heading into this season a lot of the talk, from both fans and those in the Giants organization, was closing the gap on the upper echelon NFL teams, specifically the two in our division. However, after three games it's not only apparent the gap is no where closer than it was last season, it may actually be further apart than a year ago. And that's what is bothering me this morning.
This team was supposed to improve in 2023-24, not regress...
And coupled with the state of the OL, well it's going to be a rough road.
No NFC North/AFC South games this season.
Some of that is exacerbated by playing tough teams early and injuries but I don't want to sugar coat or make excuses. I thought this was a 10 win team before the season started now I am not so sure. Very lucky we are not 0-3.
I'm not saying I'm surprised they lost to both Dallas and San Fran, but it's the way in which they lost. They just looked like a team that didn't even belong on the same field...hence my point that the gap is no where closer to where it was a year ago.
Bill, Joe Scheon specifically mentioned in his presser at the end of 2022 season that the goal for the off-season was to close the gap with teams like Philly and Dallas.
Agreed...
Same problems - same level a ability (disability) - they are in a group of about 6 teams that are all vying to make the last couple WC spots (Vikes/Saints/Seahawks/Commanders/Det/GB) but not as good as the top teams in the conference (49ers/Eagles/Cowboys).
Maybe one of those six teams (maybe a new team gets brought into the group like a TB) get a good 1st round draw and win a game, BUT the gap hasn't been closed.
It's early, and things could change (injuries/disgruntled players/etc)...but I don't see it changing much.
Secondly we said if thibs and Ojulari don’t improve we don’t have a fucking defense. Clearly we do not have a pass rush. It’s very said when your best pass rusher is 350lbs and plays nose tackle
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We beat the other team. Did folks really think we were “closing the gap” with legit SB contenders. How about we see how we do against opponents who are reasonable comparisons. Sorry not to be jumping to conclusions. I know that’s not acceptable here.
Bill, Joe Scheon specifically mentioned in his presser at the end of 2022 season that the goal for the off-season was to close the gap with teams like Philly and Dallas.
Because he should have said the opposite.
I'm really really concerned with both. Alabama OL have had such a dismal failure rate in NFL and I'm seeing it being a case of both being "floor" athletes in college than "ceiling" players in the NFL. I'm not sure this is an issue of being coached up or schemed in better.
In watching Thibs, I can see such a difference in that he doesn't have an arsenal of moves, and he lacks burst and closing speed into the QB. He needs the rest of his line to open up space for him - that's not a good recipe for a top rusher at all and certainly one we shouldn't look to pay a second contract even if he has average production.
1. Does Evan Neal grow into a serviceable right tackle?
2. Do the young cornerbacks grow and mature into a pairing that can allow Wink Martindale to blitz to his heart's content?
3. Do they find an offensive line configuration with all of the picks from the last 2 years that is above average?
4. Does Kayvon Thibodeaux grow into a disruptive premier pass rusher?
5. Does Daniel Jones entrench himself as a top 10 QB?
None of these questions are quite answered so far. I'm most concerned about #4 at this point, honestly; Thibodeaux looks to me like he's missing his burst or something. It's very strange to watch; I don't doubt his effort, but he is getting neutralized and blown off the ball a lot.
All of that said: if the team grows into what it can be, that would close the gap considerably. I am not surprised that the gap is what it is today. The Giants had the misfortune of running up against two of the NFL's most mature, established top flight teams in their first 3 weeks, and in both games their most important non-QB player was either limited or out. So the results shouldn't shock us.
The Seattle game really is the acid test. If Seattle blows them out I'd be quite discouraged.
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In comment 16217170 BillT said:
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We beat the other team. Did folks really think we were “closing the gap” with legit SB contenders. How about we see how we do against opponents who are reasonable comparisons. Sorry not to be jumping to conclusions. I know that’s not acceptable here.
Bill, Joe Scheon specifically mentioned in his presser at the end of 2022 season that the goal for the off-season was to close the gap with teams like Philly and Dallas.
Because he should have said the opposite.
Of course he's not gonna say the opposite, but in any business if you have a proposed goal heading into a year and you fall short of that goal it's problematic. The goal was to close the gap, and right now through 3 weeks they have fallen way short of that in 2023.
I am more concerned about the defense. Can't get off the field on third downs; they blitzed almost every play and only got a couple of sacks; still no turnovers through three games. The offensive line is a problem right now but they're missing their best player.
