In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either? [/quotes
Well Eli did not puke on his 2 Super Bowl winning drives like McNabb did on his losing drive.
In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Well Eli did not puke on his 2 Super Bowl winning drives like McNabb did on his losing drive.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
RE: People can get annoyed all they want about who says what
and the Eagles feasted on a poor NFCE and overall NFC. Things got a lot harder for him and the Eagles starting in 2005. When I think of those Eagles teams I think of the D first.
Agree that the Giants and Jones control the narrative moving forward and it will be a team effort how it plays out.
Nothing wrong with his opinion but not factoring in the variables around the QB is a bit short sighted imv.
RE: RE: People can get annoyed all they want about who says what
But it is up to DJ and this team to change the narrative.
That is indeed the answer.
When Jones is in the prime-time slot, he's 1-11. You can try to nuance around that over and over and over, but it's a miserable result.
Look at Cousins. He's been a very productive regular season QB. But when he's in the prime-time slot, he's been a disaster, too.
That sticks.
I think it is the way he plays too, the "gun-shy" nature. People would think higher about an uneven QB making big plays and bad ones than one that is risk averse.
People were quick to dismiss the 49er player comments but what they were saying was an accurate assessment...
Giant fans will say Herbert doesn't win enough despite the Chargers having a poor head coach and a QB who has fantastic production. Yet, for the Giants it's an OL issue. It's a lack of weapons.
Giant fans just as guilty as criticizing a QB without context when it isn't their own.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
...are performing better than Mr "twenty percent of the cap", it is open season for criticism. From friend and foe alike.
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
I dislike McNabb, but this part of his job. DJ does need to play better. Next game will be a good barometer. Andy Dalton played really well with people in his face instantly almost every down.
...are performing better than Mr "twenty percent of the cap", it is open season for criticism. From friend and foe alike.
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
Yep - he has to do it all by himself. Let’s hope the other 10 players continue at their high level of playing on offense. To go along with the defense who can’t stop a soul.
Like I said same 4-5 people every thread saying the same thing..
Nobody is sitting around micro analyzing Jones. If he plays well he will be lauded—if he doesn’t he won’t be. Nobody cares about an OL or who is hurt etc. we can have those discussions here, but don’t expect the rest of the world to have them or care.
There's really no reason to be offended. This is the way the rest of the fan bases and teams view Jones. Win, put up top 10 stats, and roll out a top 10 offense. Others may nitpick and have immaterial criticisms if that were the case, but we haven't even gotten to that point.
You can't criticize Burrow, Herbert, etc. and then be offended when Jones catches flack. We know the shortcomings around Jones from a team perspective, the rest of the football world isn't excusing it like the BBI fan base.
RE: If DJ does a choke and puke in a playoff game, then McNabb can
If DJ wins an NFCCG, he can puke in the Super Bowl.
Until then, this stupid attempt to discredit McNabb's POV is childish. Some of you act like it's better to never reach the big game because it means you can't fail there.
DJ is 1-11 in prime time games. But sure, let's attack the critic because he choked spectacularly in a game that's bigger than any game DJ has ever played.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
But if Jones became even 75% of Mcnabb that would be fantastic
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
RE: Yeah BBI may have a never ending string of excuses for DJ
but the rest of the world expects a $40M QB to look competitive against contenders.
I feel like the same people mock Dak and turn around and are excuse acrobats for DJ and that makes zero sense.
Dak has had top receivers to throw to since he has been in the league (Lamb, Dez, Cooper, Witten). And he hasn't looked excellent in the playoffs (vs the same 49ers) and he looked pretty underwhelming yesterday against the same defense Daniel Jones beat a week ago with Josh Ezeudu at LT.
These same shitheads will take the time of day to criticize Jones. But never the other overpaid QBs like Deshaun Watson and Kyler Murray. McNabb can fuck off. Jim Johnson carried his ass and still didn't win anything.
Daniel Jones does not have the great supporting cast, there is no doubt. But let's he honest, everything he plays a big game in primetime, he has sucked. He had not once carried this team to a win over a good or a contending team, and he deserves the criticism for that. With that said, I do believe in Jones, and I do believe he will continue to improve this season. But you guys that get sensitive to criticism for Jones, he is not above criticism, and still does not pick up secondary rwcievers well. That first read isn't thete he is not good enough. If he were, we are not losing 40-0 against Dallas. Come on now. Shit. Time to shut up and let this play out. Dedending Jones right now is a horrible look. He is not competitive against contending teams. He liaes this next game at home against Seattle. Then he deserves criticism. So let's watch and learn, instead of saying like this QB had spread proven himself. He has not.
...are performing better than Mr "twenty percent of the cap", it is open season for criticism. From friend and foe alike.
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
The Cards ran for 200 yards yesterday. They ran for 150 against the Giants. Do you see the Giants doing that? Gardner Minshew averaged 5.2 yards per passing attempt yesterday. That’s nearly a half yard below what Zack Wilson has done so far this season. Brock Purdy??? He’s converting long third downs on passes that are behind the line of scrimmage. Stop the nonsense.
And will be shit on when he gets into the Hall of Fame.
Let it play out and ignore the noise.
That being said, Herbert should be 0 and 3 and Burrow could be 0 and 3 with some awful numbers. Herbert’s game winning touchdown should have been intercepted and their coach almost handed the Vikings the game to Cousins—someone who has gotten so much money but lost to DJ in the playoffs.
Tua was a busy but has a great team now with excellent coaching and just put up 70.
There are so many factors going into a team being good.
RE: RE: Yeah BBI may have a never ending string of excuses for DJ
but the rest of the world expects a $40M QB to look competitive against contenders.
I feel like the same people mock Dak and turn around and are excuse acrobats for DJ and that makes zero sense.
Dak has had top receivers to throw to since he has been in the league (Lamb, Dez, Cooper, Witten). And he hasn't looked excellent in the playoffs (vs the same 49ers) and he looked pretty underwhelming yesterday against the same defense Daniel Jones beat a week ago with Josh Ezeudu at LT.
These same shitheads will take the time of day to criticize Jones. But never the other overpaid QBs like Deshaun Watson and Kyler Murray. McNabb can fuck off. Jim Johnson carried his ass and still didn't win anything.
Some of you don't seem to understand the difference between stats and asterisks.
I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones.
And the point is even if you do that other people are not going to. Only the diehards here do that and the thing is you can do that all you want and you can complain about his cast.
