Besides, teams don't stay in base all that much anyways. Wink also utilizes a four man line quite a bit I thought. Guys just need to produce (blocking and attacking).
we need better learners (smart) or better teachers (OL coach) and our OL to be tough (plays with grit/intensity,relentless) and dependable (not miss time because of injuries ... Andrew Thomas, bredeson)
right now we seem to have players who overthink... who lacks killer instinct, and miss time
What is a 4-3 DL? Os that like a 4-3 defense? You really think teams don't have a scout team or don't give the look of the teams they will play? You also know that we mix things up on defense and don't always have 3 down linemen, right? We do give looks of 4 DL.
The issue is not the front. The issue is play makers. We only have 1 viable pass rusher on this team and he is double teamed and dropped into coverage a good amount.
Our O Line will practice against a 4 man front when necessary.
Just out of curiosity, when the Giants ran a 4-3 from 2012-2021 and were getting killed in run defense, how come you didn't post about the 4-3 being a problem?
it doesn't work. It is either coaching or the players are not that good to execute it. Having Thibodeaux drop into coverage is a bad idea, he should be rushing the passer on almost every play!
Is even from 2012-2018 (Bettcher ran a 3-4 too but didn't blitz as often), they didn't have the beef and rush from the end as often as you expected. Remember a couple seasons they were forced to play significant snaps and start guys like Jay Bromley and Markus Kuhn.
And the only good LB was Jon Beason when he was able to stay on the field. Remember having to sign guys like Jonathan Casillas or Keenan Robinson to stop tight ends from destroying their middle of the field.
when the Giants had a 4:3 you knuckleheads were calling for them
(all assuming the OP is accurate in its thesis) the Cowboys and the Eagles don't practice against a 34. So...it should be a tough defense for their OL.
That's how it works, right?
Could it be because of the mentality, attacking vs. read and react?
The Giants primarily use 3-4 as their base which dictates personnel, but use a lot of even-man fronts such as a 2-4-5. The problem is that they get shredded on the edges while in those fronts because Thibs and Ojulari have trouble shedding blocks (if Wink wants them to shed but he wants to use edges as can openers).
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
The Giants primarily use 3-4 as their base which dictates personnel, but use a lot of even-man fronts such as a 2-4-5. The problem is that they get shredded on the edges while in those fronts because Thibs and Ojulari have trouble shedding blocks (if Wink wants them to shed but he wants to use edges as can openers).
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
____________________
What happened to playing 3 technique and 5 technique? I thought they were specifically used to attack gaps.
And when did JPP leave? Didn’t that mark the end of the most recent
The Giants primarily use 3-4 as their base which dictates personnel, but use a lot of even-man fronts such as a 2-4-5. The problem is that they get shredded on the edges while in those fronts because Thibs and Ojulari have trouble shedding blocks (if Wink wants them to shed but he wants to use edges as can openers).
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
____________________
What happened to playing 3 technique and 5 technique? I thought they were specifically used to attack gaps.
Looking at the most recent footage, there's points where the DL are lining up directly across from the OL.
It's not the front, its controling the edge (which so far Thibs and
Ojulari haven't done well). We could have 5 men in the middle of the line, and if we don't make them run into it it just doesnt matter.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
RE: RE: It's not the front, its controling the edge (which so far Thibs and
Ojulari haven't done well). We could have 5 men in the middle of the line, and if we don't make them run into it it just doesnt matter.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
There are a number of factors being wrapped up here, and its not so clear cut. First off if it was only about setting the edge then Ward would be out there 100% of the time, IMO (and I Could be wrong) he looks like the only one who doe it regularly. However Thibs and Ojulari are much more dynamic in the pass defenses (either rushing or dropping back). I believe Wink is trying to get these guys to be better against the run, and force the runs inside. If not and he has to play Ward, then it turns into a situation where the offense knows that when Ward is on the field its a run d, and when Thibs/ Ojulari are on the field its a pass d. One thing Wink hates is being predictable.
