New York Giants quarterback Daniel Jones has seemingly been wearing a “kick me” sign since the moment he entered the NFL.
Jones was booed by fans at the Giants’ 2019 draft party when he was announced as the sixth pick. He was called “trash” by Chicago Bears safety Jaquan Brisker the day he signed a four-year, $160 million extension with the Giants. And in the latest installment of Jones bashing, San Francisco 49ers defenders expressed disbelief about the quarterback’s salary, with one anonymous player calling it a “travesty.”
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
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In comment 16224622 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Christ almighty. So now the OL is fine and the roster was fine when Schoen took over? The revisitionist history to shit on Jones is beyond comical.
The one good thing that Gettleman did right was hit on high draft picks for the most part. Jones was a hit. Thomas and Lawrence were huge hits. Barkley was a hit talent wise, though agreed I would have traded down.
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The Chiefs rankings based on 2023 cap dollars at each oline position.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.
This is my viewpoint as well.
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How do you define "gets production from the backs between the tackles?"
I have told you this before. If you can't grasp basic concepts I can't help you.
I believe you started a thread on "inside/outside" rushing. Maybe you can see if that post has some answers for you.
My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
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The Chiefs rankings based on 2023 cap dollars at each oline position.
tackle: 24th
Guard: 5th
Center 28th
They’re invested heavily in basically one player. Their rankings for 2022 and 2021:
2022:
Guard: 10th
Tackle: 8th
Center 28th
2021:
Guard: 13th
Tackle: 32nd
Center: 20th
they traded a first round pick for brown in 2021 and then tagged him in 2022 after being unable to extend him. then signed taylor to a 20m contract in 2023. the fact that brown was in the last year of a rookie deal when they got him is irrelevant.
andy reid has always invested in OL first runyan was the first big FA he signed in philly. eric fisher was his first draft pick in KC and a big part of that team getting back to double digit wins with alex smith before mahomes. as soon as fisher moved on after 2020 they went out and got brown. while they had brown they added thuney for big money.
mahomes is obviously the best QB of this generation, specifically at seeing the rush and making plays, coached by a future hall of famer, and yet they've prioritze spending 20m+ on multiple OL while letting tyreek hill walk out the door.
why? because when the OL is clusterf*ck, as it was when they only scored 9 points in the super bowl they lost against tampa, there is very little even patrick mahomes can do.
Bingo!
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
Cool. Help me understand football better. Can you give an example of a team and year?
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My apologies for not remembering and/or not being able to grasp what you previously shared.
Maybe you can point us to an example of a team/year that showcases this type of rushing?
You're the only one who asked. Anyone who understands football wouldn't have to ask that question.
Cool. Help me understand football better. Can you give an example of a team and year?
Same as before. Giants 2005-10. Dallas anytime after 2014. Eagles anytime after 2016.
I understand you are not the brightest individual but.....
Speaking of repeating things, you never seem to answer my question: what were your previous handles?
How did Mahomes only score 9 points in the biggest game of the year? Why did he make the OL perform well the rest of the season, but stop waving his magic wand to make them perform well in the biggest game of the year?
Or maybe, just maybe, are offensive linemen a bit responsible for their own performance? And maybe, just maybe, is the front office responsible for investing in an OL to protect their QB?
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
I never even remotely suggested race.
I merely asked what was so special about Jones at Duke.
Either you can't answer because there is no answer or you struggle with comprehension. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can't answer because there is none.
If so, I'm still all ears...
Same as before. Giants 2005-10. Dallas anytime after 2014. Eagles anytime after 2016.
I understand you are not the brightest individual but.....
So for instance the 2022 Eagles would be a good example of what you're describing -- getting yards from their backs between the tackles?
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
The Giants haven’t invested in Oline?
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In comment 16224615 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16224322 KDavies said:
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Giants organization was called racist by talking heads for drafting Jones. Some people will never get that narrative out of their head.
Most of the people commenting on Jones then didn't watch his college game tape.
Why do you say that people commenting on Jones pre-draft didn't watch his play at Duke?
Are you suggesting Jones was doing something special at Duke that these people were missing? If so, where was this special showing up?