But Jones has spent more of his career looking bad than good and for some fans and most of the outside world that doesn't sit well with the money he's getting paid. Especially when he looks afraid to throw the ball. That is the last thing you want
RE: RE: I know we hate Mcnabb because he’s an Eagle
But if Jones became even 75% of Mcnabb that would be fantastic
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
Completely different era of football, and taking that quite too literal. How many NFC championship games did Mcnabb make?
The formula Football Reference uses undervalues the post-season in my view, but he's no Aikman. Aikman numbers are low for a HOF inductee, but his post-season success gets him there. Football Reference QB Hall of Fame Monitor - ( New Window )
Against a poorly coached, and a bad defensive team. Sorry, but the Vikings were not contenders. This season is proving that out. Many are saying this season is also proving Jones to be a farce. So face the fucking music and stop the crying. Let's cheer for them to improve and to prove tve critics wrong. Not on the fucking website, in the fucking field where it counts.
And will be shit on when he gets into the Hall of Fame.
Let it play out and ignore the noise.
That being said, Herbert should be 0 and 3 and Burrow could be 0 and 3 with some awful numbers. Herbert’s game winning touchdown should have been intercepted and their coach almost handed the Vikings the game to Cousins—someone who has gotten so much money but lost to DJ in the playoffs.
Tua was a busy but has a great team now with excellent coaching and just put up 70.
There are so many factors going into a team being good.
Here are Herbert’s game by game numbers:
40-47, 405 yards, 3tds, 0 INT
27-41, 305 yards, 2 TDS, 0 INT
23-33, 229 yards, 1 td, 0 INT
The Chargers are averaging 29 ppg, without their best offensive weapon the last two weeks. Herbert should be 0-3? Daniel Jones should also be 0-3, then no? The Chargers two losses are by a combined 5 points.
Good grief some of you need
RE: People can get annoyed all they want about who says what
For all those yards, yet we hear, from our Oline Guru how this ine, The Cards,is horrible, and you all believe it. They may not be great, I agree, but they shut us out in sacks, ran all over us, then did it to Dallas. Maybe some people are not some Guru. Maybe they are fans like us. Use your own brains.
Daniel Jones does not have the great supporting cast, there is no doubt. But let's he honest, everything he plays a big game in primetime, he has sucked. He had not once carried this team to a win over a good or a contending team, and he deserves the criticism for that. With that said, I do believe in Jones, and I do believe he will continue to improve this season. But you guys that get sensitive to criticism for Jones, he is not above criticism, and still does not pick up secondary rwcievers well. That first read isn't thete he is not good enough. If he were, we are not losing 40-0 against Dallas. Come on now. Shit. Time to shut up and let this play out. Dedending Jones right now is a horrible look. He is not competitive against contending teams. He liaes this next game at home against Seattle. Then he deserves criticism. So let's watch and learn, instead of saying like this QB had spread proven himself. He has not.
Somehow, a postseason game doesn’t fit into your asinine definition of “a big game”.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
That'll go on until he proves everyone wrong, and probably for a while afterward. If the Giants play better, and DJ plays better, some of them will shut up. Though, as we've seen, a QB can win two Super Bowls for the Giants and still get "shot on," as someone said above.
Underrated phenomenon: Believing is seeing, not the other way around. It applies in a lot of things.
Next week there will be a new Jones or QB thread and they will say the same thing over and over again.
The giants stink. Which makes everyone look bad. Stop over analyzing and comparing. Until we get some decent players (and it looks like coaching) - it doesn’t matter who is QBing.
Daniel Jones does not have the great supporting cast, there is no doubt. But let's he honest, everything he plays a big game in primetime, he has sucked. He had not once carried this team to a win over a good or a contending team, and he deserves the criticism for that. With that said, I do believe in Jones, and I do believe he will continue to improve this season. But you guys that get sensitive to criticism for Jones, he is not above criticism, and still does not pick up secondary rwcievers well. That first read isn't thete he is not good enough. If he were, we are not losing 40-0 against Dallas. Come on now. Shit. Time to shut up and let this play out. Dedending Jones right now is a horrible look. He is not competitive against contending teams. He liaes this next game at home against Seattle. Then he deserves criticism. So let's watch and learn, instead of saying like this QB had spread proven himself. He has not.
I just don’t like Eagles quarterbacks slamming Giants quarterbacks or any other Eagle slamming Giants and that goes all the way back to Chuck Bednerik cheapshotting Frank Gifford in 1960.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
Your nomenclature (LOL at that term on a football board) was not factually accurate so I cheekily wondered if the road playoff game counted or the 3 TD comeback counted vs. an Arizona team that might not be that bad after all.
As you likely know, Giants fans have a long history of blaming the quarterback for everything (Simms, Eli, now Jones). You call Jones meh, and you’re welcome to that opinion, but some of us actually see a world where if he’s not pressured on 50% of his drop backs and he’s supported by a defense that can actually tackle and get off the field on 3rd down, that Jones may be a lot more than meh.
It’s a team sport, Mr. Dunk.
The simplest way to silence the critics is to perform.
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
The Seahawks are a decent team, but they're giving up 30 points a game. No excuses. He can't control how our defense plays but Jones needs to put up 27-30 points Monday night.
RE: People can get annoyed all they want about who says what
But it is up to DJ and this team to change the narrative.
Right on brother. The amount of people on this site who get butt hurt by comments like this, taken out of context or not, just amazes me. Not very mature
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
Your nomenclature (LOL at that term on a football board) was not factually accurate so I cheekily wondered if the road playoff game counted or the 3 TD comeback counted vs. an Arizona team that might not be that bad after all.
As you likely know, Giants fans have a long history of blaming the quarterback for everything (Simms, Eli, now Jones). You call Jones meh, and you’re welcome to that opinion, but some of us actually see a world where if he’s not pressured on 50% of his drop backs and he’s supported by a defense that can actually tackle and get off the field on 3rd down, that Jones may be a lot more than meh.
It’s a team sport, Mr. Dunk.
Week 2 vs. Arizona is the equivalent of the Super Bowl?
The team is just that a team. He brought back the Giants against Arizona and is not the problem. The team is just that and not one player wins the game, though one player can make a difference.
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
The team is just that a team. He brought back the Giants against Arizona and is not the problem. The team is just that and not one player wins the game, though one player can make a difference.
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
All 11 guys on offense need to play better. Not 10 + 1. All 11.
And the 100 or so carriage returns after your post were unnecessary.
The team is just that a team. He brought back the Giants against Arizona and is not the problem. The team is just that and not one player wins the game, though one player can make a difference.
