this 11 day break came at a good time this year. through these first 3 games i think their record is more or less at what was the most likely outcome (1-2) tracking with how vegas favored each game but the roster itself has had 2 big storylines driving their performances (or underperformance):
1. an injury decimated offensive line that's allowed more pressure than any other.
2. a defense that has been a lot worse than expectations despite decent health. last year including postseason they only gave up 30+ points twice, both to philly, this year they have already done that twice in 3 games and it would have been 3/3 if AZ didnt miss a kick.
pff grades are a polarizing topic, but using them to compare player's yoy performances to themselves and their pff rank vs. their contract ranks, i think it gives a pretty interesting snapshot that correlates with both of the observations above. the colors below are generally:
green = good (positive impact or improvement)
yellow = neutral (somewhat price relative)
red = bad
purple = scary
on the offense the line has pretty clearly struggled:
some key players on the defense in general have also clearly struggled:
i have some more observations at the link below but the bottomline is the tackling on defense and pass pro on offense need to get better.
hopefully this 11 day break not only gets thomas healthy but gives each respective unit time to make whatever adjustments are needed. on defense i think the most obvious move they need to make is moving Jackson back to outside CB and letting Holmes, McCloud, Flott, and maybe even Simmons compete for the slot. Jackson hasn't had an impact there and while the rookie CBs have survived neither has played to the level Jackson played out there last year. Hawkins has had some really poor tackling too.
Simmons got a yellow in that chart because technically he hasn't played enough snaps to qualify, but going forward i think that needs to change both rushing the passer and in coverage.
as many have noted on other threads the next 3 game set is just as challenging as the first 3 were so seattle is basically a must win with trips to miami and buffalo following that. if they can somehow get to 3-3 after these first 6 the schedule opens up significantly however and they will at that point have at least 1 high quality road win on their resume.
Assessing The Giants Roster At The Mini-bye - (
New Window )
defensively maybe, but indecision can also make things appear that way. they were pretty spirited in AZ and the effort in SF was decent, they just couldn't make any of the plays they needed on defense.
considering he was only graded based on the dallas debacle his numbers actually looked better than i expected.
Of course it is still early, but I’m concerned based on what I’ve see so far.
The only saving grace might be that the teams the Giants played are much better than originally evaluated.
To my novice / non-expert eyes, the 2023 Giants appear to be poorly coached on the defensive side of the ball, with questionable personnel starting and playing time decisions on offense. The offensive play calling, save the 2nd half in Arizona, seems subpar.
And Ward 95/100 on the other side. Color me surprised we have no sacks after 3 games!
Coincidence? I doubt it.
1. I agree Adoree’ should go back outside
2. Brederson should definitely start
3. Ward has 2 tackles in 3 games - don’t see why he is playing
4. Holmes and McCloud will both tackle in the slot
5. Get Hyatt on the field more and have him and Slayton both run deep routes to open up underneath for Waller and Wandale
6. I would play Ezeudu at LG and Brederson at RG to give Neal a steady partner
The team needs to develop and play with a sense of urgency, they just seem flat, not untalented.
I notice a star for Jones, maybe I'm missing something but how are you coming to 13 for his rank?
His cap number is so low this year so I imagine you aren't using that.
The team needs to develop and play with a sense of urgency, they just seem flat, not untalented.
If they need a kick in the ass, that's secondary. What they really need is more than one practice and a dozen quarters of experience and film to learn a system and how to play together in it.
Yeah super interesting to see how well both him and Lawrence grade. Obviously the grades show this too but your LBs have to be playing horribly to have such high grades for key DL and the run defense we've had.
We don’t know the schemes either on offense or defense or what players are being asked to do. But PFF makes their OWN assessment like they know! GTFO!
The “eye” test tells me the team has not looked ready to start the year, and their execution is piss poor. Missed tackles, bad angles, wrong routes (2 guys being in the same area. Poor coaching (10 men several times already this year).
Not impressed with Daboll and what they’ve done so far this year. A regression from last year, not building on it.
The team needs to develop and play with a sense of urgency, they just seem flat, not untalented.
Yes I agree the Giants need a more Michael Strahan, LT, Keith “the Hammer”Hamilton edge about them on D and a protect your QB if he gets hit out of bounds Jumbo Elliot, David Diehl,, Chris Snee edge on O
We don’t know the schemes either on offense or defense or what players are being asked to do. But PFF makes their OWN assessment like they know! GTFO!
The “eye” test tells me the team has not looked ready to start the year, and their execution is piss poor. Missed tackles, bad angles, wrong routes (2 guys being in the same area. Poor coaching (10 men several times already this year).
Not impressed with Daboll and what they’ve done so far this year. A regression from last year, not building on it.
The issue is that if PFF is bad isn't your opinion that much more useless? There are well trained people grading these plays. What is the point of you stating your opinion at all?
I notice a star for Jones, maybe I'm missing something but how are you coming to 13 for his rank?
His cap number is so low this year so I imagine you aren't using that.
yes sorry there's a disclaimer at the link but didn't put it here.
jones' contract is ranked 13th in both AAV and 2023 cap hit. For everyone else I used 2023 cash, but bc of the way QB contracts are get structured that was the 3rd highest cash payout to any QB this year, but I didnt think that was a fair representation of his contract. There's no reasonably argument he's being compensated like a top 3 qb.
