New York Giants quarterback Daniel Jones has seemingly been wearing a “kick me” sign since the moment he entered the NFL.
Jones was booed by fans at the Giants’ 2019 draft party when he was announced as the sixth pick. He was called “trash” by Chicago Bears safety Jaquan Brisker the day he signed a four-year, $160 million extension with the Giants. And in the latest installment of Jones bashing, San Francisco 49ers defenders expressed disbelief about the quarterback’s salary, with one anonymous player calling it a “travesty.”
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Like the rest of the team, he can quiet the critics (for a week anyway) on Monday.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
Let's not compare the two. Eli Manning is a 2x Super Bowl winning MVP.
Good point, and right after signing what many (not me) consider an outsize deal is a bad time to have a bad day or two.
And yet, you call other people weird.
It’s true, it happened when he was drafted. Many fans and media were incredulous the Giants drafted him. Fans here on BBI, fans at the Giants draft party. That reaction has stuck for a significant number.
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Got tons of disrespect and still does.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
Let's not compare the two. Eli Manning is a 2x Super Bowl winning MVP.
We can’t compare them? Until Eli won he was treated like Jones is and after the second title it only took a year or two for him to be treated like he was in 2006/7 all over again.
I just think it’s the nature of being in NY. Your failures are magnified and your success is barely celebrated. People enjoy failure.
I just think it’s the nature of being in NY. Your failures are magnified and your success is barely celebrated. People enjoy failure.
UConn -- i don't think people enjoy failure. I think it's more that they have no tolerance for failure when it comes to sports. They "fanatically" crave the exhilaration of the win and peak performance. It's painful to watch sports when players and teams underperform.
Who are some QBs who fans have loved?
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I just think it’s the nature of being in NY. Your failures are magnified and your success is barely celebrated. People enjoy failure.
UConn -- i don't think people enjoy failure. I think it's more that they have no tolerance for failure when it comes to sports. They "fanatically" crave the exhilaration of the win and peak performance. It's painful to watch sports when players and teams underperform.
Yep, especially with all the money etc thrown at these guys. My perspective has also evolved and changed with age and experience. I'm a football fan and also recognize most of the guys tend to wash out of the real world outside of a game they're good at. Perform well or do something else.
No truer woods spoken. Being an nfl QB is hard enough without having coaching changes and system changes. A mainstay of Jones tenure to date. He has yet to have an AVE OL. He’s been ripped for every aspect of the position even though he has two seconds to run thru progressions and pick a guy with almost no separation. He’s not Mahomes!!!!!! Given ave time he’s shown considerable skill.
Simms, too.
Even with Eli, many people still try to say he did little to raise the team and raise his play to carry them over in big moments.
Jones has not been perfect but you don't see players saying how bad Kyler Murray's contract is or voting Justin "5 wins in his career" Fields in the top 90 for the entirety of the NFL. I feel even when/if he takes the next step up, he still won't get the recognition or praise he deserves. It didn't with Eli (w/ 2 Super Bowl MVPs) and it won't happen here.
So the criticism he gets is justified.
Other players taking about his money is uncommon and shitty.
It s been on going for 5 years. People felt he was over-drafted, they will never admit they were wrong and continue to spin his performance to fit their narrative. So many things are stated about Jones with no context
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Got tons of disrespect and still does.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
Let's not compare the two. Eli Manning is a 2x Super Bowl winning MVP.
Let s. not compare that both got hate, even though one was a Super Bowl Champion??
as for Giants fans...who I believe has become very entitled fan base refuses or is just plain ignorant to letting a team grow. Jones is an easy target to blame for that fan.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
great point KD
Herbert's defense blew a 27 point lead, but that's neither here nor there. Rather, just let me know when DJ even has a 27 point lead in a playoff game. I guess that's a good way to make sure that DJ never gets criticized for blowing leads: never have a big lead to begin with.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
Even easier for those with even less intelligence to assume that others are ignoring nuance because their POV doesn't jive with yours.
I also think most players and fans of other teams don't study the mitigating circumstances, and see a player with the fewest passing touchdowns and wins to earn a 150M+ contract and are skeptical.
So the criticism he gets is justified.
I just posted a similar thing on the Goff thread that he used to let it fly under Shurmur. I really feel between all the pressure he has been under being behind such bad OL play and the fact that it was beaten into him to protect the ball, he has been David Carr'ed. I just hope we can get some better and more consistent line play this year, and hopefully he can break out of that. We saw what he can do in the second half of that AZ game. He needs to not go into a shell because he's getting pressure by the likes of SF, Philly, and Dallas. Easier said than done obviously... lol
Most of the QB issues have stemmed from the Giants having a poor front office for over a decade. One of the worst in the league for a very long time.
The NY market is also very tough on both HC's and QB's imv. People like being a armchair QB.
as for Giants fans...who I believe has become very entitled fan base refuses or is just plain ignorant to letting a team grow. Jones is an easy target to blame for that fan.
I didn’t want to go there, but there probably is an element of truth to that idea
Um. what? Eli wasn't a gunslinger??
I think people need to consider the possibility that Shurmur ran a very QB-friendly offense that made Jones look better than he actually is.
I mean, Case Keenum threw for 3500 yards and 22 TDs in 14 games with Shurmur as his OC.
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I just posted a similar thing on the Goff thread that he used to let it fly under Shurmur.
I think people need to consider the possibility that Shurmur ran a very QB-friendly offense that made Jones look better than he actually is.
I mean, Case Keenum threw for 3500 yards and 22 TDs in 14 games with Shurmur as his OC.
I'm not saying better or worse though. I'm only speaking to confidence in pulling the trigger on throws.
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
Even easier for those with even less intelligence to assume that others are ignoring nuance because their POV doesn't jive with yours.
My POV is simply that Jones should be given some weapons and a decent OL and that he showed enough to get a second contract. Not very controversial. Sorry I'm not as smart as those calling for Tyrod Taylor, or drafting a new QB every year or two and seeing if you can magically find one who becomes Mahomes with an OL that is near the worst in the league.
The anti-Jonesers must really despise the Schoen/Daboll regime. One thing to miss on a 1st round QB. About a 50/50 chance there. Another thing to sign him to a second contract for $40 million a year. But, of course, I'm sure you're a lot smarter than them as well.
It's also fair to say the lack of talent around him and rotating carousel of mediocre coaching he's had during his career have worked against him.
I'm holding out hope this is the right staff and he and the talent around him will get better. But it's up to him to change the narrative
If Jones were an opposing QB, we'd definitely be saying the league now has tape.
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Because he’s not a flashy QB, throwing 60 yard bombs down the field. Look at Justin Herbert, the guy blew a 27 point lead in the playoffs, but because he’s flashy it was everyone else’s fault but his.
Herbert's defense blew a 27 point lead, but that's neither here nor there. Rather, just let me know when DJ even has a 27 point lead in a playoff game. I guess that's a good way to make sure that DJ never gets criticized for blowing leads: never have a big lead to begin with.
Thanks for proving my point. I guess leading 3 drives that went under 3 minutes each, in the 2nd half, had nothing to do with that Loss. OK
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
Even easier for those with even less intelligence to assume that others are ignoring nuance because their POV doesn't jive with yours.
man. you are so easily triggered around here...
...its like shooting fish in a barrel.
What’s the deal with the Viking playoff game, you know the playoff game that Jones actually won. Do we ignore that one or can we reference it?
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
There are times when Jones looks very good, the latest being the second half against the Cardinals. I recall a game against New Orleans. After those games, you can say "ok, we got the guy." Hey, I've said it.
But then there are other games where he looks awful, the latest being 10 of the last 12 quarters. The playoff disaster in Philly that no one wants to talk about. His adoring fans point to the o-line, the receivers, the scheme, the this, the that . . . Unfortunately, he has been the one constant to this offense and bears some responsibility for these performances.
Then there are the majority of games where he is pretty mediocre, where you could have practically anyone else behind center and get the same production.
He's a wildcard; you never know which Jones is going to show up. It would not surprise to see him play great on Sunday. It won't surprise if he looks terrible on Sunday.
He is who he is as Sy said. Paint the canvas as you will.
the 2nd sb kind of shut people up, and then he put up some bigger statistical seasons, but when the team went backwards they were right back to being a punchline.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
Admittedly, most people were feeling good going into year 2 of Daboll/Kafka. Weren’t you as well? However, after seeing the production thus far opinions can change, can’t they? Most fans want to see Hyatt over the corpse of Campbell, but that’s not our decision to make. Barkley, Thomas and Waller have been banged up, out of our control. Obviously, Jones needs to play better. But it’s a collective need to play better as well, team-wide.
Ultimately, whomever was running the offense in the second half in Arizona needs to do that for the rest of the year. Because the other 10 quarters have not worked. I don’t care if it was Kafka, Daboll, Tierney, AI, whatever. They need to get back there.
I've posted this same sentiment countless times. If you read BBI for a week, you can collect a number of observations that every QB in the league except Mahomes sucks.
Reference it all you want, but at least acknowledge that the Vikings' pass defense was horrendous last year.
That being said, I am not sure he gets as much hate in the NY media as some would lead you to believe. Toward the end of last season, and especially post round 1, I heard a few hosts on WFAN singing his praises and suggesting he was on the cusp of being a top 5-8 qb in this league.
He is who he is as Sy said. Paint the canvas as you will.
Homer, has he though? We have been shit since 2012 except for one outlier season in 2016... And that season we didn't score above what 20 pts per game? That offense was pretty terrible. Our whole offense was OBJ. I would say the biggest constant we have had since 2012 is that our offensive line play has been among the bottom 5 in the league every single year. It's absolutely maddening to me. I do agree with Sy's statement for sure, he is what he is... and my canvas for him would include a better OL if we want him to earn his contract consistently, game to game.
One side of me hears what you’re saying. The other side of me sees terrible Jones performances in the context of a nano-second pocket that just goes poof at the snap.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
How dare Giants fans want Jones having some continuity in coaching.
Marino never won a championship and is considered one of the greatest QBs to ever play. The common variable between this year and last is a terrible OL. Results are skewed since they played perhaps the 2 best DLs in 2 out of the first three games.
And yes, Jones is owed a competent OL, good coaching, and talent at skill positions. Is it that controversial to put players in positions to try to succeed? Oy do you just throw shit out there for Jones, say you are paid $40 million, make chicken salad out of chicken shit? As someone alluded to, that’s the David Carr theory of team building. Didn’t work then. Won’t work now.
It seems some of you just want the old Cleveland Browns theory of team building. Keep drafting QB after QB, put them in shot positions, and scratch your head wondering why it doesn’t work. You can keep drafting the Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, and Baker Mayfields. Or you can take your QB who led the team to the playoffs (and a playoff victory)with a poor OL and the best healthy receiver a waiver wire pickup, and build a team around him and put him in a position to succeed. The latter seems the more prudent move, but apparently it’s controversial to expect a GM to help build a team around a QB
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
Admittedly, most people were feeling good going into year 2 of Daboll/Kafka. Weren’t you as well? However, after seeing the production thus far opinions can change, can’t they? Most fans want to see Hyatt over the corpse of Campbell, but that’s not our decision to make. Barkley, Thomas and Waller have been banged up, out of our control. Obviously, Jones needs to play better. But it’s a collective need to play better as well, team-wide.
I say this without a hint of sarcasm: there's a chance Jones is a good quarterback and has faced galactically bad luck in his career.
I also think there an chance he is a very average quarterback and has faced just normal bad luck.
But what I find amusing is it's not even cold out yet and the posts are piling up about how raw of a deal Jones has.
How dare Giants fans want Jones having some continuity in coaching.
Marino never won a championship and is considered one of the greatest QBs to ever play. The common variable between this year and last is a terrible OL. Results are skewed since they played perhaps the 2 best DLs in 2 out of the first three games.
And yes, Jones is owed a competent OL, good coaching, and talent at skill positions. Is it that controversial to put players in positions to try to succeed? Oy do you just throw shit out there for Jones, say you are paid $40 million, make chicken salad out of chicken shit? As someone alluded to, that’s the David Carr theory of team building. Didn’t work then. Won’t work now.
It seems some of you just want the old Cleveland Browns theory of team building. Keep drafting QB after QB, put them in shot positions, and scratch your head wondering why it doesn’t work. You can keep drafting the Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, and Baker Mayfields. Or you can take your QB who led the team to the playoffs (and a playoff victory)with a poor OL and the best healthy receiver a waiver wire pickup, and build a team around him and put him in a position to succeed. The latter seems the more prudent move, but apparently it’s controversial to expect a GM to help build a team around a QB
Do you think the Giants have a good offensive system/coaching and good skill players this year?
That being said, I am not sure he gets as much hate in the NY media as some would lead you to believe. Toward the end of last season, and especially post round 1, I heard a few hosts on WFAN singing his praises and suggesting he was on the cusp of being a top 5-8 qb in this league.
Yep. And let’s not forget the over the top admiration he was getting in the pre season after ONE drive that ended up a TD. In a pre season game. People started talking like they would suddenly be able to compete with Dallas and Philly.
The NFL is a week by week league. Jones played like trash last week. If he lights up Seattle this week all the predictions of greatness will return in the media. It’s just how it works and I’m surprised fans that are absolutely bi polar all season long are really surprised by this
Also, it might be a surprise in NY, but throughout the country there are many, many people that just hate anything NY.