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
So 10 other guys on offense but only he brought them back?
RE: DJ is still generally afraid to turn the ball loose.
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
That’s hilarious because if Engram could catch, we probably win that shitty division in 2020 at 7-9 or 8-8. And the clown show would still be running things.
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
I can't really think of a player who left Eli and produced better numbers. Vishante Shiancoe, I guess, but that was because he went from second TE here to first in Minnesota.
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
That’s hilarious because if Engram could catch, we probably win that shitty division in 2020 at 7-9 or 8-8. And the clown show would still be running things.
It's also hilarious that Barkley and Waller seem to have developed the dreaded dropsies affliction since Engram's departure. But yes, let's stick to the script on Engram being the problem there. Nevermind that the issue still exists even though the supposed culprit is gone.
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
I can't really think of a player who left Eli and produced better numbers. Vishante Shiancoe, I guess, but that was because he went from second TE here to first in Minnesota.
Eli is an interesting case:
Toomer was too old to produce when he left the Giants (didn't make it out of TC with the chiefs)
Burress shot himself and was out of football for 2 years or so
Nicks suffered lower leg injuries that helped him depart the Giants which more than likely prevented him from putting good numbers again
Cruz suffered a terrible injury and never left the Giants
Steve Smith suffered a terrible injury and was never the same.
Kevin Boss went to oakland but retired shortly after due to concussions.
Beckham is the best example of putting up good numbers after leaving Manning.
Shockey I think put up pretty good numbers for the Saints
I didn't want Engram back--but why is he better under Lawrence than Jones? Why did Barkley's receiving numbers crash with Jones as QB when compared to a cooked Eli Manning?
I think the answer is that Jones is just not a prolific passer. It doesn't mean he doesn't do other things well. But I think elite passing production is the most critical factor to winning championships.
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Jones is being paid like a top 10 QB but when you zoom out beyond individual games he hasn’t earned that by any stretch as a passer.
And I’m not sure how people would not be embarrassed to have an opposing team say your teams QB was afraid to throw the ball. He looked that way so it isn’t shocking to hear that.
Yeah that isn’t the most common refrain… or sight…
I didn't want Engram back--but why is he better under Lawrence than Jones? Why did Barkley's receiving numbers crash with Jones as QB when compared to a cooked Eli Manning?
I think the answer is that Jones is just not a prolific passer. It doesn't mean he doesn't do other things well. But I think elite passing production is the most critical factor to winning championships.
I’ve watched bits and pieces of Engram with JAX. They use him a bunch on TE screens, leaks to the flat, designed plays to get him in space where he can use him ample athleticism and speed to pick up yards. Not much over the middle in traffic, which as we all unfortunately recall, was not his strong suit.
RE: RE: Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
You are making my point thanks. I meant specifically for Engram not sure if that is him but either way that is my point. You play with Jones who has been plagued by holding the ball too long and confidence issues you are going to play tighter and drop more balls. Than Eli, “ice in his veins” manning.
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Occam's razor seems to fit here, pal.
Not saying they have the yips. Barkley dropped one pass which led to the Arizona pick. The pick vs. Dallas - Barkley never saw Diggs, and it was a great play by him.
Waller and Jones have worked together for a grand total of 3 actual games. It does take actual time to establish chemistry, but you will call that an excuse and call me a loser fan and tell me to GTFOH.
RE: RE: Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
RE: RE: RE: RE: There is some real unintentional comedy here
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Occam's razor seems to fit here, pal.
Not saying they have the yips. Barkley dropped one pass which led to the Arizona pick. The pick vs. Dallas - Barkley never saw Diggs, and it was a great play by him.
Waller and Jones have worked together for a grand total of 3 actual games. It does take actual time to establish chemistry, but you will call that an excuse and call me a loser fan and tell me to GTFOH.
I'm just saying that you're a DJ fan above being a Giants fan. You're willing to blame other Giants for DJ's shortcomings but not place any responsibility on DJ himself.
We can have legitimate debates re Jones, but to put the blame on him for Engram having an absurd drop rate is just ridiculous. And then to further offer up the opinion, that (1) DJ lacks confident, and (2) that lack of confidence is what caused Engram's problems is just absurd. There is just no support for either, and, in fact, it's just nonsensical.
BTW, Engram had 11 drops as a rookie with Eli as his QB.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
Has anyone seen Strouds numbers with just as bad as an offensive line as DJ and a well below average WR corp?
Are we going to ignore th quality of his opponents? Ravens have a poor pass rush, the Colts are te Colts, the Jaguars are a decent defense but certainly not the Cowboys or the Niners. And btw about 60 yards Stroud's passing yards Sunday were the result of a busted play where there was not a defender within 20 yards of the receiver
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
I am indeed the same fella, but with quite a few more grays since my BBWC era (if TSwift can have eras, so can I).
offense did with their patchwork OL Sunday. One of the top RBs, one of the top WRs, good complimentary receivers, good QB, and scored a grand total of 18 points against the Cardinals.
The reality is that the vast majortiy of offenses cannot function without decent pass blocking. There are 2 maybe 3 QBs that cannot overcome it. But against the Comboys and the Niners, the OL made it essentially impossible to function.
With the same posters just in different threads… it’s the same old song…
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
Do you really think it takes years to see the same people say the same things in each thread? I bet there have been 15-20 threads since the start of the season where you and a few others have said the same thing kver and over and over again.
It’s really easy to see. Sorry if this upsets you.
Dave Brown looked like he was going to cement George Young’ status as a genius. He played fairly basic ball control football and I believe we were 3-0 going into New Orleans.
Then he threw a pick 6 before halftime and the world realized if you got to him, his game went to hell.
With the same posters just in different threads… it’s the same old song…
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
Do you really think it takes years to see the same people say the same things in each thread? I bet there have been 15-20 threads since the start of the season where you and a few others have said the same thing kver and over and over again.
It’s really easy to see. Sorry if this upsets you.
Yeah, whatever. What's your previous handle?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Would be interested in Catch rate with Eli Vs. Jones
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
I am indeed the same fella, but with quite a few more grays since my BBWC era (if TSwift can have eras, so can I).
Cheers brother. My apologies on my tone as well. I’m from Jersey, you know how it is. I hear you on those grays. The wife says they make me look distinguished but I think she’s full of it ;)
Good one. I was posting on that thread when he said that. Sorry, no previous handles. Sorry to disappoint. I have more important things in life to worry about than what you think. I am trying to outlast my doctor’s predictions of having 6-8 months to live. I have other priorities than trying to be right on a message board.
