I don't see the guy on the Giants that screams "follow me" and the team does.
Where is the one guy with the physical ability and mental toughness on the Giants to be that Leader.
Dex is the closest thing but we really need that stud linebacker who can take over a game.
Yea looked like they had no leadership down 3 TDs last week...
Some of you latch on to the stupidest shit.
They got outplayed by an infinitely better team.
Beautifully succinct and dead on: "They got outplayed by an infinitely better team."
Being more wordy myself, I'd tack on: with a patchwork close-to-all-rookie OL, 2 of their best hurt, and on the road with terribly adverse scheduling and timing.
RE: RE: Week 4 will determine where we are going this year
Seattle at home coming off lots of rest is a formula for us to come out ready and execute,or ELSE!!
Wink's defense has taken a step back considering we are in the 2nd year of the system. Part of it is an easy camp but part of it may just be that his style has been reviewed and figured out and he hasn't adjusted? Missed tackles are a bad bad sign.
The Giants OL is well not ready for prime time. Young. Inexperienced. But you have to hope there is upside and future especially with Neal, Schmitt and Ezedeu. If Neal remains "average at best" it hurts badly. Perhaps next year we see Thomas-ROOKIE#1-Schmitt-Neal-Ezedeu or something like that? McKethan a backup. Peart and Glowinski gone.
Finally, I haven't seen enough from Thibs to be sure but by now with his physical abilities you'd think he'd have more positive plays.
I believe in Daboll as a HC. I believe in Wink and think with 10 days they will make some adjustments.
If Thomas and Barkley are ready along with Ojulari on defense we should be competitive IF the coaches get the players to buy in and adjust to what they are good at.
9 - 8 is still possible. A wildcard is still possible. It is a long, long season and injuries hit so stay healthy and just beat Seattle without attrition and all will be well.
The second year of the system is nice, but the more important thing is talent level. We signed 3 key free agents who, prior to Dallas, will have practiced for real in it less than 16 times. Simmons and Basham less than half of that.
We have 2 rookie CBs. Again, 16 practices pre-Dallas at most. To both learn the system and get welcomed to the NFL.
Since Dallas the entire D will have practiced twice at most.
It's just too early to draw really any conclusions about the defense other than there's more work to do. And -- health aside because that's always a wild card -- you'd expect them to significantly improve each week. They need the game film and experience as a unit. Remember there's only one real practice a week (until late season when the may be none).
The defense requires synchronicity. Same with the OL. Both take reps.
Without a doubt, lack of true practice time hurts development and synchronicity. This team will be well rested and hopefully ready for Seattle.
If the missed tackles are cut in less than half; if the pass rush picks up with Ojulari back and Thibs turning it on (a big if...); and, the OL can at least develop more cohesion with Thomas back we should compete on Monday night.
Get the win and continue to learn and gel for the stretch run. 3 - 4 is a strong possibility but 1 - 6 during tough stretch would be hard to overcome for the playoffs.
I don’t know when it became such an extreme viewpoint to want a QB that you talk about as able to raise the circumstances around them not be a victim of it.
But I do know that it seems crazy to pay everyone like you expect a contender lay 2 eggs against your direct competitors in that and then want to attack people who would like more out of a QB than that.
RE: So when does Eric start a thread chastising Sy for piling on Thibs?
DJ is a threat, but not used. The backup RBs aren't great, but not used even to 'keep the defense honest'. No use of Hyatt to spread the defense out.
Jones is what he is: better than the alternatives that have been available, but not good enough. Absolutely, IF we're picking in the top half of the draft (which is likely, IMO) and we can maneuver to get a top QB prospect, that's the move to take. Continued play as we've seen it from DJ confirms this. Obviously, if he ups his game, this changes, but I'd place my bet on more of the same.
I don't see how Barkley and AT healthy get this team to 10-11 games, when so many other aspects of the team are not doing well. A lot of the team has to step up to the plate to get this team to winning half the 'easy' games. Way more than half the 'tough' games will be losses even with halfway decent play from the team. I'm guessing a 5-7 W window unless the Plan starts to come together. B and AT aren't the difference between being competitive and what we've been seeing.
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
Priceless....cause you know 3 of this years picks are not only starting but have been some of our better players. Why the F not all of them? And why the F isn't Isaiah Simmons Micah Parsons? And for that matter how come Schoen couldn't get Dallas to trade Parsons to us for a 6th. And why the F aren't his free agent signings already being voted All-Pro?
Christ, he can't even stop our franchise LT from getting hurt.
Fire that loser!
We all expected them to be 1-2 right now, SF and Dallas
I don't know if it's been the decade of Reese and Gettleman and all of the various coaches. I don't know if it is the 24-hour news cycle. I don't know if it is social media. I don't know if it is the state of sports journalism.... but arguments like the one you just made don't hold water with fans anymore.
There is absolutely no patience or perspective.
The Giants have the second-youngest team in the NFL and I doubt there is a team with a younger and more inexperienced offensive line.
It's essentially impossible to have a less experienced line than the Giants had against SF. You'd have to start 5 rookies.