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It feels like it was just two months ago the Giants were lucky Kafka didn't leave for a head coaching gig and the Giants skill position players were approaching dangerous levels.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
Admittedly, most people were feeling good going into year 2 of Daboll/Kafka. Weren’t you as well? However, after seeing the production thus far opinions can change, can’t they? Most fans want to see Hyatt over the corpse of Campbell, but that’s not our decision to make. Barkley, Thomas and Waller have been banged up, out of our control. Obviously, Jones needs to play better. But it’s a collective need to play better as well, team-wide.
I say this without a hint of sarcasm: there's a chance Jones is a good quarterback and has faced galactically bad luck in his career.
I also think there an chance he is a very average quarterback and has faced just normal bad luck.
But what I find amusing is it's not even cold out yet and the posts are piling up about how raw of a deal Jones has.
I agree with your first two points. I want to root for him but find it difficult at times based on his performances.
What I find amusing - and annoying - is that the detractors and supporters beat the same drum every week.
And FYI, while not officially cold, it did get pretty chilly at night here in NJ a few times over the past week.
Coaching has been lacking and I think they made some mistakes this offseason addressing the team.
At some point management needs to fix the OL no? It’s been a problem for over a decade. Until they fix the OL, the Giants will continue getting crushed by DLs like the Eagles, Cowboys, and Niners. Getting a new QB will not change that.
Jones led the Giants to the playoffs and a playoff victory last year with one of the worst receiving corps I’ve seen and a bad OL. That was no small feat
There is an inherent bias in the assumption that Jones is the victim and the OL is the perpetrator, but like all things in football, that isn't necessarily the case, IMO.
We have watched the Giants' OL appear to struggle mightily through the course of five different head coaches, six different playcallers, and two different QBs. How many different OL coaches? Five? Six? Three different GMs. Various scouting changes. Implementation of different scouting methods. Same results.
It's beyond my pay grade to answer this question, but I get paid just the right amount to ask it: does anyone ever consider the possibility that part of the reason why the OL looks especially bad in pass protection is a lack of fear by opposing defenses that the offense will really make them pay? Marino was mentioned above (and that's fucking laughable that anyone is trying to draw a Marino comparison to DJ), and to my recollection, Marino was outstanding at attacking the defense right where they left a spot unguarded. Does anyone feel like DJ does that with any regularity?
End-of-career Eli was just a statue in the pocket (not that he was ever considered especially mobile to begin with), so it was a reasonable conclusion that he lacked the escapability to cover up the flaws of the OL. Since then, we've seen the Giants spend big money in free agency on the OL, use high value draft picks on the OL, use mid round picks on the OL, use late round picks on the OL, trade for OL help, sign OL depth off the street, etc. There has not been a lack of resources thrown at this position group.
It strikes me as incredibly unlucky that almost every one of those OL players has individually underperformed (except Thomas, and, so far, Schmitz) or declined. Is there any possibility that the QB contributes to the OL's problems?
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
It just feels like for all the different changes/additions the Giants have made over the years to address the OL, some of these would have worked out simply by accident. But that elusive OL improvement continues to remain just outside the grasp of the Giants' organization.
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There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
How dare Giants fans want Jones having some continuity in coaching.
Marino never won a championship and is considered one of the greatest QBs to ever play. The common variable between this year and last is a terrible OL. Results are skewed since they played perhaps the 2 best DLs in 2 out of the first three games.
And yes, Jones is owed a competent OL, good coaching, and talent at skill positions. Is it that controversial to put players in positions to try to succeed? Oy do you just throw shit out there for Jones, say you are paid $40 million, make chicken salad out of chicken shit? As someone alluded to, that’s the David Carr theory of team building. Didn’t work then. Won’t work now.
It seems some of you just want the old Cleveland Browns theory of team building. Keep drafting QB after QB, put them in shot positions, and scratch your head wondering why it doesn’t work. You can keep drafting the Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, and Baker Mayfields. Or you can take your QB who led the team to the playoffs (and a playoff victory)with a poor OL and the best healthy receiver a waiver wire pickup, and build a team around him and put him in a position to succeed. The latter seems the more prudent move, but apparently it’s controversial to expect a GM to help build a team around a QB
Do you think the Giants have a good offensive system/coaching and good skill players this year?
The offensive game plan the first game was terrible after the opening drive. The skill players are improved, but the WRs are probably still a bottom 5 group in the league.
The major issue this year is the Giants OL (still) and the teams they've played. I said after week 1, it was clear the Giants will not be able to compete will the Eagles, Cowboys, and Niners until they get the OL fixed. They had real tough matchups with 2 games against those teams in the first 3 games. If the OL was decent with these skill guys, Jones would be fine.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Now? Evaluating OL play takes nuance. Evaluating separation takes nuance. Easier for those who lack basic intelligence just blame the QB for everything.
He evaluates everything.
Does he lack nuisance?
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
There is an inherent bias in the assumption that Jones is the victim and the OL is the perpetrator, but like all things in football, that isn't necessarily the case, IMO.
We have watched the Giants' OL appear to struggle mightily through the course of five different head coaches, six different playcallers, and two different QBs. How many different OL coaches? Five? Six? Three different GMs. Various scouting changes. Implementation of different scouting methods. Same results.
It's beyond my pay grade to answer this question, but I get paid just the right amount to ask it: does anyone ever consider the possibility that part of the reason why the OL looks especially bad in pass protection is a lack of fear by opposing defenses that the offense will really make them pay? Marino was mentioned above (and that's fucking laughable that anyone is trying to draw a Marino comparison to DJ), and to my recollection, Marino was outstanding at attacking the defense right where they left a spot unguarded. Does anyone feel like DJ does that with any regularity?
End-of-career Eli was just a statue in the pocket (not that he was ever considered especially mobile to begin with), so it was a reasonable conclusion that he lacked the escapability to cover up the flaws of the OL. Since then, we've seen the Giants spend big money in free agency on the OL, use high value draft picks on the OL, use mid round picks on the OL, use late round picks on the OL, trade for OL help, sign OL depth off the street, etc. There has not been a lack of resources thrown at this position group.
It strikes me as incredibly unlucky that almost every one of those OL players has individually underperformed (except Thomas, and, so far, Schmitz) or declined. Is there any possibility that the QB contributes to the OL's problems?
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
It just feels like for all the different changes/additions the Giants have made over the years to address the OL, some of these would have worked out simply by accident. But that elusive OL improvement continues to remain just outside the grasp of the Giants' organization.
I just have to shrug my shoulders at this kind of garbage. I don't know how anyone can watch tape of say Evan Neal this year and be like, "Yeah, that's Jones' fault." Just utterly shocking to me that people can come away with that kind of take
Fans make it seem like the Giants traded tons of resources for a bad player. Nope. Try again. They didn't even trade up and he's a solid starting QB in the NFL on his worst day.
It's bullshit inconsistent hot takes from jerkoffs with an axe to grind.
To be a franchise QB in the league, you have to process quickly. Jones has not show he can do it yet. Is it something that can be learned with experience, I’m not sure. But I do know that if the team around Jones is built properly you can win with him.
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but the OL isn't owed a better something? Honestly, why is Jones owed anything but never seems to owe anyone anything himself?
There is an inherent bias in the assumption that Jones is the victim and the OL is the perpetrator, but like all things in football, that isn't necessarily the case, IMO.
We have watched the Giants' OL appear to struggle mightily through the course of five different head coaches, six different playcallers, and two different QBs. How many different OL coaches? Five? Six? Three different GMs. Various scouting changes. Implementation of different scouting methods. Same results.
It's beyond my pay grade to answer this question, but I get paid just the right amount to ask it: does anyone ever consider the possibility that part of the reason why the OL looks especially bad in pass protection is a lack of fear by opposing defenses that the offense will really make them pay? Marino was mentioned above (and that's fucking laughable that anyone is trying to draw a Marino comparison to DJ), and to my recollection, Marino was outstanding at attacking the defense right where they left a spot unguarded. Does anyone feel like DJ does that with any regularity?
End-of-career Eli was just a statue in the pocket (not that he was ever considered especially mobile to begin with), so it was a reasonable conclusion that he lacked the escapability to cover up the flaws of the OL. Since then, we've seen the Giants spend big money in free agency on the OL, use high value draft picks on the OL, use mid round picks on the OL, use late round picks on the OL, trade for OL help, sign OL depth off the street, etc. There has not been a lack of resources thrown at this position group.
It strikes me as incredibly unlucky that almost every one of those OL players has individually underperformed (except Thomas, and, so far, Schmitz) or declined. Is there any possibility that the QB contributes to the OL's problems?
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
It just feels like for all the different changes/additions the Giants have made over the years to address the OL, some of these would have worked out simply by accident. But that elusive OL improvement continues to remain just outside the grasp of the Giants' organization.
I just have to shrug my shoulders at this kind of garbage. I don't know how anyone can watch tape of say Evan Neal this year and be like, "Yeah, that's Jones' fault." Just utterly shocking to me that people can come away with that kind of take
He is garbage?
A QB who can make the playoffs and win in the playoffs...like he did last year, until he faced a team his line couldn't block
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
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Got tons of disrespect and still does.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
Let's not compare the two. Eli Manning is a 2x Super Bowl winning MVP.
No one is comparing anyone. We're comparing how dumb the Eli takes were.
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In comment 16224466 Gatorade Dunk said:
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but the OL isn't owed a better something? Honestly, why is Jones owed anything but never seems to owe anyone anything himself?
There is an inherent bias in the assumption that Jones is the victim and the OL is the perpetrator, but like all things in football, that isn't necessarily the case, IMO.
We have watched the Giants' OL appear to struggle mightily through the course of five different head coaches, six different playcallers, and two different QBs. How many different OL coaches? Five? Six? Three different GMs. Various scouting changes. Implementation of different scouting methods. Same results.
It's beyond my pay grade to answer this question, but I get paid just the right amount to ask it: does anyone ever consider the possibility that part of the reason why the OL looks especially bad in pass protection is a lack of fear by opposing defenses that the offense will really make them pay? Marino was mentioned above (and that's fucking laughable that anyone is trying to draw a Marino comparison to DJ), and to my recollection, Marino was outstanding at attacking the defense right where they left a spot unguarded. Does anyone feel like DJ does that with any regularity?
End-of-career Eli was just a statue in the pocket (not that he was ever considered especially mobile to begin with), so it was a reasonable conclusion that he lacked the escapability to cover up the flaws of the OL. Since then, we've seen the Giants spend big money in free agency on the OL, use high value draft picks on the OL, use mid round picks on the OL, use late round picks on the OL, trade for OL help, sign OL depth off the street, etc. There has not been a lack of resources thrown at this position group.
It strikes me as incredibly unlucky that almost every one of those OL players has individually underperformed (except Thomas, and, so far, Schmitz) or declined. Is there any possibility that the QB contributes to the OL's problems?
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
It just feels like for all the different changes/additions the Giants have made over the years to address the OL, some of these would have worked out simply by accident. But that elusive OL improvement continues to remain just outside the grasp of the Giants' organization.
I just have to shrug my shoulders at this kind of garbage. I don't know how anyone can watch tape of say Evan Neal this year and be like, "Yeah, that's Jones' fault." Just utterly shocking to me that people can come away with that kind of take
Again Sy has blamed Jones for Tons of things this year.
He is garbage?
Where has Sy blamed Jones for the OL? He hasn't. Like most QBs when the line isn't blocking, Jones hasn't looked good vs. the Cowboys and Niners. Most QBs don't.
And yes, if Sy is blaming Jones for over a decade of pretty bad OL play, then yes, that is a garbage take. But I know he didn't
On one hand the Giants pass catchers are bottom five and the game plans suck, but if the line was better everything would be fine?
Does that really add up?
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"fine."
A QB who can make the playoffs and win in the playoffs...like he did last year, until he faced a team his line couldn't block
He beat the only other NFC playoff team that was even more overrated in terms of W/L record vs. point differential.
Jim Harbaugh would be a "fine" QB by your definition. Is that really what you'd consider good enough?
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
It’s highly possible that if Jones improves in those areas the offensive line would in turn look a better. How much better who knows. Jones isn’t the reason the oline is toward the bottom of the league, but he also doesn’t help them either.
Occam’s razor suggests that there’s been too many players cycled into the oline for the last decade for it just to be them being bad. The Giants would have to be the unluckiest or worst run team in the league.
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
I think many times we leave out the other side of the argument whether intentional or not. There is much miscommunication with a lot of discussions on this forum because I think the way we frame our arguments or posts are not read carefully enough. Jonescritics sometimes will get labeled as thinking or saying “Jones is the only problem” (I don't recall any posters actually saying this). The same thing happens with those that express their reasons why Jones has not lived up to expectations. They often get labeled as “excuse makers” with their thoughts being represented as “nothing is Jones’ fault”.
I honestly think one solution is to ask more questions about a poster’s opinions rather than assuming.
I do too much assuming and I also don’t construct my opinions very clearly sometimes.
On one hand the Giants pass catchers are bottom five and the game plans suck, but if the line was better everything would be fine?
Does that really add up?
