Has this team under Scoen and Daboll always been about 2024?

missing on so many draft picks to date, including guys who are playing, but probably won't get second contracts, would seem to set that back. Also, a good chance we move on from Saquon next year

18 months ago, I think it was/is clear. Now, need the draft picks to start making their presence felt and GROW.

if things goes the right way. Doesn't always manifest into the wins and losses but when a program builder comes in and makes his mark on a franchise, more often than not you see that roster peak in terms of depth and star power in year 3 or so. I am only basing this on Parcells, Coughlin and Fassel--but even glancing at the Chiefs under Reid or the Pats under Belichick or Harbaugh in Balt, you will see similar results.

Doesn't mean this regime peaks in years 3-5, but it's not crazy to suggest that the roster is far from a finished product.

on both sides of the ball but that player needs to be great. If you added a 28 year old Michael Strahan to the D and a 28 year old Chris Snee to the OL and then saw Neal develop into a slightly above average tackle, the center continue to develop-- Thibs develops into a good starting edge, the corners develop....I think that team discovers a sustainable identity. A lot of IFS, but at some point we need to hit on picks..

Great players are hard to find. They make the world of difference.

They were hoping good coaching and a few breaks could make them competitive in the meantime, but I don't think the were targeting to win anything of meaning until 2024 when they made their plans.

With that being said, I still think we can get things together and have a competitive season this year.

What evidence is there to suggest this team is ready to beat Dallas and Philly consistently by next season?

yes

Screwed themselves setting the bar high in year one of rebuilding.

And trying to make something out of it. You want to put a date on that, good luck.

It’s an interesting question that can also be seen as a convenient excuse for a 2023 season that is quickly getting away from the Giants.

It’s always felt like a three year rebuild. I think LW and Jackson returning next year is very unlikely so Schoen being willing to eat their cap hits this year to prevent more dead money in future years shows they want the flexibility to make some moves next offseason in addition to the draft.

If they were all in for this year I think you would have seen restructures, a push to sign a bigger name WR, etc.

success muddied the waters about how to proceed.

Trust the process

Last year's run of good fortune notwithstanding, the realistic viewpoint is that it would take two years to deal with a brutal cap situation combined with talent/depth deficiencies.

9-7-1 plus a playoff victory made a lot of people forget that.

This team that much? High end / high performing FAs work best when they join a team with a solid roster.

Joe Schoen has got to get his house in order with a minimum of 3 or 4 solid Drafts. Without that, Giants will continue to carry their shine box for Philly snd Dallas.

to have a 3 year plan when the last 3 coaches lasted 2 years or less.

"rebuilds" are a fan term. the nfl is a constant build. they are trying to win every year and every week.

planning to win someday ensures you won't live to see it.

a roughly .500 record will get you to the dance, then it's any given sunday.

heartache. Look for improvement. I know the first 3 games haven't been great. But I still have more confidence in this staff to get more out of players than ones in the past. Will they be succesful with every player? no. Last year was a lot better than most expected. Going into this year some had high hopes. I figured there would be a sophmore fall back, but still thought .500 record there abouts. I wanted one win each against Dallas and Philly. I didn't think we'd beat 49ers in the preseason and after the 1st two games thought they did better than I expected. I want to see a competitive team. I want to see improvement in the majority of players. I want to see as many good decisions as possible by the FO, the staff and by players. I'm hopeful this year and even more so for next but it maybe a longer haul than that.

The fact that we won in 2022 and made the playsoffs and won a playoff game is completely amazing.

The idea that have until 2024 to compete for the super bowl is kind of silly. I don't buy it. They will have to prove they can beat Philly and Dallas first and foremost.

Williams and Jackson could both be re-signed in the offseason. Same with McKinney. Same with Barkley.

This front office has surprised me a few times with moves.

In comment 16223074 dancing blue bear said:

Quote:

to have a 3 year plan when the last 3 coaches lasted 2 years or less. "rebuilds" are a fan term. the nfl is a constant build. they are trying to win every year and every week. planning to win someday ensures you won't live to see it. a roughly .500 record will get you to the dance, then it's any given sunday.