You are spot on about the qb! Daniel Jones is a very good qb, if anyone thinks that drafting a qb and putting him behind this oline and thinks he can win is just plain stupid!
RE: RE: RE: I can’t be drawing many conclusions about this team
We’re fielding the youngest starting roster in the league and I think by a pretty wide margin. We began the year playing two of the league’s powerhouse franchises. We’re already seen five different OL combinations on the field and only two spots where the same player has played every snap. Overall we have something like ten new starters. It says something when you’re looking forward to playing teams only as good as the Seahawks, Dolphins and Bills. I’m no more patient than most but this is not the time for proclamations about the future.
As to the different OL combinations, I think it's irrelevant. We have 2 good players, AT and JMS. All of the other guys are mediocre at best, doesn't matter where you put them. It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Right, and AT hasn’t played in two weeks so we’re replacing our best OL in the most important position with a backup guard. And Bredeson was better than Ezeudu, McKethan and Neal and he’s been gone as well. Anything but irrelevant.
I already gave props to AT. My comment regards the 2 guard positions and RT. If you think Bredeson is going to be some kind of savior, or even major upgrade, we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, he's the best of the bunch, but he's still not much
the only players deserving plaudits are McFadden, with his best game as a pro (need to see more of that)...and Gano with a 57 yard bomb of a field goal. That's all there was to see here...om to Seattle.
RE: RE: Week 4 will determine where we are going this year
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
No, that wasn’t said. But, tell me which draft pick excites you right now? If they continue to play like complete garbage, who deserves blame?
You did not say that but have seen it start to be thrown around lately.
Excited about Banks, JMS, Hyatt, Hawkins and Riley. They are 3 games in, maybe give them a couple more games before calling them garbage?
As far as Thibs and Neal, It's up to them to play better. Someone else would of drafted them shortly after us if we did not. It's not like they were reaches for Schoen.
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
Elephant in the room. This team is stuck in a perpetual loop of mediocrity unless they start totally knocking their drafts out of the park. This roster is young, but not necessarily good and it lacks depth.
This has me more pessimistic than anything else regarding the overall state of the Giants. The young talent needs to ascend and right now if anything I seem regression.
I'm not close to being out on this regime, just stating this roster isn't close to competing.
The best thing I heard during the game, and more than once, was how high he was kicking the ball. Iirc, his big problem last year was kicking too long and low, outkicking his coverage. If he's solved that, it's a big step forward.
Agreed. I would’ve swapped our Scottish players for the studs. Gano had that one great kick but the Hammer had 6 excellent punts that kept us in the field position battle.
Probably your answer will be "it is just part of the game", but what did you think of all the holding(blatant, not small cloth) that the 49er line got away with. Thought this was a terribly officiated game. Trent Williams and Spencer Buford seemed to be grabbing every pass play and Juszczyk bear hugged Okereke in the hole on McCaffery's 1st big run. I just don't see how officials at this level miss a hold like that.
Yes the Giants were outplayed, but a few clutch and grabs that are ignored are sufficient to change the tenor of the game.
I agree on the Thibs illegal contact was weak. By rule Williams roughing the passer was correct. I just do not see how a 320 lber can change direction on a bang-bang play. It was a text book form tackle. Tough shit, QBs are football players too.
RE: RE: RE: Week 4 will determine where we are going this year
The defense requires synchronicity. Same with the OL. Both take reps.
So far there's been no problem with the defense getting enough reps :)
I know it's tongue in cheek, but seriously -- Games 1-3 are a coaching film gift. We learn by mistakes, and they packed a season's worth into 3 games. The OL especially, after facing Dallas and SF.
Hard to pass judgment on Jones and the offense due to injuries and the continued incompetence of the OL. But the defense which was not good last year has taken several steps backward. Wink’s system was not working his last season in Baltimore and it didn’t work last year. Thought was that a talent upgrade was necessary and supposedly that has happened. Yet the defense is worse—so far.
Let’s turn the attention to Defensive Coordinator Wink Martindale. It is hard to fully diagnose what is going on, but the results are scary. 98 points allowed in 3 games (let’s take off 14 for the special teams + defensive TDs from week 1). So, 84 points allowed. Sixth worst in yards per play allowed. Last in turnovers. Fourth most in yards per pass allowed. 14th most yards per rush allowed. Second worst in pressure percentage. Sixth most missed tackles. Seventh worst on third down. The personnel was upgraded. There are 7 returning starters. And everything has gone backwards. Has the league figured out Martindale? It is something that needs to be considered.
That's a pretty alarming, but reasonable take on the defense so far this season.
Maybe this year will be the reverse of last season
And they will put a big run together at the end of the season.
We could be sitting at 1 - 5 if we don't fix the OL; lack of tackling & pressure & turnovers by the defense; and, lack of ace playmaker on offense if in fact Waller's age & injuries have chipped away his physical skills.
On here. Truth is, you can argue that the line is full of inexperience, the team is young, and any other myriad excuses you want but... that only highlights the very issue. It all reflects on how well put together the team is and competitive it looks after significant investments.
please don’t bring that lame ass “copium” phrase here. It already sucks on Reddit
RE: RE: Maybe this year will be the reverse of last season
And they will put a big run together at the end of the season.