Is your Dave Brown story conveying a concern that DCs have figured out Jones? I’ve been concerned that his running and roll outs are being contained more than last season. That’s based on my viewing, not stats.
Is your Dave Brown story conveying a concern that DCs have figured out Jones? I’ve been concerned that his running and roll outs are being contained more than last season. That’s based on my viewing, not stats.
Partly, I think DC’s like Quinn and the SF DC are telling their guys “don’t bite on the play action”, just get to Jones as fast as you can. Their OL is struggling so let’s make them drive 10 plays to score. 3-5 yard runs aren’t gonna kill them because eventually there will be a penalty or a sack or a negative play.
I don’t know the numbers and it’s a small sample size but it seems like we suck on plays that are behind the sticks. In other words, 1st and 15, 1st and 20, 2nd and 15, and so on. If the defense can just hunt Jones and not have to worry about a screen or a draw, it’s not pretty.
Would love to see Kafka adapt and come out with either heavy run script next week or work in the draw/screen game much more. Think we also have to get Hyatt in the game, send him deep. Even as a decoy, his speed must be respected. Let’s let Jones get into the rhythm he got into in the 2H vs. Zona.
I still wish someone had late hit him after his antics with the phone @ the end of the Giants Eagles '08 divisional game. I wanted to jump through the screen & kick his ass.
Ball out and wreck Seattle. The narrative will change…. for a week.
Yep. It's a simple as that. Jones needs to have big games with a stand-alone audience. He had a great game in Minnesota for a playoff win, but not many people respected that Vikings team, especially the defense. Now they are 0-3.
Start beating Dallas, Philly, etc. and the narrative will change. Win a shootout against Miami. The narrative will change.
It'll change for a week if we beat Seattle. Then, if we lose to the 'Fins & Jones looks blah or worse, people will be bashing him again.
The amount of shit this kid takes from the national media is absurd. Yes, he's no Mahomes or Allen. But he's not some dude either. He's a middle tier QB. But people see the coin he got @ the likely expense of #26...& there we go.
DJ is going to need an entire season of plus performances to change the optics on him and in the mean time he will tune the noise out like he’s had to for 4+ years.
RE: RE: RE: I know we hate Mcnabb because he’s an Eagle
But if Jones became even 75% of Mcnabb that would be fantastic
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
Completely different era of football, and taking that quite too literal. How many NFC championship games did Mcnabb make?
Ok, fair. However, can you define what the 75% McNabb is that you would find to be "fantastic?"
The amount of shit this kid takes from the national media is absurd. Yes, he's no Mahomes or Allen. But he's not some dude either. He's a middle tier QB. But people see the coin he got @ the likely expense of #26...& there we go.
Is it? Look at the incessant hammering Mayfield has taken in the media. Darnold, former QB in NY, has been kicked around like a tin can. Goff was a pinata, especially after his hideous SB performance and eventual trade to Detroit.
I could go on and on. But the criticism that Jones takes is not unusual at al vis-a-vis other highly selected QBs.
As many mentioned, Jones controls his fate. Play consistently better and the cacophony of criticism fades.
Jones is being paid like a top 10 QB but when you zoom out beyond individual games he hasn’t earned that by any stretch as a passer.
And I’m not sure how people would not be embarrassed to have an opposing team say your teams QB was afraid to throw the ball. He looked that way so it isn’t shocking to hear that.
Yeah that isn’t the most common refrain… or sight…
Just an aside here, can someone tell me when it became fashionable for other players to criticize those in the same profession, especially when they were no super stars themselves. This was never heard of years ago. This kid is taking an enormous, unwarranted beating by other players, so called TV experts and even some Giant fans. Then is expected to go out and play flawlessly.
DJ is going to need an entire season of plus performances to change the optics on him and in the mean time he will tune the noise out like he’s had to for 4+ years.
There's no shutting up IDIOTS!!! Stupid is stupid. They'll never go away..
has way more talent then Jones, he was talked about being the number 1 pick for months... because he is very talented. Jones barely sniffed talks of being in the top 10. Does that mean Jones can't and won't become a better QB then Stroud? Who knows, only time will tell. But for being a rookie, Stroud is playing very well
has way more talent then Jones, he was talked about being the number 1 pick for months... because he is very talented. Jones barely sniffed talks of being in the top 10. Does that mean Jones can't and won't become a better QB then Stroud? Who knows, only time will tell. But for being a rookie, Stroud is playing very well
I've seen bits and pieces of Stroud's games, and he looks very poised. He had an outstanding QBR in the win in Jax yesterday.
Anyone who thinks Jones is above criticism at this point...
I don't know what you're watching. They clearly have a number of issues and Jones is not at the top. But, for 2.5 games, he is certainly among them. Even including the great playoff performance last year, Jones has 1 half of football where he showed he can put a team on his back and win with his arm over the last couple of years. Last year was a very nice bounce back season in a prove it year. But, he "proved" it with his legs and a heavy dose of Barkley.
RE: Anyone who thinks Jones is above criticism at this point...
I don't know what you're watching. They clearly have a number of issues and Jones is not at the top. But, for 2.5 games, he is certainly among them. Even including the great playoff performance last year, Jones has 1 half of football where he showed he can put a team on his back and win with his arm over the last couple of years. Last year was a very nice bounce back season in a prove it year. But, he "proved" it with his legs and a heavy dose of Barkley.
I haven't seen anyone say Jones is above criticism. He certainly is not. This whole team deserves criticism right now, including upstream of the players. It's not a good product right they are putting out on the field right now.
This is what it boils down to. Either shut them up, or deal with it.
I feel like the same people mock Dak and turn around and are excuse acrobats for DJ and that makes zero sense.
Quote:
But it is up to DJ and this team to change the narrative.
This is what it boils down to. Either shut them up, or deal with it.
This x100.
2019 BBI Archived Thread - ( New Window )
[quote] If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either? [/quotes
Well Eli did not puke on his 2 Super Bowl winning drives like McNabb did on his losing drive.
People are going to criticize until Jones proves otherwise.
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Well Eli did not puke on his 2 Super Bowl winning drives like McNabb did on his losing drive.
Cool, who said anything about Eli?
But we can roast McNabb and mock him, and be overly pleased with Daboll and one season of achievement in a dark ages.
Some of you are too sensitive and 'tribal'......goes with making big money.
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
That is indeed the answer.
When Jones is in the prime-time slot, he's 1-11. You can try to nuance around that over and over and over, but it's a miserable result.