Yes, they completely missed on Jones. Haskins busted. Jones got a 2nd contract making $40 million a year. But go ahead, believe it was racism that inspired the Giants to pick Jones over Haskins.
I never even remotely suggested race.
I merely asked what was so special about Jones at Duke.
Either you can't answer because there is no answer or you struggle with comprehension. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you can't answer because there is none.
If so, I'm still all ears...
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
Can't leave out Veach. He's turned into an outstanding talent evaluator.
In comment 16224608 christian said:
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In comment 16224599 ryanmkeane said:
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If any of you actually think Jones was going to look awesome on a short week against the best team in football without his LT and best skill player then I’m not sure what to tell you.
You're never sure what to tell us, but that never stops you.
LOL, this deserves a sticky.
Jones has been pressured 27 times in dropbacks in under 2 seconds.
The OL sucks people. It’s been the constant variable since 2011.
Let’s say the same over and over again about Jones.
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
We shouldnt point out individual games - yet you continue to use one game by Stroud where 70% of his yards came in garbage time on why Jones hurts his OL. Haha Good work!
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And maybe, just maybe, is the front office responsible for investing in an OL to protect their QB?
The Giants haven’t invested in Oline?
posted earlier this thread:
2012 4 Mosley
6 McCants
2013
1 Pugh
7 Herman
2014
2 Richburg
2015
1 Flowers
7 Hart
2016
The OL is so damn good, don't need anyone else
2017
7 Bisnowaty - a 7th rounder is all the OL investment the Giants need in two years apparently
2018
2 Hernandez
2019
7th rounder Asafo only, despite 10 picks
2020
1 Thomas
3 Peart
2021
no OL, everything is great apparently
That's some poor shit on the whole. For the most part, I do like the investment Schoen has made the last two years, but that's an awful lot of young guys to implement at once. Basically 3 rookies and Neal, as the NC guys were injured much of the year.
So coming into Schoen's reign, the last 7 years included 4 picks higher than the 7th round: two of those: Peart and Flowers were complete busts (though Flowers turned out to be not as bad at G). The 3rd, Hernandez, was not signed to a 2nd contract.
That leaves 1 other guy: Thomas. And that's what Schoen inherited: an OL with Thomas and not much else. Again, Schoen has invested in the 2 NC guys, Neal, and JMS. But that is way too much youth to implement in the OL at one time.
So, fuck no. The Giants have not invested enough in the OL. And that is a large part of why their OL has been shit.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
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Every player has off days. That same oline that looked so bad in that game allowed Mahomes to throw for 4700 yards, 38 tds and the second highest QBR of his career.
Feel free to answer the actual question in the post.
We shouldnt point out individual games - yet you continue to use one game by Stroud where 70% of his yards came in garbage time on why Jones hurts his OL. Haha Good work!
I’ve pointed to three games of JUST his performance under pressure. I’m sorry that you have reading problems .
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Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
And you are one of the geniuses who just look at stats, think the Giants must draft Haskins, and take no consideration for the players around him. I don't know if you follow college football much, but Ohio State is a bit of a better football program than Duke.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
Watch the tape. Same thing as what he is now, pretty much. An extemely athletic QB who did well without much around on him. Not too hard to watch his college tape and dream on him. Apparently it was enough for one GM to draft him at #6 overall, and the next GM to give him a $40 million contract.
Right now the Jones contract compensates him as an average/above QB.
So, you are correct. Jones was an average QB at Duke - yes, a good athlete - who was rewarded by Gettleman as the 6th pick in the draft.
In comment 16224648 KDavies said:
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In comment 16224631 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224622 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16224617 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16224607 Dnew15 said:
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"At the end of the day" in order to be considered a legit NFL QB you've got to do one of the two things:
1.) Put up monster numbers in the stat column
OR
2.) Win something
In 5 years - DJ is 0 for 2.
What's "something"? He made the playoffs with one of the worst rosters in the league and won a road playoff game.
No one ever answers this question: what made it one of the worst rosters in the league, and why is it assumed that DJ won in spite of the roster and not vice versa?