We could be sitting at 1 - 5 if we don't fix the OL;
This stretch of games to open the year was going to be extremely challenging a month ago when no one was concerned about the OL.
They've lost to teams they should have lost to and beat a team they should have beat. Seattle is a much more interesting game than Dallas or San Fran. You will learn a lot about the 2023 Giants when they don't play a bottom feeder or a possible super bowl team.
I think they could go 2-5, and then they'll get games against Washington twice, Vegas, New England, and Green Bay, which are teams on or near their level.
And they will put a big run together at the end of the season.
We could be sitting at 1 - 5 if we don't fix the OL;
This stretch of games to open the year was going to be extremely challenging a month ago when no one was concerned about the OL.
They've lost to teams they should have lost to and beat a team they should have beat. Seattle is a much more interesting game than Dallas or San Fran. You will learn a lot about the 2023 Giants when they don't play a bottom feeder or a possible super bowl team.
I think they could go 2-5, and then they'll get games against Washington twice, Vegas, New England, and Green Bay, which are teams on or near their level.
Agreed. My thing about the possibility of beating Seattle @ home on national TV is that we should finally be healthy. Maybe not Barkley but I'd think both Thomas and Ojulari should be ready to go.
The coaches now have enough film to figure it out I'd think and make adjustments. I can see this team establishing itself with a victory on Monday night and then on a short week perhaps we struggle but at least we get to 2 - 2 and show well.
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
But any review of the offense that doesn't start, focus nearly 100 percent on, and end with the fact that was probably the least experienced offensive line to ever start a game in the NFL just isn't worth the time.
Peart was the experienced veteran leader of our oline Thurs.
Peart and LeMieux have the most time with the Giants (and LeMieux has more game experience), but Neal (with less than a full season of games) was the lineman with the most NFL game experience on the team Thursday. Think about that. Not one member of that O line has a year of game experience.
You articulate very well what I think about Jones. At some point he needs to make some plays when things are not working around him. It seems like he never does against good competition. Yes, he stands tall in the pocket and deals with way less than ideal situations, but I'd still like him to make a big play against a superior opponent. He just doesn't. 1-11 in prime time and he hasn't beaten Dallas or Philly since the 2020 season where both teams weren't near the level they are now.
Are his conditions around him perfect? Nowhere near that. BUT, when NYG committed to Jones financially I expected him to still make some plays when things aren't perfect around him.
He gets confident and turns it on against inferior defenses. In recent memory, his best games were against the Vikings 2x, Colts and Cardinals. The offense was non existent against Philly, Dallas and SF.
It just feels like Jones is really good against bad defenses. Things will never be perfect around him , especially against the top tier teams.
Unfortunately, I think Sy said it best. "Daniel Jones just......is."
I like Daniel jones. I do. I want to see him work out here.I don't think it was wrong to resign him. I also don't think it was a bad move to leave an out after 2024. I mean, we've seen him save games,lead comebacks, and show some leadership. He needs to do better though.Sometimes he is a difference maker, and sometimes he isn't. He's safe this year and next. After that if they have a better line and better recievers, he'd be passable, but if not there may come a point where we have to move on.
56 mil in cap space next year, thereabouts, right in the middle of the league as far as that goes, enough to operate on but looks like what we have is gonna be basically the same next year, I really hope these guys get their shit together, and that includes the coaching and playcalling. And the QB play. Not condemning the guy but he needs to start making some clutch plays that lead to wins. He can, he's done it, but we need more if he wants to be secure here.
He just looks too hesitant and his routes to the QB often times look like he’s stuck between doing what he’s told to do and his instincts. I’m leaning more towards that the scheme is asking Thibs to do things that aren’t in his skillset too often
That may be true, but if all he is is a situational pass rusher( which is what it's starting to look like) then maybe he shouldn't have been drafted where he was. He looks lazy to me. Not hungry, not a leader. No dog, all show. He needs more than just experience to be any kind of difference maker, and I don't know he has it in him. Not gonna say bust yet, but I'd bet he doesn't get a second contract here.
The Cardinals first half as a residual of the Cowboy game is nonsense and a cop out. The Cardinals are the worst team in football and we’re missing possibly their best player on defense in Baker.
Dating back to the Philly game this team has been dominated for 14 of the last 16 quarters. Should they be beating Philly, Dallas and San Fran? No. Should they be getting manhandled like this? No.
Bottom line, Daboll hasn't had them ready to play their last 4 games. When the whole team is this flat, this unporepared for this long, that's coaching. He did a great job least year. Last 4 games, not so much. the man needs to make some adjustments, with himself and his staff as well as his players.
is spot on. I don't care if Holmes is grabby - him on the inside with Jackson/Banks on the outside seems like our best trio at this point. If Banks is injured, can we try more of Flott? What a great play that was against the Vikings in the playoff game not too long ago. Seems like a forgotten man at the moment.
RE: Week 4 will determine where we are going this year
Seattle at home coming off lots of rest is a formula for us to come out ready and execute,or ELSE!!
