The quality of play in this league is at an all time low.

In comment 16220089 Eli2020 said:

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teams like the Cowboys, 49ers, Eagles, and Chiefs have figured out a workaround. They know something the rest of the league doesn't, and it's not just about talent or coaching. It's the franchise itself. There's a reason why they can go coach-to-coach, QB-to-QB, and dominate physically every year.

Wtf has Dallas figured out? I must be missing something…lost to AZ today, hasn’t won 2 consecutive playoff games in nearly 30 years..

Does anybody think Sean Payton has forgotten how to coach? Does anyone feel Doug Pedersen has coaching amnesia? Belichick? McVay?

The system is broken because of the collective bargaining agreement. The hard cap and roster limitations hurt depth and development.

say it's primarily due to moving from two-a-day practices with contact to only a handful of fully-padded practices in August (the Giants probably had no more than six or seven padded practices).

Spring has become more important in team mental preparation (10 OTAs), but there is no contact at all.

To be honest, I don't know how you develop players given the CBA restrictions.

In place limiting practice and training camps have limited coaches ability to get a quality product on the field the first few games of the year.

It wasn’t all that long ago that two-a-day practices, full pads practices, six game exhibition seasons were the norm. The first 2-4 games of the year the players (and coaches) are still getting their sea legs. The quality goes up from there. I don’t think ‘coaching’ is any worse; I mean they all have huge support staffs that never existed before - analytics departments, expanded training staffs, sports psychologists, biometrics on players, etc.

The early part of the season it’s just a mess to watch. I think the coaches hands are tied, but would like to hear more from experts like Sy to understand what specifically about coaching is the concern.

not playing your starters in preseason games is having an effect.

Teams are still rounding into form.

take Evan Neal.

Giants fans: "why hasn't Evan Neal gotten better with another camp?"


Reality: Neal would have had six or seven fully-padded practices if he didn't get hurt. How does an offensive lineman get better with only six or seven practices?

Worse, Neal missed two weeks of camp (including the joint Detroit practices).

How the heck do you develop a player?

League wants to add another game and take away a preseason game?

Just wait until they add teams in Europe.

In comment 16220393 Eric from BBI said:

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not playing your starters in preseason games is having an effect.

Been saying this for years, as have others.

Two memories from training camp when it really was a training camp:

1. Bill Parcells sending his starters out in the 4th quarter of the 4TH preseason game in 1987.

2. Merlin Olsen on a telecast talking about how "his body had a callus over it" after getting done training camp.

In comment 16220324 UConn4523 said:

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In comment 16220314 Daniel in MI said: Quote: Sorry but it is. These guys are bigger, stronger, faster. The game is faster. The WRs are faster. There’s more specialization. The Os are more intricate. When Lombardi coached the sweep was innovation. Imagine his players facing Mahomes and Andy Reid’s team. Or a back like Saquon and 315 lb linemen than can run like their RBs? Players being more athletic doesn’t mean shit. 10 years from now, science will continue to help churn out better athletes than today, time repeat each new generation of player. The NFL has a very big quality problem. Probably not enough to turn away enough viewers but enough to turn away people with better things to do. So many non competitive games this week, and most weeks. It isn’t enjoyable to watch, so I don’t.

Spot on. I pretty much solely watch the Giants now and if they’re bad, whatever. My Sunday’s have freed up a lot.

The other comment on fantasy & gambling is also true, friends of mine who do neither don’t really watch anymore. Friends that do are glued to their TV’s.

In comment 16220315 BlueHurricane said:

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In comment 16220175 gtt350 said: Quote: the ND Ohio State game was the best footbal game i've seen this season, And the Fla st Clemson game was damn good also This. And it’s not close.

Its not close at all.

