Yesterday on his show, Tiki addressed those calling KT a bust, which included both media members and fans. He said first, those people aren't watching with a knowledge of the game, but just a fantasy football skewed eye only on stats. He went on to point out, KT is not being used in a way to pin his ears back and get to the QB, at least not this past week. He was dropped in coverage a lot and asked to set the edge. Also pointed out, most opposing runs are away from him due to his stout play against the run.
He said it is fair to have high expectations for a #5 pick, including sacks. But, at least in part, he is not compiling those stat because of how he is used/ But, that he is still a talented and valuable player. Tiki guessed KT's role will change from game to game, depending on the opponent.
Overall, I see what he's saying. But, a couple of areas I think are too excuse heavy. One, Tiki pointed out the number of times KT was double teamed. That's fine. But, an impact player taken at #5 should not be stoned from every double team. Likewise, his other point about teams running away from him is weak. A true impact player from his position still finds ways to make plays. Obviously LT was on a whole other level, but how many times a game did he run down a RB or WR on the other side of the field?
Ummm, his outfit was freakin baller.
Two games into season 2? Jesus people. Relax. Let’s see how the season plays out.
A more athletic Ward is maybe what Wink is looking for. Thibs always has been a "luxury" in this system.
Two games into season 2? Jesus people. Relax. Let’s see how the season plays out.
In that case would it be a mismatch with how Thibodeaux is built, which indicates a coaching problem? He's more of a speed and finesse guy in play style, and unless you have the leg power or can get leverage on the lineman, a power rush is going to peter out quickly; that's something I disliked with Ojulari and Carter to name a couple edge rushers. Contrast with Michael Strahan who could walk tackles back into the quarterback with leg drive or blow them off their feet if he hit them in the right spot (i.e. blowing Jon Runyan off his feet in the 2000 Divisional Playoffs).
We want them doing the dirty work and him kept reasonably clean to provide the impact plays. He's supposed to be the goods.
Fans are probably right to be upset if Wink is using him as a can opener, as I mentioned before Thibs is a "luxury" in Wink's system. I think Wink wants someone who is more willingly to get in a knife fight in a phone a booth type LBer, maybe a DE/LB hyrbrid.
he has the talent to do it but they are scheming more than letting him line up and make plays.
ask and i believe they shall receive. slow a guys motor a bit and you wont. i think they will find a balance and work it out
From what I can tell he has good size 6’5” 255 lbs. He was clocked at 4.59 in the 40 which is good, but not extraordinary. He also doesn’t look like he’s a body guy with a ripped upper body or huge legs. What made Kayvon be a candidate for the #1 overall pick, because I’m just not seeing it?
I agree and I have concerns about KT. If you take the other side of Tiki's argument-is it that Wink and Dabol see that he's not the killer/assassin sack artist coming off the edge that say a Garret or Parson's is so that's why they are using him to be a what: "can opener" I think was the term Wink used last year. He's setting up others to pressure or he's dropping into coverage. Is that by necessity because his pass rush is poor?
I think it was Eric who pointed out that KT has a weak base to bull rush. He needs to get strong on the lower half so that just leaves a speed game and having multiple moves to go to when rushing.
For me by far is best game was the 2nd Wash game last yr where he was all over the place. But that's it, we are still waiting for a similar impact.
However, IMO the criticism is fair considering his level of play and where he was drafted.
And I do put a lot of emphasis on the daft position. 5th overall pick has to be excellent or it sets the team back in progress. He'll want to be paid like it when the time comes.
2) Thibodeaux has dropped into coverage on about 20% of the passing plays this year. Slightly more than last year's 14%, but I would hardly call it "a lot".
3) He has had over two dozen pass rush attempts on an island against one blocker and has one pressure. That is really bad - BUT it is such a small sample size and. agree it is foolish to consider him a "bust" (one of the most overused words ever)
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The disconnect is this:
Thibodeaux has not played well in 2 games. He has not defeated one on one blocking when the opportunity arises. His power game looks poor. And he did not make any impressive/instinctive plays when he was the back side defender. I watch a lot of football college and NFL every week and I have done so for over a decade. Guys can innovate/react and make plays away from the ball. Hell, he did it last year a few times.
The point is...he has NOT done any of that yet in 2 games. And that is where the conversation ends. It IS allowed to be said he has not played well. At the same time, it is dumb to call him a failure, bust, or whatever else that fits along those lines. And also at the same time - it is dumb to act like you need to defend him against those that call out a lack of impact play.
Evaluation is a week to week process and then you can put it in pen after the year if you feel the need to. But in season? Thibodeaux is 0 for 2 on quality games and anyone saying otherwise has fallen victim to confirmation bias.