What’s your take on the state of the offense? What is your solution to improve it?
On one hand the Giants pass catchers are bottom five and the game plans suck, but if the line was better everything would be fine?
Does that really add up?
It doesn't add up, because you are completely twisting what I said.
Jones helped take the Giants to the playoffs last year and they won a playoff game. Last year they had a top 5 worst OL and an even worse receiving group. Outside of Thomas, the Giants may have had the worst OL in the league. This year, the receiving group is improved.
Daboll and staff did an excellent job coaching last year. The Cowboys game, the first drive was excellent until the false start and FG block. The Giants seemed to abandon what was working when they got down. I did not say the Giants "gameplans" sucked. I said I felt the Cowboys game was poorly coached. Would it have made a difference between winning and losing? No. But it would have been more like the 49ers game. Clearly out-manned, but not a complete debacle.
And, yes, if the OL was better, the offense and Jones would look a lot better. As one can clearly see in games where the OL isn't completely out-manned.
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There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
How dare Giants fans want Jones having some continuity in coaching.
Marino never won a championship and is considered one of the greatest QBs to ever play. The common variable between this year and last is a terrible OL. Results are skewed since they played perhaps the 2 best DLs in 2 out of the first three games.
And yes, Jones is owed a competent OL, good coaching, and talent at skill positions. Is it that controversial to put players in positions to try to succeed? Oy do you just throw shit out there for Jones, say you are paid $40 million, make chicken salad out of chicken shit? As someone alluded to, that’s the David Carr theory of team building. Didn’t work then. Won’t work now.
It seems some of you just want the old Cleveland Browns theory of team building. Keep drafting QB after QB, put them in shot positions, and scratch your head wondering why it doesn’t work. You can keep drafting the Tim Couch, Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden, and Baker Mayfields. Or you can take your QB who led the team to the playoffs (and a playoff victory)with a poor OL and the best healthy receiver a waiver wire pickup, and build a team around him and put him in a position to succeed. The latter seems the more prudent move, but apparently it’s controversial to expect a GM to help build a team around a QB
Do you think the Giants have a good offensive system/coaching and good skill players this year?
I think the coaching has been rough this year, and I blame lack of playing time in preseason for the starters as a big part of that. I believe we have decent skill players, although I thought Campbell would be better. He looks like a non-factor. My biggest problem, even last year with what we trotted out at the skill postions (minus Barkley) was that our OL play has to be better for any QB to have consistent success, and more importantly compete within our division. I want this regardless of who we have behind center.
There is an inherent bias in the assumption that Jones is the victim and the OL is the perpetrator, but like all things in football, that isn't necessarily the case, IMO.
We have watched the Giants' OL appear to struggle mightily through the course of five different head coaches, six different playcallers, and two different QBs. How many different OL coaches? Five? Six? Three different GMs. Various scouting changes. Implementation of different scouting methods. Same results.
It's beyond my pay grade to answer this question, but I get paid just the right amount to ask it: does anyone ever consider the possibility that part of the reason why the OL looks especially bad in pass protection is a lack of fear by opposing defenses that the offense will really make them pay? Marino was mentioned above (and that's fucking laughable that anyone is trying to draw a Marino comparison to DJ), and to my recollection, Marino was outstanding at attacking the defense right where they left a spot unguarded. Does anyone feel like DJ does that with any regularity?
End-of-career Eli was just a statue in the pocket (not that he was ever considered especially mobile to begin with), so it was a reasonable conclusion that he lacked the escapability to cover up the flaws of the OL. Since then, we've seen the Giants spend big money in free agency on the OL, use high value draft picks on the OL, use mid round picks on the OL, use late round picks on the OL, trade for OL help, sign OL depth off the street, etc. There has not been a lack of resources thrown at this position group.
It strikes me as incredibly unlucky that almost every one of those OL players has individually underperformed (except Thomas, and, so far, Schmitz) or declined. Is there any possibility that the QB contributes to the OL's problems?
I want to be clear that I'm not asking this question as a suggestion that DJ definitively is the issue. I'm just asking if anyone has ever even considered it. Simply by process of elimination and replacement, there seems to be either a systemic issue that somehow outlasts repeated (and widespread) staffing/personnel changes, or that there is some other factor that isn't changing. And there's only a few factors that haven't changed, so I'm only looking for those.
It just feels like for all the different changes/additions the Giants have made over the years to address the OL, some of these would have worked out simply by accident. But that elusive OL improvement continues to remain just outside the grasp of the Giants' organization.
Well said GD and spot on. Great post.
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It feels like it was just two months ago the Giants were lucky Kafka didn't leave for a head coaching gig and the Giants skill position players were approaching dangerous levels.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
Admittedly, most people were feeling good going into year 2 of Daboll/Kafka. Weren’t you as well? However, after seeing the production thus far opinions can change, can’t they? Most fans want to see Hyatt over the corpse of Campbell, but that’s not our decision to make. Barkley, Thomas and Waller have been banged up, out of our control. Obviously, Jones needs to play better. But it’s a collective need to play better as well, team-wide.
I say this without a hint of sarcasm: there's a chance Jones is a good quarterback and has faced galactically bad luck in his career.
I also think there an chance he is a very average quarterback and has faced just normal bad luck.
But what I find amusing is it's not even cold out yet and the posts are piling up about how raw of a deal Jones has.
I agree that he might still only be an average QB.
He might end up a top 10 QB.
I am really going to wait for the entire season to play out.
This next game against Seattle, We need to see that hero ball from him. The guy in the second half of Arizona and the guy that played in Minnesota.
That's the problem.
We seen seen terrible Jones and awesome Jones.
Who is he.
I am going need the whole year to tell you.
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I just think it’s the nature of being in NY. Your failures are magnified and your success is barely celebrated. People enjoy failure.
UConn -- i don't think people enjoy failure. I think it's more that they have no tolerance for failure when it comes to sports. They "fanatically" crave the exhilaration of the win and peak performance. It's painful to watch sports when players and teams underperform.
I disagree wholeheartedly. This town (media especially) LOVES misery. Doom and gloom is a business and it always will be.
On one hand the Giants pass catchers are bottom five and the game plans suck, but if the line was better everything would be fine?
Does that really add up?
What’s your take on the state of the offense? What is your solution to improve it?
In the immediate term I'd move Neal to guard and play Ezeudu at right tackle. I'd work to establish the read/option and RPO as much as possible with the current running back group and hope Barkley returns for Miami. If the run game develops some momentum, sprinkle in more combo and stack routes to spring pass catchers open like last year.
I'd view 2023 like 2022 -- a year where it's not implausible to scrape together 9 wins and get in the tournament.
Next year I'd prioritize interior offensive linemen with a premium pick and/or UFA. I'd also draft a QB on day two and start really contemplating whether Jones should be a Giant in 2025.
It’s highly possible that if Jones improves in those areas the offensive line would in turn look a better. How much better who knows. Jones isn’t the reason the oline is toward the bottom of the league, but he also doesn’t help them either.
Occam’s razor suggests that there’s been too many players cycled into the oline for the last decade for it just to be them being bad. The Giants would have to be the unluckiest or worst run team in the league.
how much more evidence do we need to know that they have obviously been one of the worst run teams in the league for the last decade?
how many of:
pat flaherty,
mike solari,
hal hunter,
marc columbo,
dave deguglielmo,
rob sale
are still in the NFL?
lucky #7 bobby johnson was an OL coach for just 3 seasons before coming to nyg.
and id say 7 different OL coaches under 5 different head coaches in a span of 9 seasons is a pretty good indicator of being one of the worst run teams in the league over that period of time. on top of the W/L record which is among the worst.
jeff stoutland has been with the eagles since 2013, maybe he was lucky to draft lane johnson his first year and inherit jason kelce but while he's been there they've also developed literal tons of day 2/3 picks into quality OL. mailata, vatai, seumalo, brooks, jurgens, dickerson, probably others im forgetting too. that is what well run looks like. the nyg are on the exact opposite end of that spectrum other than andrew thomas.
Again, Occam’s razor.
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The state of affairs is a roller coaster.
On one hand the Giants pass catchers are bottom five and the game plans suck, but if the line was better everything would be fine?
Does that really add up?
What’s your take on the state of the offense? What is your solution to improve it?
In the immediate term I'd move Neal to guard and play Ezeudu at right tackle. I'd work to establish the read/option and RPO as much as possible with the current running back group and hope Barkley returns for Miami. If the run game develops some momentum, sprinkle in more combo and stack routes to spring pass catchers open like last year.
I'd view 2023 like 2022 -- a year where it's not implausible to scrape together 9 wins and get in the tournament.
Next year I'd prioritize interior offensive linemen with a premium pick and/or UFA. I'd also draft a QB on day two and start really contemplating whether Jones should be a Giant in 2025.
Thanks for the response. I like the offensive scheme you suggest as I feel that is Jones’ bread and butter. It would also serve to open up deep hits to Hyatt as well, assuming he sees the field more frequently.
And you agree with many here that the OL and game planning both need to improve.
Name a single person who said that. Gettleman hit on Thomas for one. He's an All-Pro level player, though slowed by injuries thus far this year.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
Again, Occam’s razor.
every asst coach ever hired comes in with a "good reputation", except maybe nathaniel hackett. that's a meaningless qualifier.
how many of them came in highly paid, in demand, or with any sort of track record of sustained success like a bill callahan or mike munchak or dante scarnechia? clearly that's a 0, and clearly the nyg havent been able to identify quality coaches with non-obvious resumes like the eagles did with stoutland.
inheriting an established elite unit with tyron smith and zack martin is a much different thing than rebuilding an OL from scratch, which is what this organization has tried to do and failed at 4 or 5 different times since 2010-11.
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
When you run the ball 11 times for 29 yards against SF it is going to be a tough day with how the Giants are built right now. Just like Dallas and Dak had a rough day against SF the last two playoff seasons.
You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
6 McCants
2013
1 Pugh
7 Herman
2014
2 Richburg
2015
1 Flowers
7 Hart
2016
The OL is so damn good, don't need anyone else
2017
7 Bisnowaty - a 7th rounder is all the OL investment the Giants need in two years apparently
2018
2 Hernandez
2019
7th rounder Asafo only, despite 10 picks
2020
1 Thomas
3 Peart
2021
no OL, everything is great apparently
That's some poor shit on the whole. For the most part, I do like the investment Schoen has made the last two years, but that's an awful lot of young guys to implement at once. Basically 3 rookies and Neal, as the NC guys were injured much of the year
I suspect it is generally the same people, but who knows.
The Arm chair GMs don't help the situation.
"When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know." -Tuna
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
You watched the footage of Glowinski against the Cowboys.... right?
Our OL has been shit since 2011 ended. We wasted Eli's prime years because of it.
Flaherty was the offensive line coach during the Giants best offensive line years and continued to work in the league after he left in 2015. It’s doubtful he just became a bum after 2012.
My point is simply the context of Jones or Kerry Collins getting criticism is a lot different than Simms or Eli.
251 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.36 TD/G (Pass and rush)
1.07 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player Y through 4 years:
233 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.44 TD/G (Pass and rush)
0.94 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player X is Jones, Player Y is Mitch Trubisky.
I am not saying that Jones has the same talent level as Trubisky, but over his first 4 years, he produced very similarly to him. We can all debate why and talk with more nuance, but that is headline over the first 4 years. He can silence some of this criticism by just producing more than Mitch Trubisky did with the Bears
251 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.36 TD/G (Pass and rush)
1.07 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player Y through 4 years:
233 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.44 TD/G (Pass and rush)
0.94 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player X is Jones, Player Y is Mitch Trubisky.
I am not saying that Jones has the same talent level as Trubisky, but over his first 4 years, he produced very similarly to him. We can all debate why and talk with more nuance, but that is headline over the first 4 years. He can silence some of this criticism by just producing more than Mitch Trubisky did with the Bears
Oof, got Mitch's Playoff stats wrong. Should be 521 Yards 2 TD, 0 Int
Flaherty was the offensive line coach during the Giants best offensive line years and continued to work in the league after he left in 2015. It’s doubtful he just became a bum after 2012.
dallas couldnt have "gotten anyone" to coach their OL any more than the giants could hire jeff stoutland away from the eagles or callahan from the browns until their contracts expire. the handful of good coaches are almost always under contract somewhere else with the rest of the league recycling guys like solari and flaherty with lengthy resumes or taking chances on younger guys like columbo. how meaningful was dallas' choice on columbo? how meaningful is it that buffalo allowed bobby johnson to come here but blocked others?
solari and flaherty at least had/have legitimate NFL resumes but neither has been the full time ol coach here in half a decade. the last 3 before bobby johnson havent coached another in the NFL since. columbo and hunter i believe are both out of coaching.
from a decade of complete ineptitude you are cherry picking insignificant data points like maybe there was a good 5 minute stretch during the first act of Our American Cousin.
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Are the other moves just a case of bad GMing? Glowinski were solid players before they came here but is now unplayable.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
Again you guys are missing the point. Daniel Jones’ weaknesses make the offense easier to defend which also makes it tougher for a non elite offensive line to be successful. Jones isn’t the reason Glowinski got benched, or the sole reason the oline is at the bottom of the league but he also doesn’t do enough to make their lives easier as well. The QB absolutely has an influence on offensive line play and how the line succeeds.
