I can't believe people are bailing on Schoen & Daboll

how can you even bail on a coach and GM?

what does that really even mean?

I just didn’t hop on the bandwagon so quick.

people know doing so is crazy.

In comment 16217717 RicFlair said:

Quote:

I just didn’t hop on the bandwagon so quick.

This

But I hope your not expecting a ton of patience,especially when the Giants sell nothing but positivity in the off season.

In comment 16217609 ChrisRick said:

Quote:

In comment 16217596 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. No, it is not fair. Most predicted the NYG would win 5 games or less in 2022. They won a playoff game on the road against a 13-4 team. We are 1-2 losing to two of the best teams in the NFL. The deserve a little support in my opinion. To each their own. Perhaps you accepted them last as the answer after one year of success. I chose not to because it did not really prove anything. The league is littered with one year success stories that did not amount to anything.

What was the overwhelming opinion about the NYG roster at the start of 2022?

Can we agree they exceeded expectations in 2022?

We are only 3 games into 2023 and have played 2 of the best rosters in the NFL. We know our starters did not play much in the preseason.

I am not suggesting you anoint them as the truth.

I am suggesting after 11-10-1 resume, knowing what they inherited, they deserve a little support.

For me, that playoff win, was unexpected and joyous. I have watched a decade of shit football. Last year was better. They earned another year of support IMHO.

Am I able to support them while acknowledging that ‘one year is one year’?

2022 roster was not a good roster, but maybe it was not as bad as we thought. Maybe players got better, perhaps not having terrible coaches makes a significant difference.

In comment 16217601 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16217592 The_Boss said: Quote: In comment 16217585 Paulie Walnuts said: Quote: This is a long term situation Would you feel the same if we go 5-12 this year and follow it up with 7-10 next year? Schoen and Daboll get to draft their own QB. Clock starts then for me.

Here's the problem though, if that worst case 5-12 and 7-10 scenario happens, Schoen and Daboll will be on a stressed timeline with the next QB. We know that rookie QBs don't generally win, so then we're hoping for a 5th year for things to turn around. I think Mara will want to be more patient this time around but I'm not sure 5 years will be on the table.

Schoen/Daboll used their 1st-year goodwill to commit to Jones; that's fine, but that also means they won't get much time to turn it around with the next QB if this goes south.

They should be measured on progress, not necessarily on wins.
Last year's team improved as the season went on. Breaking down individual players, you would hope to see a jump in the second year of a regime. Young players selected from the last 2 drafts, growing into the core of what would eventually be, a contending team.

In every measurable sense, this team has regressed. Individual players have regressed, NO ONE is stepping forward, they also seem to be out coached through 3 weeks.

Those are not good signs that are acceptable.
As some have said, getting blown out by the top teams is not acceptable. Getting beat by them, at this point, is.

They were so far out played by Dallas and SF that it HAS to be concerning. Leashes are shorter and shorter in the league now, turnarounds, relatively quickly, happen fairly often.
If the arrow is pointing up at the end of this season, regardless of the win total, then everything is fine.

But if entire draft classes look like busts, and all 3 units on the team look like they can't get out of their own way and are non-competitive, than that HAS to be looked at as a major red flag. The clock IS ticking.

But bailing? Naw haven't seen that. I think both are very well liked at this point.

out on before this season.

They made a major bet on the Jones / Barkley offense. And one thing I kept on saying in the offseason was that it was was unlikely that both of these players would stay healthy for the whole season and that made it pretty risky.

That came true pretty fast. I did not think Jones could succeed in this offense without Barkley and that RPO threat and that was one of my big reservations with the contract he got.

There's no chance of Eli Manning crying in the locker room, so practically the playoff appearance last year will get Daboll a 3rd year.

This year is house money for him. Next year is when he is on notice.

Personally, I wouldn't have hitched my career to Jones, but he did.

I think on paper it sounds like you have options if the team can part ways with Jones after two years. But nothing in that agreement says Daboll won't go with him.

In comment 16217780 Dave on the UWS said:

Quote:

They should be measured on progress, not necessarily on wins. Last year's team improved as the season went on. Breaking down individual players, you would hope to see a jump in the second year of a regime. Young players selected from the last 2 drafts, growing into the core of what would eventually be, a contending team. In every measurable sense, this team has regressed. Individual players have regressed, NO ONE is stepping forward, they also seem to be out coached through 3 weeks. Those are not good signs that are acceptable. As some have said, getting blown out by the top teams is not acceptable. Getting beat by them, at this point, is. They were so far out played by Dallas and SF that it HAS to be concerning. Leashes are shorter and shorter in the league now, turnarounds, relatively quickly, happen fairly often. If the arrow is pointing up at the end of this season, regardless of the win total, then everything is fine. But if entire draft classes look like busts, and all 3 units on the team look like they can't get out of their own way and are non-competitive, than that HAS to be looked at as a major red flag. The clock IS ticking.