Honest question, Bill, through these first three weeks do you think this team is better or worse than the 2022 team? I am not saying this team was a super bowl contender heading into 2023, or that they are not still rebuilding. However, I also thought we would continue to see progress from them heading into year 2 of the rebuild. And so far it appears by the way they have been playing they have gotten worse.
Hell, through the first 6 quarters of the season they had the worst Points For/Points Against ratio of any team in the NFL in the past 50 years! And two of those quarters was against a lousy Cardinals team.
We squeaked by the team many expect to “win” the first pick in the draft. It’s fine to point out that DAL and SF are 2 of the better teams in the league, but AZ may be the worst.
Take away the 2nd half last week, and we’ve scored 12 points in 2 games. That’s not going to cut it, no matter the level of comp. They’ve got 11 days to prep for Seattle. I expect a big win, if they lose, they may be playing for the top pick.
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that the Giants would not be able to compete with the Cowboys, Eagles, and 49ers, barring a near miracle. The result of last night should be surprising to noone
I'm not saying I'm surprised they lost to both Dallas and San Fran, but it's the way in which they lost. They just looked like a team that didn't even belong on the same field...hence my point that the gap is no where closer to where it was a year ago.
Reality is that the Giants improved, but where they are improved is at skill positions. Pass catching TE, WR, MLB. Where the huge gap is between the Giants and those three teams is at the line of scrimmage. JMS is an improvement, but young. Other than that, it's looking the same as last year pretty much
A gap that significant is very hard to make up quickly, but the Giants need to ensure that they have the right people in place to evaluate, develop, and deploy the men in those roles because until they do they are looking at 3-4 divisional losses per season for the near term future.
We waited out the vaunted Cowboys OL of the 2010s and now they have the best pass rush in football.
The team has 2 weeks before they travel again and all the tape in the world to work from on where they're falling short. On that tape is a very mixed bag from Waller and an empty one for Campbell.
Whether the score differential was -60 or -6 we were going to be 1-2 today barring some good fortune and our vets really stepping up while the young guys get baptized.
We didn't get that.
Also, When you have a player on your roster that won the Bilitnekoff award, he really should see the football.
I will tell you this right now. If Gettleman drafted Neal, Thibs, and signed Okreke this place would be a dumpster fire right now in terms of toxic threads. Joe Schoen gets a lot of time (and I agree with this) to turn it around, but the early results from him are not very promising. Daboll seems to be a good coach, so I have hope there. But, after watching the first three weeks this feels like 2017 all over again.
I will tell you this right now. If Gettleman drafted Neal, Thibs, and signed Okreke this place would be a dumpster fire right now in terms of toxic threads. Joe Schoen gets a lot of time (and I agree with this) to turn it around, but the early results from him are not very promising. Daboll seems to be a good coach, so I have hope there. But, after watching the first three weeks this feels like 2017 all over again.Have to agree
There's still 14 games remaining, and I expect the coaches to start cracking the whip, get healthy as possible, and wake the fook up.
What we said was it would take time to upgrade the entire roster; I still believe that. What we did not say is to miss on the 5th and 7th pick of the draft; what we didn't say is to bust on Okreke. The early returns do not show that this is headed in the right direction. In fact, what everyone said about last year being a fluke because we had an easy schedule and we were statistically brillaint on 3rd down and in the red zone is turning out to be accurate. I have some faith in Daboll--Schoen has been a disappointment so far in terms of measurable player development
There's still 14 games remaining, and I expect the coaches to start cracking the whip, get healthy as possible, and wake the fook up.
Yeah, I didn't see regression with individual players as a possibility. A 1-2 record at this point, given those that could not play, is the likely outcome.
The Evan Neal situation is the most troubling, but again it's 3 games in and he just now completed his first 17 games of playing RT in the NFL.
Paris Campbell is one that I could not be more wrong about. I really thought he would add some speed to the slot position and help open up Waller/Slayton/Hyatt.
My expectation for this team was to win 10 games and get a WC spot again. It's still on the table, but as others have pointed out, 10/2 vs. Seattle is very likely a must win game.
2. nobody expected the defense/wink to regress with almost entirely upgraded personnel. they spent big $ on okereke, took banks in round 1, added a-shawn and nacho in FA, traded for simmons. those were all upgrades on minimum salary players last year.
3. they kept the game reasonably competitive last night and came out with an actual effort. when teams are 10+ point underdogs they are rarely going to win.
the defense is concerning and they need to get the ol functional, but anyone who saw the schedule the day it came out knew 1-2 was a distinct possibility even if they were healthy.