Take Stroud for example. They’re missing three starters, have allowed as much pressure as the Giants but their PFF grades are higher than the Giants. Is it because their players are that much better? Not really. Stroud handles the pressure better. If Jones’ legs are neutralized he doesn’t have the processing speed to handle the pressure and goes into a shell that more often than not leads to a bad decision. That makes it a lot tougher on a non elite offensive line and leaves a razor thin margin in an era where defensive lineman are more freakish than ever.
Again, Jones isn’t why the offensive line sucks. They need to improve but Jones also needs to improve in the areas he’s deficient in. There’s very few very good to elite offensive lines in the league and most of them are an injury away from being average or worse. It’s an epidemic in the league and has been for a number of years, and it likely isn’t getting better any time soon. The way to navigate around it is with scheme and top level QB play.
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In comment 16224493 Gatorade Dunk said:
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
Last season, people were very worried that Jones stats were not good enough and the talked in extreme absolutes on Jones. All season, I kept suggesting that Jones could win a playoff game.
It happened.
We could win 2 playoff games this year or we could be settle in the basement.
I have hunch this team is going to be better than the basement. I have been wrong before, I could be wrong again.
When you run the ball 11 times for 29 yards against SF it is going to be a tough day with how the Giants are built right now. Just like Dallas and Dak had a rough day against SF the last two playoff seasons.
You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
Conversely, how much more difficult is the running game to execute when the defense isn't scared of the passing game?
I know you know this, LoS - too much of football is intertwined to just isolate any one element (including QB play, of course). So even your point about the running game, to the extent that it's valid on its face, could still (at least partially) be a reflection of the way that opponents view our passing game.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
The Giants have played a total of 3 games this year. Anyone who thinks Kafka sucks all of a sudden isn’t a serious fan of the team.
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
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In comment 16224501 KDavies said:
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In comment 16224493 Gatorade Dunk said:
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
Anyone willing to spend a little time could make a fool of Eli making that throw 10 out of 10 times. Eli left plenty on the table, the best QB you can name doesn't see the open man sometimes. Pressure and play design have dramatic effect on QB targeting. Last season, I said we had to see the the entire season before we judged Jones. That patience was justified. In being consistent, I am suggesting we look at the entirety of the season before we die on any hill regarding Jones.
Last season, people were very worried that Jones stats were not good enough and the talked in extreme absolutes on Jones. All season, I kept suggesting that Jones could win a playoff game.
It happened.
We could win 2 playoff games this year or we could be settle in the basement.
I have hunch this team is going to be better than the basement. I have been wrong before, I could be wrong again.
Let me just clarify that I should have stated, "PRIME Eli makes that throw 10 times out of 10."
Maybe it's 9 out of 10. Maybe it's 8. But I feel very confident that Eli in his prime would pull the trigger on that hole shot more often than not, maybe more often than he should have. DJ does not attempt that throw most of the time - we saw it repeatedly last year too, even when many fans were lauding DJ's improvement. For all of the supposed similarities between Eli and DJ, this is one that couldn't be more different. Young, prime Eli had a more aggressive approach to playing QB than DJ appears to have. That's my view, anyway.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
You should rewatch week 2. He fantastic in the face of pressure.
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
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If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
LOL, this deserves a sticky.
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In comment 16224553 ajr2456 said:
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Are the other moves just a case of bad GMing? Glowinski were solid players before they came here but is now unplayable.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
Again you guys are missing the point. Daniel Jones’ weaknesses make the offense easier to defend which also makes it tougher for a non elite offensive line to be successful. Jones isn’t the reason Glowinski got benched, or the sole reason the oline is at the bottom of the league but he also doesn’t do enough to make their lives easier as well. The QB absolutely has an influence on offensive line play and how the line succeeds.
Take Stroud for example. They’re missing three starters, have allowed as much pressure as the Giants but their PFF grades are higher than the Giants. Is it because their players are that much better? Not really. Stroud handles the pressure better. If Jones’ legs are neutralized he doesn’t have the processing speed to handle the pressure and goes into a shell that more often than not leads to a bad decision. That makes it a lot tougher on a non elite offensive line and leaves a razor thin margin in an era where defensive lineman are more freakish than ever.
Again, Jones isn’t why the offensive line sucks. They need to improve but Jones also needs to improve in the areas he’s deficient in. There’s very few very good to elite offensive lines in the league and most of them are an injury away from being average or worse. It’s an epidemic in the league and has been for a number of years, and it likely isn’t getting better any time soon. The way to navigate around it is with scheme and top level QB play.
there's some truth in what you said because that exact scenario played out for jordan love yesterday. he got pressured twice as much in 1 game vs det than the 3 prior games combined (1 of which was started by baktiari). quality OL play has gotten a lot harder to find over the same period of time the giants organization has been a categorical disaster. which was the new CBA practice rules 10 years ago. justin herbert wasn't a worse QB last year either, he just lost his LT.
the last sentence is fantasy though. the way to navigate an OL isn't wishing "top level QB play" into existence.
would jalen hurts produce top level qb play without a top ol?
how much money and draft picks have the chiefs spent on orlando brown, joe thuney, jawan taylor, donovan smith? trey smith and creed humphrey were pretty good draft picks werent they?
in the chicken or egg of QB/OL i'd argue the OL side because teams like SF, DET, DAL, PHI have shown that if you get the OL right, everything else can run smoother for as long as you sustain quality OL play. finding a pat mahomes or joe burrow is almost impossible. only a few of those guys come along every decade and most of the time they 1st overall picks. KC is probably the best org since hiring Reid and they've pursued both while at times still winning 10+ games with only 1 or the other.
[quote] If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you. [/quote
+1.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
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Stroud looks pretty good so far, but I don't see how in your right mind you can equate the pressure he has been under vs Jones through the 1st three games. It hasn't been close. Probably because of the fact that we played SF and Dallas, lol. And when he has had pressure he hasn't been good at feeling it leading to a couple of sack fumbles.
You should rewatch week 2. He fantastic in the face of pressure.
I didn't see much of that game, although I did see the sack fumble. More of the Ravens and the Jags. The guys I deal with in Houston for work, well actually just the one guy I talk football with is liking him so far but told me he is worried about the fumbling.
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
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You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
Many teams go years cycling through players at a particular position without finding one that is competent. Until the Giants can provide at least an average pass protecting OL it is hard to know what kind of QB he will become.
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
Quote:
Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
So you mentioned DJ's college tape but that had nothing to do with your point because you also haven't watched it and can't answer a question about it?
Maybe this is another one of your super funny jokes!
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The famous chicken or the egg debate :)
And no - the win in Minn is not "something".
Consistency is king.
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In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Tackle: 21st (Thomas extension hasn’t kicked in)
Center: 31st
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
I am not a DJ hater...unless the definition of a DJ hater is someone that never says anything negative ever about DJ...which would then indeed make me a hater.
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In comment 16224615 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
So you mentioned DJ's college tape but that had nothing to do with your point because you also haven't watched it and can't answer a question about it?
Maybe this is another one of your super funny jokes!
It's pretty clear. The Giants scouted both Jones and Haskins and determined that Jones was the better QB. Those who ripped for doing so and made slanderous accusations of the Giants being racism were clearly wrong, no? Or are you going to take the position that Haskins is better than Jones?
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
Quote:
In comment 16224622 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
Quote:
In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Christ almighty. So now the OL is fine and the roster was fine when Schoen took over? The revisitionist history to shit on Jones is beyond comical.
The one good thing that Gettleman did right was hit on high draft picks for the most part. Jones was a hit. Thomas and Lawrence were huge hits. Barkley was a hit talent wise, though agreed I would have traded down.
Quote:
The Chiefs rankings based on 2023 cap dollars at each oline position.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.
This is my viewpoint as well.
Quote:
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
Quote:
The Chiefs rankings based on 2023 cap dollars at each oline position.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.
Bingo!
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
Cool. Help me understand football better. Can you give an example of a team and year?
Quote:
My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
Cool. Help me understand football better. Can you give an example of a team and year?
Same as before. Giants 2005-10. Dallas anytime after 2014. Eagles anytime after 2016.
I understand you are not the brightest individual but.....
Speaking of repeating things, you never seem to answer my question: what were your previous handles?
How did Mahomes only score 9 points in the biggest game of the year? Why did he make the OL perform well the rest of the season, but stop waving his magic wand to make them perform well in the biggest game of the year?
Or maybe, just maybe, are offensive linemen a bit responsible for their own performance? And maybe, just maybe, is the front office responsible for investing in an OL to protect their QB?
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
Quote:
Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
I never even remotely suggested race.
I merely asked what was so special about Jones at Duke.
Either you can't answer because there is no answer or you struggle with comprehension. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can't answer because there is none.
If so, I'm still all ears...
Same as before. Giants 2005-10. Dallas anytime after 2014. Eagles anytime after 2016.
I understand you are not the brightest individual but.....
So for instance the 2022 Eagles would be a good example of what you're describing -- getting yards from their backs between the tackles?
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
The Giants haven’t invested in Oline?
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In comment 16224615 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
Quote:
Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
I never even remotely suggested race.
I merely asked what was so special about Jones at Duke.
Either you can't answer because there is no answer or you struggle with comprehension. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can't answer because there is none.
If so, I'm still all ears...
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
Can't leave out Veach. He's turned into an outstanding talent evaluator.
In comment 16224608 christian said:
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In comment 16224599 ryanmkeane said:
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If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
LOL, this deserves a sticky.
Jones has been pressured 27 times in dropbacks in under 2 seconds.
The OL sucks people. It’s been the constant variable since 2011.
Let’s say the same over and over again about Jones.
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
We shouldnt point out individual games - yet you continue to use one game by Stroud where 70% of his yards came in garbage time on why Jones hurts his OL. Haha Good work!
Quote:
And maybe, just maybe, is the front office responsible for investing in an OL to protect their QB?
The Giants haven’t invested in Oline?
posted earlier this thread:
2012 4 Mosley
6 McCants
2013
1 Pugh
7 Herman
2014
2 Richburg
2015
1 Flowers
7 Hart
2016
The OL is so damn good, don't need anyone else
2017
7 Bisnowaty - a 7th rounder is all the OL investment the Giants need in two years apparently
2018
2 Hernandez
2019
7th rounder Asafo only, despite 10 picks
2020
1 Thomas
3 Peart
2021
no OL, everything is great apparently
That's some poor shit on the whole. For the most part, I do like the investment Schoen has made the last two years, but that's an awful lot of young guys to implement at once. Basically 3 rookies and Neal, as the NC guys were injured much of the year.
So coming into Schoen's reign, the last 7 years included 4 picks higher than the 7th round: two of those: Peart and Flowers were complete busts (though Flowers turned out to be not as bad at G). The 3rd, Hernandez, was not signed to a 2nd contract.
That leaves 1 other guy: Thomas. And that's what Schoen inherited: an OL with Thomas and not much else. Again, Schoen has invested in the 2 NC guys, Neal, and JMS. But that is way too much youth to implement in the OL at one time.
So, fuck no. The Giants have not invested enough in the OL. And that is a large part of why their OL has been shit.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
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Every player has off days. That same oline that looked so bad in that game allowed Mahomes to throw for 4700 yards, 38 tds and the second highest QBR of his career.
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
We shouldnt point out individual games - yet you continue to use one game by Stroud where 70% of his yards came in garbage time on why Jones hurts his OL. Haha Good work!
I’ve pointed to three games of JUST his performance under pressure. I’m sorry that you have reading problems .
Quote:
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
And you are one of the geniuses who just look at stats, think the Giants must draft Haskins, and take no consideration for the players around him. I don't know if you follow college football much, but Ohio State is a bit of a better football program than Duke.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
Right now the Jones contract compensates him as an average/above QB.
So, you are correct. Jones was an average QB at Duke - yes, a good athlete - who was rewarded by Gettleman as the 6th pick in the draft.
In comment 16224648 KDavies said:
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In comment 16224631 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224622 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Christ almighty. So now the OL is fine and the roster was fine when Schoen took over? The revisitionist history to shit on Jones is beyond comical.
The one good thing that Gettleman did right was hit on high draft picks for the most part. Jones was a hit. Thomas and Lawrence were huge hits. Barkley was a hit talent wise, though agreed I would have traded down.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
And you are one of the geniuses who just look at stats, think the Giants must draft Haskins, and take no consideration for the players around him. I don't know if you follow college football much, but Ohio State is a bit of a better football program than Duke.
Who was Kurt Benkert throwing to at UVA? Or Jerod Evans at Virginia Tech? Or Eric Dungey at Syracuse? Or Peterman at Pitt?
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Jones isn't a great player. And when you are a lottery pick, that's the expectation - be something special.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
He may have not been pressured much against Jacksonville but when he was he was fantastic. Feel free to keep being wrong
Stroud vs pressure - ( New Window )
Some more great insight. Lol
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And you continually say “Colts” game.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
He may have not been pressured much against Jacksonville but when he was he was fantastic. Feel free to keep being wrong Stroud vs pressure - ( New Window )
That’s against the blitz. Not being pressured. Little bit of difference - lol
Some more great insight. Lol
Reading is hard I guess. Were you able to read from your other account?
