem not live tackling, hitting, and pre-season games.
That's why everybody hates it.
That's why everybody hates it.
Sure there is. Preseason is a great tool to get your team ready for the regular season.
There is is overwhelming evidence now that making camp softer and not playing starters in the preseason makes teams perform worse in September.
There also doesn't seem to be any significant decrease in injuries.
Maybe the need for 'football shape' is a little over hyped, but there's some reality in there, IMO.
Practice is not the same as firing live bullets, and facing live bullets. In practice, there's a lot of the element of facing players/plays that are very familiar. Not so in a preseason game, and while the results of preseason games aren't critical, there's still the notion that each play matters.
I worried about the approach at the time, and the results backed up my worry.
That said, I don't think it fully explains the trouncing we too from Dallas. It was just a bad night where everything went wrong. It appears that carried over to the first half of AZ. Hopefully, the 2nd half of AZ carries over to SF.
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I've watched 40 years of NFL football. I know what teams looked like in September in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. I know what they look like now.
I go with what I see with more own eyes.
See attached article - clearly other coaches are thinking the same thing.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
there's no winning the pre-season in the NFL.
That's why everybody hates it.
Sure there is. Preseason is a great tool to get your team ready for the regular season.
There is is overwhelming evidence now that making camp softer and not playing starters in the preseason makes teams perform worse in September.
There also doesn't seem to be any significant decrease in injuries.
Where is this evidence?
It's all speculation. What is a soft practice comparatively?
The days of live hitting are over, at this level players don't need to be taught how to tackle.
I would argue the game is faster in shells and playing a useless game against players trying to make an impression is a recipe for injuries.
This team did not execute well and had a poor game plan vs. game speed issues.
Everyone wants the tough guy gladiator bullshit- oklahoma drill non-sense, all that does is cause injuries and beat up players.
Quote:
In comment 16211764 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
there's no winning the pre-season in the NFL.
That's why everybody hates it.
Sure there is. Preseason is a great tool to get your team ready for the regular season.
There is is overwhelming evidence now that making camp softer and not playing starters in the preseason makes teams perform worse in September.
There also doesn't seem to be any significant decrease in injuries.
Where is this evidence?
It's all speculation. What is a soft practice comparatively?
The days of live hitting are over, at this level players don't need to be taught how to tackle.
I would argue the game is faster in shells and playing a useless game against players trying to make an impression is a recipe for injuries.
This team did not execute well and had a poor game plan vs. game speed issues.
Everyone wants the tough guy gladiator bullshit- oklahoma drill non-sense, all that does is cause injuries and beat up players.
I think it’s less about hitting and more about being in sync with play calls, being in the right spot, etc. One series in one preseason game is just not sufficient. If it was my team I’d have them play a quarter of game one, the first half of game two, and then play all of the young guys week 3.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
Then he better start paying closer attention to his own squad because Dak didn't take one snap this preseason.
Quote:
you're my guy...but if there were overwhelming evidence that playing your starters more in the preseason were the slam-dunk, no doubt about it, best way to approach the preseason....
Then every team in the NFL would be doing it.
I've watched 40 years of NFL football. I know what teams looked like in September in the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s. I know what they look like now.
I go with what I see with more own eyes.
I see how you roll Gettleman :)
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Especially soft tissue injuries. I think a good portion of those are due to players lifting too many weights with non-team trainers. They may look great physically, be faster, etc. but their flexibility is often reduced.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Carl Banks has been saying this for years. This is why there are so many major injuries early in the season. You cant go from no hitting to full to full speed contact. you need to work your way up to it.
and how does anyone expect cohesion to develop in an OL, and timng between Qbs and WRs without live game experience? this is why SEPT football quality SUCKS. SEP now is what AUG was in the '80s
Quote:
BS.
Two-a-day practices, with full pads in one of those practices with actual hitting in training camp did not lead to more injuries. The reverse happened, teams got softer and more injuries were the result.
Think of it terms of a boxer who gets used to punishment or someone who works with his hands developing calluses. The more used to violent contact your body gets, the tougher you become.
Again, this isn't theory.
We witnessed it for decades up until this new brand of "safe" football.
The irony is they are getting more players hurt.
