I can't believe people are bailing on Schoen & Daboll

He had his best year of his career under Daboll after very little stability. He won a playoff game. A lot of you make it seem like there was no ownership influence and Schoen could have just let him walk and went with someone like Will Levis after a season of promise.

So, I believe things aren't so cut and dry. The organization met in the middle on Jones. I don't think anyone really hitched their wagon to him. They brought him back based on the progress shown while also hedging their bet a bit.

I hate autocorrect.

I think Mara views general manager as a tenure track position and will give Schoen another swing at a head coach.

This is my guess: if the Giants miss the playoffs the next two years, Daboll gets fired and Mara plays a big hand with Schoen on who the replacement is.

but to be fair, the Giants have only won 5 of the last 15 games they've played. That's not a good record.

In comment 16217562 BrettNYG10 said:

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What was the point of signing Jones to a $160 million deal and trading for Waller if we were not going to contend? This was my whole issue with the off-season. It felt like an attempt to compete for a playoff spot again--not to compete for a title.

So you’re idea of rebuilding is letting go of your best offensive player (other than AT) and not acquiring new talent?

direction. However, I am quickly souring on both Kafka and Wink.

In comment 16217854 Scuzzlebutt said:

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In comment 16217562 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: What was the point of signing Jones to a $160 million deal and trading for Waller if we were not going to contend? This was my whole issue with the off-season. It felt like an attempt to compete for a playoff spot again--not to compete for a title. So you’re idea of rebuilding is letting go of your best offensive player (other than AT) and not acquiring new talent?

Barkley is better at his position than Jones.

No, I'd rather franchised him or tried to get him a Geno Smith deal. Paying Jones $40 million a year wss unnecessary, and in my view, unwise.

I don't really think Schoen has earned the benefit of the doubt. I think he did fine year one but he was cap constrained. The early draft returns aren't there yet. So why the confidence in him? I'm not saying he sucks, just that he hasn't done much.

In comment 16217908 BrettNYG10 said:

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I don't really think Schoen has earned the benefit of the doubt. I think he did fine year one but he was cap constrained. The early draft returns aren't there yet. So why the confidence in him? I'm not saying he sucks, just that he hasn't done much.

It's not so much confidence as thinking it's ridiculous that he will be GMing for his job in 2024.

No, I do not think anyone is bailing. Lets talk at the end of next season, if the talent doesn't continue to improve then all bets are off. It is troubling that the Giants as an organization haven't been able to build solid lines on either side of the ball in over a decade, despite significant investment.

I'm not bailing but what exactly has Schoen done well? The receiver group on this team is a joke.

I'm hoping he turns out great but he has yet to prove anything.

So it's set us back for at least 4 games. Instead of coming out of the gate fast we are stumbling which presents all sorts of morale issues and we have 2 -3 major injuries regardless of babying everyone in camp

Looks like we are in preseason games right now.Don’t think they were ready to play when the bell rang to start the season.
Dabs needs to review how training camp should be run next year. Do they need more live contact drills in full pads?? Should be reviewed for sure

Intelligent professionals. But the performance of our 2022 1st rounders and what I believe has been subpar coaching is a worry.

This 10-day window really comes at the right time. A lot needs to be done in the period.

the season but my gut tells me the worst is over.

1. They were NOT ready for game 1 likely due to a "soft" pre-season however that soft pre-season got us to game 1 very healthy. Unfortunately, we lost Thomas and Barkley which has cost us as they are two of our top three offensive players (Jones the top one). Hard to in without your best on the field.

2. I'm concerned about whether Neal and Thibs will develop as the season moves into well above players. It is still early and Seattle will be telling.

3. Daboll has what it takes. You can just sense it, feel it about him. Schoen well we will see how this year's draft pans out but the early returns are good.

4. Giants lost last night yes but we went in on a short week with way less talent and competed. I think if the game was called perhaps more fairly it would have been closer but not a win for us.

Beat Seattle and we are 2-2. Beat Seattle and stay healthy doing it and all sorts of good things will pile up for us.

if not Jones, who does Daboll hitch his wagon to? The options were slim.

I'm guessing the thought was to go with Jones, build a team that isn't embarrassing, er, is competitive, and if Jones doesn't step up, worry about replacing him in a year or two, when options present themselves.

The goal of Giants central, leaving the ring aside, is to have a competitive team for a few years. Going Cinderella/golden is a nice dream, but overall, the Maras want to get the Giants out of the basement. We've sucked, and sucked and sucked. Look at how elated the fans were to just make the playoffs. The one playoff win was gravy. That was the super bowl for a perennial cellar dweller. Mara wants that level to become the baseline. Daboll doesn't have to go far in the playoffs. He just has to get the Giants into competition for making the playoffs.

Again, what alternative was better than Jones, who looked to be a guy who could deliver mediocrity, but maybe more? The pickings were slim. The contract isn't onerous. The wagon was hitched to Jones, but there wasn't anyone else better to hitch up.