The result 64% completion, 242 yards, 5.5 YPA, 0 INT
In Week 2, Stroud was pressured on 35% of his attempts and hit 9 times (6 sacks), the #11 highest pressure rate.
The result 64% completion, 384 yards, 2 tds
Play 3. Holds the ball for 5 seconds. Gain 3 yards.
2. Not a soul near stroud.
1. Not a soul near stroud again.
Thanks for pointing out what a great OL looks like and wide open receivers can do for a QB.
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
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In comment 16224477 bw in dc said:
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Jones isn't a great player. And when you are a lottery pick, that's the expectation - be something special.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
It's definitely a crapshoot. And while we wanted DJ to be exceptional for his draft slot - he's not in the top rung of QBs. Instead, he's borderline Top 10 depending on how things go. 2023 season is far from over.
And as someone said above, his contract for a player on his second at such a premium position, he's not being paid elite money. And the Giants can get out of it in two years, if they decide to go in another direction which was always the Plan B.
Phil Simms got crapped on and so did Eli. People hate NY sports that aren't from NY, I think that's a given. And the QB is an easy target always.
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Played well.
Some more great insight. Lol
Reading is hard I guess. Were you able to read from your other account?
Insults insults insults. Usually a last resort for a bully who can’t handle criticism.
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
The link was about the written text; not the video.
Explain his stats the first two weeks? I know your retort is going to be garbage time against the colts.
Where are Jones’ garbage time stats?
you are looking at bad or wrong data. this year, by average AAV spent per rostered lineman the giants are 18th in OL spending and the Chiefs are 10th. the giants number is obviously juiced by their highest paid OL Andrew Thomas, who has been hurt, and to a lesser extent their 2nd highest paid mark glowinski, who got benched. aav is a much better metric to use for both rookie contracts and veteran contracts alike because it removes any distortions from restructures, balloon years, and signing bonuses.
last year KC was 8th in the NFL, the NYG were 30th/32. which obviously makes sense for any team whose highest paid OL is mark glowinski.
if you go from spreadsheets to the actual results on the field it becomes clear how different each players OL has performed. if you want to say a QB has an impact on their sack totals i can buy that, but they dont control how often they get pressured in the first place. if you want to give a QB credit for "magic feet", isn't that skill only useful when pressured? in a clean pocket who needs magic feet? wink has made a career out of 'pressure busts pipes'.
this is % of drop backs under pressure:
2023 - jones 46%, mahomes 30%
2022 - jones 42%, mahomes 33%
in the 2020 super bowl when mahomes only scored 9 points and got picked off twice he was under pressure 55% of snaps. when kept clean in that game he was 17/23 for 192 yards. when pressured he was 9/26 for 78 yards.
last year against philly in the SB he was pressured just 35% of snaps, and that was with a high ankle. in clean pockets vs philly he was 17/18 for 144 yards and 3 tds. when pressured he was 4/9 for 38 yards. i would argue that keeping mahomes clean as often as they did against the philly pass rush was the key factor in winning that game. other than the hurts fumble for a bolton td.
if you look at the right stats, which i believe pressure% to be, you will see the trend that it very clearly makes any QB worse. against dallas jones was pressured 67% which i think was 1 of the highest recorded. against arizona it was just 29% and against SF is was back to 44%.
yesterday jordan love was pressured 47% and went 6/14 for 48 yards and 1 int. he was 17/22 for 198 yards in clean pocket.
tua has so far been the least pressured QB in football at just 21%.
by the way back to wink on the flip side, im pretty sure the NYG defensive pressure% on QBs they've faced so far this year is like 15% (16 pressures on 106 passing plays). so they have given every QB they played more pressure than the best single team has performed.
being 1 of the most pressured offenses and least pressuring defenses is not a good combination.
Poor rate throw per game this year
Jones:
15%
8.5%
16%
Stroud:
26%
35.5% (the vaunted Indy game)
19% (game where he was pressured 3 times - and had clean pockets as Ajr pointed out for us)
Damn these stats!
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He has resorted to using prestine pockets and wide open WRs to save face!
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
The link was about the written text; not the video.
Explain his stats the first two weeks? I know your retort is going to be garbage time against the colts.
Where are Jones’ garbage time stats?
All you showed were stats against the blitz. And many times the blitz didn’t come home as evidence by the video. Guys were open by huge distances as shown I. The video against the blitz.
Again - explain the 27 pressures in under 2 seconds against Jones. Or how our starters at WR have the worst separation in the league.
I’ll be waiting…
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
Schoen signed Glowinski, obviously that hasn't really worked out. So he's 0-1 in the signings department for interior.
JMS seems like he could be a stalwart, possible pro bowl upside down the road but you never know, it's early.
McKethan seems like a guy they'd like to develop as a guard starter but the guy has played 2 games? Have to give it time with him. Ezeudu, another guy they'd obviously like to develop into a starter at LG possibly next year, but have to give it time.
Bottom line is, Neal obviously and JMS were high draft assets. They have to work out if we are going to solve this thing. And they have to develop mid round guards or find good guards in FA to compete with what we have going into 2024.
Poor rate throw per game this year
Jones:
15%
8.5%
16%
Stroud:
26%
35.5% (the vaunted Indy game)
19% (game where he was pressured 3 times - and had clean pockets as Ajr pointed out for us)
Damn these stats!
Jones stats down 20-0 count but Strouds don’t?
Where are Jones garbage time stats against San Fran and Dallas?
Stroud has been better vs pressure than Jones this year, the numbers and film prove it.
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
And we shouldn’t count stats in a game where Jones came back and won?
My god. You’re having a really bad day!
Explain the 27 pressures in under 2 seconds and our WRs not getting open.
I’ll be waiting..
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Not boosted by two players as well? That data is 2023 cap dollars from sportrac.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
Thomas didn’t play in the Philly game last year? We like to focus on just three games this year but the theme over the last two years is that the oline is at its worst when the QB run game is non existent (Philly 2x, second Dallas game, Tennessee, Seattle, Baltimore). Teams know if they take away Jones’ legs, they don’t have to worry about the pass which puts more pressure on the oline and reduces their margin for error. Jones isn’t the main culprit for the olines poor play, but his limitations as a processor before the snap and during pressure exasperate the issue.
Part of the difference between the play between the Chiefs and Giants along the oline is that Jones is easy to defend. Put Mahomes behind the Giants oline and I’d wager the oline is in the mid 20s instead of 32nd.
And we shouldn’t count stats in a game where Jones came back and won?
My god. You’re having a really bad day!
You’re dismissing all of Strouds stats. Strouds stats don’t count because he was down a lot and didn’t win, despite his best effort. Jones stats count because he won. Got it.
No wonder why you needed a new account.
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Then why do you value Jones?
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
Is the question "does DJ play worse when pressured?" or is it even "do all QBs play worse when pressured?"
Because I think the question should be, at least in part, "is there anything about DJ's game that invites and/or causes more pressure than other QBs might face?"
I can acknowledge that defensive pressure tends to be at the root of DJ's struggles (when those occur). I'm just curious if there is anything that DJ might be doing to contribute to that pressure. Do teams defend him differently than they might defend another QB with a similar skill set?
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Stroud and Jones have the same number of wins this year. And both have fewer wins than you have BBI handles.
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In comment 16224722 ajr2456 said:
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Not boosted by two players as well? That data is 2023 cap dollars from sportrac.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
Thomas didn’t play in the Philly game last year? We like to focus on just three games this year but the theme over the last two years is that the oline is at its worst when the QB run game is non existent (Philly 2x, second Dallas game, Tennessee, Seattle, Baltimore). Teams know if they take away Jones’ legs, they don’t have to worry about the pass which puts more pressure on the oline and reduces their margin for error. Jones isn’t the main culprit for the olines poor play, but his limitations as a processor before the snap and during pressure exasperate the issue.
Part of the difference between the play between the Chiefs and Giants along the oline is that Jones is easy to defend. Put Mahomes behind the Giants oline and I’d wager the oline is in the mid 20s instead of 32nd.
at this point you are either trolling or just dodging to muddy the waters.
my comment about thomas' salary juicing the giants $ on the OL is simple - since he got his big contract he hasn't played. he took 1 healthy pass pro rep before hurting himself on the FG return.
you can say until you are blue in the face that the giants spend just as much as the chiefs on their OL but it's wrong any way you slice it. the chiefs $20m tackle has started all 3 games this year as has their $20m guard who was an all pro last year. the giants havent had an all pro on their OL since chris snee.
the chiefs had 3 pro bowlers on their OL last year. the last 3 giants to make the pro bowl are who? snee, ohara, diehl? you are literally out of your mind if you think the 2 OLs are comparable.
The Giants have invested a lot in the offensive line over 10 years. One constant is mediocre QB play. That absolutely has an effect on how the offensive line plays. How much of an impact can be up for debate, but it absolutely is an impact.
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
Bingo
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under pressure his y/a and comp% are almost exactly the same as jones.
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
Is the question "does DJ play worse when pressured?" or is it even "do all QBs play worse when pressured?"
Because I think the question should be, at least in part, "is there anything about DJ's game that invites and/or causes more pressure than other QBs might face?"
I can acknowledge that defensive pressure tends to be at the root of DJ's struggles (when those occur). I'm just curious if there is anything that DJ might be doing to contribute to that pressure. Do teams defend him differently than they might defend another QB with a similar skill set?
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
the bold is exactly the point - in my experience since the stats have become publicly available ALL QBs are worse under pressure. any time ive looked to see something anecdotally the numbers have supported that. And obvious logic supports it too. Tom Brady was an all time QB who knew how to beat the blitz but when he was pressured against the NYG he got worse. Same with Joe Montana. This is (was?) a fundamentally accepted truism if people step back from trying to big brain it. The new metrics point out only what was previously obvious just not as quantified. here is aaron rodgers in his mvp season 2 years ago, he was a notorious 'beat the blitz' guy and the numbers back that up - but not every blitz becomes a pressure and when pressured he was clearly a much different player than when he wasn't.
I think the majority of your theory above is also big braining something simple. The Giants OL hasn't protected well in a decade. How many twists have we seen interior OL not communicate? how many times has shane lemiuex posted literal 0 grades in pass pro? neal get taken advantage of? teams attack weaknesses and the giants OL has been a weakness for over a decade so whoever played QB for the giants would have been pressured more and therefore played worse than they played virtually anywhere else but especially teams like KC or dallas or philly or SF that have had very good OLs.
does jones do something that invites more pressure? yes, he plays for a team that hasn't had a offensive lineman in a pro bowl in over a decade and the only potential pro bowler on the roster got hurt on the first drive of the year.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
Who in that list has Jones better than? Wilson? Fine. Rosen? Fine. Darnold? Fine.
You can't include Fields because Jones was granted four years to show he's above average. So, Fields should get two more years per the rules of the DJFC. And Lance deserves more time, too. Maybe Wilson should also be granted the same time period as well...
All of the others are questionable.
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More so than empty stats.
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Then why do you value Jones?
It’s not valuing Jones but the offense as a whole. I never claimed him to be a great QB. But there are very few sound voices when it comes to his play.
Has he missed throws? Absolutely
Has he missed open WRs? Absolutely
Does he bird dog WRs? Absolutely
However what is tough to decipher is to why? People can claim whatever they want as to the reasons why. But there are such huge factors that contribute to poor QB play. Some of the things I have pointed
1. He is the most pressured QB (and yes, some can be attributed to him)
2. His WRs are the worst in the NFL in getting separation.
3. He averages of being pressured 9 times per game in under 2 seconds.
4. His WRs are near the top of the league in drop percentage.
5. He is one of the highest sacked QBs in the league.
Put in those factors with Jones’s weaknesses - and you get a bad offense. But everything needs to be accounted for.
That’s why I don’t care the circumstances for Mahomes, Stroud, Burrow, or any other QB. IMO, there’s very little talent on the offense outside Thomas (who’s hurt) and Barkley (who’s one dimensional)
That’s my point. If Jones misses wide open guys with a decent pocket - he deserves the blame. I remmeber last week he had Walker coming across the middle where if he hit him in stride - it would have been a huge play. But he threw a little high and behind him causing an incompletion. People blamed Waller but it was a poor throw.
Smell any good farts lately, Chop?
2) His record in prime time is pitiful.
3) The Giants' overall record is pitiful.
Objectively, if he'd had the Dallas O-line and weapons, he'd have earned a lot more respect from fans. As for disrespect from NFL players, I'll bet at least 50% of them would trade their QBs for him. He's easy to make fun of because his public persona is so bland.
The Giants have invested a lot in the offensive line over 10 years. One constant is mediocre QB play. That absolutely has an effect on how the offensive line plays. How much of an impact can be up for debate, but it absolutely is an impact.
this is so stupidly backwards.
first off the QB play wasn't constantly mediocre all 10 years, Eli won his 2nd SB at age 30 and had at least 3 or 4 prime years following the SB wasted in large part by bad OL play.
but sure, let's blame the QBs for the fact that out of 100+ OL they didnt have a single one make the pro bowl in the last decade, not the guys that drafted/signed/evaluated/coached the OL who all got fired and are in most cases out of the nfl.
As for Jones he is not the problem with the team. He is part of the answer.
