I chanced across these "standings" today, where someone took each NFL team's last 162 games as if this were the end of baseball season.
I knew the numbers were bad...but not THIS bad.
Over the past 10 years, the Giants are essentially tied with the Bears for the worst record in the NFC. To whit:
link - ( New Window )
Sorry #18:
Didn't mean to steal your fire there.
Quote:
thing I noticed when it link - ( New Window )
Sorry #18:
Didn't mean to steal your fire there.
lol, NBG, no fire stealing, just thought you might like to see some of the discussion from when it was posted before.
When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that.
When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that.
Eli didn't change. The team around him did.
SMH
Plus I have generally found the NFL pretty dull this year. A lot of uncompetitive games and a lot of the competitive games aren't interesting.
Quote:
The QB play during this duration has not been good. Aside from 2015 and 2022, the Giants did not have particularly strong QB play. I love Eli as much as anyone, but the second half of his career was a struggle.
When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that.
Eli didn't change. The team around him did.
SMH
Eli declined. How is this still a debate?
I’m 2016, he threw for 4000 yards and 26 TDs.
I mean those aren’t bad numbers whatsoever.
Ben was washed for several years before he retired but they had excellent surroundings for him.
Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol.
But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.
Quote:
But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking.
Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol.
But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.
You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring.
Quote:
In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking.
Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol.
But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.
You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring.
And what were the other options on offense? Rashad Jennings? Larry Donnell? Will Tye? Rueben Randle?
I mean come on. Like I said - if he had the right pieces. Those aren’t pieces. Those are replacement players.
Quote:
In comment 16222457 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking.
Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol.
But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.
You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring.
And what were the other options on offense? Rashad Jennings? Larry Donnell? Will Tye? Rueben Randle?
I mean come on. Like I said - if he had the right pieces. Those aren’t pieces. Those are replacement players.
C'mon. There were major red flags that Eli was in decline in 2016. The o-line and weapons outside of OBJ were dogshit in 2014 and 2015, too.
They had Bobby Hart and Ereck Flowers, afterall.
They had Bobby Hart and Ereck Flowers, afterall.
TE, typo.
To add to that. They really sucked at drafting period from 2011 on. And they really sucked after the early rounds, so depth became a major problem in the 2010s.
C'mon. There were major red flags that Eli was in decline in 2016. The o-line and weapons outside of OBJ were dogshit in 2014 and 2015, too.
Of course Eli was in decline in 2016. I mean no one is gonna say he was as good as he was in 2011. So yes he was in decline. But as bad as Randle was - Cruz was worse. Jennings was awful in 2016. And Cruz’s career was over and he was our number 2.
And remind me how Eli looked in the playoff game?
In an ideal world, the Giants would have had a great OL and numerous weapons on offense and Eli could have fired darts all over the field. Generally it doesn't work that way.
For the most part from 2012 - 2022, NYG did not have top ten QB play. There were multiple reasons for that, but I don't that that's outrageous.
Eli carried the team in 2011. That was peak Eli imo.
It's as if you didn't even watch the games after 2011.
After that, things just seemed different.
But from 2012-2015 he was putting up good numbers (sans 2013 which was a BAD team) and we lost many a game due to defense.
So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!!
LOL
Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018.
I can't even believe this is a debate.
And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.
Quote:
I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better?
So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!!
LOL
Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018.
I can't even believe this is a debate.
And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.
It’s amazing how posters shit on QBs from the Giants consistently and make excuses for every other QB in the league.
I mean we have one poster openly saying a WR not getting open has no affect on Jones play. It’s amazing at this point.
It's as if you didn't even watch the games after 2011.
Evan Engram of all people said he looked up to Eli in learning how to be a professional. The reason he stated was how bad the line was around him and never gave him time and he never pointed the finger at anyone.
Now we have people like the owner, Golden Tate, Kyle Rudolph saying how much Jones has been screwed over by circumstances out of his control but we still have the QB pitchfork whiners saying the same thing
From 1966 - 1980 the Giants had no playoff appearances.
Before Parcells took over for him Ray Perkins coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 road playoff game
After Parcells left before the 1991 season RH coached the Giants for 2 years with 0 playoff wins
Dan Reeves coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 playoff game at home.
Jim Fassel coached the Giants for 7 years. He won 2 playoff games, both at home in 2000.
Tom Coughlin coached the Giants for 12 years and won 2 Super Bowls. Those 8 wins were the only playoff games he won and only 1 was at home.