So I think it has a lot less to do with if we are in a 4-3,3-4, or 2-5, and more about these guys controling the edge. After all even if we are in a 2 an front "so to speak", we are still bring Thibs or someone post snap to make it a 3 man front anyway. If we have 3 men with their hands down, then we usually can bring 4 or 5. Thats the beauty of it, the offense doesn't know. This is what playing Thibs and Ojulari bring us, they just need to stop the outside run when they are playing run D
You are CORRECT in observing that I am certainly a "layman" on these topics. My only qualification is watching and rooting for the Giants through periods of glory and misery for sixty-five years.
I, however, do enjoy reading your comments and suspect that you have some sort of organized football background. I certainly would appreciate hearing about it.
As far as my "clobbered" remark goes, I have always thrived and been entertained by the back-and-forth banter here at BBI. It keeps my mind active in my "declining years".
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
It has gone awful outside of last year when not playing teams which have good offensive lines. Based on how long the current switch has taken, I'm not sure it would be an easy switch based on switching when Gettleman took over. We have seen those results. Also, if Schoen and Daboll wanted to switch it should have been done last year.
RE: RE: RE: With how well the switch from 4-3 to 3-4 has gone, I dread
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
It has gone awful outside of last year when not playing teams which have good offensive lines. Based on how long the current switch has taken, I'm not sure it would be an easy switch based on switching when Gettleman took over. We have seen those results. Also, if Schoen and Daboll wanted to switch it should have been done last year.
I wouldn't say we're switched now, with all the "multiple" talk and formations. My guess is that with Wink's talk of being positionless (which I dislike because it puts square pegs into round holes), maybe Schoen and Daboll didn't think it mattered?
How much of the time during a game does a team play
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
It has gone awful outside of last year when not playing teams which have good offensive lines. Based on how long the current switch has taken, I'm not sure it would be an easy switch based on switching when Gettleman took over. We have seen those results. Also, if Schoen and Daboll wanted to switch it should have been done last year.
I wouldn't say we're switched now, with all the "multiple" talk and formations. My guess is that with Wink's talk of being positionless (which I dislike because it puts square pegs into round holes), maybe Schoen and Daboll didn't think it mattered?
I would imagine positionless is nonsense they state to the media. It is not like Lawrence is going to line up at corner because they are running a positionless defense. I am sure most of what they are doing falls within standard NFL defenses.
Schoen and Daboll didn't think the defense matters? Didn't we hear how everyone had to sit in the interview on every hire? I'd imagine Schoen and Daboll were hired before Martindale.
As an aside, the transition from 4-3 to 3-4 seemed so stupid that I wonder if Gettleman agreed to it because Mara brought it up during "Gettleman's interview." The defense stunk the year before that but there were other issues going on then. It has mostly stunk since then. That said, nothing is changing this year outside of better play.
RE: RE: RE: It's not the front, its controling the edge (which so far Thibs and
Ojulari haven't done well). We could have 5 men in the middle of the line, and if we don't make them run into it it just doesnt matter.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
There are a number of factors being wrapped up here, and its not so clear cut. First off if it was only about setting the edge then Ward would be out there 100% of the time, IMO (and I Could be wrong) he looks like the only one who doe it regularly. However Thibs and Ojulari are much more dynamic in the pass defenses (either rushing or dropping back). I believe Wink is trying to get these guys to be better against the run, and force the runs inside. If not and he has to play Ward, then it turns into a situation where the offense knows that when Ward is on the field its a run d, and when Thibs/ Ojulari are on the field its a pass d. One thing Wink hates is being predictable.