If you want another example...look at the response to Daniel Jones (wk 1 and wk 2). I call it what it is. Good, bad, ugly, beautiful.
But guess what? Nothing matters when the next game starts. Some can't seem to accept that.
Thibodeaux could definitely walk out there tomorrow night and have a big night. It will be noted if he does. It will be lifted up if he does. If he has another quiet game, it will be noted as well. He proved he is a good player. He has not yet proved he can be one of the best. He has not yet proved he can be a power player.
It is simpler than most of you (Tiki, you too) want to think.
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And his comments on Thibodeaux in his game review are not complimentary.
And on Baldy's breakdowns he showed a play where he completely froze inexplicably on a running play coming from the back side.
This was the play that disappointed me the most, as well.
I have seen this several time over the years and even the plays where the trap block comes his way - ever since the knee injury he has taken them on with hesitation more often than not.
Either Tiki is just lifting his opinion directly from what he read on Twitter, or these are talking points that the Giants have decided upon and those who are friendly within the media are carrying some water to push the "too many fantasy football stat geeks" narrative.
From what I can tell he has good size 6’5” 255 lbs. He was clocked at 4.59 in the 40 which is good, but not extraordinary. He also doesn’t look like he’s a body guy with a ripped upper body or huge legs. What made Kayvon be a candidate for the #1 overall pick, because I’m just not seeing it?
I believe he was a 5* recruit, and yeah didn't really live up to the hype in college, but people fall in love with names.
I think we will all be happy if that actually happens.
Of Joshua Dobbs 23-yard TD scamper.
Thibs went way too wide and way too deep (past the QB) creating for Dobbs a gaping alley into the endzone.
If as i believe Wink wants his olb to rush but with containment that affects the pass rush as you have to bull rush more and not make an inside pass rush. So you are effectively left with an outside rush or bull rush.
If we used KT like Dallas uses Parsons, which i think we should, results would be different.
I think Wink should unleash KT and have him pass rush from where ever KT wants. Have him jumping around the line of scrimmage so the offense doesnt know where he is going to rush from.
I think a player like KT does best when they can freelance and use all of their abilities.
If you want someone to just set the edge and bull rush you dont need KT for that.
Now everything else like teams are running away from him sounds like narrative, more likely teams are running at an unathletic Ward and teams tend to be right handed in the running game.
New York Giants fans aren't going to give him a chance at this point. Same with Evan Neal.
Worst city to play in as an athlete.
Aren't complete overreactions the worst?
2.0 sacks and 3 more needed pressures from Thibs tomorrow night.
Book it.
Against possibly the best OT in the league? I say he gets shut out and we have another week of these threads.
I was thinking this as well. Sooner or later this point is going to hit him and if it is a matter of doing what the coaches ask, then how long will his demeanor remain the same?
I seem to recall Michael Strahan being a 2nd round pick out of HBCU Texas Southern, not a top-5 pick out of P5 Oregon.
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had two bad games to start the season.
That doesn't mean he's a bust, but also no one should be defending when he has two bad games.
If he finds a way to get a sack on Trent tomorrow night it will change the narrative quickly.
It's beyond that at this point. Fans are claiming they can tell he is not interested in football by just looking at him. We've reached moron level of fandom here.
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And his comments on Thibodeaux in his game review are not complimentary.
I agree with Sy's assessment for the most part. I just wanted to share what I heard because I hadn't heard it referenced elsewhere and Tiki was stressing that he watches games through the lens of an analyst.
Well, whatever lens Tiki watches it through, the words he chose to describe what he's seeing are almost verbatim the words that Dottino used yesterday (and those were supposedly from his conversation directly with KT).
Feels like one of Hanlon's standard-issue friendly press campaigns.
The narrative surrounding KT right now is he simply doesn't care about football. Because some fan posted a video of him sitting on the bench during the game.
Last night, we had fans claim the Sights and Sound video PROVED his heart is not in it. Why? Because he was standing in a team huddle with other teammates.
You can't make this up.
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In comment 16213588 Eric from BBI said:
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should just cut him at this point.
New York Giants fans aren't going to give him a chance at this point. Same with Evan Neal.
Worst city to play in as an athlete.
Do you think he's living up to reasonable expectations of performance for a #5 overall pick - yes or no?
I don't play armchair psychologist. I have no idea what his mindset is. All I know is that he has been invisible so far this year and, aside from a couple of games, underwhelmed last year as well.
Of course not. Don't be stupid.
But no one on the defense is playing well.
I think if DG made those picks, the hate on this forum would be so great, the weight of the hate would become so massive that it would collapse upon itself not even allowing light to escape.
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And his comments on Thibodeaux in his game review are not complimentary.
