Was letting Julian Love go a big mistake?

In Seattle.

I think he was a glue guy. I think we are seeing that now. I cringe every time people say he is slow. No, he wasn't fast for a corner but he was fast for a safety. Go look at his RAS. He was a good tackler and was always in the right spot. He wasn't going to wow you but he just did his job. I think he is replaceable but we haven't done it yet. Pinnock is not Love. I would have liked to see him back. Maybe next offseason? I think he signed a 2 year deal but I think it may have been really a 1 year deal.

In comment 16218403 The_Boss said:

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In Seattle.

Read that here too. Don't quote me, but I think Sy mentioned it in one of his game reviews.

Guy never missed a tackle. I understand why Schoen let it happen, but that negotiating stance incurred a cost.

Pinnock has been terriffic in the scope of things. It's a team sport.

at the Bye week, he turned it down and then went out and ended up signing a lesser deal with Seattle

In comment 16218412 HBart said:

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Pinnock has been terriffic in the scope of things. It's a team sport.

You probably see a blitz where he makes a play when he is not blocked. I see horrible angles that lead to huge gains.

letting him go for less than half of what they gave okereke, and essentially the same cap # this year as paris campbell, who looks like he's totally unnecessary, seems like something they should probably wish they had a do over on.

as robbie mentioned he was one of the best tacklers on the defense and he was a glue guy who was often in the right place at the right time. he wasn't a big play maker but he cleaned up a lot. he had 30 more solo tackles last year than the next closest giant.

letting a captain they wanted to bring back walk for a very modest amount of money never made much sense.

reminder - last years defense didn't give up 28+ points until week 11 vs detroit. they only allowed 28+ points 3 times all year, and just 2 games over 30 (philly, detroit).

almost fully healthy they have given up 28+ points in 3/3 games so far and 30+ in 2/3.

the defense has been an abomination so far.

They made competitive offers and Love was the one who kept playing negotiating table card games. Giants weren’t willing to wait or outbid themselves.

In comment 16218417 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 16218412 HBart said: Quote: Pinnock has been terriffic in the scope of things. It's a team sport. You probably see a blitz where he makes a play when he is not blocked. I see horrible angles that lead to huge gains.

No, unlike many, I go deeper than that. Like I said, it's a team sport.

Pinnock will probably lead the team in tackles too. Frankly that's a bug - Okereke or McFadden should (and after Thursday McFadden is with 2 more than Pinnock).

And we gave the money to another "burner" who can't do anything behind this oline.

Unfortunately Love is not a Wink type player. Honestly it probably was better letting Wink go over Love.

His absence is not the issue

In comment 16218464 Sammo85 said:

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They made competitive offers and Love was the one who kept playing negotiating table card games. Giants weren’t willing to wait or outbid themselves.

love reportedly gave them a chance to match the offer from seattle and the giants declined.

paris campbell has a $5m cap # this year. 3m of that was gtd but he will get all 5m. signed on 3/16.
julian love has a $3.9m cap # this year. he got 6m total gtd. signed on 3/17.

which would you rather have right now?

this D could use some vet leadership.

for the contract he was given.

Parris Campbell is underwhelming.

overrate players you are familiar with. No, Love was not worth the money and he’s not playing well in Seattle. Next?

we would have only lost 27-12!

In comment 16218410 cosmicj said:

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Guy never missed a tackle. I understand why Schoen let it happen, but that negotiating stance incurred a cost.

Love actually made very few plays. Always in position but never an actual play on the ball. Yes his pick Vs the ravens was awesome. That’s about. Usually he was a step slow and his lack of size showed up on film every fucking. He could not cover tight ends effectively at his size and struggled when the ball was in the air. His punt return almost pick last year was the end for me. After that I had enough. He’s not a true nfl starting caliber safety. The love affair has to end. Fans get so wrapped up in draft picks they put blinders on.

In comment 16218498 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 16218464 Sammo85 said: Quote: They made competitive offers and Love was the one who kept playing negotiating table card games. Giants weren’t willing to wait or outbid themselves. love reportedly gave them a chance to match the offer from seattle and the giants declined. paris campbell has a $5m cap # this year. 3m of that was gtd but he will get all 5m. signed on 3/16. julian love has a $3.9m cap # this year. he got 6m total gtd. signed on 3/17. which would you rather have right now?

Campbell.

Not that Campbell is worth his money - he's not. But he might be. Whether Love is better than Pinnock is highly debatable. If he is, the split hair Love "wins" by wouldn't make a difference.

I was very high on Campbell. Based on his early returns I'd rather have Crowder.