The problem is that Jones is going to, baseline, get us around .500. Not good enough to go far. Too good to put us in position to grab the latest hot shot draft QB. But, we've sucked so long, sucking longer would be excruciating.

In comment 16217997 fkap said:

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if not Jones, who does Daboll hitch his wagon to? The options were slim. I'm guessing the thought was to go with Jones, build a team that isn't embarrassing, er, is competitive, and if Jones doesn't step up, worry about replacing him in a year or two, when options present themselves. The goal of Giants central, leaving the ring aside, is to have a competitive team for a few years. Going Cinderella/golden is a nice dream, but overall, the Maras want to get the Giants out of the basement. We've sucked, and sucked and sucked. Look at how elated the fans were to just make the playoffs. The one playoff win was gravy. That was the super bowl for a perennial cellar dweller. Mara wants that level to become the baseline. Daboll doesn't have to go far in the playoffs. He just has to get the Giants into competition for making the playoffs. Again, what alternative was better than Jones, who looked to be a guy who could deliver mediocrity, but maybe more? The pickings were slim. The contract isn't onerous. The wagon was hitched to Jones, but there wasn't anyone else better to hitch up. The problem is that Jones is going to, baseline, get us around .500. Not good enough to go far. Too good to put us in position to grab the latest hot shot draft QB. But, we've sucked so long, sucking longer would be excruciating.

Good post. To put it simply, I think this regime views Jones as Alex Smith in KC. He's the guy until he isn't the guy and then they'll pounce for the guy to take them to the next level.

I really don't think anyone hitched their wagon to Jones.

I did like this past draft, but prioritizing rotational DTs, a 3rd string quality wr in Campbell and an average MLB in Okereke instead of improving the offensive line looks like a glaring mistake. Also, the selections of Thibs and Neal at 5 and 7 are beginning to look extremely questionable. We could have had Garret Wilson and a better tackle like Iku or traded down for a haul of picks.

In the same draft, which is a possibility right now, is not the talent evaluation you want.

Schoen and Daboll into this discussion because it's the quality of play thus far. It's been alarming. 

I'm not suggesting we have reached a point where we should break the glass due to an emergency. But we should certainly start to become aware where those devices are...

Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones.

Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year?

If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone.

Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself.

If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

I'd fire Schoen after the season and hand the keys to Adam Peters of SF, who I wanted instead of Schoen, and let Peters decide if he wants to keep Daboll.

In comment 16218023 christian said:

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Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones. Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year? If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone. Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself. If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

I think they could survive two five to seven win seasons and get a chance with 'their' QB--I'm just not sure if they should.

Also--to be abundantly clear--all this is obviously getting way ahead of ourselves. We have 14 more games to play.

I just think people got way ahead of themselves in their faith with Schoen, who is obviously an upgrade over the moron Gettleman.

In comment 16218023 christian said:

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Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones. Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year? If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone. Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself. If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

Jones certainly isn't surviving another HC change but I believe BD would survive a QB change.

JS gets at least 4 years

To me last week about game threads; why are you surprised. Some fans just have idiotic takes , and there are way more here than there used to be

But Schoen....it's not unreasonable to be alarmed.

2 full offseasons, drafts, trading periods and FA periods and frankly they're not getting much contribution from any move he has made.

I think Daboll has a longer leash than Jones. If he doesn't, Jones would have essentially killed off three coaches (Shurmur, Judge & Daboll) and four if you include Garrett.

I think if there isn't significant improvement with offensive production against the better teams, Schoen/Daboll will look heavily into QB in the 23/24 drafts.

This has become typical reaction for some on this site. We go from having a team with very little talent and winning a playoff game to being upset over losing to the 2 best teams in the NFC. Mistakes have been made over the past 8 years and the team needs talent. It is not ideal to be paying $40 M to Jones but ownership is trying to rebuild and put a decent product on the field.

In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said:

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I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year.

One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

In comment 16218167 BlackLight said:

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In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

Such a great post BlackLight. You articulated that better than I could have.

unless they have a replacement. It's what they do with the replacement that will determine if they survive. They'll get a year or two free pass while developing a rookie, but if the rookie bombs, Daboll is gone.

Obviously if Jones does well, everyone is happy.

A nightmare scenario is if Jones does well enough to have lousy draft position and it costs a fortune to move up to get a hot prospect.

We've been lousy for so long that mediocre records will keep us happy for a couple of years. We've been lousy for so long that tanking a season will be disastrous for the fan support/relations. But if Mara signs off on a tank, Daboll/Schoen will survive it. Intentional losing is acceptable to management. Try to win and failing is not.

In comment 16218167 BlackLight said:

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In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

I never jumped on the bandwagon, essentially I have been questioning them from the start. Last year was one year of results.