I agree with Sy's assessment for the most part. I just wanted to share what I heard because I hadn't heard it referenced elsewhere and Tiki was stressing that he watches games through the lens of an analyst.
I wonder if anyalyst Tiki is going to throw the coach and QB under the bus in the national media.
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that Schoen should be fired are ridiculous. His overall body of work, in my opinion, is still strong enough. Look, for example, how many starters or significant contributors we are getting from this year's draft. Look at the overall roster turnover and salary cap overhaul that took place in less than 2 seasons.
I think if DG made those picks, the hate on this forum would be so great, the weight of the hate would become so massive that it would collapse upon itself not even allowing light to escape.
But but but DG didn't make those picks.
Another strawman from Coach Denny Memelord.
On the other hand, a #5 is reasonably expected to impact games. He isn't doing that. There is a difference, though, between not being an impact player and being a bust. He is not the latter.
Additionally, I have not loved Wink's defense, overall, including last year. I thought last year it had a lot to do with personnel. But, this year I think we actually have pretty good talent and depth for most positions. What I don't like is this hybrid format he uses. I want a true 3 or 4 man DL. Ward is not a 3-4 DE. Neither is Ojulari, KT, Ximenes, etc. I don't like designating EDGE, especially when that person is not being used as such. 2 DL is not cutting it.
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In comment 16213781 Matt M. said:
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that Schoen should be fired are ridiculous. His overall body of work, in my opinion, is still strong enough. Look, for example, how many starters or significant contributors we are getting from this year's draft. Look at the overall roster turnover and salary cap overhaul that took place in less than 2 seasons.
I think if DG made those picks, the hate on this forum would be so great, the weight of the hate would become so massive that it would collapse upon itself not even allowing light to escape.
But but but DG didn't make those picks.
Another strawman from Coach Denny Memelord.
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
The narrative surrounding KT right now is he simply doesn't care about football. Because some fan posted a video of him sitting on the bench during the game.
Last night, we had fans claim the Sights and Sound video PROVED his heart is not in it. Why? Because he was standing in a team huddle with other teammates.
You can't make this up.
On bbi. You could definitely make that up and I’d believe it.
And? So, we should just shut up and wait for the 4th year to evaluate KT?
Strahan wasn't a top five pick. He was the 40th pick. Those tend to get more runaway to succeed.
The same argument can be applied to Neal though it is less convincing. Neal was not good last year and has not been good this year. Realize the PFF grades are subjective but using them as a measure it seems like grasping at straws to say his 2nd game was an improvement over his first game. Weaker opponent by far and he had help throughout. Would have been difficult not to improve.
"when you're the 5th pick, fans are going to lose their minds and develop unrealistic expectations"
When did the 5th overall pick become this franchise defining player / moment? It's the 5th pick. It's ONE pick. Yes it's a premium pick and yes you want a good or great player at pick 5 but the facts are the typical player picked 5th overall does not end up as a legendary or even great player. More often than not it is a good player, maybe occasional pro bowler--sometimes it's an excellent player:
2013 Ezekiel Ansah
2012 Justin Blackmon
2011 Patrick Peterson
2010 Eric Berry
2009 Mark Sanchez
2008 Glenn Dorsey
2007 Levi Brown
2006 A.J. Hawk
2005 Carnell Williams
2004 Sean Taylor
2003 Terence Newman
2002 Quentin Jammer
2001 LaDainian Tomlinson
2000 Jamal Lewis
1999 Ricky Williams
1998 Curtis Enis
1997 Bryant Westbrook
1996 Cedric Jones
1995 Kerry Collins
1994 Trev Alberts
1993 John Copeland
1992 Terrell Buckley
1991 Todd Lyght
1990 Junior Seau
1989 Deion Sanders
1988 Rickey Dixon
1987 Mike Junkin
1986 Anthony Bell
1985 Duane Bickett
1984 Bill Maas
1983 Billy Ray Smith
1982 Jim McMahon
1981 E.J. Junior
1980 Curtis Dickey
I had to listen to some dude at the deli tell me Schoen won't survive if Thibs isn't a great player year in year out.
Since when did the 5th overall player become the first overall player? IT's not the same thing.
Devin White (very good player--don't book his ticket to canton just yet)
Tua (taking his share of lumps but patience seems to be paying off in year 4)
Jamar Chase (star from the jump, kind of rare)
He is in no way shape or form a bust.
If you watch the Game vs AZ, KT was double teamed a lot. He was asked to set an edge a lot. I too would expect a few more pressures and maybe a tackle for a loss by now. I am not making excuses for KT.
Personally, I would like to see more aggressiveness from the entire front 7. Maybe with 2 rookie CB's that is hard to accomplish?