In comment 16220386 Breeze_94 said:

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In comment 16220089 Eli2020 said: Quote: teams like the Cowboys, 49ers, Eagles, and Chiefs have figured out a workaround. They know something the rest of the league doesn't, and it's not just about talent or coaching. It's the franchise itself. There's a reason why they can go coach-to-coach, QB-to-QB, and dominate physically every year. Wtf has Dallas figured out? I must be missing something…lost to AZ today, hasn’t won 2 consecutive playoff games in nearly 30 years..

Didn’t Dallas get dinged for practicing beyond the cba rules? The Pats (when they were good) as well? I’m still curious what Philly puts in their ‘shakes’.

Teams that are comfortable skirting the rules can gain an advantage with very limited risk.

Teams are using the first 4 or 5 games of the regular season to get in game shape.
The CBA is a joke with respect to training camps
Does any team team teach blocking and tackling techniques anymore.

In comment 16220398 Eric from BBI said:

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take Evan Neal. Giants fans: "why hasn't Evan Neal gotten better with another camp?" Reality: Neal would have had six or seven fully-padded practices if he didn't get hurt. How does an offensive lineman get better with only six or seven practices? Worse, Neal missed two weeks of camp (including the joint Detroit practices). How the heck do you develop a player?

Yep, excellent points, with your other posts as well. No tackling in preseason, so no coaching for tackling, hence TNF vs the 49ers with tackles missed all over.

Said yesterday, it takes until between the 4th and 6th game to find out what you have and which teams are actually good or bad.

The practice restrictions in the last CBA are clearly impacting play. At least empirically, they're not reducing injuries; it feels like the opposite. Both sides can throw numbers at this to reflect whatever they want -- the sample size is so small it can't allow definitive conclusions other than (maybe) more players are getting hurt. If so, no shit sherlock. More people are hurt in cars than were in stage coaches.

The NFL surely sees the negative impact of country club camp and <1 real practice per game on its product and key safety goal -- protecting the QB. It's taken a few years to become glaring. But can they do anything about it if they want to? NFLPA represents all the players and the more money going to QBs the less for everyone else. It's not in their interest to change.

The modern players train year round unlike years ago when they needed training camp just to get in shape.

Parcells coached the Giants 40 years ago - things have changed

The CBA is a 2 way street - why as a player would you not want to reduce preseason and fully padded practices - it is in you best interest. The reality is the rank and file do not matter - the top end do. QBs drive salaries for everyone else despite the numbers they get

In comment 16220590 stretch234 said:

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The modern players train year round unlike years ago when they needed training camp just to get in shape. Parcells coached the Giants 40 years ago - things have changed The CBA is a 2 way street - why as a player would you not want to reduce preseason and fully padded practices - it is in you best interest. The reality is the rank and file do not matter - the top end do. QBs drive salaries for everyone else despite the numbers they get

There is no amount of training that players can do in the off-season to get into football shape. The only way to do that is to play football

if the the days of sound, fundamental football is gone for good, perhaps there is a reason why the NFL is trying to distract us with thinking we give two shits about Taylor Swift?

the CBA has had a impact and some teams are too cautious in PS.

The OL is impacted by how colleges and lower levels of football play offense. College game also has a different rule with how far OL can be downfield before it is a penalty which impacts the RPO game. The blocking style does not translate as well to the NFL imv.

I think drafting and coaching has to be that much better with the rules.

In comment 16220636 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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the CBA has had a impact and some teams are too cautious in PS. The OL is impacted by how colleges and lower levels of football play offense. College game also has a different rule with how far OL can be downfield before it is a penalty which impacts the RPO game. The blocking style does not translate as well to the NFL imv. I think drafting and coaching has to be that much better with the rules.

Indeed. It's one of things I like about our coaches/GM. They always talk about player-system fit and they're on the same page.

and has been declining since Polian pushed the league to grant offenses more space. It opened Pandora's box along with the NFL's greed, and trying to lighten the load for players at the same time.

It's painfully obvious. Fundamental football, from tackling to conditioning to mentality to coaching readiness, you name it. A ton of shitty teams and shitty product, including the Giants.