So I think it has a lot less to do with if we are in a 4-3,3-4, or 2-5, and more about these guys controling the edge. After all even if we are in a 2 an front "so to speak", we are still bring Thibs or someone post snap to make it a 3 man front anyway. If we have 3 men with their hands down, then we usually can bring 4 or 5. Thats the beauty of it, the offense doesn't know. This is what playing Thibs and Ojulari bring us, they just need to stop the outside run when they are playing run D
It doesn't seem like the Giants are fooling anybody though; despite how many men they bring they get picked up or the quarterback gets it out faster. Either Wink has to step up the unpredictability or the primary rushers have to get better at beating their guy one-on-one (if the coordinator wants them to beat their guy instead of opening up opportunities).
As far as who sets the edge, that's why I suggested in an earlier post that both the bigger DE (I used Boogie instead of Ward since Ward looks to be on his way out) and Ojulari would line up next to each other on running downs; the LDE takes the tackle and Ojulari the tight end. It's a temporary fix and could be phased out in the next year.
RE: How much of the time during a game does a team play
Besides, teams don't stay in base all that much anyways. Wink also utilizes a four man line quite a bit I thought. Guys just need to produce (blocking and attacking).
right now we seem to have players who overthink... who lacks killer instinct, and miss time
Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Kiwa, JPP
our 3-4 OLB are invisible or injured
When the Giants run 43, people bitch and want 34.
Our O Line will practice against a 4 man front when necessary.
Our front needs 2 more pass rushers period.
We still had quality players from those years:
Tuck-Joseph,Canty-JPP
Tuck-Jenkins-Hankins-JPP
Ayers-Jenkins-Hankins-JPP
Vernon-Tomlinson-Harrison-JPP
then we switch to 3-4
Hill-Harrison-Tomlinson
Hill-Tomlinson-Lawrence
we let many DT go (Linval Joseph, then Tomlinson, Marvin Austin was a bust)
And the only good LB was Jon Beason when he was able to stay on the field. Remember having to sign guys like Jonathan Casillas or Keenan Robinson to stop tight ends from destroying their middle of the field.
That's how it works, right?
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
What happened to playing 3 technique and 5 technique? I thought they were specifically used to attack gaps.
Quote:
The Giants primarily use 3-4 as their base which dictates personnel, but use a lot of even-man fronts such as a 2-4-5. The problem is that they get shredded on the edges while in those fronts because Thibs and Ojulari have trouble shedding blocks (if Wink wants them to shed but he wants to use edges as can openers).
Wink does some 3 down lineman sets on running plays, but the linemen are being asked to line up directly opposite the centers and tackles, which forces them to hit the lineman first before moving into either gap, ergo a read-and-react scheme instead of attacking a gap. Could that be slowing the Giants down since the linebackers keep misreading the flow?
Though more to the point, why not shift back to a 4-3 front with corresponding personnel, since our 3-4 ends (Leonard Williams and A'Shawn Robinson) are free agents after this year? To be honest however it wouldn't be overnight. Kayvon Thibodeaux isn't in his best fit as a SAM linebacker to cover, why not shift his responsibilities to more of a RDE in a 4-3 where he can use his get-off and speed to attack the pocket, albeit with occasional dropbacks into coverage? Dexter Lawrence has been playing his best as a "shade" nose instead of a 3-4 DE as he'd been doing under Bettcher and Graham. Leonard Williams seems to be doing his best work as a 3-tech, but since he's on an expiring contract, he'll have to be replaced via free agency or the draft.
The main spot that would have to be filled this year would be the LDE who can be a two-way player. Jihad Ward hasn't looked good this year, so why not try out Boogie Basham as the run defender and Azeez Ojulari takes his place on passing downs? Azeez is a good pass-rusher with bend but has to be protected in the run game, so can he be used as a SAM on run downs with Boogie, similar to an early career Von Miller? This position should have a really thorough go-over in the draft and I might have someone in mind.
With the linebackers, SAM has been covered for now, but Bobby Okereke played at MIKE in Indianapolis where he has speed and sideline-to-sideline ability. Could he be the signal caller on the field and cover bigger personnel? I hope so, it's what we paid him to do. The WILL spot is right now a platoon between Micah McFadden and Isaiah Simmons; both can blitz but McFadden's weak in coverage. Wink might roll with that for now.
