NYG Over 10 Years: Sobering

thing I noticed when it
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that outside of two glorious months (which to be clear I would happily take in exchange for the rest), we have been one of the worst teams in all of professional sports in the 21st century.

that has nothing to do with Schoen and Daboll. I'm all in on letting them do their complete rebuild. And this season is quite young.

In comment 16222348 pjcas18 said:

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thing I noticed when it link - ( New Window )

Sorry #18:

Didn't mean to steal your fire there.

Makes me want to kill a keg alone while listening to sad music.

Let that sink in.

horrible football games but none of those teams had the talent of this team, that is what is so depressing. Sure, there were great individual players along the way but none that had this many good players. It could be I'm over estimating the current talent, but I do see a lot of really good players on this team.

Because the record I have enjoyed in that time is 4-1. The loses just make those wins even more enjoyable.

In comment 16222367 GruningsOnTheHill said:

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In comment 16222348 pjcas18 said: Quote: thing I noticed when it link - ( New Window ) Sorry #18: Didn't mean to steal your fire there.

lol, NBG, no fire stealing, just thought you might like to see some of the discussion from when it was posted before.

on February 6, 2012, it has been an unmitigated nightmare

The night the Giants improved to 6-2 with Dez Bryant's finger tips touching the white on that catch out of bounds. Everyone was bracing for Sandy. What followed the next decade no one could have expected. That was the inflection point.

The QB play during this duration has not been good. Aside from 2015 and 2022, the Giants did not have particularly strong QB play. I love Eli as much as anyone, but the second half of his career was a struggle.

When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that.

'12 season went off the rails post Sandy.

In comment 16222406 Sean said:

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The QB play during this duration has not been good. Aside from 2015 and 2022, the Giants did not have particularly strong QB play. I love Eli as much as anyone, but the second half of his career was a struggle. When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that.

Eli didn't change. The team around him did.

SMH

I don't even remember feeling this way in the 70s. Maybe I was busy with college then. Or maybe now that the number of seasons ahead of me is shrinking fast, the losing is harder to take. Other activities beckon.

Plus I have generally found the NFL pretty dull this year. A lot of uncompetitive games and a lot of the competitive games aren't interesting.

In comment 16222417 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16222406 Sean said: Quote: The QB play during this duration has not been good. Aside from 2015 and 2022, the Giants did not have particularly strong QB play. I love Eli as much as anyone, but the second half of his career was a struggle. When you don't have elite QB play generally, you will struggle. Yes, the OL has been bad. But it isn't only that. Eli didn't change. The team around him did. SMH

Eli declined. How is this still a debate?

Eli threw for 4500 yards and 30 TDs.

I’m 2016, he threw for 4000 yards and 26 TDs.

I mean those aren’t bad numbers whatsoever.

Had terrible support cast notably on his blocking. Ereck Flowers had no business ever being a top 10 pick much less a starter for a number of years. They trot out Larry Donnell to start.

Ben was washed for several years before he retired but they had excellent surroundings for him.

But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking.

In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said:

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But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking.

Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol.

But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.

In comment 16222457 JT039 said:

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In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said: Quote: But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking. Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol. But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces.

You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring.

In comment 16222467 Sean said:

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In comment 16222457 JT039 said: Quote: In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said: Quote: But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking. Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol. But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces. You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring.

And what were the other options on offense? Rashad Jennings? Larry Donnell? Will Tye? Rueben Randle?

I mean come on. Like I said - if he had the right pieces. Those aren’t pieces. Those are replacement players.

They jettison him after 2015. And added a washed up Victor Cruz. Even better!

In comment 16222470 JT039 said:

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In comment 16222467 Sean said: Quote: In comment 16222457 JT039 said: Quote: In comment 16222453 ajr2456 said: Quote: But acting like Eli didn’t also decline is wishful thinking. Of course he declined. He was nearly 40 lol. But through 2014-2016 he was still good enough to win a lot of games if they had the pieces. You can add 2014. 2016 was a slant to Beckham and a dominant defense. The Giants offense in 2016 had a problem scoring. And what were the other options on offense? Rashad Jennings? Larry Donnell? Will Tye? Rueben Randle? I mean come on. Like I said - if he had the right pieces. Those aren’t pieces. Those are replacement players.

C'mon. There were major red flags that Eli was in decline in 2016. The o-line and weapons outside of OBJ were dogshit in 2014 and 2015, too.

Of protecting your statue QB who doesn't want to take as many hits, let us draft a RE who also can't block instead of the best OT available. And ignore Andrew Whitworth's plea to sign on.

They had Bobby Hart and Ereck Flowers, afterall.

In comment 16222481 Toth029 said:

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Of protecting your statue QB who doesn't want to take as many hits, let us draft a RE who also can't block instead of the best OT available. And ignore Andrew Whitworth's plea to sign on. They had Bobby Hart and Ereck Flowers, afterall.

TE, typo.

To add to that. They really sucked at drafting period from 2011 on. And they really sucked after the early rounds, so depth became a major problem in the 2010s.

