for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

When we talk about lack of talent on the roster - 2021 draft

Sean : 9/26/2023 9:17 am
I still can't fathom that the Eagles & Cowboys worked together to secure two of the top players from that draft class while leaving the Giants with nothing. It was well reported that the Giants coveted Devonta Smith, so the Eagles jump them and take what would be by far the best WR on the roster. Cowboys let Micah Parsons come right to them who's the best defensive player in that draft.

So, we all obsess over the draft as fans. Often times fans stress the importance of losses to secure a better pick. This just proves how overrated that can be, the Eagles picked behind NYG and jumped ahead of them.

The Giants come away with Kadarius Toney who is already on another roster. I'm not giving up on Thinodeaux or Neal yet, but both Smith and Parsons have proven to be strong NFL caliber players.

It's frustrating when we hear how far away this roster is, yet they've missed opportunities to bring in elite talent. The 2021 draft is looking like a complete disaster. It's no wonder this team is far away. Add in how much better Philly and Dallas got from that draft, and you have regular dominance of those franchises against NYG.

Frustrating.
It's a regular occurrence  
JonC : 9/26/2023 9:30 am : link
could think of dozens of draft mistakes over the last 40+ years.
They didn’t “leave” the Giants with nothing,  
Section331 : 9/26/2023 9:31 am : link
the Giants were an active participant. They clearly had their sights set on Smith, and I can even see them passing on Parsons due to character concerns, but the trade back was flawed in so many ways. Apparently, DG thought AVT would be there when almost every mock had him going in the teens. The icing on the cake is passing on Parsons for character, but taking Toney, a walking red flag.
It's been rehashed endlessly here  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2023 9:32 am : link
But Parsons is going to haunt them for a long, long time. Inexcusable miss.
RE: It's a regular occurrence  
Shecky : 9/26/2023 9:33 am : link
In comment 16221631 JonC said:
Quote:
could think of dozens of draft mistakes over the last 40+ years.


4 or 40?
Don’t forget Rashawn Slater LT for Chargers  
Rick in Dallas : 9/26/2023 9:34 am : link
Second team pro bowl LT as a freaking rookie.
Another miss beside Parsons and Smith
Will we ever fix the OL???
RE: RE: It's a regular occurrence  
JonC : 9/26/2023 9:40 am : link
In comment 16221635 Shecky said:
Quote:
In comment 16221631 JonC said:


Quote:


could think of dozens of draft mistakes over the last 40+ years.



4 or 40?


40+
RE: Don’t forget Rashawn Slater LT for Chargers  
McNally's_Nuts : 9/26/2023 9:44 am : link
In comment 16221637 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
Second team pro bowl LT as a freaking rookie.
Another miss beside Parsons and Smith
Will we ever fix the OL???


Slater at 13, AVT at 14 and Darrisaw at 23.

Nope, forced a WR pick.
We somehow even screw up the good players we draft  
Lambuth_Special : 9/26/2023 9:48 am : link
BJ Hill has been solid for Cincy, and Will Hernandez has revived his career in AZ.

It's like we got a dark cloud following everything. At least Toney has been a bust for KC outside of the bowl.
RE: RE: RE: It's a regular occurrence  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2023 9:53 am : link
In comment 16221647 JonC said:
Quote:
40+


Eh, 40 years ago was 1983. The Giants did some fine drafting in the '80s. That 1983 draft, for example, got them Terry Kinard, Leonard Marshall, Karl Nelson, Kevin Belcher (who was very promising before his career was cut short early by a horrific car wreck), Perry Williams, and Andy Headen.

Even in the early '90s, as the team declined and George Young started to misfire routinely in the first round, they still drafted Strahan, Armstead, Hampton, Hamilton, and Sehorn. The drafts didn't really start to suck until GY retired.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's a regular occurrence  
McNally's_Nuts : 9/26/2023 9:57 am : link
In comment 16221656 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 16221647 JonC said:


Quote:


40+



Eh, 40 years ago was 1983. The Giants did some fine drafting in the '80s. That 1983 draft, for example, got them Terry Kinard, Leonard Marshall, Karl Nelson, Kevin Belcher (who was very promising before his career was cut short early by a horrific car wreck), Perry Williams, and Andy Headen.