Three coaches in 6 seasons. McAdoo 2 years, Shurmur 2 years, Judge 2 years, 0 playoff appearances.
Brian Daboll in year 2 has 1 road playoff win.
During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises.
In their 5 Super Bowl appearance seasons the Giants won 16 playoff games. The other 52 Super Bowl era seasons? 5 total playoff wins. 1 playoff win in 5 separate seasons. Parcells 2, Perkins 1, Reeves 1 and Daboll 1.
Quote:
I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better?
So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!!
LOL
Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018.
I can't even believe this is a debate.
And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.
You’re literally making the point for me. Eli was able to overcome all those things in 2011 and as the years went on he was able to overcome them. It’s not shitting on Eli to admit he started to decline after 2015.
And yes, 2019 is the only year where there’s a data point to compare against but I’m sure if you threw in a young athletic QB into 2017 or 2018 the offense would have looked improved.
Eli declined because he got older, and unlike some other QBs the Giants also didn’t put a good team around him. It’s ok, multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time - there’s no need for a temper tantrum about it.
Eli Manning was a great QB who declined in his late 30s. Everyone does.
14, 15, 16 Eli was good. Not even up for discussion actually and I can’t believe people actually think otherwise.
14 and 15 their defense was absolutely pitiful.
They lost so many games due to maddening coaching decisions and brutal game changing plays (such as Engram drops or INTs)
From 1966 - 1980 the Giants had no playoff appearances.
Before Parcells took over for him Ray Perkins coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 road playoff game
After Parcells left before the 1991 season RH coached the Giants for 2 years with 0 playoff wins
Dan Reeves coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 playoff game at home.
Jim Fassel coached the Giants for 7 years. He won 2 playoff games, both at home in 2000.
Tom Coughlin coached the Giants for 12 years and won 2 Super Bowls. Those 8 wins were the only playoff games he won and only 1 was at home.
Three coaches in 6 seasons. McAdoo 2 years, Shurmur 2 years, Judge 2 years, 0 playoff appearances.
Brian Daboll in year 2 has 1 road playoff win.
During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises.
In their 5 Super Bowl appearance seasons the Giants won 16 playoff games. The other 52 Super Bowl era seasons? 5 total playoff wins. 1 playoff win in 5 separate seasons. Parcells 2, Perkins 1, Reeves 1 and Daboll 1.
About 25ish teams would trade for that.
Maybe Coughlin will put that on his tombstone.
Great post. As Parcells once said, you can only get what college gives you. The Eli type QB doesn't really exist anymore. It is incredibly hard to have a strong OL.
Look at the Eagles. During the 2020 season when Wentz was getting destroyed, we heard a lot of fans say the Eagles OL was a weakness. Enter Hurts and it's an entirely new offense.
Quote:
The second half of Eli’s career was marred by bad offensive line play. There’s no doubt about that. That bad offensive line play in my opinion was the start of what we are seeing league wide in todays NFL. The college game has changed and isn’t producing strong lineman the way it used to. If Eli were a young prospect right now I’m not sure that he would have the success today he had during his prime years. Not because he’s a bad player by any means, but because of the fact that you can’t run a Gilbride style offense anymore that relies on 7 step drops and receivers running long, complex routes. The modern NFL favors a release in under 3 seconds.
Great post. As Parcells once said, you can only get what college gives you. The Eli type QB doesn't really exist anymore. It is incredibly hard to have a strong OL.
Look at the Eagles. During the 2020 season when Wentz was getting destroyed, we heard a lot of fans say the Eagles OL was a weakness. Enter Hurts and it's an entirely new offense.
No mention of the emergence of Jordan Maileta emerging in 2021 or how Jason Peters got injured that year? Also Lane Johnson was having injury and depression issues.
Some years were awful
Some years mediocre(Simms and Reeves)and Coughlin and Eli
Some years were shockers(Eli,Coughlin both SB runs)
But MOST years bad in last 20
Only the Parcells years(and a Perkins year) seemed to be a consistently good team
But that was defensive power which the NFL has hamstrung badly
I was at least hoping this year would be Collins-type year with all the WRs we got. At least crazy scoring nuts like last year's Vikings. Instead its some clunky tight West Coast offense and leaky OL
Terrible drafts
Over paying our own players
Not being able to identify team weakness
Inability to properly prioritize/value positions
Terrible coaching
I think that sums it up.