In comment 16222478 NYG07 said:

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In comment 16222470 JT039 said: C'mon. There were major red flags that Eli was in decline in 2016. The o-line and weapons outside of OBJ were dogshit in 2014 and 2015, too.

Of course Eli was in decline in 2016. I mean no one is gonna say he was as good as he was in 2011. So yes he was in decline. But as bad as Randle was - Cruz was worse. Jennings was awful in 2016. And Cruz’s career was over and he was our number 2.

And remind me how Eli looked in the playoff game?

Eli was damn good in '15. That might have been his best statistical season, though I still think '11 was his best season overall. We don't win it all in '11 without Eli having that season.

"Just protect the QB." The Giants tried that. Eli was not as elusive in the pocket and what made him great with Gilbride he kind of lost later on, he got more gun shy. He threw less picks, took less shots down the field. I'm sure OL played a role over the years and impacted his eye level.

In an ideal world, the Giants would have had a great OL and numerous weapons on offense and Eli could have fired darts all over the field. Generally it doesn't work that way.

For the most part from 2012 - 2022, NYG did not have top ten QB play. There were multiple reasons for that, but I don't that that's outrageous.

In comment 16222486 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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Eli was damn good in '15. That might have been his best statistical season, though I still think '11 was his best season overall. We don't win it all in '11 without Eli having that season.

Eli carried the team in 2011. That was peak Eli imo.

are the exception. Eli had decent td numbers but his qbr and ratings were not particularly good in 14 and downright bad 16-19. He was not the same player and definitely seemed to not hang in the pocket and deliver balls downfield the same way. But the rest of the team has been bad and a bigger problem as well.

It's a debate because you are wrong. Simply wrong.

It's as if you didn't even watch the games after 2011.

I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better?

...in the first Redskins he took a huge shot late in the game, then threw an INT on the final drive.

After that, things just seemed different.

But from 2012-2015 he was putting up good numbers (sans 2013 which was a BAD team) and we lost many a game due to defense.

In comment 16222539 ajr2456 said:

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I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better?

So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!!

LOL

Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018.

I can't even believe this is a debate.

And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.

In comment 16222548 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16222539 ajr2456 said: Quote: I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better? So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!! LOL Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018. I can't even believe this is a debate. And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.

It’s amazing how posters shit on QBs from the Giants consistently and make excuses for every other QB in the league.

I mean we have one poster openly saying a WR not getting open has no affect on Jones play. It’s amazing at this point.

In comment 16222531 Eric from BBI said:

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It's a debate because you are wrong. Simply wrong. It's as if you didn't even watch the games after 2011.

Evan Engram of all people said he looked up to Eli in learning how to be a professional. The reason he stated was how bad the line was around him and never gave him time and he never pointed the finger at anyone.

Now we have people like the owner, Golden Tate, Kyle Rudolph saying how much Jones has been screwed over by circumstances out of his control but we still have the QB pitchfork whiners saying the same thing

with the exception of the Parcells glory years from 84-90 has been much worse than most people realize. Parcells won 4 home playoff games from 1984-1990. Since he resigned 32 years ago the Giants have won 4 home playoff games total.

From 1966 - 1980 the Giants had no playoff appearances.

Before Parcells took over for him Ray Perkins coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 road playoff game

After Parcells left before the 1991 season RH coached the Giants for 2 years with 0 playoff wins

Dan Reeves coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 playoff game at home.

Jim Fassel coached the Giants for 7 years. He won 2 playoff games, both at home in 2000.

Tom Coughlin coached the Giants for 12 years and won 2 Super Bowls. Those 8 wins were the only playoff games he won and only 1 was at home.

Three coaches in 6 seasons. McAdoo 2 years, Shurmur 2 years, Judge 2 years, 0 playoff appearances.

Brian Daboll in year 2 has 1 road playoff win.

During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises.

In their 5 Super Bowl appearance seasons the Giants won 16 playoff games. The other 52 Super Bowl era seasons? 5 total playoff wins. 1 playoff win in 5 separate seasons. Parcells 2, Perkins 1, Reeves 1 and Daboll 1.

In comment 16222548 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16222539 ajr2456 said: Quote: I don’t think you watched the games after 2011. If he wasn’t declining why did Jones step in in 2019 and the offense looked better? So your argument that he declined is to point to the year where he freaking retired??!!! LOL Years of bad offensive lines (including 2011), bad defense (including 2011), and no running game (including 2011) was an obvious factor on Giants teams in 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018. I can't even believe this is a debate. And to be honest, I'm not wasting my time even arguing this with you. It's pointless.

You’re literally making the point for me. Eli was able to overcome all those things in 2011 and as the years went on he was able to overcome them. It’s not shitting on Eli to admit he started to decline after 2015.

And yes, 2019 is the only year where there’s a data point to compare against but I’m sure if you threw in a young athletic QB into 2017 or 2018 the offense would have looked improved.

Eli declined because he got older, and unlike some other QBs the Giants also didn’t put a good team around him. It’s ok, multiple things are allowed to be true at the same time - there’s no need for a temper tantrum about it.

Eli Manning was a great QB who declined in his late 30s. Everyone does.

That should say.