In comment 16220645 JonC said:

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and has been declining since Polian pushed the league to grant offenses more space. It opened Pandora's box along with the NFL's greed, and trying to lighten the load for players at the same time. It's painfully obvious. Fundamental football, from tackling to conditioning to mentality to coaching readiness, you name it. A ton of shitty teams and shitty product, including the Giants.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Everything started to decline when defenses began to be prevented from playing effective pass defense.

Watch old games from the '70s and '80s, as I often do, and the difference in fundamentals of blocking and tackling is eye opening.

Fantasy football is a plague.

Is the NFL's player development plan. That'll take a decade to play out if it works at all.

Eric I think you're on to something. We're seeing Taylor Swift tackling.

The focus of the NFL is clearly on the casual fan. When our generation is all gone in however many years, they'll be able to justify they made the "correct" tactical decisions. Young generations, hell millions who actually have no clue about football even as a big fans, don't or won't know the difference.

In comment 16220398 Eric from BBI said:

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take Evan Neal. Giants fans: "why hasn't Evan Neal gotten better with another camp?" Reality: Neal would have had six or seven fully-padded practices if he didn't get hurt. How does an offensive lineman get better with only six or seven practices? Worse, Neal missed two weeks of camp (including the joint Detroit practices). How the heck do you develop a player?

100% agree. You have the NFL trying to protect their quarterbacks but not giving the players that are supposed to protect them real reps.

Their defense is ferocious... and then some!

They are #1 in rushing defense allowing a paltry 52 yards per game.

They are #1 in passing defense allowing a paltry 112 yards per game.

They are #1 in points allowed per game -- 10.7.

In comment 16220667 JonC said:

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The focus of the NFL is clearly on the casual fan. When our generation is all gone in however many years, they'll be able to justify they made the "correct" tactical decisions. Young generations, hell millions who actually have no clue about football even as a big fans, don't or won't know the difference.

There's a bit of hope. Even young fans will tire of sloppy play. And everyone loves hitting. Hits make highlights like TDs. Also international, NFL's focus, has discerning sports fans used to dissecting their football teams every play even more than here.

But for the here and now, Taylor Swift Tackling and dealing with clown-shows with youth-heavy OLs.

In comment 16220684 M.S. said:

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Their defense is ferocious... and then some! They are #1 in rushing defense allowing a paltry 52 yards per game. They are #1 in passing defense allowing a paltry 112 yards per game. They are #1 in points allowed per game -- 10.7.

And their defense was far better than ours last season. Do you remember just how bad our run D was and how few impact plays our defense made?

So we added some talent to address the most glaring gaps.

It's game 3. You can't expect better performance without change, and you can't expect change without some time and some lumps. It's been 3 games.

In comment 16220315 BlueHurricane said:

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In comment 16220175 gtt350 said: Quote: the ND Ohio State game was the best footbal game i've seen this season, And the Fla st Clemson game was damn good also This. And it’s not close.

Yea...no...not by a long shot.

The college game is played by kids. And it looks like it is a game played by kids. It's not the pro game...stop.

In comment 16220630 Eric from BBI said:

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if the the days of sound, fundamental football is gone for good, perhaps there is a reason why the NFL is trying to distract us with thinking we give two shits about Taylor Swift?

It's also monumentally easier to play sound, fundamental football when your entire playbook contains six plays written in ballpoint pen on looseleaf paper.

The schemes have gotten much more sophisticated (and complicated) at the same time that physical practice resources have been reduced to an all-time low.

I watch a lot of old games, most recently the 1990 Giants. I would say the hitting and defense is absolutely better in previous times - possibly a function of the rules. The offensive scheming, athleticism, and QB play was definitely worse in past eras, however. I'm not necessarily talking about Simms and Hoss (although they both probably have more head-scratching decisions than you remember), but a lot of these QBs I see in old games look barely functional. Again, probably a function of the rules and the Giants D of that era, but also offenses look much sophisticated these days and receivers and QBs utilize space much more effectively.