Wink's defense has taken a step back considering we are in the 2nd year of the system. Part of it is an easy camp but part of it may just be that his style has been reviewed and figured out and he hasn't adjusted? Missed tackles are a bad bad sign.
The Giants OL is well not ready for prime time. Young. Inexperienced. But you have to hope there is upside and future especially with Neal, Schmitt and Ezedeu. If Neal remains "average at best" it hurts badly. Perhaps next year we see Thomas-ROOKIE#1-Schmitt-Neal-Ezedeu or something like that? McKethan a backup. Peart and Glowinski gone.
Finally, I haven't seen enough from Thibs to be sure but by now with his physical abilities you'd think he'd have more positive plays.
I believe in Daboll as a HC. I believe in Wink and think with 10 days they will make some adjustments.
If Thomas and Barkley are ready along with Ojulari on defense we should be competitive IF the coaches get the players to buy in and adjust to what they are good at.
9 - 8 is still possible. A wildcard is still possible. It is a long, long season and injuries hit so stay healthy and just beat Seattle without attrition and all will be well.
Week 4 is the key. 1-2 is par for the course with the schedule; it's a little uglier than we'd all like, but it wasn't reasonable to expect them to beat DAL/SF at this point in the season, with so much inexperience.
Seattle, though... that's a mid-tier NFC Team. If the Giants are hoping to have a good year with this schedule, you need to beat teams like Seattle.
home opener will always factor in how this team is judged. I feel it's just human nature to know how bad this team is capable of looking due to that one game.
Not fair, but that's life and the NFL.
To me, its to that they are 1-2 right now, it's how they won/lost. Out-0played, out-muscled and out-willed.
So you judge the 2007 New York Giants on the 80 points they gave up in the first two games of the season?
Weird. That's not how I remember them.
Was that the year they were 0-2, and at halftime game 3 vs Washington they were behind 17-nothing at the half, staring into the abyss?
It’s the outlier of the past 16 quarters, against a team that is actively tanking. I’d wager the offense won’t look like that again at any point of the season.
We shall see, won't we?
Couple of years back, we were stinking it up, and you went on a few weeks in a row about how they couldn't be this bad , you believed they had talent and should be better. That's about the only thing gives me hope, is that maybe they have the talent but just haven't gotten their shit together yet. Their attitudes don't seem right, none of them. None of them. They come out cold. They don't seem prepared, don't seem to have a command of the fundamentals, can't game plan, can't execute. They are certainly all on the same page though, I'll give them that.
Myself I Think a turnaround has to start with Daboll.He's missing something.
Getting the Giants to believe that weapons like Waller would somehow elevate DJ against good defenses will go down as perhaps the greatest trick a player and his agents ever pulled over an NFL franchise.
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
They don’t understand or just want complain like most.
RE: RE: There's one thing I disagree with Sy'56 on
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
There are a lot of plays he has more than 2 seconds. His movement in the pocket, making off-schedule throws accurately, shit, even on-schedule throws accuracy has been off. You can keep explaining away what we keep seeing ad nauseum, he hasn't shown to be good enough when it counts. No, you're not going to make every play no matter who you are, but 2 or 3 in a game often makes the difference, and he is not making any of them.
Your long post above was quite interesting, I agree with you that the Giants must take deep shots repeatedly. There’s a lot of speed at WR. It’s ok if they’re incomplete. Throw it long several times a game.
Couple other comments:
- The use of Parris Campbell as an underneath possession outlet has to be one of the weirder things I’ve seen out of this coaching staff. Doesn’t Campbell have sub 4.4 speed? I think he’s miscast and not playing the role well.
- Jim’s comments about Jones mirror Sy’s game review. Both are close to throwing in the towel on Jones. It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he’s middling and lays eggs with regularity. I’d say the next 5-6 games are another extremely important stretch for Jones’ career. We’re playing some good but not great defenses. Jones has to consistently deliver solid play in that stretch. If he doesn’t, Schoen as the GM will almost be forced to start scouting college QBs with an eye to replace DJ.
Your long post above was quite interesting, I agree with you that the Giants must take deep shots repeatedly. There’s a lot of speed at WR. It’s ok if they’re incomplete. Throw it long several times a game.
Couple other comments:
- The use of Parris Campbell as an underneath possession outlet has to be one of the weirder things I’ve seen out of this coaching staff. Doesn’t Campbell have sub 4.4 speed? I think he’s miscast and not playing the role well.
- Jim’s comments about Jones mirror Sy’s game review. Both are close to throwing in the towel on Jones. It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he’s middling and lays eggs with regularity. I’d say the next 5-6 games are another extremely important stretch for Jones’ career. We’re playing some good but not great defenses. Jones has to consistently deliver solid play in that stretch. If he doesn’t, Schoen as the GM will almost be forced to start scouting college QBs with an eye to replace DJ.
You can't use his, or Hyatt's speed if you don't have time. Campbell and Robinson are the two guys who are best at getting separation quickly. They knew they could not rely on plays against SF that take time to develop downfield.
But they need to start taking deep shots regularly v Seattle. It will put the D off balance and improve every Giants offensive player chances. It’s simply a must.
