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| Quote: |
| New York Giants quarterback Daniel Jones has seemingly been wearing a “kick me” sign since the moment he entered the NFL. Jones was booed by fans at the Giants’ 2019 draft party when he was announced as the sixth pick. He was called “trash” by Chicago Bears safety Jaquan Brisker the day he signed a four-year, $160 million extension with the Giants. And in the latest installment of Jones bashing, San Francisco 49ers defenders expressed disbelief about the quarterback’s salary, with one anonymous player calling it a “travesty.” |
Name a single person who said that. Gettleman hit on Thomas for one. He's an All-Pro level player, though slowed by injuries thus far this year.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
Again, Occam’s razor.
every asst coach ever hired comes in with a "good reputation", except maybe nathaniel hackett. that's a meaningless qualifier.
how many of them came in highly paid, in demand, or with any sort of track record of sustained success like a bill callahan or mike munchak or dante scarnechia? clearly that's a 0, and clearly the nyg havent been able to identify quality coaches with non-obvious resumes like the eagles did with stoutland.
inheriting an established elite unit with tyron smith and zack martin is a much different thing than rebuilding an OL from scratch, which is what this organization has tried to do and failed at 4 or 5 different times since 2010-11.
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
When you run the ball 11 times for 29 yards against SF it is going to be a tough day with how the Giants are built right now. Just like Dallas and Dak had a rough day against SF the last two playoff seasons.
You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
6 McCants
2013
1 Pugh
7 Herman
2014
2 Richburg
2015
1 Flowers
7 Hart
2016
The OL is so damn good, don't need anyone else
2017
7 Bisnowaty - a 7th rounder is all the OL investment the Giants need in two years apparently
2018
2 Hernandez
2019
7th rounder Asafo only, despite 10 picks
2020
1 Thomas
3 Peart
2021
no OL, everything is great apparently
That's some poor shit on the whole. For the most part, I do like the investment Schoen has made the last two years, but that's an awful lot of young guys to implement at once. Basically 3 rookies and Neal, as the NC guys were injured much of the year
I suspect it is generally the same people, but who knows.
The Arm chair GMs don't help the situation.
"When you don't know that you don't know, it's a lot different than when you do know that you don't know." -Tuna
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
You watched the footage of Glowinski against the Cowboys.... right?
Our OL has been shit since 2011 ended. We wasted Eli's prime years because of it.
Flaherty was the offensive line coach during the Giants best offensive line years and continued to work in the league after he left in 2015. It’s doubtful he just became a bum after 2012.
My point is simply the context of Jones or Kerry Collins getting criticism is a lot different than Simms or Eli.
251 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.36 TD/G (Pass and rush)
1.07 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player Y through 4 years:
233 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.44 TD/G (Pass and rush)
0.94 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player X is Jones, Player Y is Mitch Trubisky.
I am not saying that Jones has the same talent level as Trubisky, but over his first 4 years, he produced very similarly to him. We can all debate why and talk with more nuance, but that is headline over the first 4 years. He can silence some of this criticism by just producing more than Mitch Trubisky did with the Bears
251 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.36 TD/G (Pass and rush)
1.07 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player Y through 4 years:
233 Y/G (Pass and rush)
1.44 TD/G (Pass and rush)
0.94 TO/G
2 Playoff Games - 538 Tot Yards, 2 Tot TD, 1 Int
Player X is Jones, Player Y is Mitch Trubisky.
I am not saying that Jones has the same talent level as Trubisky, but over his first 4 years, he produced very similarly to him. We can all debate why and talk with more nuance, but that is headline over the first 4 years. He can silence some of this criticism by just producing more than Mitch Trubisky did with the Bears
Oof, got Mitch's Playoff stats wrong. Should be 521 Yards 2 TD, 0 Int
Flaherty was the offensive line coach during the Giants best offensive line years and continued to work in the league after he left in 2015. It’s doubtful he just became a bum after 2012.
dallas couldnt have "gotten anyone" to coach their OL any more than the giants could hire jeff stoutland away from the eagles or callahan from the browns until their contracts expire. the handful of good coaches are almost always under contract somewhere else with the rest of the league recycling guys like solari and flaherty with lengthy resumes or taking chances on younger guys like columbo. how meaningful was dallas' choice on columbo? how meaningful is it that buffalo allowed bobby johnson to come here but blocked others?
solari and flaherty at least had/have legitimate NFL resumes but neither has been the full time ol coach here in half a decade. the last 3 before bobby johnson havent coached another in the NFL since. columbo and hunter i believe are both out of coaching.
from a decade of complete ineptitude you are cherry picking insignificant data points like maybe there was a good 5 minute stretch during the first act of Our American Cousin.