The Giants have the youngest starting lineup in the NFL. They need reps to succeed.
Anyone who thought that the Giants had a chance vs. SF is nuts.
Missing Thomas, Barkley, Ojulari, Bredeson, and playing on Thursday was a losing formula. Home teams on Thursday nights win 68% of the time.
Young teams are at a greater disadvantage playing with a short week.
The Dallas game was another difficult situation. The Giants were not prepared. Again they are young and needed reps.
The offense and defensive starters played (2) series.
That is fine if you are veteran team. The Giants were outplayed, out coached, and looked like a minor league team.
it confounds me how the OL was not prepared for stunts and overloads. Part of the problem is that the line was not set as a result there was no continuity.
The defense was worse. Winks defense requires coordination between all three levels. I was shocked to see how they misplayed simple plays. Misdirection was killing the team and they cannot tackle.
The other component about the Dallas game is that the Giants have to win the Special teams.
My hope and belief is that the Giants will improve as the season progresses.
But the caveat is that the coaching is able to bring this young team together.
& for both, it's simple:
1) A lot of people hated how Eli maneuvered his way to NY. And that he was Peyton's brother. And he came across as a goofy guy.
2) Jones...where he was picked. The amount of coin he got this past offseason that definitely was @ the expense of #26, which probably pisses a lot of fellow players off because Saquon strikes me as more a gregarious guy than DJ.
Nobody knows what Stroud is going to be. Guy has played 3 NFL games and throwing out stats to say he’s this is or that is idiotic. Yeah if he goes at this pace for the entire year he’ll be like the best rookie ever. Something tells me that will not be the case.
We even had posters debating whether it was good to move on from Jones and take Willis because of his incredible arm strength and athleticism.
Grading QBs in a single season based on 3 games is absolutely useless. Will Stroud be awesome? Possibly. But we’ve seen young QBs look great early on and then become terrible, or ones that look not so great and then be awesome.
Judging Stroud based on games against Indy, Jacksonville, and Baltimore is likely not the best sample size. Let’s see how he does against throughout the year.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
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Perfect example is Eli. Guy couldn’t complete a screen pass and was widely inaccurate his first 4 seasons. Turns out he becomes the best Giants QB ever and possibly a hall of famer.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
Perfect example of judging something before it becomes whole. Eli showed traits of being an awesome quarterback his first 4 seasons but as I said, was downright bad at times and literally could not throw the ball accurately to a guy right next to him. And then something clicked. And then he was probably a top 7-8 QB in the league for 6 years straight. Won two titles and then we struggled to put a team behind him for almost a decade.
So, Stroud might be playing well right now, 3 games into his career. But his team performance, defense, etc will determine his winning percentage.
Unless you are Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady, which Jones is not, you just can’t rise above poor play from other aspects of the team every single week. You can do it sometimes but not always.
I genuinely mean this as helpful advice, Ryan. You seem to be conflating two separate considerations: sample size (defined most clearly by the quantity of games played against different opponents), and strength of schedule (defined most clearly by the quality of opponents).
And it is apparent now when after 3 games, two against two of the best teams in the entire league when he had almost no time to throw, you guys are doing the same things yet again.
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In comment 16224796 ryanmkeane said:
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Perfect example is Eli. Guy couldn’t complete a screen pass and was widely inaccurate his first 4 seasons. Turns out he becomes the best Giants QB ever and possibly a hall of famer.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
Perfect example of judging something before it becomes whole. Eli showed traits of being an awesome quarterback his first 4 seasons but as I said, was downright bad at times and literally could not throw the ball accurately to a guy right next to him. And then something clicked. And then he was probably a top 7-8 QB in the league for 6 years straight. Won two titles and then we struggled to put a team behind him for almost a decade.
So, Stroud might be playing well right now, 3 games into his career. But his team performance, defense, etc will determine his winning percentage.
Unless you are Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady, which Jones is not, you just can’t rise above poor play from other aspects of the team every single week. You can do it sometimes but not always.
Ok, fair. But weren't you the one not even a month ago telling us that the book was closed on DJ and he had already proven himself to be a success?
This has always included you. It still includes you. And not only do you not have the ability to judge things realistically from a "football team" perspective, you also lack the acumen to pass judgment on other fans.
But while we're at it, let's talk about how you KNEW on the day that he was drafted that Kadarius Toney would be a bust. Did you let that play out? Or are you just emboldened to share that opinion because you thought it would earn you another precious victory lap?
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
I took heat on Jones every day for like 3 years because I defended him saying he was going to be really good. I still feel that way and never once have I said “the book is closed, Jones is great.”
I just don’t agree with this constant rush to judge the guy when he literally has never had a stable OL, coaching staff, weapons, OC, until basically until *hopefully* this year and beyond.
And yeah, sue me if I took a victory lap when he went into Minnesota and broke a NFL record to win a road playoff game when most of this board thought he would be off the team and we would go 3-14 last year.
As I said, how many games have we played this year and which teams have we lost to?
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But to answer the question of “why does Jones QB get so much hate?” It boils down to this:
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
The OL gave up 27 sacks which was tied for 4th best in the entire league. Which proves the point that with a pretty good OL, Eli was still very good.
Ok, that’s great. Agree. Not sure why we have to do this week after week.
The irony.
Why would Giants fans cheer for another team? Better yet, why do you think you’re the police of peoples thoughts and feelings?
You'd think he's a mediocre QB.
Don't lie.
But he's gotta bring his A game vs. Seattle. This is a crucial game for him & the team.
You keep saying this, but when have I ever left?
You love to tell people how they should feel or think instead of actually having a discussion. You provide no value to this board, and the opinion you think this board has of me, they actually have of you. If “most of the board” wants me gone they’re free to say so.
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In comment 16224804 ryanmkeane said:
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But to answer the question of “why does Jones QB get so much hate?” It boils down to this:
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
The OL gave up 27 sacks which was tied for 4th best in the entire league. Which proves the point that with a pretty good OL, Eli was still very good.
Go look at who was on that OL. They weren't an especially good OL. Eli played in a way that minimized his exposure to that line, because that's what elite QBs do.
Unless you want to tell me that Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Geoff Schwartz, and Marshall Newhouse were the second coming of the Suburbanites.
They were a meh OL that benefitted from a great QB at the helm.
What type of fan am I, please tell me? Because I was here in 2016. Was here all through last year. I’m pretty sure I spend more money supporting the team than you do. So tell me what type of fan I am?
You never said the book on DJ is already complete?
How do you walk face first into this shit without realizing that people have the receipts?
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In comment 16224259 Toth029 said:
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Got tons of disrespect and still does.
I'm just numb by opposing fans and truthfully how dumb and ignorant many of the players are.
Let's not compare the two. Eli Manning is a 2x Super Bowl winning MVP.
We can’t compare them? Until Eli won he was treated like Jones is and after the second title it only took a year or two for him to be treated like he was in 2006/7 all over again.
I just think it’s the nature of being in NY. Your failures are magnified and your success is barely celebrated. People enjoy failure.
Nailed it. This x 1000.
Eli is still crapped on. He got two small reprieves in hatred, after XLII and XLVI. Outside those short windows after he was back to being trash to average fans. And it definitely has something to do with the market they are in.
Not one single Giants fan should feel bad for the press that Jones is getting. We should all expect more. He convinced the Giants he could be a $40M player. So go fucking do it
Keep in mind there's only .5 seconds between the quarterbacks with the most and least time in the pocket. All quarterbacks on average only have between 2.2 - 2.7 seconds before things get bad (Jones on his career is ~2.45 which is league average).
And also keep in mind many quarterbacks with low time in pocket are very good, and it's a measure of how quickly they make decisions, not a measure of bad pass protection.
What I've never seen data on is the timing of pressure. Put aside that pressures are a subjective stat and that hitting a QB while he's throwing counts the same as forcing a QB to scramble -- how long the quarterback takes to make a decision certainly should be part of the calculus on if the pass pro is good or bad. And remember this is measured in tenths of a second.
I wonder if you take out the catastrophic plays where the protection completely breaks down immediately, if Jones holds onto the ball a touch longer and invites more pressure and sacks than his more successful and better protected peers.
If Jones was on the low end of the bell curve of pocket time and and on the high end in pressures, I'd be less curious.
But because he's in the middle on pocket time, it makes me curious.
Keep in mind there's only .5 seconds between the quarterbacks with the most and least time in the pocket. All quarterbacks on average only have between 2.2 - 2.7 seconds before things get bad (Jones on his career is ~2.45 which is league average).
And also keep in mind many quarterbacks with low time in pocket are very good, and it's a measure of how quickly they make decisions, not a measure of bad pass protection.
What I've never seen data on is the timing of pressure. Put aside that pressures are a subjective stat and that hitting a QB while he's throwing counts the same as forcing a QB to scramble -- how long the quarterback takes to make a decision certainly should be part of the calculus on if the pass pro is good or bad. And remember this is measured in tenths of a second.
I wonder if you take out the catastrophic plays where the protection completely breaks down immediately, if Jones holds onto the ball a touch longer and invites more pressure and sacks than his more successful and better protected peers.
If Jones was on the low end of the bell curve of pocket time and and on the high end in pressures, I'd be less curious.
But because he's in the middle on pocket time, it makes me curious.
There’s a lot of good info there but like I said one stat that really stands out is 27 pressures in under 2 seconds. That’s over half his pressures. That’s very alarming and I’m not sure you can say a lot of them are on Jones.
Can Jones be awesome with an average to below average OL is the question. Have not seen it yet. Eli did this in 2011 but he also had 2 great receivers in their prime and a defense that got hot. Somewhat of an outlier I guess.
Even the best QBs look average with bad OL play.
I think Jones should feel very fortunate he was drafted by the Giants. Many QB's don't get this long a leash. Yet people talk about how lousy his situation is.
I know we need more data and Jones has the season to turn this around, but so far he hasn’t been good even when the blocking holds.
Eric - thanks for posting these shots. Really interesting. One qualifier is that the number of rushers used to generate the pressure isn’t listed and we know the Cowboys and 49ers were generating pressure with just 4 or 5 pass rushers.
Pugh stuck around playing another position and being mediocre.
Weston Richburg stuck around and went to SF. Suffered an injury and has been out of the league for a while now.
Ereck Flowers stayed, played worse than Nate Solder and the GM and HC (McAdoo) defended him for eternity. Once an outside guy came in, he was moved off LT and half a season later, traded because the motherfucker was a quitter. Went to the Jags in the trade, let go after. Miami and Washington had him in for a cup of coffee and is now out of the league.
Will Hernandez was supposed to be a top OG prospect but did not improve after a solid rookie year. Now hanging on with a Cardinals team trying to rebuild.
Guys like Neal, Ezeudu, McKethan and Schmitz, we'll see. They seem like hard workers unlike Flowers. The Giants began to fall apart in 2011 because Reese failed to rebuild the line that was striving in 2006-2009. Picking soft guys like Will Beatty and Justin Pugh did no favors. They could have had Ryan Ramczyk in 2017, and Andrew Whitworth, but who needs those guys when you have a near 40 year old QB who doesn't have much mobility and your bookend tackles are Ereck Flowers and Bobby Hart.
Not one single Giants fan should feel bad for the press that Jones is getting. We should all expect more. He convinced the Giants he could be a $40M player. So go fucking do it
Indeed, we should expect more. However, that should have been the case once Jones was selected 6th.
The great divide on Jones boils largely down to these two views:
A. Jones can only be as good as his supporting cast. Until we get him enough great parts, it's unfair to judge him. But he's probably a special player.
B. Jones can be pretty good player, but he doesn't do enough as the QB that will help the team properly allocate cap resources. So, it's probably a better idea to keep looking for a cheaper alternative in the draft.
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Not one single Giants fan should feel bad for the press that Jones is getting. We should all expect more. He convinced the Giants he could be a $40M player. So go fucking do it
Indeed, we should expect more. However, that should have been the case once Jones was selected 6th.
The great divide on Jones boils largely down to these two views:
A. Jones can only be as good as his supporting cast. Until we get him enough great parts, it's unfair to judge him. But he's probably a special player.
B. Jones can be pretty good player, but he doesn't do enough as the QB that will help the team properly allocate cap resources. So, it's probably a better idea to keep looking for a cheaper alternative in the draft.
But outside the top 3-4 QBs - you can say that about a lot of QBs. I mean Dak has been on loaded teams, Cousins has had weapons galore, Geno has a great supporting cast, and I mean even look at a guy like Hurts - there’s a ton of QBs who would kill for his situation.
I think there are 3 ELITE QBs in the league who deserve all the money they get. Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. Herbert and Tua are obviously have big years but they need some playoff success to match those 3.
The rest? Interchangeable IMO
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In comment 16224853 BigBlueShock said:
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Not one single Giants fan should feel bad for the press that Jones is getting. We should all expect more. He convinced the Giants he could be a $40M player. So go fucking do it
Indeed, we should expect more. However, that should have been the case once Jones was selected 6th.
The great divide on Jones boils largely down to these two views:
A. Jones can only be as good as his supporting cast. Until we get him enough great parts, it's unfair to judge him. But he's probably a special player.