Is over reaction in my opinion. He had no opportunity to get into any kind of rhythm. Terrible protection, no receivers were getting open when he did have more than 2 seconds and a lot of guys are saying we should draft a new QB in the 1st round next year. It’s ridiculous. There are so many holes on this team. Invest in the OL next year. We need at least two new Guards and possibly a new RT.
We can win consistently with Jones if we put him in a position to do it and we’re close. The Defense also needs major help. Schoen has his work cut out for him next year.
How many different staffs and teammates does Jones
get before he has to own his fair share of a 1-11 record in prime time as the most important player on the field?
Why are people so intent on proving that our QB didn't "lose" us the game instead of asking the more important question of why don't strive to have a QB that we feel gives us a chance in any game?
These comments echo something that I've said more than a few times. Jones looks like he too often is playing not to screw up, not to lose than going for the win and doing so with confidence.
Doesn't mean he doesn't have that in him, he clearly does. It just is out there less consistently than any "franchise" QB I've ever seen.
That he looks like he’s playing not to lose. When he is given even a little time to work he delivers. Did it look like he was playing not to lose last week? The fact that he has been in so many different systems is more indicative that he has been set up for failure than a reason to expect that he should have proven more.
Quote:
I don't see the guy on the Giants that screams "follow me" and the team does.
Where is the one guy with the physical ability and mental toughness on the Giants to be that Leader.
Dex is the closest thing but we really need that stud linebacker who can take over a game.
Yea looked like they had no leadership down 3 TDs last week...
Some of you latch on to the stupidest shit.
They got outplayed by an infinitely better team.
Beautifully succinct and dead on: "They got outplayed by an infinitely better team."
Being more wordy myself, I'd tack on: with a patchwork close-to-all-rookie OL, 2 of their best hurt, and on the road with terribly adverse scheduling and timing.
Quote:
Seattle at home coming off lots of rest is a formula for us to come out ready and execute,or ELSE!!
Wink's defense has taken a step back considering we are in the 2nd year of the system. Part of it is an easy camp but part of it may just be that his style has been reviewed and figured out and he hasn't adjusted? Missed tackles are a bad bad sign.
The Giants OL is well not ready for prime time. Young. Inexperienced. But you have to hope there is upside and future especially with Neal, Schmitt and Ezedeu. If Neal remains "average at best" it hurts badly. Perhaps next year we see Thomas-ROOKIE#1-Schmitt-Neal-Ezedeu or something like that? McKethan a backup. Peart and Glowinski gone.
Finally, I haven't seen enough from Thibs to be sure but by now with his physical abilities you'd think he'd have more positive plays.
I believe in Daboll as a HC. I believe in Wink and think with 10 days they will make some adjustments.
If Thomas and Barkley are ready along with Ojulari on defense we should be competitive IF the coaches get the players to buy in and adjust to what they are good at.
9 - 8 is still possible. A wildcard is still possible. It is a long, long season and injuries hit so stay healthy and just beat Seattle without attrition and all will be well.
The second year of the system is nice, but the more important thing is talent level. We signed 3 key free agents who, prior to Dallas, will have practiced for real in it less than 16 times. Simmons and Basham less than half of that.
We have 2 rookie CBs. Again, 16 practices pre-Dallas at most. To both learn the system and get welcomed to the NFL.
Since Dallas the entire D will have practiced twice at most.
It's just too early to draw really any conclusions about the defense other than there's more work to do. And -- health aside because that's always a wild card -- you'd expect them to significantly improve each week. They need the game film and experience as a unit. Remember there's only one real practice a week (until late season when the may be none).
The defense requires synchronicity. Same with the OL. Both take reps.
If the missed tackles are cut in less than half; if the pass rush picks up with Ojulari back and Thibs turning it on (a big if...); and, the OL can at least develop more cohesion with Thomas back we should compete on Monday night.
Get the win and continue to learn and gel for the stretch run. 3 - 4 is a strong possibility but 1 - 6 during tough stretch would be hard to overcome for the playoffs.
But I do know that it seems crazy to pay everyone like you expect a contender lay 2 eggs against your direct competitors in that and then want to attack people who would like more out of a QB than that.
I never chastised posters for criticizing KT's play.
I chastised posters for saying he doesn't care or isn't trying.
Big difference.
Try keeping up.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
Jones is what he is: better than the alternatives that have been available, but not good enough. Absolutely, IF we're picking in the top half of the draft (which is likely, IMO) and we can maneuver to get a top QB prospect, that's the move to take. Continued play as we've seen it from DJ confirms this. Obviously, if he ups his game, this changes, but I'd place my bet on more of the same.
I don't see how Barkley and AT healthy get this team to 10-11 games, when so many other aspects of the team are not doing well. A lot of the team has to step up to the plate to get this team to winning half the 'easy' games. Way more than half the 'tough' games will be losses even with halfway decent play from the team. I'm guessing a 5-7 W window unless the Plan starts to come together. B and AT aren't the difference between being competitive and what we've been seeing.