There's still 14 games remaining, and I expect the coaches to start cracking the whip, get healthy as possible, and wake the fook up.
You see the same thing all around the league, and it's exactly as Schoen said - need to see what's there and how they respond to adversity.
I think the D answered the bell last night till they were gassed. The OL did about what you could expect given their inexperience. Only time will tell if having a young OL develop at the same time turns out to be brilliance or folly. Glowinski was supposed to be a safety valve - his regression is one of those little things that's had a big impact.
Still, a couple different bounces and calls -- and a play or two from SOMEONE on offense -- and today is a very different story.
2. nobody expected the defense/wink to regress with almost entirely upgraded personnel. they spent big $ on okereke, took banks in round 1, added a-shawn and nacho in FA, traded for simmons. those were all upgrades on minimum salary players last year.
3. they kept the game reasonably competitive last night and came out with an actual effort. when teams are 10+ point underdogs they are rarely going to win.
the defense is concerning and they need to get the ol functional, but anyone who saw the schedule the day it came out knew 1-2 was a distinct possibility even if they were healthy.
Distinct probability of 1-2.
Good post.
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1. if anyone knew this would be their OL in week 2/3 nobody would have expected any gap to close. esp without barkley. mckethan wasn't a lock to be active right now, lemiuex was at best 50/50 to make the roster let alone start.
2. nobody expected the defense/wink to regress with almost entirely upgraded personnel. they spent big $ on okereke, took banks in round 1, added a-shawn and nacho in FA, traded for simmons. those were all upgrades on minimum salary players last year.
3. they kept the game reasonably competitive last night and came out with an actual effort. when teams are 10+ point underdogs they are rarely going to win.
the defense is concerning and they need to get the ol functional, but anyone who saw the schedule the day it came out knew 1-2 was a distinct possibility even if they were healthy.
Distinct probability of 1-2.
Good post.
The 1-2 isnt the problem, it is how we are 1-2.
I did expect more from NYG in '23, perhaps it will get better. The warts and holes were known coming, plus the key injuries further waters down the talent level.
I still expect a more well-coached team, they're playing with their heads up their arses too often.
I think we have talent on both sides of the ball. I have hated out gameplans and playcalling and I am really starting to despise Wink's scheme altogether.
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We beat the other team. Did folks really think we were “closing the gap” with legit SB contenders. How about we see how we do against opponents who are reasonable comparisons. Sorry not to be jumping to conclusions. I know that’s not acceptable here.
We squeaked by the team many expect to “win” the first pick in the draft. It’s fine to point out that DAL and SF are 2 of the better teams in the league, but AZ may be the worst.
Take away the 2nd half last week, and we’ve scored 12 points in 2 games. That’s not going to cut it, no matter the level of comp. They’ve got 11 days to prep for Seattle. I expect a big win, if they lose, they may be playing for the top pick.
The Cardinals next two games are against......the Cowboys and 49ers. Interested to see how that turns out.
I thought so too. I actually thought the skill players were terrible.
I said the same during the game. Given the lack of experience and the opponent I was ok with the performance.
i agree greg. the OL has been a challenge but somewhat workable. SF is a tough matchup but glowinski crapping the bed and being forced to play lemiuex it's almost impossible.
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But, under the circumstances, the OL exceeded my admittedly very low expectations. They weren't good, mind you, but I was expecting an even more porous than the Dallas game performance.
I thought so too. I actually thought the skill players were terrible.
agreed very disappointed in waller yesterday and campbell generally. deebo and cmc made catches all game like the 3 waller dropped, which i think at least 2 of would have been big first downs.
deebo held on to that one catching getting blasted by mckinney that for many others gets popped into the air like wallers that turned into the game ending INT.
its early but seeing campbell, its hard to believe they thought he was worth more this year than love is making in SEA. he just doesnt look natural catching the ball ever. i think beasley or crowder would have been better and they were minimum signings.
add in glowinski's 8m on the bench and so far this year their ROI on free agency is looking pretty bad.
Secondly we said if thibs and Ojulari don’t improve we don’t have a fucking defense. Clearly we do not have a pass rush. It’s very said when your best pass rusher is 350lbs and plays nose tackle
I’m a broken record since last night on this, but if the results stay the same for the 2021 & 2022 draft classes the Giants are, at a minimum 2 years away from anything substantial.
Too many underperforming players defensively which tells me its coaching.
They need some of these guys to get better.