In 2017 Philly and Dallas each had three PB OL and WFT two. Probably three future HOF players at LT (Philly replaced it LT with another PB LT today). Kelce and Martin likely will be in the HOF as well. Both teams have had several other OL receive PB recognition. AT was a Pro Bowler last season. The last one before that for the Giants was Snee in 2012.
Sure, you can't have good OL lol.
Reality is Reese/Ross were just very poor at drafting. This extended to Dave on the OL (outside AT) and with JS now (Neal).
The CBA has had a impact but I think you just need to be that much better in identifying the right talent on the OL that can be developed which is harder in today's college game.
Poor drafts over a very long time period (especially on the lines) has been the biggest factor in the Giants downturn.
No.
did you miss?
I've rooted for the same 4 teams for almost 60 years, Giants, Yankees, Rangers, Knicks. The Giants have won more championships than the Rangers and Knicks combined.
I think it's a pretty simple answer if someone asked who would you rather root for the Andy Reid Eagles or the Tom Coughlin Giants. Or ask how heartbreaking it was to love the Emile Francis Rangers or the Pat Riley Knicks.
It's a not a secret that I'm not much of a Tom Coughlin fan but trust me I cherish those Super Bowl wins as much as the ones Parcells won and I would sign up for any coach to run one of my favorite teams for 12 years and win two championships, regardless of the other 10 years.
None of that changes my expansion of the OP topic or the fact that for 52 of the 57 seasons in Super Bowl era the Giants were horrible much more often than they were good. No one can ever accuse Giants fans of being front runners. If you're a long time Giants fan you paid your dues to enjoy those Super Bowl seasons.
Quote:
During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises.
did you miss?
I've rooted for the same 4 teams for almost 60 years, Giants, Yankees, Rangers, Knicks. The Giants have won more championships than the Rangers and Knicks combined.
I think it's a pretty simple answer if someone asked who would you rather root for the Andy Reid Eagles or the Tom Coughlin Giants. Or ask how heartbreaking it was to love the Emile Francis Rangers or the Pat Riley Knicks.
It's a not a secret that I'm not much of a Tom Coughlin fan but trust me I cherish those Super Bowl wins as much as the ones Parcells won and I would sign up for any coach to run one of my favorite teams for 12 years and win two championships, regardless of the other 10 years.
None of that changes my expansion of the OP topic or the fact that for 52 of the 57 seasons in Super Bowl era the Giants were horrible much more often than they were good. No one can ever accuse Giants fans of being front runners. If you're a long time Giants fan you paid your dues to enjoy those Super Bowl seasons.
For the storied franchise that they are, and for the Glory of their Championships, they are ranked near the top in these, the Giants have been too susceptible to extended droughts of losing football, the most recent being 2010 - 2021
For me it didn’t match the futility of. 1064-1980, but it was similar
I have a theory of why they seem susceptible to this, loyalty gets in the way of good business, staying too long with “their people”.
This ranges from hiring Alex Webster as a coach, to more recently staying too long with Eli, with many other examples in between
But who knows, just my opinion
I have concerns they will do the same with Jones. We'll see.
Things can't be "perfect" around a QB. It is an idealistic way of thinking.
Quote:
which part of:
Quote:
During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises.
did you miss?
I've rooted for the same 4 teams for almost 60 years, Giants, Yankees, Rangers, Knicks. The Giants have won more championships than the Rangers and Knicks combined.
I think it's a pretty simple answer if someone asked who would you rather root for the Andy Reid Eagles or the Tom Coughlin Giants. Or ask how heartbreaking it was to love the Emile Francis Rangers or the Pat Riley Knicks.
It's a not a secret that I'm not much of a Tom Coughlin fan but trust me I cherish those Super Bowl wins as much as the ones Parcells won and I would sign up for any coach to run one of my favorite teams for 12 years and win two championships, regardless of the other 10 years.
None of that changes my expansion of the OP topic or the fact that for 52 of the 57 seasons in Super Bowl era the Giants were horrible much more often than they were good. No one can ever accuse Giants fans of being front runners. If you're a long time Giants fan you paid your dues to enjoy those Super Bowl seasons.
For the storied franchise that they are, and for the Glory of their Championships, they are ranked near the top in these, the Giants have been too susceptible to extended droughts of losing football, the most recent being 2010 - 2021
For me it didn’t match the futility of. 1064-1980, but it was similar
I have a theory of why they seem susceptible to this, loyalty gets in the way of good business, staying too long with “their people”.