Quote:
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
Priceless....cause you know 3 of this years picks are not only starting but have been some of our better players. Why the F not all of them? And why the F isn't Isaiah Simmons Micah Parsons? And for that matter how come Schoen couldn't get Dallas to trade Parsons to us for a 6th. And why the F aren't his free agent signings already being voted All-Pro?
Christ, he can't even stop our franchise LT from getting hurt.
Fire that loser!
Our season starts on Monday night, then we will see what we have. I will reserve judgement on Jones, and the whole team, until then
Quote:
I don't know if it's been the decade of Reese and Gettleman and all of the various coaches. I don't know if it is the 24-hour news cycle. I don't know if it is social media. I don't know if it is the state of sports journalism.... but arguments like the one you just made don't hold water with fans anymore.
There is absolutely no patience or perspective.
The Giants have the second-youngest team in the NFL and I doubt there is a team with a younger and more inexperienced offensive line.
It's essentially impossible to have a less experienced line than the Giants had against SF. You'd have to start 5 rookies.
Quote:
In comment 16218421 BillT said:
Quote:
We’re fielding the youngest starting roster in the league and I think by a pretty wide margin. We began the year playing two of the league’s powerhouse franchises. We’re already seen five different OL combinations on the field and only two spots where the same player has played every snap. Overall we have something like ten new starters. It says something when you’re looking forward to playing teams only as good as the Seahawks, Dolphins and Bills. I’m no more patient than most but this is not the time for proclamations about the future.
As to the different OL combinations, I think it's irrelevant. We have 2 good players, AT and JMS. All of the other guys are mediocre at best, doesn't matter where you put them. It's like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Right, and AT hasn’t played in two weeks so we’re replacing our best OL in the most important position with a backup guard. And Bredeson was better than Ezeudu, McKethan and Neal and he’s been gone as well. Anything but irrelevant.
I already gave props to AT. My comment regards the 2 guard positions and RT. If you think Bredeson is going to be some kind of savior, or even major upgrade, we'll have to agree to disagree. Yes, he's the best of the bunch, but he's still not much
The defense requires synchronicity. Same with the OL. Both take reps.
So far there's been no problem with the defense getting enough reps :)
Quote:
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
No, that wasn’t said. But, tell me which draft pick excites you right now? If they continue to play like complete garbage, who deserves blame?
Quote:
In comment 16218721 Silver Spoon said:
Quote:
must turn to Schoen and his draft picks. They all look like complete duds.
This is funny, we all loved Schoen a couple months ago and now he sucks as a GM to some. lol
No, that wasn’t said. But, tell me which draft pick excites you right now? If they continue to play like complete garbage, who deserves blame?
You did not say that but have seen it start to be thrown around lately.
Excited about Banks, JMS, Hyatt, Hawkins and Riley. They are 3 games in, maybe give them a couple more games before calling them garbage?
As far as Thibs and Neal, It's up to them to play better. Someone else would of drafted them shortly after us if we did not. It's not like they were reaches for Schoen.
Elephant in the room. This team is stuck in a perpetual loop of mediocrity unless they start totally knocking their drafts out of the park. This roster is young, but not necessarily good and it lacks depth.
This has me more pessimistic than anything else regarding the overall state of the Giants. The young talent needs to ascend and right now if anything I seem regression.
I'm not close to being out on this regime, just stating this roster isn't close to competing.
Yes the Giants were outplayed, but a few clutch and grabs that are ignored are sufficient to change the tenor of the game.
I agree on the Thibs illegal contact was weak. By rule Williams roughing the passer was correct. I just do not see how a 320 lber can change direction on a bang-bang play. It was a text book form tackle. Tough shit, QBs are football players too.
Quote:
The defense requires synchronicity. Same with the OL. Both take reps.
So far there's been no problem with the defense getting enough reps :)
I know it's tongue in cheek, but seriously -- Games 1-3 are a coaching film gift. We learn by mistakes, and they packed a season's worth into 3 games. The OL especially, after facing Dallas and SF.
Don Schoen
That's a pretty alarming, but reasonable take on the defense so far this season.
Quote:
And they will put a big run together at the end of the season.
We could be sitting at 1 - 5 if we don't fix the OL;
This stretch of games to open the year was going to be extremely challenging a month ago when no one was concerned about the OL.
They've lost to teams they should have lost to and beat a team they should have beat. Seattle is a much more interesting game than Dallas or San Fran. You will learn a lot about the 2023 Giants when they don't play a bottom feeder or a possible super bowl team.
I think they could go 2-5, and then they'll get games against Washington twice, Vegas, New England, and Green Bay, which are teams on or near their level.
Don Schoen
mixing Godfather and Animal House metaphors?
Quote:
In comment 16218905 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
And they will put a big run together at the end of the season.
We could be sitting at 1 - 5 if we don't fix the OL;
This stretch of games to open the year was going to be extremely challenging a month ago when no one was concerned about the OL.
They've lost to teams they should have lost to and beat a team they should have beat. Seattle is a much more interesting game than Dallas or San Fran. You will learn a lot about the 2023 Giants when they don't play a bottom feeder or a possible super bowl team.
I think they could go 2-5, and then they'll get games against Washington twice, Vegas, New England, and Green Bay, which are teams on or near their level.