B. Jones can be pretty good player, but he doesn't do enough as the QB that will help the team properly allocate cap resources. So, it's probably a better idea to keep looking for a cheaper alternative in the draft.
But outside the top 3-4 QBs - you can say that about a lot of QBs. I mean Dak has been on loaded teams, Cousins has had weapons galore, Geno has a great supporting cast, and I mean even look at a guy like Hurts - there’s a ton of QBs who would kill for his situation.
I think there are 3 ELITE QBs in the league who deserve all the money they get. Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. Herbert and Tua are obviously have big years but they need some playoff success to match those 3.
The rest? Interchangeable IMO
I agree with this. I do think Allen (WHEN HE IS NOT BEING A HERO) and Herbert are in a 2nd tier just below Burrow and Mahomes. Everyone else you can argue until the paint dries... lol
Meh I disagree. I think with better protection he can do it. But obviously just my opinion.
I still believe that even if he is a bridge QB - he can be effective enough to make others around him better until we find a better option. Just putting a rookie back there can be just as detrimental in the long run.
There’s a lot of good info there but like I said one stat that really stands out is 27 pressures in under 2 seconds. That’s over half his pressures. That’s very alarming and I’m not sure you can say a lot of them are on Jones.
I'd be inclined to say any pressure before the league average pocket time isn't the quarterback's fault. And I'd wager 9+ no-fault pressures per game is or close to league worst.
If I were conducting a study professionally I'd bucket into 3 categories:
1) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on no-fault pressures
2) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on QB caused pressures
3) Number of drop backs and pocket time when not pressured
And then how that measures against the league.
I don't have a sense one way or the other, but getting pressured is much like separation. There's an element the QB is responsible for.
Indeed, we should expect more. However, that should have been the case once Jones was selected 6th.
The great divide on Jones boils largely down to these two views:
A. Jones can only be as good as his supporting cast. Until we get him enough great parts, it's unfair to judge him. But he's probably a special player.
B. Jones can be pretty good player, but he doesn't do enough as the QB that will help the team properly allocate cap resources. So, it's probably a better idea to keep looking for a cheaper alternative in the draft.
But outside the top 3-4 QBs - you can say that about a lot of QBs. I mean Dak has been on loaded teams, Cousins has had weapons galore, Geno has a great supporting cast, and I mean even look at a guy like Hurts - there’s a ton of QBs who would kill for his situation.
I think there are 3 ELITE QBs in the league who deserve all the money they get. Mahomes, Allen, and Burrow. Herbert and Tua are obviously have big years but they need some playoff success to match those 3.
The rest? Interchangeable IMO
I'm really not looking for the "misery loves company" argument. ;)
IMV, if Jones is one of these interchangeable QBs, he's not the solution.
While every organization tries, it is really hard to do what the 49ers have done: build a great team around a QB with slightly above average physical skills. If we have to continue to try to get there with Jones, it's very likely going to fail as a plan.
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But because he's in the middle on pocket time, it makes me curious.
There’s a lot of good info there but like I said one stat that really stands out is 27 pressures in under 2 seconds. That’s over half his pressures. That’s very alarming and I’m not sure you can say a lot of them are on Jones.
I'd be inclined to say any pressure before the league average pocket time isn't the quarterback's fault. And I'd wager 9+ no-fault pressures per game is or close to league worst.
If I were conducting a study professionally I'd bucket into 3 categories:
1) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on no-fault pressures
2) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on QB caused pressures
3) Number of drop backs and pocket time when not pressured
And then how that measures against the league.
I don't have a sense one way or the other, but getting pressured is much like separation. There's an element the QB is responsible for.
What about “coverage” pressures?
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Not one single Giants fan should feel bad for the press that Jones is getting. We should all expect more. He convinced the Giants he could be a $40M player. So go fucking do it
Indeed, we should expect more. However, that should have been the case once Jones was selected 6th.
The great divide on Jones boils largely down to these two views:
A. Jones can only be as good as his supporting cast. Until we get him enough great parts, it's unfair to judge him. But he's probably a special player.
B. Jones can be pretty good player, but he doesn't do enough as the QB that will help the team properly allocate cap resources. So, it's probably a better idea to keep looking for a cheaper alternative in the draft.
This **. Perfect
I've been disappointed in Jones. End of last season I thought he did some great things all considered, even more impressive on tape. Last game was exact opposite. He didn't look good live and worse on tape.
Problem is, going back to A, the conditions have been more adverse than planned for Jones. There's a certain level of OL protection required which he's rarely received, and his playmakers haven't made plays. He's been what he usually is -- big part of the good or bad that turns up on the field. Which is mostly bad so far. He gets an incomplete like most of the team.
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In comment 16224862 JT039 said:
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But because he's in the middle on pocket time, it makes me curious.
There’s a lot of good info there but like I said one stat that really stands out is 27 pressures in under 2 seconds. That’s over half his pressures. That’s very alarming and I’m not sure you can say a lot of them are on Jones.
I'd be inclined to say any pressure before the league average pocket time isn't the quarterback's fault. And I'd wager 9+ no-fault pressures per game is or close to league worst.
If I were conducting a study professionally I'd bucket into 3 categories:
1) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on no-fault pressures
2) Number of drop backs and average pocket time on QB caused pressures
3) Number of drop backs and pocket time when not pressured
And then how that measures against the league.
I don't have a sense one way or the other, but getting pressured is much like separation. There's an element the QB is responsible for.
What about “coverage” pressures?
Also, are we talking normal pressures or the absolute jailbreaks this offensive line often allows?
I don't have a sense one way or the other, but getting pressured is much like separation. There's an element the QB is responsible for.
What about “coverage” pressures?
I'd put that on the QB, because he can take off or get rid of the ball.
What about “coverage” pressures?
Also, are we talking normal pressures or the absolute jailbreaks this offensive line often allows?
That's where I began. If the goal is to understand if the QB has a part in how much he's pressured, you would remove all pressures that occured at or below the average pocket time for the league.
I know we need more data and Jones has the season to turn this around, but so far he hasn’t been good even when the blocking holds.
Eric - thanks for posting these shots. Really interesting. One qualifier is that the number of rushers used to generate the pressure isn’t listed and we know the Cowboys and 49ers were generating pressure with just 4 or 5 pass rushers.
1 aspect of pressure i havent seen quantified but would suspect is that the more of it a qb gets the more diminishing returns there are on "clean". the clock is sped up for both qb and playcaller, more guys are being kept in to protect, receivers are running fewer downfield routes. when defenses are generating pressure every other play, the entire offense goes into every play expecting pressure.
my point in this thread was that the way the giants have been pressured this year, which has been significantly more than last year because they lost their LT and played 2 elite pass rushes, would have impacted whoever the qb was - no different than herbert last year when his LT went down. in the dallas game that was definite at 67% pressure, in the arizona game the pressure was normal (30%) and jones put together a great 2nd half, SF was somewhere directly in between which made it a more competitive game even though the defense couldnt get off the field.
here's another anecdotal one to add to the list since herbert is another sacred cow - like all the others his numbers similarly took a big hit under pressure last year, and he was facing almost 25% less pressure last year than the giants have allowed this year. this year he's been kept clean about 20% more often and all of his numbers are better.
also notice teams are blitzing him more but getting less pressure. that goes to what i was saying earlier about the halo effects of having good protection (and the opposite halo effect when you have bad protection).
Keep in mind there's only .5 seconds between the quarterbacks with the most and least time in the pocket. All quarterbacks on average only have between 2.2 - 2.7 seconds before things get bad (Jones on his career is ~2.45 which is league average).
And also keep in mind many quarterbacks with low time in pocket are very good, and it's a measure of how quickly they make decisions, not a measure of bad pass protection.
What I've never seen data on is the timing of pressure. Put aside that pressures are a subjective stat and that hitting a QB while he's throwing counts the same as forcing a QB to scramble -- how long the quarterback takes to make a decision certainly should be part of the calculus on if the pass pro is good or bad. And remember this is measured in tenths of a second.
I wonder if you take out the catastrophic plays where the protection completely breaks down immediately, if Jones holds onto the ball a touch longer and invites more pressure and sacks than his more successful and better protected peers.
If Jones was on the low end of the bell curve of pocket time and and on the high end in pressures, I'd be less curious.
But because he's in the middle on pocket time, it makes me curious.
looks like you've been paying attention in the time to throw thread as well as this one.
my 2 cents on your questions, as you speculate being in the middle is meaningless on it's own, but id also theorize the definition of middle needs some drilling down and that you probably only want to compare running qbs to other running qbs since they are more likely to extend plays than pocket passers who will probably get the ball out when things break down. jones, lamar, and fields were among the most time to throw last year as examples. here's PFF's leaderboard from last year and you can see scrambles are generally the longest of the inputs so more scrambles = holding the ball longer on average. but in fields/lamar's cases they were also holding the ball longest on pass attempts while jones and allen were tied for the amount of time to get rid of the ball on pass attempts.
this year jones is getting the ball out faster across every metric and i think the most obvious explaination is that he has less time from getting pressured more.
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I don't have a sense one way or the other, but getting pressured is much like separation. There's an element the QB is responsible for.
What about “coverage” pressures?
Also, are we talking normal pressures or the absolute jailbreaks this offensive line often allows?
That's where I began. If the goal is to understand if the QB has a part in how much he's pressured, you would remove all pressures that occured at or below the average pocket time for the league.
i dont know of a database with stats on that but i think for running qbs in particular the more you slice/dice the time to throw metric the trickier it gets to evaluate because guys who have the athletic ability to make plays out of nothing like josh allen does, you dont want to coach to get rid of the ball quick. you may be willing to eat a few sacks over the course of the year coaching them to try to evade pressure and not just reflexing get rid of the ball.
you can create minutia out of anything because there's no 1 right way to do everything. thats why teams play all different schemes/styles. the 49ers and dolphins (mcdaniel from sf) being the quickest teams to throw and having the success they've had the last 2 years seems like right now their schemes are doing something right since neither has a great QB.
the big picture here is the giants have allowed an exceptional amount of pressure on their qb so far this year. have you seen enough data to agree that any QB sees less success with more pressure?
ironically "magic feet" mahomes was 3rd most last year and responsible for more of his own pressures than jones in either season. as i mentioned re Allen though i wouldnt be surprised if they dont coach it otherwise because he is so adept at hitting big plays when he buys himself extra time. if pressured they probably prefer that he keeps his eyes downfield vs bailing on the play even if it means a few more sacks. same with rodgers/allen.
RT has been a big problem for the Giants both years but notice that increase at RG year over year. I assume that's why mr glowinski is on the bench. nice to see that JMS is already an upgrade though and ezeudu really has done a good job at LT.
eli was the 3rd most pressured QB in the NFL but one of the least responsible for his own pressure. cruz and nicks started 12 and 15 games respectively this season. this would probably be exhibit A of a wasted prime year for Eli by poor OL.
eye balling some years in between the mcadoo offense did help reduce the number of pressures allowed even as the OL didn't necessarily improve. the pressures jumped back up in the years since with shurmur, judge, and dabs.
bottomline with the organization is that in these 10 years since snee retired they havent been able to rebuild the OL correctly. they have put a decent amount of resources into it in aggregate but nobody has gotten it right. and the guys in any org who get the most credit/blame for everything have gotten blame.
That might be exactly what I'm curious about.
That might be exactly what I'm curious about.
i think it's just a pressure - they call the report "allowed pressure" and the APDB column is defined in their key as "APDB: The number of Dropbacks when under pressure". There is a delta in the APDB and total pressures, so my guess is maybe that is free blitzers where nobody is responsible for having allowed it?
pretty sure Jones' 16.7% responsibility rate is the 8 pressures they assign to him divided by the 48 total.
Fucking wonderful.
To be crystal clear, I haven't studied the data on Jones, so I'm not positing an opinion or conclusion.
My view is simply: if the rate of pressure is a strong factor in why the offense hasn't performed, understanding all of the reasons for it is important. And logically there are times where the quarterback is to blame.
*If* Jones is to blame for a big percentage, that sheds new light for me.
Said in another way (again), Jones is either galactically unlucky or is part of the problem when it comes to the pressure he faces.
This is a great point, and despite the challenge in validation, I suspect we can intuitively assume it to be true.
It does, IMO, beg the question of whether certain QBs (and/or playcallers) experience those diminishing returns on clean pockets more quickly (i.e., it takes fewer pressured reps to speed up the QB's clock) than others, and whether they experience those diminishing returns more dramatically (i.e., the QB's clock speeds up to a greater degree) than others.
This strikes me as the sort of response spectrum we might see from any set of people in any setting - for example, if 100 different people were all driving the same route and all got stuck in the same traffic, the time that it would take for those people to either reroute, experience road rage, or turn around and go home, or any other response, would vary from one person to the next.
So we can accept that the traffic is outside of their control, but only some of the group will respond by rerouting to their destination, while others will respond in ways that do not help them reach their destination. And even among the rerouting subset, there will be a range of different amounts of time that must lapse before considering a new route, which will impact what alternative routes are available to them.
To be crystal clear, I haven't studied the data on Jones, so I'm not positing an opinion or conclusion.
My view is simply: if the rate of pressure is a strong factor in why the offense hasn't performed, understanding all of the reasons for it is important. And logically there are times where the quarterback is to blame.