____________________
What happened to playing 3 technique and 5 technique? I thought they were specifically used to attack gaps.
Looking at the most recent footage, there's points where the DL are lining up directly across from the OL.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
Quote:
Ojulari haven't done well). We could have 5 men in the middle of the line, and if we don't make them run into it it just doesnt matter.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
There are a number of factors being wrapped up here, and its not so clear cut. First off if it was only about setting the edge then Ward would be out there 100% of the time, IMO (and I Could be wrong) he looks like the only one who doe it regularly. However Thibs and Ojulari are much more dynamic in the pass defenses (either rushing or dropping back). I believe Wink is trying to get these guys to be better against the run, and force the runs inside. If not and he has to play Ward, then it turns into a situation where the offense knows that when Ward is on the field its a run d, and when Thibs/ Ojulari are on the field its a pass d. One thing Wink hates is being predictable.
So I think it has a lot less to do with if we are in a 4-3,3-4, or 2-5, and more about these guys controling the edge. After all even if we are in a 2 an front "so to speak", we are still bring Thibs or someone post snap to make it a 3 man front anyway. If we have 3 men with their hands down, then we usually can bring 4 or 5. Thats the beauty of it, the offense doesn't know. This is what playing Thibs and Ojulari bring us, they just need to stop the outside run when they are playing run D
Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Kiwa, JPP
our 3-4 OLB are invisible or injured
And before that team won everyone was obsessed with going back to the 3-4 defense of the 80s.
Over the last few years and get clobbered for it, every time. The reasoning is again - we don't have the players for it. I disagree ....
This year, more than any time in recent memory, we DO have good players (starters and depth), to switch -
4-3 Defensive tackles - Dex, Riley, Davidson, "Nacho"
4-3 DEs - Williams, Robinson, (Ward as needed)
4-3 Middle LBs - Okereke, Coughlin
4-3 Strong Side LBs - McFadden, Ward
$-3 Weak Side LBs - Thibodeaux, Simmons, Basham
Edge (in the tradition of how Osi Umenyiora was used) - Ojulari, Ximinez)
Over the last few years and get clobbered for it, every time. The reasoning is again - we don't have the players for it. I disagree ....
This year, more than any time in recent memory, we DO have good players (starters and depth), to switch -
4-3 Defensive tackles - Dex, Riley, Davidson, "Nacho"
4-3 DEs - Williams, Robinson, (Ward as needed)
4-3 Middle LBs - Okereke, Coughlin
4-3 Strong Side LBs - McFadden, Ward
$-3 Weak Side LBs - Thibodeaux, Simmons, Basham
Edge (in the tradition of how Osi Umenyiora was used) - Ojulari, Ximinez)
Manny you got clobbered for it because it takes an incredibly lamen perspective on defense. You should play Madden.
You are CORRECT in observing that I am certainly a "layman" on these topics. My only qualification is watching and rooting for the Giants through periods of glory and misery for sixty-five years.
I, however, do enjoy reading your comments and suspect that you have some sort of organized football background. I certainly would appreciate hearing about it.
As far as my "clobbered" remark goes, I have always thrived and been entertained by the back-and-forth banter here at BBI. It keeps my mind active in my "declining years".
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
49ers, Philly, Dallas - all 4-3s. Don't fear the light, Giants. Your strength is now at the L.O.S.; the LBs are good enough to pick up the crumbs.
Quote:
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
Quote:
In comment 16223993 St. Jimmy said:
Quote:
a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
It has gone awful outside of last year when not playing teams which have good offensive lines. Based on how long the current switch has taken, I'm not sure it would be an easy switch based on switching when Gettleman took over. We have seen those results. Also, if Schoen and Daboll wanted to switch it should have been done last year.