The coaches now have enough film to figure it out I'd think and make adjustments. I can see this team establishing itself with a victory on Monday night and then on a short week perhaps we struggle but at least we get to 2 - 2 and show well.
Quote:
all family business: Williams? Dead. Jackson ? Dead. Barkley? Dead.
Don Schoen
mixing Godfather and Animal House metaphors?
"did we stop when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor ?"
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
Quote:
But any review of the offense that doesn't start, focus nearly 100 percent on, and end with the fact that was probably the least experienced offensive line to ever start a game in the NFL just isn't worth the time.
Peart was the experienced veteran leader of our oline Thurs.
Peart and LeMieux have the most time with the Giants (and LeMieux has more game experience), but Neal (with less than a full season of games) was the lineman with the most NFL game experience on the team Thursday. Think about that. Not one member of that O line has a year of game experience.
Are his conditions around him perfect? Nowhere near that. BUT, when NYG committed to Jones financially I expected him to still make some plays when things aren't perfect around him.
He gets confident and turns it on against inferior defenses. In recent memory, his best games were against the Vikings 2x, Colts and Cardinals. The offense was non existent against Philly, Dallas and SF.
It just feels like Jones is really good against bad defenses. Things will never be perfect around him , especially against the top tier teams.
Unfortunately, I think Sy said it best. "Daniel Jones just......is."
56 mil in cap space next year, thereabouts, right in the middle of the league as far as that goes, enough to operate on but looks like what we have is gonna be basically the same next year, I really hope these guys get their shit together, and that includes the coaching and playcalling. And the QB play. Not condemning the guy but he needs to start making some clutch plays that lead to wins. He can, he's done it, but we need more if he wants to be secure here.
Dating back to the Philly game this team has been dominated for 14 of the last 16 quarters. Should they be beating Philly, Dallas and San Fran? No. Should they be getting manhandled like this? No.
Wink's defense has taken a step back considering we are in the 2nd year of the system. Part of it is an easy camp but part of it may just be that his style has been reviewed and figured out and he hasn't adjusted? Missed tackles are a bad bad sign.
The Giants OL is well not ready for prime time. Young. Inexperienced. But you have to hope there is upside and future especially with Neal, Schmitt and Ezedeu. If Neal remains "average at best" it hurts badly. Perhaps next year we see Thomas-ROOKIE#1-Schmitt-Neal-Ezedeu or something like that? McKethan a backup. Peart and Glowinski gone.
Finally, I haven't seen enough from Thibs to be sure but by now with his physical abilities you'd think he'd have more positive plays.
I believe in Daboll as a HC. I believe in Wink and think with 10 days they will make some adjustments.
If Thomas and Barkley are ready along with Ojulari on defense we should be competitive IF the coaches get the players to buy in and adjust to what they are good at.
9 - 8 is still possible. A wildcard is still possible. It is a long, long season and injuries hit so stay healthy and just beat Seattle without attrition and all will be well.
Week 4 is the key. 1-2 is par for the course with the schedule; it's a little uglier than we'd all like, but it wasn't reasonable to expect them to beat DAL/SF at this point in the season, with so much inexperience.
Seattle, though... that's a mid-tier NFC Team. If the Giants are hoping to have a good year with this schedule, you need to beat teams like Seattle.
Quote:
home opener will always factor in how this team is judged. I feel it's just human nature to know how bad this team is capable of looking due to that one game.
Not fair, but that's life and the NFL.
To me, its to that they are 1-2 right now, it's how they won/lost. Out-0played, out-muscled and out-willed.
So you judge the 2007 New York Giants on the 80 points they gave up in the first two games of the season?
Weird. That's not how I remember them.
Quote:
It’s the outlier of the past 16 quarters, against a team that is actively tanking. I’d wager the offense won’t look like that again at any point of the season.
We shall see, won't we?
Myself I Think a turnaround has to start with Daboll.He's missing something.
.
Quote:
And then something I feel was overlooked.
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
They don’t understand or just want complain like most.
Quote:
And then something I feel was overlooked.
I watched the illegal contact penalty play on Thibodeau about 5-6 times. It was the correct call, the initial contact was probably within 5 yards on Kittle, but the push DEFINITELY was after the 5 yards. It was a legit penalty.
I said before this game that there were two factors that needed to be present for the Giants to win this game. One was that they had to create turnovers. It seems they had a few chances at INTs and the corners couldn't come up with the play, and the chances were there.
There was one where Kittle knocked it away, I think from Hawkins but my memory might be faulty there...at any rate, he waited for the football rather than attack it, where he would've had a better chance.
The second was big plays down the field. This is my biggest disappointment. I agree with Sy in that Hyatt is under-utilized. This was THE spot where he needed to play a ton of snaps and get targets down the field. As a huge underdog, there was nothing to lose, and the offensive gameplan was terribly conservative. Underneath throws to Campbell and Wan'Dale was never going to get it done.
Against a team that is dynamic and efficient as the 49ers are on offense, and has a very good defense with balance at all three levels, you have to take chances down the field. To me, this was a coaching mistake in that trying to get the homerun downfield was just not tried enough, and the most dangerous weapon the Giants have to that end didn't get enough snaps.