Even in the early '90s, as the team declined and George Young started to misfire routinely in the first round, they still drafted Strahan, Armstead, Hampton, Hamilton, and Sehorn. The drafts didn't really start to suck until GY retired.


The Fassel drafts were terrible outside of Shockey, Osi and Diehl.

Once Coughlin got here it got much better for a 5-6 year stretch.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's a regular occurrence  
Lambuth_Special : 9/26/2023 10:04 am : link
In comment 16221656 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 16221647 JonC said:


Quote:


40+



Eh, 40 years ago was 1983. The Giants did some fine drafting in the '80s. That 1983 draft, for example, got them Terry Kinard, Leonard Marshall, Karl Nelson, Kevin Belcher (who was very promising before his career was cut short early by a horrific car wreck), Perry Williams, and Andy Headen.

Even in the early '90s, as the team declined and George Young started to misfire routinely in the first round, they still drafted Strahan, Armstead, Hampton, Hamilton, and Sehorn. The drafts didn't really start to suck until GY retired.


Not to mentioned GY picked up Toomer, Barber, and Hilliard in his last two drafts and basically set up the non-QB skill positions for the next decade.

Jarrod Bunch in 91 though is probably one of the worst picks I've ever seen considering value and the teams' needs the time (aging pass rushers and no WRs).
also Roman Oben who was a solid player  
Greg from LI : 9/26/2023 10:09 am : link
though he wasn't a Giant for very long
Drafts since 1990  
Lambuth_Special : 9/26/2023 10:14 am : link
1990-1992: mostly bad
1993-1997: pretty good, some whiffs but a lot of foundational players
1998-2002: bad, Shockey the only blue chip guy, got a few ok years out of Joe J/Shaun Williams/Cornelius Griffin/Will Allen, not much else
2003-2011: Pretty great, tails off a little bit toward the end but you still have JPP in 2010.
2012-2017: dismal outside of OBJ
2018-2021: mediocre, some hits and value - mostly from 2019 - but plenty of misses and guys who failed here but found success elsewhere.
this subject is such a bore at this point  
Eric on Li : 9/26/2023 10:27 am : link
you know who the cowboys coveted that draft? surtain and horn, everyone knew it so they got picked right before the cowboys and then the cowboys traded down.

little did they know diggs was about to break out in his 2nd year the way he did and parsons was a monster at a position he'd never really played.

the eagles made a bold move up for smith because in the immediately prior drafts they made mistakes drafting jalen reagor and jj arcega whiteside while passing on the likes of justin jefferson and dk metcalf. they don't seem haunted. the chiefs dont seem haunted for drafting clyde edwards helaire over tee higgins, michael pittman, jonathan taylor who all went in the next few picks.

the dolphins took noah Igbinoghene in the first that year, they too dont look so haunted now.

the giants got the 7th overall pick in 2022 and the 20th overall pick in 2021 (which turned into waller) for the 11th pick in 2021 (fields, who has all of a sudden turned into a punch line again). as much as missing on parsons sucked that's a trade you do 10/10 times because it is impossible to expect an outcome like parsons at the 11th pick. the cowboys picked him and they didnt expect it or they wouldnt have risked trading down.

the draft involves a good amount of luck for all involved. there is almost always going to a 'parsons' you missed out on somehow. everyone passed on amon-ra st brown and creed humphrey at least once and some twice or more.
RE: this subject is such a bore at this point  
TDMaker85 : 9/26/2023 10:56 am : link
In comment 16221719 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
you know who the cowboys coveted that draft? surtain and horn, everyone knew it so they got picked right before the cowboys and then the cowboys traded down.

little did they know diggs was about to break out in his 2nd year the way he did and parsons was a monster at a position he'd never really played.

the eagles made a bold move up for smith because in the immediately prior drafts they made mistakes drafting jalen reagor and jj arcega whiteside while passing on the likes of justin jefferson and dk metcalf. they don't seem haunted. the chiefs dont seem haunted for drafting clyde edwards helaire over tee higgins, michael pittman, jonathan taylor who all went in the next few picks.

the dolphins took noah Igbinoghene in the first that year, they too dont look so haunted now.

the giants got the 7th overall pick in 2022 and the 20th overall pick in 2021 (which turned into waller) for the 11th pick in 2021 (fields, who has all of a sudden turned into a punch line again). as much as missing on parsons sucked that's a trade you do 10/10 times because it is impossible to expect an outcome like parsons at the 11th pick. the cowboys picked him and they didnt expect it or they wouldnt have risked trading down.

the draft involves a good amount of luck for all involved. there is almost always going to a 'parsons' you missed out on somehow. everyone passed on amon-ra st brown and creed humphrey at least once and some twice or more.