And yes the CBA rules water things down, but several teams have adjusted and have produced consistent winners. It looks weak to blame these things on the Giants not being able to produce a consistent winner.

Exactly. Offenses were huddling regularly and the schemes were very basic. It was ground and pound football and maybe that's what a lot of folks here prefer.

In comment 16220762 Sean said:

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Exactly. Offenses were huddling regularly and the schemes were very basic. It was ground and pound football and maybe that's what a lot of folks here prefer.

It all strikes me as a little bit nostalgic for an era where the Giants just happened to be good. Otherwise, yesterday seems like an unusual day to point fingers at the league. Yes, you had the Dolphins putting up 70 (which is cool in its own right because they have incredible offensive talent with a great coach to match), but you the Browns putting up killer defense, the Jets and Pats engaging in an old-fashioned rock fight, and then the Cards running it down Dallas' throats.

I'm reminded of the time the Chiefs and Rams had that ridiculous 100-point dual in 2018 and Dep reacted by complaining that it was an arena league game, which just seemed like coping with the reality that Eli could no longer put up that type of game anymore.

It’s still the beginning of the season and it takes longer to gel.

Secondly with the new CBA players have no time together in pads. So the gelling part is going to be longer than normal.

By the end of the season the cream will rise to the top. But this issue is going to lead to some trouble for the league. Fans are getting turned off. But the league is so big they don’t really care as they start expanding in to Europe for a reason.

In comment 16220759 Lambuth_Special said:

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I watch a lot of old games, most recently the 1990 Giants. I would say the hitting and defense is absolutely better in previous times - possibly a function of the rules. The offensive scheming, athleticism, and QB play was definitely worse in past eras, however. I'm not necessarily talking about Simms and Hoss (although they both probably have more head-scratching decisions than you remember), but a lot of these QBs I see in old games look barely functional. Again, probably a function of the rules and the Giants D of that era, but also offenses look much sophisticated these days and receivers and QBs utilize space much more effectively. And yes the CBA rules water things down, but several teams have adjusted and have produced consistent winners. It looks weak to blame these things on the Giants not being able to produce a consistent winner.

Great point. The QBing floor has been seriously raised. The defensive floor is lower in terms of technique and fundamentals -- much higher in athleticism.

All is well. The league is awesome, never better.

In comment 16220792 Greg from LI said:

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All is well. The league is awesome, never better.

Don't fans say this about every league though? We see countless threads criticizing present day NBA. MLB is no longer relevant on the national scale. Maybe hockey is still good? I don't know, I don't really follow it.

In comment 16220782 Lambuth_Special said:

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In comment 16220762 Sean said: Quote: Exactly. Offenses were huddling regularly and the schemes were very basic. It was ground and pound football and maybe that's what a lot of folks here prefer. It all strikes me as a little bit nostalgic for an era where the Giants just happened to be good. Otherwise, yesterday seems like an unusual day to point fingers at the league. Yes, you had the Dolphins putting up 70 (which is cool in its own right because they have incredible offensive talent with a great coach to match), but you the Browns putting up killer defense, the Jets and Pats engaging in an old-fashioned rock fight, and then the Cards running it down Dallas' throats. I'm reminded of the time the Chiefs and Rams had that ridiculous 100-point dual in 2018 and Dep reacted by complaining that it was an arena league game, which just seemed like coping with the reality that Eli could no longer put up that type of game anymore.

+1

but the teaching of fundamentals, proper amount of contact conditioning, and overall practice time in camp, have all been greatly reduced. Even adding in mini-camps or whatever, the game's been degraded.

Take away two a days, full pads contact, and less time spent on drilling and teaching ... plus, all of the contact that's been legislated out of the game ... and we have the 2023 NFL product. Watered down, at best.

While we're at it, the NCAA needs to fix targeting. What a shitshow. It's even worse than how some NFL officiating crews determine roughing the QB, defenseless receiver, etc.