Look at Cousins. He's been a very productive regular season QB. But when he's in the prime-time slot, he's been a disaster, too.
That sticks.
Agree that the Giants and Jones control the narrative moving forward and it will be a team effort how it plays out.
Nothing wrong with his opinion but not factoring in the variables around the QB is a bit short sighted imv.
Quote:
But it is up to DJ and this team to change the narrative.
That is indeed the answer.
When Jones is in the prime-time slot, he's 1-11. You can try to nuance around that over and over and over, but it's a miserable result.
Look at Cousins. He's been a very productive regular season QB. But when he's in the prime-time slot, he's been a disaster, too.
That sticks.
I think it is the way he plays too, the "gun-shy" nature. People would think higher about an uneven QB making big plays and bad ones than one that is risk averse.
People were quick to dismiss the 49er player comments but what they were saying was an accurate assessment...
Giant fans just as guilty as criticizing a QB without context when it isn't their own.
Quote:
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
That was the excuse with DJ last year "no weapons"
He looks very good throwing to a group similar to ours last year...
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
Yep - he has to do it all by himself. Let’s hope the other 10 players continue at their high level of playing on offense. To go along with the defense who can’t stop a soul.
Like I said same 4-5 people every thread saying the same thing..
That was the excuse with DJ last year "no weapons"
He looks very good throwing to a group similar to ours last year...
And without his LT
You can't criticize Burrow, Herbert, etc. and then be offended when Jones catches flack. We know the shortcomings around Jones from a team perspective, the rest of the football world isn't excusing it like the BBI fan base.
Shouldn’t Jones have to make a Super Bowl first?
If DJ wins an NFCCG, he can puke in the Super Bowl.
Until then, this stupid attempt to discredit McNabb's POV is childish. Some of you act like it's better to never reach the big game because it means you can't fail there.
DJ is 1-11 in prime time games. But sure, let's attack the critic because he choked spectacularly in a game that's bigger than any game DJ has ever played.
You beat me to it!
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In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
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If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
I feel like the same people mock Dak and turn around and are excuse acrobats for DJ and that makes zero sense.
Dak has had top receivers to throw to since he has been in the league (Lamb, Dez, Cooper, Witten). And he hasn't looked excellent in the playoffs (vs the same 49ers) and he looked pretty underwhelming yesterday against the same defense Daniel Jones beat a week ago with Josh Ezeudu at LT.
These same shitheads will take the time of day to criticize Jones. But never the other overpaid QBs like Deshaun Watson and Kyler Murray. McNabb can fuck off. Jim Johnson carried his ass and still didn't win anything.
Instead of complaining about the critics, how about DJ having a top ten type quarterback game against a mediocre defense next Monday night to silence the critics? Perhaps three hundred yards passing, three TDs with his arm and legs, and no interceptions? How about beating a winning team for just the sixth time in his more than four years as our quarterback? How about that?
Or will he simply become 1-12 in prime time games and essentially turn this season into another 2017?
The Cards ran for 200 yards yesterday. They ran for 150 against the Giants. Do you see the Giants doing that? Gardner Minshew averaged 5.2 yards per passing attempt yesterday. That’s nearly a half yard below what Zack Wilson has done so far this season. Brock Purdy??? He’s converting long third downs on passes that are behind the line of scrimmage. Stop the nonsense.
Let it play out and ignore the noise.
That being said, Herbert should be 0 and 3 and Burrow could be 0 and 3 with some awful numbers. Herbert’s game winning touchdown should have been intercepted and their coach almost handed the Vikings the game to Cousins—someone who has gotten so much money but lost to DJ in the playoffs.
Tua was a busy but has a great team now with excellent coaching and just put up 70.
There are so many factors going into a team being good.
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but the rest of the world expects a $40M QB to look competitive against contenders.
I feel like the same people mock Dak and turn around and are excuse acrobats for DJ and that makes zero sense.
Dak has had top receivers to throw to since he has been in the league (Lamb, Dez, Cooper, Witten). And he hasn't looked excellent in the playoffs (vs the same 49ers) and he looked pretty underwhelming yesterday against the same defense Daniel Jones beat a week ago with Josh Ezeudu at LT.
These same shitheads will take the time of day to criticize Jones. But never the other overpaid QBs like Deshaun Watson and Kyler Murray. McNabb can fuck off. Jim Johnson carried his ass and still didn't win anything.
Some of you don't seem to understand the difference between stats and asterisks.
I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones.
And the point is even if you do that other people are not going to. Only the diehards here do that and the thing is you can do that all you want and you can complain about his cast.
But Jones has spent more of his career looking bad than good and for some fans and most of the outside world that doesn't sit well with the money he's getting paid. Especially when he looks afraid to throw the ball. That is the last thing you want
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But if Jones became even 75% of Mcnabb that would be fantastic
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
Completely different era of football, and taking that quite too literal. How many NFC championship games did Mcnabb make?
Football Reference QB Hall of Fame Monitor - ( New Window )
Let it play out and ignore the noise.
That being said, Herbert should be 0 and 3 and Burrow could be 0 and 3 with some awful numbers. Herbert’s game winning touchdown should have been intercepted and their coach almost handed the Vikings the game to Cousins—someone who has gotten so much money but lost to DJ in the playoffs.
Tua was a busy but has a great team now with excellent coaching and just put up 70.
There are so many factors going into a team being good.
Here are Herbert’s game by game numbers:
40-47, 405 yards, 3tds, 0 INT
27-41, 305 yards, 2 TDS, 0 INT
23-33, 229 yards, 1 td, 0 INT
The Chargers are averaging 29 ppg, without their best offensive weapon the last two weeks. Herbert should be 0-3? Daniel Jones should also be 0-3, then no? The Chargers two losses are by a combined 5 points.
Good grief some of you need
He s already done things they said he would never do. Jones will always be judged by his last bad pass, he will never changed the narrative for some
That s the was it is with most false narratives.
The throwing around of stats, without context, the latest, Jones is back to his turnover problems, is prime example
Somehow, a postseason game doesn’t fit into your asinine definition of “a big game”.
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
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In comment 16220918 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
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If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
Underrated phenomenon: Believing is seeing, not the other way around. It applies in a lot of things.
Next week there will be a new Jones or QB thread and they will say the same thing over and over again.
The giants stink. Which makes everyone look bad. Stop over analyzing and comparing. Until we get some decent players (and it looks like coaching) - it doesn’t matter who is QBing.