All true. Great post.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/26/2023 11:02 am : link
I could somewhat understand the trade down and passing on Parsons for the extra pick in 2022 - but the problem is they drafted fucking Toney. Darrisaw would have been a great pick at that spot.

But if you really didn't have a plan for the 20th pick - you have to stand pat and take Parsons there or even AVT or somebody else, hell even Darrisaw. Pretty much anyone would have been better than Toney.
Giants draft problems  
Sammo85 : 9/26/2023 11:04 am : link
stem from issues on hitting on picks in a basket sense including later rounders that fit a broader plan of impact/competition and sustainability. Have to give Schoen and Brown a bit longer.
...  
christian : 9/26/2023 11:04 am : link
Successful roster construction is a flywheel that starts with quality scouting. There's no amount of volume that will make up for subpar evaluation. It just compounds the problems.

That 11th overall pick gave the Giants three swings at a premium player. In each swing they could have had Parsons or Slater. If not then Paye or Darrisaw, and Cross or Olave.

To me it's not the clairvoyance to pick Parsons, it's how many good players were there at each juncture. These weren't scenarios where there were no good options.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/26/2023 11:06 am : link
It is also worth noting that the Giants orginization almost never takes a "gamble" on a player with a previous issue. Which is what made it even worse that they took Toney, he had a couple things on the resume that didn't look great, although nothing criminal obviously.

The Eagles and Cowboys always take "chances" and they seem to always work out. Look at Jalen Carter. It is obvious that he's already one of the best interior DL in the entire league. And although that situation was pretty bad, it was somewhat obvious at the time that he wasn't this terrible criminal and that it was a really bad decision.

I know the Giants have "class" and all that but man, sooner or later you have to just take one of these guys. The Tunsil thing was also brutal.
...  
ryanmkeane : 9/26/2023 11:07 am : link
And I know the Giants didn't pass on Carter because they didn't have the chance to, but similar situations like that have played out.
It's also funny  
Lambuth_Special : 9/26/2023 11:11 am : link
That Toney wasn't the first headcase the Giants drafted in the 1st in recent times; DeAndre Baker literally got charged with armed robbery.
BBI talks about the lack of talent  
HBart : 9/26/2023 11:25 am : link
But that's not presently true. There is a lack of PROVEN talent (relative to the leagues best). And that's by definition given the inexperience of so many key players.

People bitch and moan about Neal and the young guys but the fact is players take time and snaps to develop. Some more than others. Complain all you want but it takes 9 months to make a baby. You can't pay 9 woman to make one in a month. Sometimes guys will surprise early like Sauce Gardner (or Deonte Banks). Those are exceptions.

Look at the OL and CBs. The Giants could have returned the same guys. With the OL, a group that managed one of the league's best rushing attacks and an average passing attack with no skill players outside Barkley. But they decided the existing roster talent plus a draftee was a better option. With an asterisk for Hassnauer.

Same at CB.

The only significant negative that's surprised me (personnel wise) so far is Glowinski -- who was supposed to be proven -- imploding (and for those who love PFF he had a slightly above average grade last year).
So, you’re telling us that DG didn’t know how to do his job  
BillT : 9/26/2023 11:26 am : link
The job he no longer has because he didn’t know how to do it. Quite the revelation.
Weren't Neal and Thibs  
Jim in Forest Hills : 9/26/2023 11:29 am : link
#1 OT and ER on the COwboys board?
Why go through this every week?  
Kanavis : 9/26/2023 11:38 am : link
No one knew Parsons would be quite this good. Don't forget that he skipped his last year. There were rumors that DG wanted Darrisaw and that JJ wanted Toney. I could see it, but I have no way to know/confirm.

For everyone who is still very upset about Parsons, would you like him on the Giants??? With Judge and DG in place? Because they might still be here if we drafted Parsons. I will take things as they turned out.