The Giants were very much over-matched in this ballgame. When that is the case, you have to be bold in the offensive gameplanning, and particularly without Barkley, it seemed they were overly conservative.
To me, the fastest point to being a dangerous offensive team is to treat Hyatt as your team's primary target; your Stefon Diggs, your Tyreek Hill. Maybe he will never be that, but you have to ship your chips in the middle in a game like this and see what happens.
I thought McFadden's game was a little undersold. I thought he was absolutely terrific. There were tackles he made way down the field, and how about the big pass break-up in the endzone, on the boundary no less, down field. He made plays in the backfield, and plays in the secondary. He played impressively instinctual, and to me seems like the 2nd best defensive player on this team after Dexter Lawrence in the early going. The Giants have found something here.
I said after week 1's game that DJ needs to rise to the occasion against the best competition. It's a theme over the past couple of seasons. He looks great against below average defenses, and sometimes against average defenses, but hasn't shown he can elevate his game and his teammates against the better defenses. The overthrow to Waller as Sy pointed out is a part of this narrative.
I liken him to a B-version of Cousins. At this point, you know Cousins isn't going to be the guy that can turn it up and win you a Super Bowl against a great defense. He'll look like a world beater against weak playoff teams or non-playoff teams, and fold completely against superior competition.
The Giants will be spinning their wheels until they find a guy that can or until DJ shows he can elevate his game and make big plays against those teams.
They have to start treating Hyatt as their primary receiver. None of the other guys have the capability to become that, but Hyatt can. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but you have to give him that shot, because he is the X-factor that can scare teams.
Last thing, they have to consider that Parris Campbell and Wan'Dale on the field is not the best version of this offense. Given what this team's strengths are, mainly, making plays with the Quarterback's legs and utilizing his deep ball accuracy, it would seem to me that the best version of this offense includes a lot more Bellinger on the field in 12 personnel, with speed on the outside (Hyatt & Slayton).
Please list all the QBs who can lift their game and those around them against the best teams in the league without at least an average offensive line? What QB can make effective throws downfield when they routinely have less than 2 seconds to set up and throw?
And Campbell and Robinson will be the best offense to have on the field until the O line can give the QB at least 2 seconds. They are the receivers who can get quick separation. Thomas will help with that. Maybe Ezuedu instead of LeMieux helps that.
I don't think people really understand how badly that inexperienced O line was overmatched against San Fran. Actually, considering who was playing, they didn't do that badly. But it greatly limited what the offense could do, and what plays could be called. SF knew that, which gave their D a huge edge.
And when the offense can't stay on the field it compounds the struggles of the defense because they are on the field more.
There are a lot of plays he has more than 2 seconds. His movement in the pocket, making off-schedule throws accurately, shit, even on-schedule throws accuracy has been off. You can keep explaining away what we keep seeing ad nauseum, he hasn't shown to be good enough when it counts. No, you're not going to make every play no matter who you are, but 2 or 3 in a game often makes the difference, and he is not making any of them.
Couple other comments:
- The use of Parris Campbell as an underneath possession outlet has to be one of the weirder things I’ve seen out of this coaching staff. Doesn’t Campbell have sub 4.4 speed? I think he’s miscast and not playing the role well.
- Jim’s comments about Jones mirror Sy’s game review. Both are close to throwing in the towel on Jones. It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he’s middling and lays eggs with regularity. I’d say the next 5-6 games are another extremely important stretch for Jones’ career. We’re playing some good but not great defenses. Jones has to consistently deliver solid play in that stretch. If he doesn’t, Schoen as the GM will almost be forced to start scouting college QBs with an eye to replace DJ.
Couple other comments:
- The use of Parris Campbell as an underneath possession outlet has to be one of the weirder things I’ve seen out of this coaching staff. Doesn’t Campbell have sub 4.4 speed? I think he’s miscast and not playing the role well.
- Jim’s comments about Jones mirror Sy’s game review. Both are close to throwing in the towel on Jones. It’s not that he sucks. It’s that he’s middling and lays eggs with regularity. I’d say the next 5-6 games are another extremely important stretch for Jones’ career. We’re playing some good but not great defenses. Jones has to consistently deliver solid play in that stretch. If he doesn’t, Schoen as the GM will almost be forced to start scouting college QBs with an eye to replace DJ.
You can't use his, or Hyatt's speed if you don't have time. Campbell and Robinson are the two guys who are best at getting separation quickly. They knew they could not rely on plays against SF that take time to develop downfield.
We can win consistently with Jones if we put him in a position to do it and we’re close. The Defense also needs major help. Schoen has his work cut out for him next year.
Why are people so intent on proving that our QB didn't "lose" us the game instead of asking the more important question of why don't strive to have a QB that we feel gives us a chance in any game?
These comments echo something that I've said more than a few times. Jones looks like he too often is playing not to screw up, not to lose than going for the win and doing so with confidence.
Doesn't mean he doesn't have that in him, he clearly does. It just is out there less consistently than any "franchise" QB I've ever seen.