I just don’t like Eagles quarterbacks slamming Giants quarterbacks or any other Eagle slamming Giants and that goes all the way back to Chuck Bednerik cheapshotting Frank Gifford in 1960.
Played great and won a playoff game.
What has Murray, who has $80M more guaranteed looked?
Played great and won a playoff game.
What has Murray, who has $80M more guaranteed looked?
Cool, DJ is better than Murray. What's the trophy for that award?
Have higher standards.
And DJ deserves criticism along with everyone else. Who really cares?
That said, it's hilarious how the same 5 or so people swoop in and create a 7000-post thread whenever this kind of stuff gets posted about DJ... lol
Wasn't Mcnabb taken out of a playoff game because he was TIRED?
Answer
No one.
Jones may stink but that is a moot point.
Not even Mahomes would have played well last week on the Giant offense.
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In comment 16220936 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16220918 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
Your nomenclature (LOL at that term on a football board) was not factually accurate so I cheekily wondered if the road playoff game counted or the 3 TD comeback counted vs. an Arizona team that might not be that bad after all.
As you likely know, Giants fans have a long history of blaming the quarterback for everything (Simms, Eli, now Jones). You call Jones meh, and you’re welcome to that opinion, but some of us actually see a world where if he’s not pressured on 50% of his drop backs and he’s supported by a defense that can actually tackle and get off the field on 3rd down, that Jones may be a lot more than meh.
It’s a team sport, Mr. Dunk.
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
Right on brother. The amount of people on this site who get butt hurt by comments like this, taken out of context or not, just amazes me. Not very mature
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In comment 16220990 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16220936 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16220918 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16220894 Gatorade Dunk said:
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If Donovan McNabb is "Never Won the Big One" then what is DJ? Never Won the Small Ones Either?
Does a road playoff game in a hostile environment not count at all?
How about two weeks ago when the Cardinals had the Giants down 28-7 and DJ put the team on his back for the comeback win? Perhaps in light of Arizona’s efforts over the last 3 weeks, maybe they’re not as bad as the talking heads said.
McNabb can say whatever he wants but the Daniel Jones story is still not even half written.
Fair point. Do you want to let Eric know that there's no point in having BBI since we can't fairly discuss players until after their career is complete?
And let's also make sure we apply the same level of consideration to all players, not just the QB.
I'm sure Ximines, for example, will be excited to know that the fanbase has universally decided that his story, like DJ's, is still not even half written.
So a fair discussion begins with you stating that DJ should be categorized as “Never Having Won the Small Ones”? Hmmm.
And LOL at comparing an overdrafted small school DE project to the starting quarterback. If Ximines’ Giants story is not on its last pages, that would be one hell of a plot twist. To date, his story is a children’s pop up book and little Billy’s eyelids are getting real heavy.
I have no patience for people who lack the faculties to pick up on the context that existed before they arrived.
The OP called McNabb "Never Won the Big One" as a way to discredit McNabb's criticism of DJ. But if that's the nickname that the OP is assigning to McNabb, what's the nickname for DJ?
Hence the one I made up using the exact same nomenclature as the OP. It wasn't an especially complicated reference. I'm surprised it required any explanation at all, but here we are.
You guys are fucking wusses when it comes to outside criticism of this team, and you give way more runway to our meh QB than you do for any other meh player on the roster.
Your nomenclature (LOL at that term on a football board) was not factually accurate so I cheekily wondered if the road playoff game counted or the 3 TD comeback counted vs. an Arizona team that might not be that bad after all.
As you likely know, Giants fans have a long history of blaming the quarterback for everything (Simms, Eli, now Jones). You call Jones meh, and you’re welcome to that opinion, but some of us actually see a world where if he’s not pressured on 50% of his drop backs and he’s supported by a defense that can actually tackle and get off the field on 3rd down, that Jones may be a lot more than meh.
It’s a team sport, Mr. Dunk.
Week 2 vs. Arizona is the equivalent of the Super Bowl?
GTFOH. Loser fans for a loser team.
Answer
No one.
Jones may stink but that is a moot point.
Not even Mahomes would have played well last week on the Giant offense.
Ok, if that's a fair POV, so is this one:
Which functional NFL offense does DJ step in for the incumbent QB and improve that offense?
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
All 11 guys on offense need to play better. Not 10 + 1. All 11.
And the 100 or so carriage returns after your post were unnecessary.
The offensive line needs to play better, period. 17 hurries in the last game and 10 sacks so far this year. That is not on Jones but the line.
So 10 other guys on offense but only he brought them back?
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There are plays to be made he's just not making. He deserves the criticism.
At this point, it isn't clear if it is Jones or Kafka afraid to air it out...or both.
Well, it could be that multiple head coaches and offensive coordinators have all just been afraid to air it out.
Or people can finally just accept Occam's razor.
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Dak is Cousins 2.0
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
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In comment 16221033 Toth029 said:
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Dak is Cousins 2.0
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
That’s hilarious because if Engram could catch, we probably win that shitty division in 2020 at 7-9 or 8-8. And the clown show would still be running things.
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
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In comment 16221107 NoGainDayne said:
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In comment 16221033 Toth029 said:
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Dak is Cousins 2.0
"I don't love Dak but he's put up numbers plain and simple. You can asterisk down his stats and asterisk up Jones stats just because you like Jones."
When did I do that? Jones does need to play better but you are not rationalizing how bad his supporting cast has been.
Yeah yeah, DJ continues his run of the most wronged QB by his supporting cast in the history of the league. Oh wait, college too because his supporting cast was also the reason he was underwhelming and held the ball too long at that level as well.
No one, I mean no one is saying he doesn't have a tough situation but one group wants to excuse him because of his tough situation and the other wants to hold him accountable as the most important player on the field despite this.
Has it ever occurred to you that if a player is gun shy it makes him much easier to defend? Some of you go so far in excusing his poor play that you fail to account at all for the fact that Jones could make the players around him tighter, can make it easier to call defenses against him putting his teammates in a worse position.
See most people see it like that, that the QB is the engine that makes a team run and makes everyone around him look better. BBI and Jones are the only place you can go and find the QB as the victim of bad team play. The old swell chap phenomenon that also got him way overpaid.
I've stated this before, but both Engram and Barkley have had better receiving years under QBs other than Jones. It's early but Waller is trending the same way. The NFL doesn't allow for a control group to really compare and contrast players, but aren't we building sufficient data showing Jones just isn't an above-average passing producer?
That’s hilarious because if Engram could catch, we probably win that shitty division in 2020 at 7-9 or 8-8. And the clown show would still be running things.