But the season starts now. We'll see.

we should never have touched Waller. that would’ve made room for Love to stay.

Waller was cooked years ago, and even when he wasn’t, he couldn’t stay healthy. bringing him in - which also stunts Bellinger’s growth - was a HUGE miscalculation.

It is Mckinney who has been a disappointment, and it would have been an unusual belief to consider Love more valuable than Mckinney.

In comment 16218537 Chris in Philly said:

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overrate players you are familiar with. No, Love was not worth the money and he’s not playing well in Seattle. Next?

Love was a good player, but you are dead on. He wasn't worth the additional investment. This idea by the OP is a red herring...

We have bigger problems than safety and one game of poor tackling. We can't generate a consistent pass rush and we can't create turnovers.

is this team soooo talented we give up a + player, a 100+ tackle green dot? What the hell.

but I don’t think he makes much of a difference against SF. At this point I just hope Schoen pays premium players and uses the rest to invest in the LOS.

In comment 16218552 Tuckrule said:

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In comment 16218410 cosmicj said: Quote: Guy never missed a tackle. I understand why Schoen let it happen, but that negotiating stance incurred a cost. Love actually made very few plays. Always in position but never an actual play on the ball. Yes his pick Vs the ravens was awesome. That’s about. Usually he was a step slow and his lack of size showed up on film every fucking. He could not cover tight ends effectively at his size and struggled when the ball was in the air. His punt return almost pick last year was the end for me. After that I had enough. He’s not a true nfl starting caliber safety. The love affair has to end. Fans get so wrapped up in draft picks they put blinders on.

The name of the game for defenses today is eliminating big plays and making offenses march down the field in 10+ play drives. Sure tackling is a key part of that. Love was a very good tackler and a smart player and a key component making that happen. This season, we’re seeing missed tackles all over the place. I counted 5 (five!) in one of Deebos catches on Thursday. Letting Love go looks like a big mistake.

I think you’re a really knowledgeable poster, but in this case you are looking at things entirely the wrong way.

PFF rates him poorly. 40.7 so far.

To me Julian Love was the dog in the secondary last year. He was the one putting his helmet in there in harms way and wrapping up. Tackling truly is a mindset. A player has to want to do it. By example Julian did that. And I fear there is no leader back there who wants to win badly enough to make sure his teammates follow his lead and tackles. I would bench Hawkins for his business decision to not tackle on that gutless play.

for 2023. See any big playoff players/teams on that list?

The only one I would remotely consider worth the $ is Fitz. And that's because he's a multiple safety who can play slot/nickle. James used to be great, but he's too injured.

The safety position is as fungible as RB.

1. Chargers safety Derwin James: $19 million
2. Steelers safety Minkah Fitzpatrick: $18.2 million
3. Seahawks safety Jamal Adams: $17.5 million
4. Falcons safety Jessie Bates III: $16.01 million
5. Vikings safety Harrison Smith: $16 million
6. Broncos safety Justin Simmons: $15.25 million
7. Cardinals safety Budda Baker: $14.75 million
8. Bears safety Eddie Jackson: $14.6 million
9. Ravens safety Marcus Williams: $14 million
10. Seahawks safety Quandre Diggs: $13 million

In comment 16218600 Toth029 said:

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PFF rates him poorly. 40.7 so far.

So? He was a good player for the Giants. This argument that he’s not yet successful with the Seahawks ergo he didn’t help the Giants a lot is mindless. Scheme fit is important.

Seattle is right near the bottom defensively with the Giants in points allowed. PFF rates the Seahawks safeties, including Love as the worst in the league. Love has been the most targeted and given up the most receptions of all safeties in the early going.

If the measurement is how many clean up tackles downfield a safety gets, Pinnock has Love beat in that category.

In comment 16218601 GoBigBlue16to56 said:

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To me Julian Love was the dog in the secondary last year. He was the one putting his helmet in there in harms way and wrapping up. Tackling truly is a mindset. A player has to want to do it. By example Julian did that. And I fear there is no leader back there who wants to win badly enough to make sure his teammates follow his lead and tackles. I would bench Hawkins for his business decision to not tackle on that gutless play.

agree 100%. Pinnock has the measureables, but seems to have the opposite mindset, which is more like “throw yourself into traffic and hope something happens” not “kill the ball carrier.”

In comment 16218613 cosmicj said:

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In comment 16218600 Toth029 said: Quote: PFF rates him poorly. 40.7 so far. So? He was a good player for the Giants. This argument that he’s not yet successful with the Seahawks ergo he didn’t help the Giants a lot is mindless. Scheme fit is important.