It is not ridiculous when the roster was so weak and the cap situation was so tight. Last year was start and survive. Start the evaluation process. Rebuild the scouting staff. Implement a whole new offensive and defensive philosophy.

Based on several good drafts and free agent additions
Having said that, those 2 first round picks in 2022 need to really step it up.

I was thinking 6-7 wins. I didn’t expect a Giant leap backward.

If the Giants can create some continuity along the offensive line where only one player is struggling and needs help, and if Wink can figure out how to improve the pass rush with the current defensive group,

I think more than 6-7 wins is still possible if everything is settled soon. One win and two competitive losses would keep the team on track. Anything less than that would mean a rebuild within the rebuild.

"Doctor gave the patient six months to live. The patient couldn't pay the bill so the doctor gave him another six months . . ."

No one was saying that last season. Schoen signed who he wanted to sign, extended who he want to extend and traded for who he want to trade for. None of those moves said "next year" and much of it was keeping the guys he wanted to keep. Of course now that the bill is coming due so to speak, all of a sudden it's "next season." No.

Imagine this defense without Williams,
McKinney Jackson and Simmons

Nightmare around the corner

In comment 16223155 Hilary said:

Quote:

Imagine this defense without Williams, McKinney Jackson and Simmons Nightmare around the corner

We don't have to imagine it. We see their disappearing act each weekend.

When you see one (anyone) of these guys makes a difference over a few games then you can start having nightmares. But I think you're safe.

If they thought this year was a wash, why would they have back loaded Jones' contract? He has a cap hit of 15 mil this year, and 47 next year. If they didn't think they could compete this year, they would have front loaded it.

This is also why Jones' play/production (whether his fault or not) is worrisome. If he continues to play and produce like this, they won't be keen on moving next year's money back because that would guarantee more future money. So, weather it's his fault, the OL's fault, or whatever, he needs to play better and produce more, or he will go into the absolute make or break year with a massive cap hit, which would hinder the teams ability to improve around him.

They want to win now, while also trying to build out a long-term competitive roster.
I do think most of the "big" names mentioned will be gone next season, and frankly its a stretch to see any of them as a significant loss.
But all told, if the kids don't step up, this will be a loooooong process

In comment 16223151 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

No one was saying that last season.

That’s not fair at all. We all knew there was some overachieving going on last season - anyone who didn’t got a dose of reality against Philly in the playoffs. A regression this year is anticipated - we’ll see how it goes. The doom and gloom on the state of the franchise is a bit premature.

Their actions certainly don't dictate that.

Lets be honest, Schoen needs to prove he can find good players. Not saying he can't but he's yet to show that.

In comment 16223155 Hilary said:

Quote:

Imagine this defense without Williams, McKinney Jackson and Simmons Nightmare around the corner

Simmons? He's staving off the nightmare right now?

Just reading is always an option for some of you.

In comment 16223164 Blue The Dog said:

Quote:

If they thought this year was a wash, why would they have back loaded Jones' contract? He has a cap hit of 15 mil this year, and 47 next year. If they didn't think they could compete this year, they would have front loaded it. This is also why Jones' play/production (whether his fault or not) is worrisome. If he continues to play and produce like this, they won't be keen pon moving next year's money back because that would guarantee more future money. So, weather it's his fault, the OL's fault, or whatever, he needs to play better and produce more, or he will go into the absolute make or break year with a massive cap hit, which would hinder the teams ability to improve around him.

We have also been pushing cap $s into ‘24 to pay for this year’s roster. ‘24 doesn’t seem like a target to me either.

Beyond DJ, players like AT, Dex and now (to a lesser extent) Gano have ‘24 contracts jump before decreasing in ‘25, which seems more like the ‘go for it’ year. Especially since Philly will start paying for their players (both on and off the roster) by then.

What moves did they not make this off-season?