Not sure I would say last year's team improved as the season went on. We started 6-1 and then only won 3 of our last 10

last year was a breath of fresh air. Expectations of the vocal posters was way too high. Thus, when reality sets in that this is a middle of the road (at best) team, it is hard to take.

But, there does seem to be a poor reality on OL, which, so far, has not been settled. We've got AT, maybe a center (we've gone down the road of getting excited about rookies who show a little, then fail to deliver, too many times), and then little to nothing at guard, and a meh core piece in Neal.

We've got last, and this, years draftees, and this year's FA class in a rebuild of a poor team. That isn't enough to put us in the big league. Last year's showing made too many people think that Gettleman left us a somewhat halfway decent team which Daboll properly coached. There was some spark of truth to that, but not nearly as much as people delusionally thought.

People who are too irrational in trashing Daboll/Schoen are also irrational on Jones. They thought that because he got a decent (not top notch) deal, he was a top notch QB. He hasn't shown that, yet. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, but the reality is that he was the best of slim pickings to keep us anywhere near competitive for a couple years. IF we suck, maybe we'll be in range of being able to draft a true top notch QB. But, it was just our luck to be bad, and have high draft picks, in years that the college draft class was thin at QB. IF we suck, hopefully that luck will change. Maybe Jones will develop into a near top notch QB. It won't matter if the talent around him is meh, and if the OC/play calling is meh.

Bottom line is that too many people were so in awe of Daboll/Schoen that reality is a hard pill to swallow. But, jeez, ya gotta at least let the year play out before abandoning ship.

I recall a lot of people wanted to be done with TC. There's a lot of football left.

Interesting tidbit- we played the AFC East in both of those years.

In comment 16217802 christian said:

Quote:

There's no chance of Eli Manning crying in the locker room, so practically the playoff appearance last year will get Daboll a 3rd year. This year is house money for him. Next year is when he is on notice. Personally, I wouldn't have hitched my career to Jones, but he did. I think on paper it sounds like you have options if the team can part ways with Jones after two years. But nothing in that agreement says Daboll won't go with him.

What about Schoen?

He had his best year of his career under Daboll after very little stability. He won a playoff game. A lot of you make it seem like there was no ownership influence and Schoen could have just let him walk and went with someone like Will Levis after a season of promise.

So, I believe things aren't so cut and dry. The organization met in the middle on Jones. I don't think anyone really hitched their wagon to him. They brought him back based on the progress shown while also hedging their bet a bit.

I hate autocorrect.

I think Mara views general manager as a tenure track position and will give Schoen another swing at a head coach.

This is my guess: if the Giants miss the playoffs the next two years, Daboll gets fired and Mara plays a big hand with Schoen on who the replacement is.

but to be fair, the Giants have only won 5 of the last 15 games they've played. That's not a good record.

In comment 16217562 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

What was the point of signing Jones to a $160 million deal and trading for Waller if we were not going to contend? This was my whole issue with the off-season. It felt like an attempt to compete for a playoff spot again--not to compete for a title.

So you’re idea of rebuilding is letting go of your best offensive player (other than AT) and not acquiring new talent?

direction. However, I am quickly souring on both Kafka and Wink.

In comment 16217854 Scuzzlebutt said:

Quote:

In comment 16217562 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: What was the point of signing Jones to a $160 million deal and trading for Waller if we were not going to contend? This was my whole issue with the off-season. It felt like an attempt to compete for a playoff spot again--not to compete for a title. So you’re idea of rebuilding is letting go of your best offensive player (other than AT) and not acquiring new talent?

Barkley is better at his position than Jones.

No, I'd rather franchised him or tried to get him a Geno Smith deal. Paying Jones $40 million a year wss unnecessary, and in my view, unwise.

I don't really think Schoen has earned the benefit of the doubt. I think he did fine year one but he was cap constrained. The early draft returns aren't there yet. So why the confidence in him? I'm not saying he sucks, just that he hasn't done much.