Carl Banks has been saying this for years. This is why there are so many major injuries early in the season. You cant go from no hitting to full to full speed contact. you need to work your way up to it.
and how does anyone expect cohesion to develop in an OL, and timng between Qbs and WRs without live game experience? this is why SEPT football quality SUCKS. SEP now is what AUG was in the '80s
So if this were true...would it not also be true that all these injuries taking place at the beginning of the regular season instead take place during the preseason since players are only limited to a certain amount of full contact practices during the pre-season by CBA agreement????
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
They favor teams with more continuity. But even those teams have looked sloppy.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
I am surprised.
Maybe I'm wrong - but I didn't see the Cowboys game as a "lack of preason reps"... I think the Giants starters could have played 8 preseason games from start to finish and that ass beatin would have been the same.
But that isn't changing.
And getting back to the original OP - given the current state of the NFL and rules of engagement for the camp/preseason...
I would say NO - the Giants should not play their starters more in the preseason.
IMO - the cons far out-way the pros.
How did they do week 1?
Quote:
We've been watching poor football in September ever since, and it's getting worse. Look at the 2022 Giants vs 2023, they were much better prepared for the season to begin a year ago.
Lighter camps mean teams are not ready for the regular season on time, and are less conditioned for the physicality as well as sixty minutes of NFL football. Trust your eyes and the facts, lighter camps might serve a few particular teams, but certainly not the greater good.
I am surprised.
Maybe I'm wrong - but I didn't see the Cowboys game as a "lack of preason reps"... I think the Giants starters could have played 8 preseason games from start to finish and that ass beatin would have been the same.
All the bounces going the Cowboys' way might have played out the same. Cowboys are clearly still the better football team. But, the Giants were gassed by halftime and didn't come close to matching the Cowboys physicality or engagement levels. I could see it, game was over at 26-0.
How did they do week 1?
There are always exceptions, as eric noted, it favors teams with continuity already in place. Giants are extremely young, roughly half the roster is new, etc. Again, trust your eyes and if you understand what you're actually watching, you'll see it.
They do not require many reps to get ready for the season.
The Giants on the other hand have the youngest starting lineup in football with an average age of 25.
Add in that the OL is even younger, especially if you take Glowinski out of the equation.
Young players with little game experience need to play.
It is not surprising that the Giants were unprepared for game action.
Its all BS
You run a soft preseason program you fet a soft team.
Dont the coaches always say you play as you practice?
Enough said about our preseason practices.
I ran into him Saturday and of course he wanted to talk about the game.
I told him it's scary to think Dallas may be that good, but I also said it's even scarier to contemplate that the Giants are that bad. He just mocked Daniel Jones, basically blaming him for the loss.
When I told him the Giants first-team offensive unit only played one series in the preseason, he didn't believe me.
The only starter for Dallas to play in the preseason was Jake Ferguson. And he played one series.
McCarthy lost his LT in the preseason years back and vowed to not play his starters in the preseason. He has stayed true to his word because during his tenure in Dallas the starters have not played.
Last year when Dallas looked horrible against TB week 1 losing 19-3 there were many fans doubting McCarthy's policy about the preseason. But that was dispelled after week 1 this year.
I think it is total BS that with the regular season expansion, the way I look at it is, basically preseason 4 "counts". So that's one way to look at it, we lost our 4th preseason game vs the Cowboys, but it counts in the standings. And won our "first" regular season game after being dysfunctional for half the game.
I too would rather see more physical practices, and more of them, esp in training camp, starters getting more play time across three preseason games, and stop this nonsense with a 17th game (plus no more thursday night football at all).
I think it is total BS that with the regular season expansion, the way I look at it is, basically preseason 4 "counts". So that's one way to look at it, we lost our 4th preseason game vs the Cowboys, but it counts in the standings. And won our "first" regular season game after being dysfunctional for half the game.
I too would rather see more physical practices, and more of them, esp in training camp, starters getting more play time across three preseason games, and stop this nonsense with a 17th game (plus no more thursday night football at all).
Ever since Goodell came in the focus has been solely about money, they can care less about player health:
1.) Thursday night games which the players hate due to lack of recovery time.
2.) Adding 17th game instead of last preseason game to make more profit (they really wanted 18).
3.) Spreading the draft over three days to get more money off two prime time nights. I personally liked getting the guys together and watching the draft all day Saturday.
4.) Embracing all forms of gambling, but if a player gambles on a game their team is not involved with they are suspended for a full season (eg. Calvin Ridley).
5.) The Electronic Arts deal pisses me off the most with that monopoly they have created for a shitty product that looks the same with a roster update every season since no competitors are allowed anymore.
They're better.