I wouldn't say we're switched now, with all the "multiple" talk and formations. My guess is that with Wink's talk of being positionless (which I dislike because it puts square pegs into round holes), maybe Schoen and Daboll didn't think it mattered?
Unless you actually know this, I wouldn't be so quick to espouse changing a base alignment as a fix.
Changing alignments when most teams don't use those old alignments but a fraction of the time is just throwing around buzzwords.
Quote:
In comment 16224028 Angel Eyes said:
Quote:
In comment 16223993 St. Jimmy said:
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a change back. We'll be looking at another 5 years to get where they are at today.
Has it gone over well? We still seem to have the same problems no matter what coordinator we have using the 3-4. Besides with all the talk about being multiple, it should be easy to move back, right?
It has gone awful outside of last year when not playing teams which have good offensive lines. Based on how long the current switch has taken, I'm not sure it would be an easy switch based on switching when Gettleman took over. We have seen those results. Also, if Schoen and Daboll wanted to switch it should have been done last year.
I wouldn't say we're switched now, with all the "multiple" talk and formations. My guess is that with Wink's talk of being positionless (which I dislike because it puts square pegs into round holes), maybe Schoen and Daboll didn't think it mattered?
Schoen and Daboll didn't think the defense matters? Didn't we hear how everyone had to sit in the interview on every hire? I'd imagine Schoen and Daboll were hired before Martindale.
As an aside, the transition from 4-3 to 3-4 seemed so stupid that I wonder if Gettleman agreed to it because Mara brought it up during "Gettleman's interview." The defense stunk the year before that but there were other issues going on then. It has mostly stunk since then. That said, nothing is changing this year outside of better play.
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In comment 16223849 PatersonPlank said:
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Ojulari haven't done well). We could have 5 men in the middle of the line, and if we don't make them run into it it just doesnt matter.
Could the front be part of the problem? We've been drafting for 3-4 base personnel for years (since about 2018) but using an even front which the edges aren't built for (Carter, Ximines, Ojulari, plus a bunch of FAs). My suggestion is to shift more towards even-front personnel but leave the door open to replace Ojulari down the road.
There are a number of factors being wrapped up here, and its not so clear cut. First off if it was only about setting the edge then Ward would be out there 100% of the time, IMO (and I Could be wrong) he looks like the only one who doe it regularly. However Thibs and Ojulari are much more dynamic in the pass defenses (either rushing or dropping back). I believe Wink is trying to get these guys to be better against the run, and force the runs inside. If not and he has to play Ward, then it turns into a situation where the offense knows that when Ward is on the field its a run d, and when Thibs/ Ojulari are on the field its a pass d. One thing Wink hates is being predictable.
So I think it has a lot less to do with if we are in a 4-3,3-4, or 2-5, and more about these guys controling the edge. After all even if we are in a 2 an front "so to speak", we are still bring Thibs or someone post snap to make it a 3 man front anyway. If we have 3 men with their hands down, then we usually can bring 4 or 5. Thats the beauty of it, the offense doesn't know. This is what playing Thibs and Ojulari bring us, they just need to stop the outside run when they are playing run D
It doesn't seem like the Giants are fooling anybody though; despite how many men they bring they get picked up or the quarterback gets it out faster. Either Wink has to step up the unpredictability or the primary rushers have to get better at beating their guy one-on-one (if the coordinator wants them to beat their guy instead of opening up opportunities).
As far as who sets the edge, that's why I suggested in an earlier post that both the bigger DE (I used Boogie instead of Ward since Ward looks to be on his way out) and Ojulari would line up next to each other on running downs; the LDE takes the tackle and Ojulari the tight end. It's a temporary fix and could be phased out in the next year.
Unless you actually know this, I wouldn't be so quick to espouse changing a base alignment as a fix.
Changing alignments when most teams don't use those old alignments but a fraction of the time is just throwing around buzzwords.
Base alignment seems to play into what kind of players are used for said front.