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Are the other moves just a case of bad GMing? Glowinski were solid players before they came here but is now unplayable.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
Again you guys are missing the point. Daniel Jones’ weaknesses make the offense easier to defend which also makes it tougher for a non elite offensive line to be successful. Jones isn’t the reason Glowinski got benched, or the sole reason the oline is at the bottom of the league but he also doesn’t do enough to make their lives easier as well. The QB absolutely has an influence on offensive line play and how the line succeeds.
Take Stroud for example. They’re missing three starters, have allowed as much pressure as the Giants but their PFF grades are higher than the Giants. Is it because their players are that much better? Not really. Stroud handles the pressure better. If Jones’ legs are neutralized he doesn’t have the processing speed to handle the pressure and goes into a shell that more often than not leads to a bad decision. That makes it a lot tougher on a non elite offensive line and leaves a razor thin margin in an era where defensive lineman are more freakish than ever.
Again, Jones isn’t why the offensive line sucks. They need to improve but Jones also needs to improve in the areas he’s deficient in. There’s very few very good to elite offensive lines in the league and most of them are an injury away from being average or worse. It’s an epidemic in the league and has been for a number of years, and it likely isn’t getting better any time soon. The way to navigate around it is with scheme and top level QB play.
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In comment 16224493 Gatorade Dunk said:
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
Last season, people were very worried that Jones stats were not good enough and the talked in extreme absolutes on Jones. All season, I kept suggesting that Jones could win a playoff game.
It happened.
We could win 2 playoff games this year or we could be settle in the basement.
I have hunch this team is going to be better than the basement. I have been wrong before, I could be wrong again.
When you run the ball 11 times for 29 yards against SF it is going to be a tough day with how the Giants are built right now. Just like Dallas and Dak had a rough day against SF the last two playoff seasons.
You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
Conversely, how much more difficult is the running game to execute when the defense isn't scared of the passing game?
I know you know this, LoS - too much of football is intertwined to just isolate any one element (including QB play, of course). So even your point about the running game, to the extent that it's valid on its face, could still (at least partially) be a reflection of the way that opponents view our passing game.
It's funny how yet again Jones is owed a better a system and some actual skill players.
There's no chance it's the common variable, right?
The Giants have played a total of 3 games this year. Anyone who thinks Kafka sucks all of a sudden isn’t a serious fan of the team.
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
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In comment 16224501 KDavies said:
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In comment 16224493 Gatorade Dunk said:
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and throw it underneath to a covered Barkley (resulting in a pick six) and wonder how anyone could blame the OL for the QB once again refusing to take a shot on a big play that's available to him.
So again, define "fine." I get the sense that what you call "fine" is probably too low of a standard. But I'm sure you know better than Sy.
I mean, what standards do we have for Barkley? Because he's covered, the ball should bounce off of him and into the opponents hands? He should have caught the ball.
Perfection is expected of Jones, incompetence is tolerated of others. It's Jones' fault the OL can't block. It's Jones' fault the receivers drop balls they should have caught
Barkley shouldn't have been thrown that ball. There was a receiver WIDE open down the left sideline (IIRC, it was Hyatt, but it may have been Hodgins). Jones was afraid to throw it. Eli would have thrown that ball 10 times out of 10. Jones throws it maybe once or twice.
Imperfection by Jones is widely accepted here, as long as his fanboys can find someone else to blame instead.
Anyone willing to spend a little time could make a fool of Eli making that throw 10 out of 10 times. Eli left plenty on the table, the best QB you can name doesn't see the open man sometimes. Pressure and play design have dramatic effect on QB targeting. Last season, I said we had to see the the entire season before we judged Jones. That patience was justified. In being consistent, I am suggesting we look at the entirety of the season before we die on any hill regarding Jones.
Last season, people were very worried that Jones stats were not good enough and the talked in extreme absolutes on Jones. All season, I kept suggesting that Jones could win a playoff game.
It happened.
We could win 2 playoff games this year or we could be settle in the basement.
I have hunch this team is going to be better than the basement. I have been wrong before, I could be wrong again.
Let me just clarify that I should have stated, "PRIME Eli makes that throw 10 times out of 10."
Maybe it's 9 out of 10. Maybe it's 8. But I feel very confident that Eli in his prime would pull the trigger on that hole shot more often than not, maybe more often than he should have. DJ does not attempt that throw most of the time - we saw it repeatedly last year too, even when many fans were lauding DJ's improvement. For all of the supposed similarities between Eli and DJ, this is one that couldn't be more different. Young, prime Eli had a more aggressive approach to playing QB than DJ appears to have. That's my view, anyway.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
You should rewatch week 2. He fantastic in the face of pressure.
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
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If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
LOL, this deserves a sticky.
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In comment 16224553 ajr2456 said:
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Are the other moves just a case of bad GMing? Glowinski were solid players before they came here but is now unplayable.