In comment 16223184 bceagle05 said:

Quote:

In comment 16223151 HomerJones45 said: Quote: No one was saying that last season. That’s not fair at all. We all knew there was some overachieving going on last season - anyone who didn’t got a dose of reality against Philly in the playoffs. A regression this year is anticipated - we’ll see how it goes. The doom and gloom on the state of the franchise is a bit premature.

I don't see a lot of people here who were logical in expectations of a regression year. I think a lot of fans on BBI saw 9 wins, liked the draft, and was expecting this team to be better than 2022.

It is a common mistake here to think that players and teams only ever get better and never have bumps in growth and development.

That takes time. They said they would not be aggressive in FA because they don't have the resources. So this is where we are there are still holes all over and we have to be patient with the young players to develop.

No. But if we don't win vs. Seattle, we might be talking about 2024 a helluva lot sooner than most of us anticipated a month ago.

this is pure hopium. Teams don't need 3 year rebuilds if they have the right coaches and execs. Every year where you're paying a 2nd/3rd contract QB is a win-now year.

In comment 16223266 Shady Lurker said:

Quote:

this is pure hopium. Teams don't need 3 year rebuilds if they have the right coaches and execs. Every year where you're paying a 2nd/3rd contract QB is a win-now year.

San Francisco has been a model franchise and Shanahan has been a top of the league coach with no quarterback and yet they started out 6-10 in year 1 and 4-12 in year two.

Buffalo went 9-7 and 6-10 in their first two seasons of rebuild and didn't win a playoff game until year four with McDermott.

There's no one recipe or "way it should look" to build a team.


It works both ways. You can star

I don't think so. I think the idea was the team is playing in a weak NFC and that Jones could take another step with another weapon, the OL playing better, etc.

Pre-hire, I'm sure Schoen made it clear that this was a multi-year process. Three most probable number.

Since then many high-upside bets have been made. On paper and thus-far, this last draft was unpredictably great in filling immediate needs while building.

Also, last year exceeded expectations.

Put all together, expectation going in was likely 3 years to realistically contend. Still is, since all know many bets must pay off. But, hope raised significantly for the team to exceed expectations this season.

In comment 16223341 HBart said:

Quote:

Pre-hire, I'm sure Schoen made it clear that this was a multi-year process. Three most probable number. Since then many high-upside bets have been made. On paper and thus-far, this last draft was unpredictably great in filling immediate needs while building. Also, last year exceeded expectations. Put all together, expectation going in was likely 3 years to realistically contend. Still is, since all know many bets must pay off. But, hope raised significantly for the team to exceed expectations this season.

What was your view on the offensive line headed into this season?

In comment 16223155 Hilary said:

Quote:

Imagine this defense without Williams, McKinney Jackson and Simmons Nightmare around the corner

Given Jackson and Williams cap hits, they can then afford another starting caliber OL if one may hit FA, or add a piece somewhere at OLB if one is worthwhile.

In comment 16223151 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

"Doctor gave the patient six months to live. The patient couldn't pay the bill so the doctor gave him another six months . . ." No one was saying that last season. Schoen signed who he wanted to sign, extended who he want to extend and traded for who he want to trade for. None of those moves said "next year" and much of it was keeping the guys he wanted to keep. Of course now that the bill is coming due so to speak, all of a sudden it's "next season." No.

I agree with this

Correct. GM has to walk the line of putting the best team possible out there each year, but also has to plan beyond the season at hand. That's both in terms of expectations, talent, remaining holes, cap allocation, and contingencies in case of injuries or suckage.

He's also going to run into situations and questions where he will do and say one thing publicly, but hold a different actual position in his head he's working off of.

So, put the best team possible in 2023, but he had to know (I hope) the team still had considerable holes and talent gaps, AND that 2023 and growth really rely on their high end draft picks etc growing up.

both things can be true, you do the best you can to win in 2023, but you plan for one or both to fail as best as you can and continue to prepare for 2024.

...

In comment 16223875 gidiefor said:

Quote:

...

yes for all we know, this team could be the reverse of last season and go in a run toward the end of the season. Much too early.

out there that can help and the cap always restricts what you can do. They signed a bunch of guys, and traded for others.