In comment 16217908 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

I don't really think Schoen has earned the benefit of the doubt. I think he did fine year one but he was cap constrained. The early draft returns aren't there yet. So why the confidence in him? I'm not saying he sucks, just that he hasn't done much.

It's not so much confidence as thinking it's ridiculous that he will be GMing for his job in 2024.

No, I do not think anyone is bailing. Lets talk at the end of next season, if the talent doesn't continue to improve then all bets are off. It is troubling that the Giants as an organization haven't been able to build solid lines on either side of the ball in over a decade, despite significant investment.

I'm not bailing but what exactly has Schoen done well? The receiver group on this team is a joke.

I'm hoping he turns out great but he has yet to prove anything.

So it's set us back for at least 4 games. Instead of coming out of the gate fast we are stumbling which presents all sorts of morale issues and we have 2 -3 major injuries regardless of babying everyone in camp

Looks like we are in preseason games right now.Don’t think they were ready to play when the bell rang to start the season.
Dabs needs to review how training camp should be run next year. Do they need more live contact drills in full pads?? Should be reviewed for sure

Intelligent professionals. But the performance of our 2022 1st rounders and what I believe has been subpar coaching is a worry.

This 10-day window really comes at the right time. A lot needs to be done in the period.

the season but my gut tells me the worst is over.

1. They were NOT ready for game 1 likely due to a "soft" pre-season however that soft pre-season got us to game 1 very healthy. Unfortunately, we lost Thomas and Barkley which has cost us as they are two of our top three offensive players (Jones the top one). Hard to in without your best on the field.

2. I'm concerned about whether Neal and Thibs will develop as the season moves into well above players. It is still early and Seattle will be telling.

3. Daboll has what it takes. You can just sense it, feel it about him. Schoen well we will see how this year's draft pans out but the early returns are good.

4. Giants lost last night yes but we went in on a short week with way less talent and competed. I think if the game was called perhaps more fairly it would have been closer but not a win for us.

Beat Seattle and we are 2-2. Beat Seattle and stay healthy doing it and all sorts of good things will pile up for us.

if not Jones, who does Daboll hitch his wagon to? The options were slim.

I'm guessing the thought was to go with Jones, build a team that isn't embarrassing, er, is competitive, and if Jones doesn't step up, worry about replacing him in a year or two, when options present themselves.

The goal of Giants central, leaving the ring aside, is to have a competitive team for a few years. Going Cinderella/golden is a nice dream, but overall, the Maras want to get the Giants out of the basement. We've sucked, and sucked and sucked. Look at how elated the fans were to just make the playoffs. The one playoff win was gravy. That was the super bowl for a perennial cellar dweller. Mara wants that level to become the baseline. Daboll doesn't have to go far in the playoffs. He just has to get the Giants into competition for making the playoffs.

Again, what alternative was better than Jones, who looked to be a guy who could deliver mediocrity, but maybe more? The pickings were slim. The contract isn't onerous. The wagon was hitched to Jones, but there wasn't anyone else better to hitch up.

The problem is that Jones is going to, baseline, get us around .500. Not good enough to go far. Too good to put us in position to grab the latest hot shot draft QB. But, we've sucked so long, sucking longer would be excruciating.

In comment 16217997 fkap said:

Quote:

if not Jones, who does Daboll hitch his wagon to? The options were slim. I'm guessing the thought was to go with Jones, build a team that isn't embarrassing, er, is competitive, and if Jones doesn't step up, worry about replacing him in a year or two, when options present themselves. The goal of Giants central, leaving the ring aside, is to have a competitive team for a few years. Going Cinderella/golden is a nice dream, but overall, the Maras want to get the Giants out of the basement. We've sucked, and sucked and sucked. Look at how elated the fans were to just make the playoffs. The one playoff win was gravy. That was the super bowl for a perennial cellar dweller. Mara wants that level to become the baseline. Daboll doesn't have to go far in the playoffs. He just has to get the Giants into competition for making the playoffs. Again, what alternative was better than Jones, who looked to be a guy who could deliver mediocrity, but maybe more? The pickings were slim. The contract isn't onerous. The wagon was hitched to Jones, but there wasn't anyone else better to hitch up. The problem is that Jones is going to, baseline, get us around .500. Not good enough to go far. Too good to put us in position to grab the latest hot shot draft QB. But, we've sucked so long, sucking longer would be excruciating.

Good post. To put it simply, I think this regime views Jones as Alex Smith in KC. He's the guy until he isn't the guy and then they'll pounce for the guy to take them to the next level.