It's also hilarious that Barkley and Waller seem to have developed the dreaded dropsies affliction since Engram's departure. But yes, let's stick to the script on Engram being the problem there. Nevermind that the issue still exists even though the supposed culprit is gone.
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it.
Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
Eli is an interesting case:
Toomer was too old to produce when he left the Giants (didn't make it out of TC with the chiefs)
Burress shot himself and was out of football for 2 years or so
Nicks suffered lower leg injuries that helped him depart the Giants which more than likely prevented him from putting good numbers again
Cruz suffered a terrible injury and never left the Giants
Steve Smith suffered a terrible injury and was never the same.
Kevin Boss went to oakland but retired shortly after due to concussions.
Beckham is the best example of putting up good numbers after leaving Manning.
Shockey I think put up pretty good numbers for the Saints
Manningham went to SF and a horrific injury.
I think the answer is that Jones is just not a prolific passer. It doesn't mean he doesn't do other things well. But I think elite passing production is the most critical factor to winning championships.
Why is it that ex-players, present players, and commentators are attaching Jones.
After watching football this weekend there were plenty of awful QBs. Yet there is little criticism with the exception of Wilson.
Why do they avoid attaching other QBs but feel comfortable going after Jones ? and for that matter this also applied to Eli.
Is it an anti New York bias ?
Why is it that ex-players, present players, and commentators are attaching Jones.
After watching football this weekend there were plenty of awful QBs. Yet there is little criticism with the exception of Wilson.
Why do they avoid attaching other QBs but feel comfortable going after Jones ? and for that matter this also applied to Eli.
Is it an anti New York bias ?
The contract probably is a big reason I'd guess.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4.
Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
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do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Occam's razor seems to fit here, pal.
Jones is being paid like a top 10 QB but when you zoom out beyond individual games he hasn’t earned that by any stretch as a passer.
And I’m not sure how people would not be embarrassed to have an opposing team say your teams QB was afraid to throw the ball. He looked that way so it isn’t shocking to hear that.
Yeah that isn’t the most common refrain… or sight…
I think the answer is that Jones is just not a prolific passer. It doesn't mean he doesn't do other things well. But I think elite passing production is the most critical factor to winning championships.
I’ve watched bits and pieces of Engram with JAX. They use him a bunch on TE screens, leaks to the flat, designed plays to get him in space where he can use him ample athleticism and speed to pick up yards. Not much over the middle in traffic, which as we all unfortunately recall, was not his strong suit.
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.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
You are making my point thanks. I meant specifically for Engram not sure if that is him but either way that is my point. You play with Jones who has been plagued by holding the ball too long and confidence issues you are going to play tighter and drop more balls. Than Eli, “ice in his veins” manning.
2019: 4.4%
2020: 10.1%
2021: 8.2%
2022: 5.1%
2023: 4.8%
Saqoun:
2018: 3.3%
2019: 5.5%
2020: 11.1%
2021: 10.5%
2022: 7.9%
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In comment 16221166 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Occam's razor seems to fit here, pal.
Not saying they have the yips. Barkley dropped one pass which led to the Arizona pick. The pick vs. Dallas - Barkley never saw Diggs, and it was a great play by him.
Waller and Jones have worked together for a grand total of 3 actual games. It does take actual time to establish chemistry, but you will call that an excuse and call me a loser fan and tell me to GTFOH.
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.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
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In comment 16221171 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221166 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
do we think that Engram a prolific college receiver forgot how to catch with NYG and remembered again for JAX?
Or maybe this is a data point for exactly what I’m talking about. It puts a lot of pressure on the rest of an offense if they need to play mistake free to help say a QB prone to bouts of confidence problems. Makes you play tighter.
We have the Cardinals game as another great data point here. Jones plays with confidence all of a sudden his receivers look better too. But unfortunately that confident Jones needs special circumstances and often a below average defense to show up.
You sure the QB is the one with the confidence problem in this scenario, pal? Fact is, Engram got the yips with the Giants. Very physically talented player, yes, but uhh, let’s say prone to miscues and be kind about it. Engram drops compilation video - ( New Window )
And Barkley and Waller now coincidentally also have the yips?
Occam's razor seems to fit here, pal.
Not saying they have the yips. Barkley dropped one pass which led to the Arizona pick. The pick vs. Dallas - Barkley never saw Diggs, and it was a great play by him.
Waller and Jones have worked together for a grand total of 3 actual games. It does take actual time to establish chemistry, but you will call that an excuse and call me a loser fan and tell me to GTFOH.
I'm just saying that you're a DJ fan above being a Giants fan. You're willing to blame other Giants for DJ's shortcomings but not place any responsibility on DJ himself.
This is exactly what gave rise to the DJFC.
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
BTW, Engram had 11 drops as a rookie with Eli as his QB.
Engram last year with Jax - 98 targets 73 catches 766 yards 4 tds
Engram through 20 games with Jax - 119 targets 91 catches 939 yards 4td
Engram's drops - 2019 03
2020 11
2021 06
2022 05 (Jax)
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With the same posters just in different threads… it’s the same old song…
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
I love when dupes out themselves.
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In comment 16221174 NoGainDayne said:
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How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
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In comment 16221184 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221174 NoGainDayne said:
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.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
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In comment 16221196 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16221184 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221174 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
Are we going to ignore th quality of his opponents? Ravens have a poor pass rush, the Colts are te Colts, the Jaguars are a decent defense but certainly not the Cowboys or the Niners. And btw about 60 yards Stroud's passing yards Sunday were the result of a busted play where there was not a defender within 20 yards of the receiver
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In comment 16221207 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221196 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16221184 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221174 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
I am indeed the same fella, but with quite a few more grays since my BBWC era (if TSwift can have eras, so can I).
The reality is that the vast majortiy of offenses cannot function without decent pass blocking. There are 2 maybe 3 QBs that cannot overcome it. But against the Comboys and the Niners, the OL made it essentially impossible to function.
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With the same posters just in different threads… it’s the same old song…
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
Do you really think it takes years to see the same people say the same things in each thread? I bet there have been 15-20 threads since the start of the season where you and a few others have said the same thing kver and over and over again.
It’s really easy to see. Sorry if this upsets you.
But again, sounds like there aren’t similar standards for Jones and other QBs.
Then he threw a pick 6 before halftime and the world realized if you got to him, his game went to hell.
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In comment 16221192 JT039 said:
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With the same posters just in different threads… it’s the same old song…
You registered in August 2023. How do you know what "same old song" and "same posters" there are on BBI?