I find it hard to believe the Giants are just ignorant at picking offensive lineman for a decade and can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
what is so hard to believe about that?
mark glowinski is literally the perfect example of incompetence - bobby johnson coached him in IND. they paid him well. and will hernandez who they likely evaluated last year before he left for the league minimum to AZ has outplayed him and allowed half as many sacks since the start of last year.
is your theory that they benched glowinski for a guy who never played before because of daniel jones? was it jones fault that glowinski got beat on the first play off the bench for bredeson in week 2 against arizona?
why has mckethan played better than glowinski despite the same QB?
Again you guys are missing the point. Daniel Jones’ weaknesses make the offense easier to defend which also makes it tougher for a non elite offensive line to be successful. Jones isn’t the reason Glowinski got benched, or the sole reason the oline is at the bottom of the league but he also doesn’t do enough to make their lives easier as well. The QB absolutely has an influence on offensive line play and how the line succeeds.
Take Stroud for example. They’re missing three starters, have allowed as much pressure as the Giants but their PFF grades are higher than the Giants. Is it because their players are that much better? Not really. Stroud handles the pressure better. If Jones’ legs are neutralized he doesn’t have the processing speed to handle the pressure and goes into a shell that more often than not leads to a bad decision. That makes it a lot tougher on a non elite offensive line and leaves a razor thin margin in an era where defensive lineman are more freakish than ever.
Again, Jones isn’t why the offensive line sucks. They need to improve but Jones also needs to improve in the areas he’s deficient in. There’s very few very good to elite offensive lines in the league and most of them are an injury away from being average or worse. It’s an epidemic in the league and has been for a number of years, and it likely isn’t getting better any time soon. The way to navigate around it is with scheme and top level QB play.
there's some truth in what you said because that exact scenario played out for jordan love yesterday. he got pressured twice as much in 1 game vs det than the 3 prior games combined (1 of which was started by baktiari). quality OL play has gotten a lot harder to find over the same period of time the giants organization has been a categorical disaster. which was the new CBA practice rules 10 years ago. justin herbert wasn't a worse QB last year either, he just lost his LT.
the last sentence is fantasy though. the way to navigate an OL isn't wishing "top level QB play" into existence.
would jalen hurts produce top level qb play without a top ol?
how much money and draft picks have the chiefs spent on orlando brown, joe thuney, jawan taylor, donovan smith? trey smith and creed humphrey were pretty good draft picks werent they?
in the chicken or egg of QB/OL i'd argue the OL side because teams like SF, DET, DAL, PHI have shown that if you get the OL right, everything else can run smoother for as long as you sustain quality OL play. finding a pat mahomes or joe burrow is almost impossible. only a few of those guys come along every decade and most of the time they 1st overall picks. KC is probably the best org since hiring Reid and they've pursued both while at times still winning 10+ games with only 1 or the other.
[quote] If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you. [/quote
+1.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
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Stroud looks pretty good so far, but I don't see how in your right mind you can equate the pressure he has been under vs Jones through the 1st three games. It hasn't been close. Probably because of the fact that we played SF and Dallas, lol. And when he has had pressure he hasn't been good at feeling it leading to a couple of sack fumbles.
You should rewatch week 2. He fantastic in the face of pressure.
I didn't see much of that game, although I did see the sack fumble. More of the Ravens and the Jags. The guys I deal with in Houston for work, well actually just the one guy I talk football with is liking him so far but told me he is worried about the fumbling.
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
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You are also going to have a hard time running the option game with your QB on fronts like that. Best to have a OL/scheme that gets production from the backs between the tackles imv. Then everything else will open up.
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
Many teams go years cycling through players at a particular position without finding one that is competent. Until the Giants can provide at least an average pass protecting OL it is hard to know what kind of QB he will become.
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
So you mentioned DJ's college tape but that had nothing to do with your point because you also haven't watched it and can't answer a question about it?
Maybe this is another one of your super funny jokes!
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The famous chicken or the egg debate :)
And no - the win in Minn is not "something".
Consistency is king.
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In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Tackle: 21st (Thomas extension hasn’t kicked in)
Center: 31st
How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
I am not a DJ hater...unless the definition of a DJ hater is someone that never says anything negative ever about DJ...which would then indeed make me a hater.
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In comment 16224615 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
So you mentioned DJ's college tape but that had nothing to do with your point because you also haven't watched it and can't answer a question about it?
Maybe this is another one of your super funny jokes!
It's pretty clear. The Giants scouted both Jones and Haskins and determined that Jones was the better QB. Those who ripped for doing so and made slanderous accusations of the Giants being racism were clearly wrong, no? Or are you going to take the position that Haskins is better than Jones?
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.