In comment 16218200 ChrisRick said:

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In comment 16218167 BlackLight said: Quote: In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them? I never jumped on the bandwagon, essentially I have been questioning them from the start. Last year was one year of results.

You called last year's playoff run "awesome." There were only three outcomes to last season that would've been objectively better than the one we eventually got, so I think it's now fair to question just what would meet your definition of success.

Non-negotiable barring serious personal issues.

In comment 16217635 Hilary said:

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It is not unfair to complain They did very poorly in the 2022 draft with 11 picks 2 in top 10 Glowinski not a good signing2022 2023 off season focused on receivers and other than JMS ignored O line Jones very under valued on this board 2023 draft better with JS having more of his people in place

Not only not unfair, but, adding in no free agency results, plainly disappointing. Do they know what they are doing?

Hug's and kisses, Roman Marroni

...aren't cutting Jones, because he ain't the problem.
Geeez....

I don't think so. We added free agents and draft picks. Year two in the offense and defense schemes. Same coaches.

And yet based on the play to date i do not see a better team.

People say on paper we are better. That is pointless. Its how you play on the field that counts.

We arent getting it done on the field.

This team was not ready to start the season. That is on Dabol. Soft preseason soft start to season.

In comment 16218215 BlackLight said:

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In comment 16218200 ChrisRick said: Quote: In comment 16218167 BlackLight said: Quote: In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them? I never jumped on the bandwagon, essentially I have been questioning them from the start. Last year was one year of results. You called last year's playoff run "awesome." There were only three outcomes to last season that would've been objectively better than the one we eventually got, so I think it's now fair to question just what would meet your definition of success.

They had a successful first season, one season. That is all it took for you to be onboard, I am holding out a bit longer.

Running the Ball
Throwing the Ball
Stopping the run
Stopping the pass

Which one can you say we are good at? Hell, even average at?

Yes there are varying degrees of success which affect the amount of support something receives. In this case Schoen and Daboll took a roster that most would agree was not a good roster and accomplished a playoff birth with a road win, which was impressive (awesome). That was enough for some fans to complete their own evaluation process to accept Schoen and Daboll as the gm and coach that would finally end the revolving door at those two positions. Some fans want to see more before we sign off on them.

How much success would have been enough after only one season for me? Well that depends, I really do not like using a single season to sign up for the future.

It is not like I am saying the Giants should move on from them which would be quite hasty. Some fans just want to see more before we are confident in what we have. The good thing is that since I am just a fan I don’t have to worry about making a decision like the owner of the team would. I can afford to wait longer before I decide even when other fans think that is a brutal decision way of thinking.

in his first two years - this offseason will be his first chance to dramatically improve the roster in free agency + the draft, and I think he’ll rise to the occasion.

He acknowledged the Waller trade was a hedge against the lack of #1 WRs in free agency and draft (by the late first round) - I suspect they’ll pounce on one this offseason. A #1 WR (Higgins? Evans? Draft?), edge rusher and OL will go a long way toward raising the ceiling of this team.

and yes it's incredibly early, but a 3rd for Waller seems to be a massive overpay. I didn't see him a lot when he was with the Raiders but from what I was hearing from fans on this board I was expecting a lot more than I've seen.And maybe he's having hamstring issues but isn't that why they were trading him in the first place?

Goal should be 5-4 before Dallas.

In comment 16218362 ryanmkeane said:

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Goal should be 5-4 before Dallas.

At this rate - 5 wins for the season should be the goal.

Should go look at the Niners bottoming out i believe in Shanahan's 2nd or 3rd year and the Niners just stayed the course, Giants need to do the same if they bottom out, you dont panic at the first sign of adversity

In comment 16218688 nygiants16 said:

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Should go look at the Niners bottoming out i believe in Shanahan's 2nd or 3rd year and the Niners just stayed the course, Giants need to do the same if they bottom out, you dont panic at the first sign of adversity

I don't disagree with your point but their starting QB suffered a season ending injury in week three of the second year (when they went 4-12).

Conversely, the Giants held onto Gettleman for four whole years when I thought it was pretty clear from the get go he was a disaster.

Each situation is different. Daboll had a masterful first year, I'm very high on him. I think Schoen is much more TBD--partly due to the GM needing more time to marinate, partly due to him being cap constrained the past couple off-seasons. I think the jury will remain out on him for at least another year or two.

In comment 16218688 nygiants16 said:

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Should go look at the Niners bottoming out i believe in Shanahan's 2nd or 3rd year and the Niners just stayed the course, Giants need to do the same if they bottom out, you dont panic at the first sign of adversity

Great post. A lot of people forget how poor some of those Shanahan/Lynch seasons were.

Again who is really bailing on Schoen and Daboll? Sure there are few select crazies, but I don’t see any rational fan saying they are done. It seems to really bother some fans that not all of us jumped on the bandwagon after last season.