Now, get off my lawn.

In comment 16220105 SoZKillA said:

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In comment 16220100 Optimus-NY said: Quote: Yet people watch. Betting and fantasy

True dat

better football

In comment 16220645 JonC said:

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and has been declining since Polian pushed the league to grant offenses more space. It opened Pandora's box along with the NFL's greed, and trying to lighten the load for players at the same time. It's painfully obvious. Fundamental football, from tackling to conditioning to mentality to coaching readiness, you name it. A ton of shitty teams and shitty product, including the Giants.

Amen

After the first quarter of the 1:00 games - I didn’t even watch it. It’s all flash and sloppy play. It tailors to the younger generation who play fantasy football (which I admit I do but not as much as I use too), betting games - especially prop bets.

The officiating is horrible. And yes it has evolved just like other professional sports. And don’t give me this nonsense well people want ground and pound. Bullshit, I was watching the chargers game yesterday and Herbert threw something like 26 out of 28 plays. It was boring.

This style maybe for some - but it’s usually for the people who want instant satisfaction.

The college game has also changed considerably without those constraints. The 1993 Notre Dame - Florida State "Game of the Century" is on Youtube in full. At the time, Notre Dame entered the contest undefeated with a QB who barely had 1000 yards passing. Florida State was known for running their 'revolutionary' k-gun offense with Charlie Ward, and now those spread concepts are basically standard across the sport.

In comment 16220314 Daniel in MI said:

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Sorry but it is. These guys are bigger, stronger, faster. The game is faster. The WRs are faster. There’s more specialization. The Os are more intricate. When Lombardi coached the sweep was innovation. Imagine his players facing Mahomes and Andy Reid’s team. Or a back like Saquon and 315 lb linemen than can run like their RBs?

No, it isn't. Play today is crap. Sloppy. Guys are getting hurt because they don't know how to tackle.

The sweep was not an innovation. What was innovative was the attention to execution and detail. You can't run the sweep anymore because (a) the guards are not mobile enough, (b) you can't block below the waste (if you watch films of the Packer sweep, most of the defenders are on the ground), and (c) there isn't enough drill to coordinate everything anyway.

The linemen and linebackers have gotten heavier, unhealthily so. Receivers, running backs, qb's are all similar sized. (Alex Webster was 6' 3" 225 lbs. Alan Ameche was 6' 218. Homer Jones was 6' 2" 215. Bob Hayes was the same size as Tyrek Hill. Jones and Hayes were both pretty fast.)

What they are missing is the 6 weeks of two a day conditioning, blocking, tackling drills and exhibition games where starters actually played.

And Sy's comment on coaching is spot on. Lots of people with "systems" and "schemes" and few who have the ability to adapt what they know to the personnel they have. When Lombardi went to Washington, he adapted to the people he had
and used his highly accurate passer and fast ends to a highly successful short passing attack. Don Shula ran a passing offense with the Colts. When he went to Miami, he aaw what he had and put together a devastating running attack. When he got Marino, he came up with a lightening aerial attack. But those two are in the HOF.

Link
Here - ( New Window )

In comment 16221079 Toth029 said:

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Link Here - ( New Window )

In visual form:

Tackling is players launching themselves with their heads down and no wrap up. They are all going for the highlight hit.

The offensive line basically has to learn on the fly with limited padded practice and pre season. They don't know what works and how to adjust to pass rush cause they are not seeing it at full speed in practice.

In comment 16220720 djm said:

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In comment 16220315 BlueHurricane said: Quote: In comment 16220175 gtt350 said: Quote: the ND Ohio State game was the best footbal game i've seen this season, And the Fla st Clemson game was damn good also This. And it’s not close. Yea...no...not by a long shot. The college game is played by kids. And it looks like it is a game played by kids. It's not the pro game...stop.

Swing and a miss, it’s real football, hell i even enjoy top high school ball