Eli was awesome in 2015 and came out absolutely swinging against Green Bay in the 2016 playoff game.

14, 15, 16 Eli was good. Not even up for discussion actually and I can’t believe people actually think otherwise.

14 and 15 their defense was absolutely pitiful.

Moreover, Eli was actually pretty good in 2018!

I still contend that with decent coaching, there’s a chance that first Shurmur team and Barkley rookie year wins 9 games.

They lost so many games due to maddening coaching decisions and brutal game changing plays (such as Engram drops or INTs)

In comment 16222564 arniefez said:

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with the exception of the Parcells glory years from 84-90 has been much worse than most people realize. Parcells won 4 home playoff games from 1984-1990. Since he resigned 32 years ago the Giants have won 4 home playoff games total. From 1966 - 1980 the Giants had no playoff appearances. Before Parcells took over for him Ray Perkins coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 road playoff game After Parcells left before the 1991 season RH coached the Giants for 2 years with 0 playoff wins Dan Reeves coached the Giants for 4 years and won 1 playoff game at home. Jim Fassel coached the Giants for 7 years. He won 2 playoff games, both at home in 2000. Tom Coughlin coached the Giants for 12 years and won 2 Super Bowls. Those 8 wins were the only playoff games he won and only 1 was at home. Three coaches in 6 seasons. McAdoo 2 years, Shurmur 2 years, Judge 2 years, 0 playoff appearances. Brian Daboll in year 2 has 1 road playoff win. During the Super Bowl era, 57 years, The Giants have won 4 Super Bowls and been to 5. Pretty impressive and better than most franchises. In their 5 Super Bowl appearance seasons the Giants won 16 playoff games. The other 52 Super Bowl era seasons? 5 total playoff wins. 1 playoff win in 5 separate seasons. Parcells 2, Perkins 1, Reeves 1 and Daboll 1.

About 25ish teams would trade for that.

LOL. “Those 8 wins were the only playoff games he won.”

Maybe Coughlin will put that on his tombstone.

The second half of Eli’s career was marred by bad offensive line play. There’s no doubt about that. That bad offensive line play in my opinion was the start of what we are seeing league wide in todays NFL. The college game has changed and isn’t producing strong lineman the way it used to. If Eli were a young prospect right now I’m not sure that he would have the success today he had during his prime years. Not because he’s a bad player by any means, but because of the fact that you can’t run a Gilbride style offense anymore that relies on 7 step drops and receivers running long, complex routes. The modern NFL favors a release in under 3 seconds.

In comment 16222600 eric2425ny said:

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The second half of Eli’s career was marred by bad offensive line play. There’s no doubt about that. That bad offensive line play in my opinion was the start of what we are seeing league wide in todays NFL. The college game has changed and isn’t producing strong lineman the way it used to. If Eli were a young prospect right now I’m not sure that he would have the success today he had during his prime years. Not because he’s a bad player by any means, but because of the fact that you can’t run a Gilbride style offense anymore that relies on 7 step drops and receivers running long, complex routes. The modern NFL favors a release in under 3 seconds.

Great post. As Parcells once said, you can only get what college gives you. The Eli type QB doesn't really exist anymore. It is incredibly hard to have a strong OL.

Look at the Eagles. During the 2020 season when Wentz was getting destroyed, we heard a lot of fans say the Eagles OL was a weakness. Enter Hurts and it's an entirely new offense.

In comment 16222610 Sean said:

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In comment 16222600 eric2425ny said: Quote: The second half of Eli’s career was marred by bad offensive line play. There’s no doubt about that. That bad offensive line play in my opinion was the start of what we are seeing league wide in todays NFL. The college game has changed and isn’t producing strong lineman the way it used to. If Eli were a young prospect right now I’m not sure that he would have the success today he had during his prime years. Not because he’s a bad player by any means, but because of the fact that you can’t run a Gilbride style offense anymore that relies on 7 step drops and receivers running long, complex routes. The modern NFL favors a release in under 3 seconds. Great post. As Parcells once said, you can only get what college gives you. The Eli type QB doesn't really exist anymore. It is incredibly hard to have a strong OL. Look at the Eagles. During the 2020 season when Wentz was getting destroyed, we heard a lot of fans say the Eagles OL was a weakness. Enter Hurts and it's an entirely new offense.

No mention of the emergence of Jordan Maileta emerging in 2021 or how Jason Peters got injured that year? Also Lane Johnson was having injury and depression issues.

Some years were fun(Fassel and Collins)
Some years were awful
Some years mediocre(Simms and Reeves)and Coughlin and Eli
Some years were shockers(Eli,Coughlin both SB runs)
But MOST years bad in last 20
Only the Parcells years(and a Perkins year) seemed to be a consistently good team
But that was defensive power which the NFL has hamstrung badly
I was at least hoping this year would be Collins-type year with all the WRs we got. At least crazy scoring nuts like last year's Vikings. Instead its some clunky tight West Coast offense and leaky OL

Terrible fa acquisitions.

Terrible drafts

Over paying our own players

Not being able to identify team weakness

Inability to properly prioritize/value positions

Terrible coaching

I think that sums it up.