This ranges from hiring Alex Webster as a coach, to more recently staying too long with Eli, with many other examples in between
But who knows, just my opinion
They are a risk averse franchise, which has its positives in terms of being an overall respected and a good environment to work, but can negatively affect winning by not turning things over quickly and comprehensively enough.
I feel like Accorsi - in retrospect - was one of the major exceptions here. He made aggressive moves to improve the team. People forgot he got widely criticized for signing Kerry Collins in 1999 when Kent Graham was the presumed QB. Trading for Eli and/or drafting a QB in 2004 was absolutely not a unanimous decision either. Many wanted to stick with KC and draft Gallery and/or Taylor.
+1. Elway spurning the Colts in 1984, turning Accorsi into Captain Ahab searching for his white whale franchise QB, was ulitimately a huge benefit for the Giants.
Same thing goes on today. They are the ones the started the dumb "Killdrive" stuff and forced out one of the most innovative minds on offense, the equally stupid "it's time" crap with Coughlin and beat the drum over Manning's age. They carried Jerry Reese's and his henchman Ross' water for 10 years when it was obvious they weren't getting the job done.
You know the difference between the Giants and the Steelers, another family owned business? The Rooneys don't listen to sporting press horseshit. The sporting press tried to float nonsense about getting rid of Tomlin last season. It went nowhere because the Rooneys don't chase people out who bring them success. The Steelers went from an absolute laughingstock that hadn't been to a playoff game in 22 years when they hired Chuck Noll in 1969 to 30 seasons of playoff appearances and 8 SB appearances in the last 50 years. They have had 3 coaches during that time and each one brought hardware. Coincidence? Anyone notice their record over the last 10 years posted above?
Keep listening to the sporting press.
Same thing goes on today. They are the ones the started the dumb "Killdrive" stuff and forced out one of the most innovative minds on offense, the equally stupid "it's time" crap with Coughlin and beat the drum over Manning's age. They carried Jerry Reese's and his henchman Ross' water for 10 years when it was obvious they weren't getting the job done.
You know the difference between the Giants and the Steelers, another family owned business? The Rooneys don't listen to sporting press horseshit. The sporting press tried to float nonsense about getting rid of Tomlin last season. It went nowhere because the Rooneys don't chase people out who bring them success. The Steelers went from an absolute laughingstock that hadn't been to a playoff game in 22 years when they hired Chuck Noll in 1969 to 30 seasons of playoff appearances and 8 SB appearances in the last 50 years. They have had 3 coaches during that time and each one brought hardware. Coincidence? Anyone notice their record over the last 10 years posted above?
Keep listening to the sporting press.
See, I feel it's quite the opposite: the team responds to media pressue but is often a step too late and takes the path of least resistance to make changes. A bold move would've been to send both Coughlin and Reese packing after 2013 and 5 straight years of borderline .500 ball.
A bold move would've been hiring an actual coach in 2016, not an underqualified guy simply because Eli improved his numbers when he was OC and Eagles leaked that they were interested.
A bold move would've been to take a swing at Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen in 2018 instead of re-shuffling mediocre coaches and go with Eli again because of a fan backlash.
Contrary to going overboard with reacting to the press, this team just makes half-assed changes until 2022 (and even then, we're still trotting out Gettleman's core).
Along those lines, I've come to understand Gettleman was a symptom, not architect of the problem.
I think John Mara had a crippling sense of sentimentality and allegiance to the cornerstones of the championship run.
That group represented both the last hand prints of his father, and the first triumphs for the organization fully under John's control.
I think the thought process that unfolded was: we can let Tom go because we still have Jerry, we can let Jerry go because we can bring back Dave, but no matter what we do we can't hurt Eli's feelings.
As anyone who has ran a complex successful organization knows, there are two golden rules.
1) It takes a many high performing individuals to reach and stay at the top
2) For reasons not always known, those individuals sometimes stop performing
And again, I still think that 2018 team was pretty decent and could have been a playoff team, Shurmur was absolutely horrific.
Nicks and JPP - yes.
Beatty constantly hurt.
Prince was an ok corner.
2012 - no impact players
2013 - no impact players - Pugh was average and Hankins was a DT who couldn't rush the passer and didn't get a second contract.
3 drafts in a row where Reese took 22 players, and not a single one of them was good.
So, that is 2 players out of 35 picks from 2010-2014 that really had any major impact on the team. Joseph was solid, but again, let's not act like he was some force. Decent pick, nothing special.
2 players out of 34 that had a major impact on Giant football from 2010-2014. That is astounding.