I really don't think anyone hitched their wagon to Jones.

I did like this past draft, but prioritizing rotational DTs, a 3rd string quality wr in Campbell and an average MLB in Okereke instead of improving the offensive line looks like a glaring mistake. Also, the selections of Thibs and Neal at 5 and 7 are beginning to look extremely questionable. We could have had Garret Wilson and a better tackle like Iku or traded down for a haul of picks.

In the same draft, which is a possibility right now, is not the talent evaluation you want.

Schoen and Daboll into this discussion because it's the quality of play thus far. It's been alarming. 

I'm not suggesting we have reached a point where we should break the glass due to an emergency. But we should certainly start to become aware where those devices are...

Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones.

Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year?

If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone.

Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself.

If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

I'd fire Schoen after the season and hand the keys to Adam Peters of SF, who I wanted instead of Schoen, and let Peters decide if he wants to keep Daboll.

In comment 16218023 christian said:

Quote:

Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones. Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year? If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone. Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself. If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

I think they could survive two five to seven win seasons and get a chance with 'their' QB--I'm just not sure if they should.

Also--to be abundantly clear--all this is obviously getting way ahead of ourselves. We have 14 more games to play.

I just think people got way ahead of themselves in their faith with Schoen, who is obviously an upgrade over the moron Gettleman.

In comment 16218023 christian said:

Quote:

Sean, Fkap -- all of that presumes Daboll would survive a scenario where they cut ties with Jones. Do you really think Daboll is still the head coach in a situation where the Giants cut or trade Daniel Jones after next year? If they pull out from Jones after 23/24 that means it's turned into a wreck and they are rebooting. If things get that bad, Daboll is gone. Reid ran with Smith for 5 winning seasons and 4 playoffs births. They won 50+ games in that stretch. He hitched his wagon for a nice run and upgraded when the opportunity presented itself. If Jones wins 40+ games over the next 4 years and gets to the tournament 3 times, and they upgrade, that's cool.

Jones certainly isn't surviving another HC change but I believe BD would survive a QB change.

JS gets at least 4 years

To me last week about game threads; why are you surprised. Some fans just have idiotic takes , and there are way more here than there used to be

But Schoen....it's not unreasonable to be alarmed.

2 full offseasons, drafts, trading periods and FA periods and frankly they're not getting much contribution from any move he has made.

I think Daboll has a longer leash than Jones. If he doesn't, Jones would have essentially killed off three coaches (Shurmur, Judge & Daboll) and four if you include Garrett.

I think if there isn't significant improvement with offensive production against the better teams, Schoen/Daboll will look heavily into QB in the 23/24 drafts.

This has become typical reaction for some on this site. We go from having a team with very little talent and winning a playoff game to being upset over losing to the 2 best teams in the NFC. Mistakes have been made over the past 8 years and the team needs talent. It is not ideal to be paying $40 M to Jones but ownership is trying to rebuild and put a decent product on the field.

In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said:

Quote:

I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year.

One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

In comment 16218167 BlackLight said:

Quote:

In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

Such a great post BlackLight. You articulated that better than I could have.

unless they have a replacement. It's what they do with the replacement that will determine if they survive. They'll get a year or two free pass while developing a rookie, but if the rookie bombs, Daboll is gone.

Obviously if Jones does well, everyone is happy.

A nightmare scenario is if Jones does well enough to have lousy draft position and it costs a fortune to move up to get a hot prospect.

We've been lousy for so long that mediocre records will keep us happy for a couple of years. We've been lousy for so long that tanking a season will be disastrous for the fan support/relations. But if Mara signs off on a tank, Daboll/Schoen will survive it. Intentional losing is acceptable to management. Try to win and failing is not.

In comment 16218167 BlackLight said:

Quote:

In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them?

I never jumped on the bandwagon, essentially I have been questioning them from the start. Last year was one year of results.

In comment 16218200 ChrisRick said:

Quote:

In comment 16218167 BlackLight said: Quote: In comment 16217563 ChrisRick said: Quote: I am not bailing but it is fair to question if they are the right ones for the job. The playoff run last year was awesome, but it was one year. One good year isn't enough to tell if they're right for the job, but two bad weeks means it's fair to start questioning them? I never jumped on the bandwagon, essentially I have been questioning them from the start. Last year was one year of results.

You called last year's playoff run "awesome." There were only three outcomes to last season that would've been objectively better than the one we eventually got, so I think it's now fair to question just what would meet your definition of success.