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But I'm still in the boat that we have a lot of guys who are better than they're playing and they just need a swift (a word we heard too much this weekend) kick in the ass...
The team needs to develop and play with a sense of urgency, they just seem flat, not untalented.
Yes I agree the Giants need a more Michael Strahan, LT, Keith “the Hammer”Hamilton edge about them on D and a protect your QB if he gets hit out of bounds Jumbo Elliot, David Diehl,, Chris Snee edge on O
I'd take Nick Gates back just for the attitude
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Leonard Williams. Because if he basically agrees with it, they should be discussing a 1 or 2 year extension.
Yeah super interesting to see how well both him and Lawrence grade. Obviously the grades show this too but your LBs have to be playing horribly to have such high grades for key DL and the run defense we've had.
edges have been brutal and gameflow has been their enemy, but despite that they've actually kind of held pollard (14/70), conner (23/106), and cmc (18/85) in check.
last year when the eagles hung 30+ on them it was on huge rushing days where they just mowed the giants down.
i wouldnt say anything has been good, but the way they've been dominated this year has been a little different. against SF it was a lot of run after catch.
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In comment 16220953 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
But I'm still in the boat that we have a lot of guys who are better than they're playing and they just need a swift (a word we heard too much this weekend) kick in the ass...
The team needs to develop and play with a sense of urgency, they just seem flat, not untalented.
Yes I agree the Giants need a more Michael Strahan, LT, Keith “the Hammer”Hamilton edge about them on D and a protect your QB if he gets hit out of bounds Jumbo Elliot, David Diehl,, Chris Snee edge on O
I'd take Nick Gates back just for the attitude
gates hasn't been a super star or anything but letting him and love both go definitely downgraded some of their smart/tough/dependable.
this offseason they tried to get more explosive - which I think was the right call - but they did it at the expense of smart/tough/dependable and so far that's the tradeoff we've seen on the field.
no way to quantify that in the numbers but especially against dallas the team showed a glass jaw they never showed last year.
We don’t know the schemes either on offense or defense or what players are being asked to do. But PFF makes their OWN assessment like they know! GTFO!
The “eye” test tells me the team has not looked ready to start the year, and their execution is piss poor. Missed tackles, bad angles, wrong routes (2 guys being in the same area. Poor coaching (10 men several times already this year).
Not impressed with Daboll and what they’ve done so far this year. A regression from last year, not building on it.
nobody made them the be all end all - but NFL teams validate what they do because many of them are their paying customers.
what they do is watch/rewatch every player and every game. if you disagree with their methodology you are free to spend your time creating your own, if you do lmk and ill add your grades as a column in the next reassessment. ill give you 2 columns if you have any nfl partners by then.
I seem to remember that Sy’s work with Ourlads is used by some teams.
My issue is we seem to use what they say as the gospel on whether guys are good or bad. As is usually the case, it’s NOT that simple and straightforward.
Neal 69th out of 70
Ouch
LT - 50/70
OG - 46/68
C - 30/33
RT - 69/70
Pretty tough to run an offense under those conditions.
I seem to remember that Sy’s work with Ourlads is used by some teams.
My issue is we seem to use what they say as the gospel on whether guys are good or bad. As is usually the case, it’s NOT that simple and straightforward.
i really dont think im the one missing the point. their methodology is out there if you want to actually take issue with something specific instead of just ignorantly say 'they suck but im too lazy to say why they suck'.
are they scouts/analysts/talent evaluators? they are partnered with several if not all nfl teams so you can call them whatever you want to call them.
in the almost half billion dollars worth of extensions they gave out the giants fo seemed to agree with their assessments of lawrence, thomas, and jones didn't they?
imo he doesnt look like a natural football player. different position but kind of david wilson syndrome. never seems to catch the ball cleanly and for as athletic as his testing is it seems to take him a while to get up to speed.
when they signed him i was hoping he'd be a more explosive version of richie james, but so far he's just been a less reliable version.
id have already started transitioning at least 50% of those reps to hyatt.
Neal 69th out of 70
Ouch
hard to see a positive outcome to the season if neal doesn't improve and thibs doesnt at least get back to his level last year. his pressure rate on true pass sets is 1/2 what it was last year.
i used n/a cash ranks for players on rookie deals because the salary rank isnt meaningful in that it's just whatever their rookie slot was.
I put a negative on Thibs because he was a high enough pick his salary is far enough above the median that even on a rookie scale deal the ROI is bad (same is true of Neal since they were both picked in almost the same slots and have performed equally poorly this year).
yes just bad math on that one. some of the columns i had automated in excel others i was kind of adjusting on the fly (poorly).
The reality is we are 0/5 on those things. And some guys have even regressed.
Waller has been a nice addition, but he’s not what he was in Oakland 2-3 years ago. Okereke isn’t anything special. Campbell is a lateral move from James. They lost vets who were solid, steady players last year (Love, Feliciano, Moreau) and replaced them with rookies or young players who have had ups-and-downs.
Then, guys who had career years last year (Dex, Thomas, SB) have regressed a bit or been injured. And that’s how we arrived here, with a roster that is only slightly better.
what the nfl teams get is im sure confidential/proprietary even from each other (and im sure none of them care about pff's public data).
it's the same company though so it's not a huge that some of the data is collected with similar methodologies even if the outputs are different.
Surprised JMS is ranked that low league wide.
I know Sexy is ranked #2, but it's telling that the 9ers have 3 of the top ten IDLs.