So yeah, excuse us if we think Eli got shafted during those years. Reese should have been fired for malpractice.
Thursday Night Football: 3-8
Sunday Night Football: 23-32-1
Monday Night Football: 25-46-1
The New York Football Giants Lifetime Record in Prime Time games:
51 wins - 86 loses - 2 ties. A .374 winning percentage.
The New York Football Giants Lifetime Record past 162 games from the OP:
62 wins - 99 loses - 1 ties. A .386 winning percentage.
I'm pretty sure I've seen all of those prime time games, some of them in person. A coincidence that those records are so similar?
I completely understand why the things I post annoy some of you. Ok boomer is a very fair response most of the time.
Maybe the Giants record in Prime Time will give some of our younger BBI members more insight into why some of us boomers see the Giants the way we do. In the Super Bowl era. 5-0 in NFC championship games. 4-1 in Super Bowl appearances. The other 52 years? 5 playoff wins total.
Mostly famine but when we feast, we really feast.
Thursday Night Football: 3-8
Sunday Night Football: 23-32-1
Monday Night Football: 25-46-1
The New York Football Giants Lifetime Record in Prime Time games:
51 wins - 86 loses - 2 ties. A .374 winning percentage.
The New York Football Giants Lifetime Record past 162 games from the OP:
62 wins - 99 loses - 1 ties. A .386 winning percentage.
I'm pretty sure I've seen all of those prime time games, some of them in person. A coincidence that those records are so similar?
I completely understand why the things I post annoy some of you. Ok boomer is a very fair response most of the time.
Maybe the Giants record in Prime Time will give some of our younger BBI members more insight into why some of us boomers see the Giants the way we do. In the Super Bowl era. 5-0 in NFC championship games. 4-1 in Super Bowl appearances. The other 52 years? 5 playoff wins total.
Mostly famine but when we feast, we really feast.
It's all true. But equally bizarre the Giants are 5-0 in NFC title games. 4-1 in Super Bowls. Those records are ridiculously good. The prime time record is just as bad.
It's hard to explain. The Giants are the most opportunistic team in the NFL once they get to the final 4.
Quote:
In comment 16222539 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better?
So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!!
LOL
Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018.
I can't even believe this is a debate.
And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.
It’s amazing how posters shit on QBs from the Giants consistently and make excuses for every other QB in the league.
I mean we have one poster openly saying a WR not getting open has no affect on Jones play. It’s amazing at this point.
"At this point"?
Compared to what prior point?
What were your previous handles?
All Hankins could do is rush the passer, he had 7 sacks his second year when he was a full time starter.
Fabulous evaluation of Amukamara. It couldn't be that he missed considerable time each year as a Giant? No, he just sucked. Lord.
There's no question the Giants had poor drafts in 2011 and 2012. But there is no 4-year period where they didn't pick a single impact player. That's just classic Ryan.
A lot of these teams have had stable coaching and QB play for long periods of time. They are also pretty aggressive about moving on when either of these things don't seem to be working anymore.
-Ravens fired Billick after his team failed to make the playoffs 3 out of four seasons
-The Eagles fired Reid after two consecutive non-playoff seasons, and the Eagles have been pretty ruthless about jettisoning their coach and QBs once the returns are diminished
-Seahawks shipped Russ out the moment he started on his decline
-Chiefs and Rams both made aggressive moves to upgrade their QBs when it looked like they hit a ceiling
Yes, the Bears serve as a counter-example, when you could potentially end up in a continuous churn of replacing coaches and QBs. But the Giants have often been a step behind, risk-averse, and half-assed in making changes. They really want their people to succeed and are loyal, so they are often too late and piecemeal in making changes.
Schoen/Daboll were a good effort to turn around this process and put everyone on the same timeline, however. I hope their investment in Jones works out, and they don't hesitate to make an aggressive move if it doesn't.
There are people still outraged that Coughlin was fired after missing the playoffs four straight times and six out of seven seasons.
There are people still outraged that Coughlin was fired after missing the playoffs four straight times and six out of seven seasons.
Are you serious? Take a look at the Ravens roster in Billick's last season. I actually remember Lewis being interviewed and saying that the team lost faith in Billick. Green Bay also had a quality roster though not quite as strong.
Are you suggesting that the 2015 Giants roster was a good one? Why did Reese spend 200 million dollars on the D the following offseason? The big problem in 2015 was not the O though that took a dive in 2016.
There are fans who would've preferred Coughlin coach until he dropped on the sidelines.
What more evidence would anyone need?