I suspect they thought they had the horses on the OL, and that Neal would start living up to his draft number. He hasn't and some of the other plans have obviously not worked out.

But I don't think the team was thinking wait until next year over the summer. And look, its been three games against two really hard opponents. Its way too early to make judgements about this team anyway.

they made what moves they could to improve the team this past off season.

Also seems to me many people thought the season was going to be more competitive, but only delusional rosy eyed fans believed this was THE year.

In comment 16223355 giantsfanforlife said:

Quote:

In comment 16223341 HBart said: Quote: Pre-hire, I'm sure Schoen made it clear that this was a multi-year process. Three most probable number. Since then many high-upside bets have been made. On paper and thus-far, this last draft was unpredictably great in filling immediate needs while building. Also, last year exceeded expectations. Put all together, expectation going in was likely 3 years to realistically contend. Still is, since all know many bets must pay off. But, hope raised significantly for the team to exceed expectations this season. What was your view on the offensive line headed into this season?

I thought we'd be fine once we drafted JMS and had Hasnauur in the mix. Neal had to be better, and I think he is. We'll know soon. I still think we'll be fine, but not sure if it's week 4 or 8+.

Judge the season in segments. Not a good start but a chance to salvage the first month. 2-2 sounds almost too good to be true but nyg should be capable of playing a B+ type game at home here Monday. Don’t think it’s asking too much.

Management strategies.

I think the Eagles are managing their cap to win this season and there will be repercussions starting in 2024 with the release of key players. I know some of you are saying the Eagles always seem to find a way, but this season is among the most extreme instances of loading up on the cap that at least I have witnessed. The Eagles already have $220mm in cap commitments in 2024, including $14mm in void years, which is the 13th highest in the NFL. The Hurts contract doesn’t really hit until 2025. Darius Slay has a dead cap hit of $35mm if released next season and is 32 right now, old for a CB. Lane Johnson, currently 33, has a dead cap hit of $45mm if released next offseason. Kielce is almost 36. Brandon Graham is 35. Hassan Reddick’s cap hit jumps from $7mm this season to $21mm in 2024. There’s a strong “last stand” look to this.

As for Dallas, they already have $256mm committed in 2024. They can extend Dak to get that down. Players like Pollard, Gilmore, Tyron Smith, Biadasz all need new contracts. And their top 3 highest paid players are all the wrong side of 30. Zack Martin is scheduled to cause a cap hit of $28mm (!) in 2024. They can extend him but he is 32 and they already have $13mm in void years attached to his contract, before any restructuring. Meanwhile, Micah Patsons is receiving just over $2mm in actual cash for his services this season, some of the best value in the history of football. I don’t think Dallas is as cap back loaded this season as the Eagles, but let’s just say they are walking a delicate balance.

In contrast, the Giants have $203mm already committed in 2024. Which isn’t great but is manageable and is slightly under the league median.

I know many posters think the cowboys and Eagles will always outrun their cap problems, but I say the combination of backloading their cap hits plus the aging of key players will lower the quality of the teams starting in 2024 and I think Schoen is aware of this and it’s part of his timeline.

In comment 16223889 HomerJones45 said:

Quote:

In comment 16223875 gidiefor said: Quote: ... yes for all we know, this team could be the reverse of last season and go in a run toward the end of the season. Much too early.

I completely agree. It's easy to forget the Giants finished the year 3-6-1 last year. It could have very easily been 3-7 had they not gotten an improbable tie against WSH late in the OT.

It was always going to take until 2024 to clean up the books.

2024 also becomes a big year for Daniel Jones because of the potential out in 2025.

but it seems like the Cowboys have been up against it/time to pay the piper forever, and have been competitive forever. They haven't gotten over the hump, but gotta be competitive to be in position to get over the hump.

We've been talking similar about the Eagles.


More important than the cap is the ability to maintain a core. The Giants have been chasing developing a core, let alone maintain it.