*If* Jones is to blame for a big percentage, that sheds new light for me.
Said in another way (again), Jones is either galactically unlucky or is part of the problem when it comes to the pressure he faces.
except the numbers dont bare that out so either you can trust the numbers or keep searching for ways to poke holes in the obvious that the OL has been one of the worst through 3 weeks.
just as it's been in aggregate over the last decade.
not unrelated in the last week nextgen announced rolling out a new stat to model pressure probabilities that will actually factor in all of the inputs you've described. i havent seen the database published yet but i'd wager a lot that this metric will not be kind to the nyg OL and micah parsons/javon hargrave will have charts against the giants that look an awful lot like this graphic of parsons sacking zach wilson much quicker than would typically be expected.
without seeing the machine learned nextgen stats im pretty sure simple math makes my wager a lock because in the aggregate the giants have allowed more pressures than the average rates of the players/teams they've played against. so during individual plays, they had more of them where the players like Parsons performed above their pre-snap rush probabilities than below. if that were because of exceptionally bad QB decisions jones would be more of an outlier in the sacks attributed to him and time to throw.
Next Gen Stats: Introduction to pressure probability - ( New Window )
That sure feels like a uselessly vague post.
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1 aspect of pressure i havent seen quantified but would suspect is that the more of it a qb gets the more diminishing returns there are on "clean". the clock is sped up for both qb and playcaller, more guys are being kept in to protect, receivers are running fewer downfield routes. when defenses are generating pressure every other play, the entire offense goes into every play expecting pressure.
This is a great point, and despite the challenge in validation, I suspect we can intuitively assume it to be true.
It does, IMO, beg the question of whether certain QBs (and/or playcallers) experience those diminishing returns on clean pockets more quickly (i.e., it takes fewer pressured reps to speed up the QB's clock) than others, and whether they experience those diminishing returns more dramatically (i.e., the QB's clock speeds up to a greater degree) than others.
This strikes me as the sort of response spectrum we might see from any set of people in any setting - for example, if 100 different people were all driving the same route and all got stuck in the same traffic, the time that it would take for those people to either reroute, experience road rage, or turn around and go home, or any other response, would vary from one person to the next.
So we can accept that the traffic is outside of their control, but only some of the group will respond by rerouting to their destination, while others will respond in ways that do not help them reach their destination. And even among the rerouting subset, there will be a range of different amounts of time that must lapse before considering a new route, which will impact what alternative routes are available to them.
mostly agree with this. as i drill down on more new stats the more i see little signatures with different players. which makes sense because everyone's brain processes things differently especially when we are talking about instinctual split second judgements. there's a reason why there are only 10-15 quality NFL QBs on the planet at any given point in time and all of them are good/bad at different things.
when we look at other players of teams we aren't as emotionally invested in it is easier. here's an example with russell wilson, who may be the only qb in the nfl getting as much hate as a nyg qb without being one. he's been under pressure almost as much as jones this year and his numbers under pressure are probably the best i've seen. his y/a are actually higher under pressure and he's thrown 2 more passes under pressure than not. the broncos have been awful this year but not because of russ (and not unlike eli he didnt get to 2 sbs by accident).
Eric, I think you’re building to a really big set of blog posts. I’ll make sure to get plenty of rest the night before I read them.
I certainly don't think Jones is any special talent as a thrower. But what we are seeing - again - is that he needs his environment to be very clean or else he simply can't produce anything.
I don't think Jones is playing well, but it doesn't take a deep dive into Eric's #s to confirm the OL isn't functioning well either. The eye test should satisfy most of that discussion.
What I have always wondered about Jones is his ability to get out of a play and into a better play based on coverage. A really good QB - like Peyton Manning was a savant - has the ability to dictate what the offense is going to do to offset a coverage. My instincts tell me Jones is an amateur in that phase of the game.
you are using the stat in the wrong way. look at the 2022 full year numbers in my 11:01 post and patrick mahomes was at 21% - which was essentially tied with his LT and RT for most pressures. 5% higher than jones' 16% last year and this year. mahomes was pressured 241 times last year, jones 242, 3rd and 4th most respectively so this is a pretty apples/apples comparison over a full year sample size (though mahomes played 2 more games).
and patrick mahomes was responsible for a lot more of his pressures than daniel jones.
do you think that's because patrick mahomes had "worse" pocket presence than daniel jones and 3rd worst in the nfl among starting qbs by responsibility%?
or do you think that's more likely related to his play style of being very good at and very willing to extend plays? this is the point i just agreed with you on in your prior post that every qb has a slightly different 'signature' on how they play and a lot of these stats get easily misrepresented (like the time to throw post earlier this week that misunderstood more time = better and less time = worse).
Eric, I think you’re building to a really big set of blog posts. I’ll make sure to get plenty of rest the night before I read them.
that's a good idea - i did a post on the nyg after 3 weeks, at whatever the next interval is that's worth doing another one hopefully the defense and OL have turned things around to enough of an extent that comparing pressure percentages in wins/losses isn't as morbidly depressing as it is so far.
I'm posing a broader question if Jones over his career has contributed an outsized percentage of pressure he's faced.
Can you pull down the percentage of pressures he's caused for his career?
Eric, I think you’re building to a really big set of blog posts. I’ll make sure to get plenty of rest the night before I read them.
Payton has done good work with Wilson. A big difference is not only the scheme, but Payton can build OLs, and he looks to have done some good work in that regard (so far).
Getting McGlinchey and Powers seem like good, smart signings.
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1 aspect of pressure i havent seen quantified but would suspect is that the more of it a qb gets the more diminishing returns there are on "clean". the clock is sped up for both qb and playcaller, more guys are being kept in to protect, receivers are running fewer downfield routes. when defenses are generating pressure every other play, the entire offense goes into every play expecting pressure.
This is a great point, and despite the challenge in validation, I suspect we can intuitively assume it to be true.
It does, IMO, beg the question of whether certain QBs (and/or playcallers) experience those diminishing returns on clean pockets more quickly (i.e., it takes fewer pressured reps to speed up the QB's clock) than others, and whether they experience those diminishing returns more dramatically (i.e., the QB's clock speeds up to a greater degree) than others.
This strikes me as the sort of response spectrum we might see from any set of people in any setting - for example, if 100 different people were all driving the same route and all got stuck in the same traffic, the time that it would take for those people to either reroute, experience road rage, or turn around and go home, or any other response, would vary from one person to the next.
So we can accept that the traffic is outside of their control, but only some of the group will respond by rerouting to their destination, while others will respond in ways that do not help them reach their destination. And even among the rerouting subset, there will be a range of different amounts of time that must lapse before considering a new route, which will impact what alternative routes are available to them.
Sage wisdom. No team has been more stuck in traffic than this team over the past decade. Might have been nice if the Giants considered this wisdom six months ago before committing nearly twenty percent of the cap to a driver who has difficulty discerning traffic, let alone effectively rerouting from it.
Better still, had the Giants considered this in April 2019, perhaps we could have avoided a six year franchise crushing car wreck that has cost a GM and two head coaches their jobs. There's a light at the end of the tunnel though coming Monday night. Hopefully our grossly overpaid driver's gps is working for once so as to avoid a season ending head on train collision.
I'm posing a broader question if Jones over his career has contributed an outsized percentage of pressure he's faced.
Can you pull down the percentage of pressures he's caused for his career?
i dont think they have a career number but all the numbers under this regime are in this thread.
my guess from eyeballing eli's career earlier today is each different system the numbers are going to be different but ill go double check. if you read my posts to GD, i think a lot of these numbers are a function of play style impacted by the full environment - player style, scheme, supporting cast. running QBs tend to create more pressures than pocket qbs which makes sense since they are trying to extend plays more. obviously a worse ol is going to create more pressures than a better one.
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And the numbers show that DJ is responsible for 1/6 of the pressures, on balance. So by those numbers, doesn’t that suggest that DJ is just as responsible for his own pressures as any individual lineman is? If evenly distributed, all 6 should have equal 16.7 rates. That's exactly where DJ's rate resides, right? So what am I missing?
you are using the stat in the wrong way. look at the 2022 full year numbers in my 11:01 post and patrick mahomes was at 21% - which was essentially tied with his LT and RT for most pressures. 5% higher than jones' 16% last year and this year. mahomes was pressured 241 times last year, jones 242, 3rd and 4th most respectively so this is a pretty apples/apples comparison over a full year sample size (though mahomes played 2 more games).
and patrick mahomes was responsible for a lot more of his pressures than daniel jones.
do you think that's because patrick mahomes had "worse" pocket presence than daniel jones and 3rd worst in the nfl among starting qbs by responsibility%?
or do you think that's more likely related to his play style of being very good at and very willing to extend plays? this is the point i just agreed with you on in your prior post that every qb has a slightly different 'signature' on how they play and a lot of these stats get easily misrepresented (like the time to throw post earlier this week that misunderstood more time = better and less time = worse).
Good point. I'm just trying to understand the proper baseline for distribution. I also recognize that the greater priority is reducing the counting stat (aggregate pressures) rather than optimizing the distribution rate.
I guess I'm just saying that I don't necessarily see DJ's owned pressure rate as validation that he bears no (or less) responsibility for allowing pressure to occur. And to the extent that his share of the distribution is tied to the Giants' relatively high pressure rate as a team, would that suggest that even if the Giants' OL was perfectly average across all OL metrics, that DJ's style of play (or processing speed, or play design, whatever) would still result in a higher than average pressure rate as a team?
What I mean by that is, if DJ has been pressured 48 times so far, and 16.7% are attributable directly to him, then those 8 pressures might have happened regardless of the OL. If the OL were to cut their 40 pressures in half, then doesn’t that imply that DJ would own 28.5% of the reduced aggregate pressures?
Said another way, is DJ's owned pressure rate depressed somewhat by the largeness of the denominator rather than the smallness of the numerator? This is probably also an area where your diminishing returns theory above would apply as well, to be fair.
And point taken on Mahomes, but no one seems to be claiming that he possesses some latent excellence that is otherwise being withheld by defensive pressure. If DJ had a couple of Lombardis and was the reigning SB MVP, we probably aren't engaging in this discussion ourselves, right?
I guess that makes me oddly grateful for the struggles if only to give us a reason to have a really good discussion.
here are his pressure responsibility %'s by year:
2023 - 16.7% (team worst 31% RG, Glowinski/Mckethan)
2022 - 16.7% (team worst 26% RT, Neal)
2021 - 8.5% (team worst 25% LG, Skura)
2020 - 9.4% (team worst 31% LT, Thomas)
2019 - 16.1% (team worst 28% LT, Solder)
in the judge regime jones was responsible for half as many pressures as he has been with this regime - which i would speculate are because of the judge offenses being so risk averse. jones ran less, extended plays less, threw the ball away quickly more.
under shurmur and daboll he has been responsible for more of his pressures, but also obviously made a lot more plays.
in each year he was among the most pressured QBs per game.
Good point. I'm just trying to understand the proper baseline for distribution. I also recognize that the greater priority is reducing the counting stat (aggregate pressures) rather than optimizing the distribution rate.
my belief on the best baselines would be to look at players who play the most similar styles and then layer context with their situations. i.e. let's compare jones to the subset of other qbs who run as much as him which are:
fields
lamar
hurts
allen
fields has been pressured 45 times so not far behind jones but held the ball longer, and owns 22% of his pressures. this year he is probably the closest thing to a poster child of making a bad situation worse.
hurts has also struggled more this year than last - he has 33 pressures and he owns 27% of them. his highest OL is 21%. last year he was 26%. so hurts is kind of what you are describing in a QB who has a better OL and then gets hurt by owning more pressures because there's a smaller denominator even though he's "causing" probably a similar number of pressures as Jones is, just out of a smaller total pie of pressures.
lamar has only been pressured 22 times, and he is only responsible for 5% of them. a very high % of his pressures have turned into sacks (8). last year he was reponsible for 33% of his pressues. i havent watched much of baltimore this year but i suspect he is playing a lot less hero ball and there's some noise since they have a new OC. his comp% is +10% but also only 4 total tds in 3 games.
the player jones is most similar to is allen, which shouldnt be a big surprise since their offenses are the most similar. allen is responsible for 18% of his pressures this year and was 18% last year. this year he hasnt been pressured a ton but last year he was 4th most (jones was 5th most).
i dont draw a ton of conclusions re jones except that there's nothing about him that's an outlier - except that this year he's been pressured at a meaningfully higher rate.
@SharpFootball
Daniel Jones 2023 ranks:
#30 in EPA/att (-0.24)
#30 in YPA (6.0)
#28 in pass success rate (38%)
#32 in TD rate (1.8%)
#33 in TD:INT ratio (2:4)
#31 in explosive pass rate (11%)
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.
.
#3 in 2023 cash ($46,000,000)
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Warren Sharp
@SharpFootball
Daniel Jones 2023 ranks:
#30 in EPA/att (-0.24)
#30 in YPA (6.0)
#28 in pass success rate (38%)
#32 in TD rate (1.8%)
#33 in TD:INT ratio (2:4)
#31 in explosive pass rate (11%)
.
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#3 in 2023 cash ($46,000,000)
All his fault. With this surrounding cast he should be putting up MVP numbers.