Give the newer players 3 years. It takes that long. You never know. Things change quickly and dramatically in the NFL.
We have to get over this stuff about Parsons.  
Gruber : 9/26/2023 11:41 am : link
Keep this in mind: LT played at the peak of his powers from 1981 to 1991.
The Giants won two Superbowls in the period. They didn't win the other eight. The Redskins won two of those eight. And another in '92.
Dallas having Parsons does not make them unbeatable, as Phoenix has just shown.
Garbage in equals garbage out  
kelly : 9/26/2023 2:27 pm : link
We have not been good at evaluating draft picks, free agents or our own players.

We miss on draft picks and free agents

And overpay our own mediocre players.

We wont right the ship until we are better at evaluating talent.
RE: Why go through this every week?  
allstarjim : 9/26/2023 4:46 pm : link
In comment 16221828 Kanavis said:
Quote:
No one knew Parsons would be quite this good. Don't forget that he skipped his last year. There were rumors that DG wanted Darrisaw and that JJ wanted Toney. I could see it, but I have no way to know/confirm.

For everyone who is still very upset about Parsons, would you like him on the Giants??? With Judge and DG in place? Because they might still be here if we drafted Parsons. I will take things as they turned out.

Give the newer players 3 years. It takes that long. You never know. Things change quickly and dramatically in the NFL.


This narrative persists despite the fact that it is simply not true. I said it prior that draft, but even I knew he probably was off the board because of some bs hazing incidents. The Giants need to question what scenarios are mistakes by a young player that are not predictive of future problems, and what kind of mistakes are more indicative of a longer-term character issue.

We had the same discussion with regard to Tunsil. Parsons was a rare, elite talent, you simply don't find guys at his size that can run 4.3. Even the pass rush ability was talked about, that he had the raw talent to be elite there. The fact is, he is such a unicorn he'd probably be able to be a good corner if you wanted him to do that. He was simply the type of player that can do almost anything defensively, and it was talked about on this board at the time.

I pounded the table for him early in the draft season, but switched to talking about other players as it got closer to the draft when it was more clear that the Giants wouldn't touch him.

The fact that he's reached his ceiling (very quickly) does not excuse that the traits he held were extremely rare and obvious.
It's always worth mentioning  
mittenedman : 9/26/2023 5:01 pm : link
it matters what situation a player is drafted into, too.

Evan Neal would probably be road-grading the piss out of people if he ended up in DAL, like all their OL do.

Any OL that comes here immediately plays like shit. Zeitler was good before he got here, regressed with the Giants, then started playing good again for the Ravens. It's an epidemic.
22 draft not looking great either  
Breeze_94 : 9/26/2023 5:24 pm : link
Bellinger might be the only guy who has a positive ROI on his draft slot.

Flott looking like a huge whiff, as well as the 2 guys picked top 7. Wan’Dale I actually like, but hasn’t stayed healthy and has a skillset that can typically be found much later in the draft. Belton can’t crack the starting lineup (over a waiver claim nonetheless). Ezeudu couldn’t win a starting G spot on one of NFL’s worst units.

I guess Davidson, McKethan, McFadden are okay depth guys - which is a decent return on 5th and 6th rounders (assuming they can stick)
RE: It's been rehashed endlessly here  
SomeFan : 9/26/2023 8:41 pm : link
In comment 16221633 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But Parsons is going to haunt them for a long, long time. Inexcusable miss.
it perhaps will be on a par with the Saints drafting George Rogers over LT, except Rogers was a decent pro RB. Tibet excels at being unavailable.
Tibet  
SomeFan : 9/26/2023 8:41 pm : link
should be Toney of course.
RE: It's been rehashed endlessly here  
LauderdaleMatty : 9/26/2023 9:39 pm : link
In comment 16221633 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But Parsons is going to haunt them for a long, long time. Inexcusable miss.


Wait. Lb are not impact players. Schoen is here now. Gotta give him a few years but between Reese/Ross/and Gettleman the inability to draft functional players for a decade was inexcusable.

RE: RE: It's been rehashed endlessly here  
Angel Eyes : 9/26/2023 9:48 pm : link
In comment 16222613 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 16221633 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


But Parsons is going to haunt them for a long, long time. Inexcusable miss.