All this debate is acting as if the salary cap doesn’t exist. Safety is not the best place to invest significant resources and Love is a nice player who was not worth breaking the bank for. Schoen offered him a fair deal, he turned it down. That is his right as a free agent. His replacement has not been the problem.

I disagree with you. In today’s NFL, safety is a key position. You guys are keeping to a philosophy that maybe was true 10-15 years ago but us no longer valid. Defenses need to minimize big gains. Good safeties are the ones making sure that happens.

I also invite you to contrast the 22 and 23 Giants. It’s a really instructive case study. Love (who was one of the few bright spots under Judge, btw) missed very few tackles and was a heady, aware player. The defense generally played the pass pretty well. He leaves and lo and behold we are seeing a load of missed tackles, long drives, 3rd down conversions (this was happening vs the Cardinals too) and general ineptitude.

I’m not attributing this all to Love’s departure, but I was really angered when Schoen deprioritized signing Love and everything I’ve seen since has convinced me that I was absolutely right to feel that way.

I wouldn't hone in on safety play and suggest that's a big reason for our putrid play thus far. The problems right now are at every level on both sides of the ball.

I cede the point there wasn't good tackling in the San Fran game. But I could justify some of that being due to the short week, recovery and just a bad match up.

Comparing the full 2022 season with 3 games of the 2023 season (incl the best team in the league on a short week) is not all that instructive because of the sample size. And I fully appreciate the value that a top notch safety can provide but in a salary cap world you simply have to prioritize.

Can't tell if it's a "big mistake" in 3 games but confusion in the secondary certainly has been an issue. Hopefully it improves, I'm inclined to think it will. We'll have a more definitive answer to this question in about about 4 months.

Love was looking for $10M a year and the offer he accepted from Seattle was less than what the Giants offered him. If you all want to be annoyed about his departure, you should complain to him.

Once Hawkins/Banks, Robinson, Nacho, Okereke, Simmons and Basham become comfortable in the system and with some real film to work off? Not to mention if - God willing and the creek don't rise - Azeez plays a game now and then.


Personally I think Pinnock looks good to the point where I'd rate his position lock higher than McKinney's.

Love also deserves more than a few games in a new system to see if he's earning his duckets.

In comment 16218601 GoBigBlue16to56 said:

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To me Julian Love was the dog in the secondary last year. He was the one putting his helmet in there in harms way and wrapping up. Tackling truly is a mindset. A player has to want to do it. By example Julian did that. And I fear there is no leader back there who wants to win badly enough to make sure his teammates follow his lead and tackles. I would bench Hawkins for his business decision to not tackle on that gutless play.

Yeah screw that "rah rah" type "leadership" that dummies talk about, leadership by example is the most effective type of leadership.

I thought Schoen offered him a decent dea.

Feels like he wants out of the city because of taxes too.

In comment 16218578 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16218537 Chris in Philly said: Quote: overrate players you are familiar with. No, Love was not worth the money and he’s not playing well in Seattle. Next? Love was a good player, but you are dead on. He wasn't worth the additional investment. This idea by the OP is a red herring... We have bigger problems than safety and one game of poor tackling. We can't generate a consistent pass rush and we can't create turnovers.

This. Julian Love would have made a difference vs San Fran and Dallas? Nice player. But the other 10 guys who can't tackle would tackle if he was here ? This team right now has one guy I'm sure on. Dex. That's it. Some guys show flashes but right now I'm starting to think they may be one of the worst in the whole NFL. And there's no way they should be that bad. They barely stopped Josh Dobbs and Arrizona.

In comment 16218466 HBart said:

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In comment 16218417 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: In comment 16218412 HBart said: Quote: Pinnock has been terriffic in the scope of things. It's a team sport. You probably see a blitz where he makes a play when he is not blocked. I see horrible angles that lead to huge gains. No, unlike many, I go deeper than that. Like I said, it's a team sport. Pinnock will probably lead the team in tackles too. Frankly that's a bug - Okereke or McFadden should (and after Thursday McFadden is with 2 more than Pinnock).

Pinnock has not played well and blew the 3rd and 15 the other night(game changingplay). He is faster than Love, but he is not as stable as Love.
Pinnock has more upside, IMHO, but to date he is out of control and not th sure tackler Love was.

In comment 16218412 HBart said:

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Pinnock has been terriffic in the scope of things. It's a team sport.

Funny. Some people complain he is playing poorly. Used to get some good info off this site but now content is 90% complaints.

was good last year and made some game changing plays. Also was a natural leader / glue type guy. Was sorry to see him go.

Honestly, Pinnock and Love would have been more fun for me to watch than Pinnock and McKinney.