There are no more surprises. Our opponents had all winter to study what we did.
This year was all about closing the gap, and it widened.
Last year the Giants could beat the bad teams but lose to the good ones.
This year? They've gone backwards. (You either get better or you get worse, you don't stay the same.) You either keep innovating, developing players and staying ahead of the league, or the league catches up to you.
I certainly think the worse record than last year is going to be true. But I can't say the improved and better team from last year will be.
Will it be a regressed team? I don't know, too early to tell. Not positive signs so far, but there are reasons for that which shouldn't be ignored.
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In comment 16217420 Eric on Li said:
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1. if anyone knew this would be their OL in week 2/3 nobody would have expected any gap to close. esp without barkley. mckethan wasn't a lock to be active right now, lemiuex was at best 50/50 to make the roster let alone start.
2. nobody expected the defense/wink to regress with almost entirely upgraded personnel. they spent big $ on okereke, took banks in round 1, added a-shawn and nacho in FA, traded for simmons. those were all upgrades on minimum salary players last year.
3. they kept the game reasonably competitive last night and came out with an actual effort. when teams are 10+ point underdogs they are rarely going to win.
the defense is concerning and they need to get the ol functional, but anyone who saw the schedule the day it came out knew 1-2 was a distinct possibility even if they were healthy.
Distinct probability of 1-2.
Good post.
The 1-2 isnt the problem, it is how we are 1-2.
dallas was an embarrassment but the last 2 games were within the realm of what was predicted. they were a 10 point dog to SF on the road, the were a 4 or 5 point favorite on the road vs arizona and they didnt cover but they pulled it out.
post dallas anyone would have signed for 1-1 heading into seattle.
even before dallas im not sure anyone would have bet on 2-1 even with really good odds. after dallas certainly not.
the most surprising aspect of the 1-2 start to me is that they were so unable to generate turnovers on purdy and dobbs. those are not very good qbs and while neither lit them up, they have 0 turnovers, have dropped interceptions, and havent generated much pass rush from a guy most were expecting to take a leap forward.
Where's the coaching we had last year, elevating performances beyond what we expected? We haven't caught anyone off guard this year.
Look, I don't expect to be as talented as the 49ers or the Cowboys. But I expected some solid play from guys because of good coaching, and our sidelines being smarter, tougher, more dependable than the opposing sideline.
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In comment 16217437 Greg from LI said:
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But, under the circumstances, the OL exceeded my admittedly very low expectations. They weren't good, mind you, but I was expecting an even more porous than the Dallas game performance.
I thought so too. I actually thought the skill players were terrible.
agreed very disappointed in waller yesterday and campbell generally. deebo and cmc made catches all game like the 3 waller dropped, which i think at least 2 of would have been big first downs.
deebo held on to that one catching getting blasted by mckinney that for many others gets popped into the air like wallers that turned into the game ending INT.
its early but seeing campbell, its hard to believe they thought he was worth more this year than love is making in SEA. he just doesnt look natural catching the ball ever. i think beasley or crowder would have been better and they were minimum signings.
add in glowinski's 8m on the bench and so far this year their ROI on free agency is looking pretty bad.
I wasn't all that enthused about Campbell, I never noticed him much watching Colts games (which weren't many, to be clear).
Waller has been a big disappointment. Again, don't watch a ton of Raiders games, but his stats and pedigree suggested something much more than what we've seen.
that's what i was thinking. so far, they have been major disappointments. Thibs completely disappears and Neal whiffs too many times. I would expect them to be at least average NFL players.
It’s sad because they got through TC with no injuries and the. Sustained a ton early on. And critical ones at that. I. Some regards it doesn’t matter tho for where they are. The giants are playing to get to the dance. Not truly for the division or the 1 seed. In the league now you gotta hang around .500 until the midway then get to 9 or 10 wins. The key is to improve over the course of the season. That is a hallmark of good coaching and really “the patriot way”. Get your shit together by thanksgiving then make the push.
The biggest issues this far are just sheer sloppiness. Missed tackling, and players not making plays, missed reads etc. to me that’s rust and not having a firm sense of how to deploy personnel.
I’m not hitting the panic button yet. We lost to 2 better and more experienced teams. We will see what the staff and team is made of. We need to improve week to week. Beat the teams we should beat. Win the majority of the games against “our equals” and maybe steal 1 or 2 against the better teams. If dabs is the guy…and I believe he is …we can get this thing rolling.
Monday night is a big game. That’s a team on our level. At home. Need that dub