Wait. Lb are not impact players. Schoen is here now. Gotta give him a few years but between Reese/Ross/and Gettleman the inability to draft functional players for a decade was inexcusable.

Especially since we nominally use a 3-4 defense where the linebackers have to be playmakers.
RE: this subject is such a bore at this point  
HomerJones45 : 9/27/2023 9:01 am : link
In comment 16221719 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
you know who the cowboys coveted that draft? surtain and horn, everyone knew it so they got picked right before the cowboys and then the cowboys traded down.

little did they know diggs was about to break out in his 2nd year the way he did and parsons was a monster at a position he'd never really played.

the eagles made a bold move up for smith because in the immediately prior drafts they made mistakes drafting jalen reagor and jj arcega whiteside while passing on the likes of justin jefferson and dk metcalf. they don't seem haunted. the chiefs dont seem haunted for drafting clyde edwards helaire over tee higgins, michael pittman, jonathan taylor who all went in the next few picks.

the dolphins took noah Igbinoghene in the first that year, they too dont look so haunted now.

the giants got the 7th overall pick in 2022 and the 20th overall pick in 2021 (which turned into waller) for the 11th pick in 2021 (fields, who has all of a sudden turned into a punch line again). as much as missing on parsons sucked that's a trade you do 10/10 times because it is impossible to expect an outcome like parsons at the 11th pick. the cowboys picked him and they didnt expect it or they wouldnt have risked trading down.

the draft involves a good amount of luck for all involved. there is almost always going to a 'parsons' you missed out on somehow. everyone passed on amon-ra st brown and creed humphrey at least once and some twice or more.
All true however, miss on draft after draft and it's not a good thing, and some teams just seem to get "luckier" every year than others.

We'll try and come up with a more interesting topic for your entertainment.
RE: this subject is such a bore at this point  
Four Aces : 9/27/2023 1:33 pm : link
In comment 16221719 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
you know who the cowboys coveted that draft? surtain and horn, everyone knew it so they got picked right before the cowboys and then the cowboys traded down.

little did they know diggs was about to break out in his 2nd year the way he did and parsons was a monster at a position he'd never really played.

the eagles made a bold move up for smith because in the immediately prior drafts they made mistakes drafting jalen reagor and jj arcega whiteside while passing on the likes of justin jefferson and dk metcalf. they don't seem haunted. the chiefs dont seem haunted for drafting clyde edwards helaire over tee higgins, michael pittman, jonathan taylor who all went in the next few picks.

the dolphins took noah Igbinoghene in the first that year, they too dont look so haunted now.

the giants got the 7th overall pick in 2022 and the 20th overall pick in 2021 (which turned into waller) for the 11th pick in 2021 (fields, who has all of a sudden turned into a punch line again). as much as missing on parsons sucked that's a trade you do 10/10 times because it is impossible to expect an outcome like parsons at the 11th pick. the cowboys picked him and they didnt expect it or they wouldnt have risked trading down.

the draft involves a good amount of luck for all involved. there is almost always going to a 'parsons' you missed out on somehow. everyone passed on amon-ra st brown and creed humphrey at least once and some twice or more.


Great post and completely fucking agree. Add in the fact, that 9 other NFL teams passed on Parsons and had their concerns too about his character. If everyone had a crystal, then Parsons would have been the 1st or 2nd pick.
crystal ball*  
Four Aces : 9/27/2023 1:34 pm : link
.
...  
christian : 9/27/2023 2:13 pm : link
In comment 16223006 Four Aces said:
Quote:
the draft involves a good amount of luck for all involved. there is almost always going to a 'parsons' you missed out on somehow. everyone passed on amon-ra st brown and creed humphrey at least once and some twice or more.

Great post and completely fucking agree. Add in the fact, that 9 other NFL teams passed on Parsons and had their concerns too about his character. If everyone had a crystal, then Parsons would have been the 1st or 2nd pick.


I completely understand why the Giants passed on Parsons against the backdrop of what just happened with Baker.

What's worth keeping an eye on is whether with the alternative options, if the Giants made good decisions. That pick ultimately represented three opportunities to make a first round selection.

The Giants ultimately netted Waller, Neal, Robinson, and Bellinger.

I think it remains to be seen if the Giants did well given the opportunities.
Back to the Corner