What's your previous handle(s)?
Do you really think it takes years to see the same people say the same things in each thread? I bet there have been 15-20 threads since the start of the season where you and a few others have said the same thing kver and over and over again.
It’s really easy to see. Sorry if this upsets you.
Yeah, whatever. What's your previous handle?
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In comment 16221218 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16221207 PetesHereNow said:
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In comment 16221196 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16221184 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 16221174 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
.
How about drop percentage? Jones 5.3, Eli 1.4. Stathead Advanced Passing Comparison - ( New Window )
Why is it important to you that DJ be absolved of any responsibility even when it means blaming it on other Giants?
Are you a DJ fan or a Giants fan? Do you think DJ is good enough right now if he never improves at all for the rest of his career? Unless your answer to the latter question is a resounding, "YES!" then why would you be so certain that none of the responsibility rests with DJ himself?
I’ve been a Giants fan since I was born. There is a photo of my mom holding me at age 2 at training camp in 1981 while Lawrence Taylor signed a training camp roster placard for us.
No, I do not think Jones is good enough right now. However, I am hopeful that if the line can block for him better, he can be a top 10 QB in this league. With his scrambling ability, I think he could lead us to glory.
I’m not attempting to absolve the guy of all blame but I’ve seen this script before. DJ will be fine. And guess what? If I’m wrong and you’re right, we have 30 more games of this. Because I promise that if Joe Schoen does not think he can win a Super Bowl with DJ, he’s pulling the rip cord in February 2025. And Lord willing, you can tell me to eat crow then.
Fair enough, and I appreciate your response.
My apologies for taking such a snarky tone with you throughout our back-and-forth.
No worries. We all want the Giants to win football games.
I believe you used to post on BBWC back in the day. I used to be there also, but I hustled over here in Jan 2004 where the rumor was we were gonna swing a trade to get Eli. Never left here since then. If I have the wrong GatoradeDunk, I apologize. But my name on BBWC was something like VegasPete, and so when I came here, I went with the sarcastic PetesHereNow. Are you the same fella?
I am indeed the same fella, but with quite a few more grays since my BBWC era (if TSwift can have eras, so can I).
Cheers brother. My apologies on my tone as well. I’m from Jersey, you know how it is. I hear you on those grays. The wife says they make me look distinguished but I think she’s full of it ;)
Long like the Gray Dunk and Gray Pete era.
Looking forward to your insight on why Jones isn’t good in the next thread abojt QBs.
Looking forward to your insight on why Jones isn’t good in the next thread abojt QBs.
Looking forward to your next fart fetish post, Chop.
Have a good night man.
Partly, I think DC’s like Quinn and the SF DC are telling their guys “don’t bite on the play action”, just get to Jones as fast as you can. Their OL is struggling so let’s make them drive 10 plays to score. 3-5 yard runs aren’t gonna kill them because eventually there will be a penalty or a sack or a negative play.
I don’t know the numbers and it’s a small sample size but it seems like we suck on plays that are behind the sticks. In other words, 1st and 15, 1st and 20, 2nd and 15, and so on. If the defense can just hunt Jones and not have to worry about a screen or a draw, it’s not pretty.
Would love to see Kafka adapt and come out with either heavy run script next week or work in the draw/screen game much more. Think we also have to get Hyatt in the game, send him deep. Even as a decoy, his speed must be respected. Let’s let Jones get into the rhythm he got into in the 2H vs. Zona.
Ball out and wreck Seattle. The narrative will change…. for a week.
Ball out and wreck Seattle. The narrative will change…. for a week.
Yep. It's a simple as that. Jones needs to have big games with a stand-alone audience. He had a great game in Minnesota for a playoff win, but not many people respected that Vikings team, especially the defense. Now they are 0-3.
Start beating Dallas, Philly, etc. and the narrative will change. Win a shootout against Miami. The narrative will change.
The amount of shit this kid takes from the national media is absurd. Yes, he's no Mahomes or Allen. But he's not some dude either. He's a middle tier QB. But people see the coin he got @ the likely expense of #26...& there we go.
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In comment 16220934 ajr2456 said:
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But if Jones became even 75% of Mcnabb that would be fantastic
No, this is all wrong.
75% of McNabb? Really? McNabb's issues were always completion % and winning in the playoffs.
If Jones only reached 75% of McNabb, his current completion % would already be above the number...and NO Giant fan is going to accept losing in the playoffs time and time again as the favorite.
Completely different era of football, and taking that quite too literal. How many NFC championship games did Mcnabb make?
Ok, fair. However, can you define what the 75% McNabb is that you would find to be "fantastic?"
Who cares about a good record? He threw up in a game.
Plus he isn’t the swell chap or hard worker Daniel Jones is!
The amount of shit this kid takes from the national media is absurd. Yes, he's no Mahomes or Allen. But he's not some dude either. He's a middle tier QB. But people see the coin he got @ the likely expense of #26...& there we go.
Is it? Look at the incessant hammering Mayfield has taken in the media. Darnold, former QB in NY, has been kicked around like a tin can. Goff was a pinata, especially after his hideous SB performance and eventual trade to Detroit.
I could go on and on. But the criticism that Jones takes is not unusual at al vis-a-vis other highly selected QBs.
As many mentioned, Jones controls his fate. Play consistently better and the cacophony of criticism fades.
Jones is being paid like a top 10 QB but when you zoom out beyond individual games he hasn’t earned that by any stretch as a passer.
And I’m not sure how people would not be embarrassed to have an opposing team say your teams QB was afraid to throw the ball. He looked that way so it isn’t shocking to hear that.
Yeah that isn’t the most common refrain… or sight…
Just an aside here, can someone tell me when it became fashionable for other players to criticize those in the same profession, especially when they were no super stars themselves. This was never heard of years ago. This kid is taking an enormous, unwarranted beating by other players, so called TV experts and even some Giant fans. Then is expected to go out and play flawlessly.
There's no shutting up IDIOTS!!! Stupid is stupid. They'll never go away..
I have zero doubt Jones lets the criticism just roll off. He looks like a guy who can compartmentalize.
His loyal members in the DJFC are a completely different story... ;)
I've seen bits and pieces of Stroud's games, and he looks very poised. He had an outstanding QBR in the win in Jax yesterday.
I haven't seen anyone say Jones is above criticism. He certainly is not. This whole team deserves criticism right now, including upstream of the players. It's not a good product right they are putting out on the field right now.