The team had the worst record in the NFL over the previous 5 years, and the prior gm left almost no cap space to add FA's. They were only able to add a few low cost players and rookies. The QB doesn't get all of the credit for the success but he gets a lot of it.
The QB had that record too.
What makes you certain that the QB won in spite of the roster and not vice versa? Seems like the only thing you can say to support your view is that you want it to be that way.
The previous GM who built that shitty roster and left the current GM with almost no cap space is also the one who hand-selected DJ.
What are the odds that the one day that the sun shined on that dog's ass was April 25, 2019?
Christ almighty. So now the OL is fine and the roster was fine when Schoen took over? The revisitionist history to shit on Jones is beyond comical.
The one good thing that Gettleman did right was hit on high draft picks for the most part. Jones was a hit. Thomas and Lawrence were huge hits. Barkley was a hit talent wise, though agreed I would have traded down.
8 years of the same excuses. Daniel Jones ACC rank in passing yards his college career: 9,8,7.
In touchdowns: 9, 9, 5
What did he do so well in college?
And you are one of the geniuses who just look at stats, think the Giants must draft Haskins, and take no consideration for the players around him. I don't know if you follow college football much, but Ohio State is a bit of a better football program than Duke.
Who was Kurt Benkert throwing to at UVA? Or Jerod Evans at Virginia Tech? Or Eric Dungey at Syracuse? Or Peterman at Pitt?
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Jones isn't a great player. And when you are a lottery pick, that's the expectation - be something special.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
He may have not been pressured much against Jacksonville but when he was he was fantastic. Feel free to keep being wrong
Stroud vs pressure - ( New Window )
Some more great insight. Lol
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And you continually say “Colts” game.
You won’t admit you’re wrong. So I’ll stop wasting my time. The insults don’t stop from the select few who are never wrong on this board… haha
He may have not been pressured much against Jacksonville but when he was he was fantastic. Feel free to keep being wrong Stroud vs pressure - ( New Window )
That’s against the blitz. Not being pressured. Little bit of difference - lol
Some more great insight. Lol
Reading is hard I guess. Were you able to read from your other account?
The result 64% completion, 242 yards, 5.5 YPA, 0 INT
In Week 2, Stroud was pressured on 35% of his attempts and hit 9 times (6 sacks), the #11 highest pressure rate.
The result 64% completion, 384 yards, 2 tds
Play 3. Holds the ball for 5 seconds. Gain 3 yards.
2. Not a soul near stroud.
1. Not a soul near stroud again.
Thanks for pointing out what a great OL looks like and wide open receivers can do for a QB.
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
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In comment 16224477 bw in dc said:
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Jones isn't a great player. And when you are a lottery pick, that's the expectation - be something special.
Jones continues to float between JAG and very solid.
It's just very hard to win in the NFL with that profile at QB...
As per usual BW, spot on. I think that's what it boils down to. He's clearly a starting qb in this league. But where he was drafted and some of the qbs we've seen come out in a similar spot, he just really isn't what you expect a guy draft at 6 to be. Or at least hes not that in any consistent fashion.
The way to stay relevant and a consistent playoff contender in this league is through top tier qb play and head coaching combo. Hard to win with middling qb play unless you have elite play at other positions.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
It's definitely a crapshoot. And while we wanted DJ to be exceptional for his draft slot - he's not in the top rung of QBs. Instead, he's borderline Top 10 depending on how things go. 2023 season is far from over.
And as someone said above, his contract for a player on his second at such a premium position, he's not being paid elite money. And the Giants can get out of it in two years, if they decide to go in another direction which was always the Plan B.
Phil Simms got crapped on and so did Eli. People hate NY sports that aren't from NY, I think that's a given. And the QB is an easy target always.
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Played well.
Some more great insight. Lol
Reading is hard I guess. Were you able to read from your other account?
Insults insults insults. Usually a last resort for a bully who can’t handle criticism.
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
The link was about the written text; not the video.
Explain his stats the first two weeks? I know your retort is going to be garbage time against the colts.
Where are Jones’ garbage time stats?
you are looking at bad or wrong data. this year, by average AAV spent per rostered lineman the giants are 18th in OL spending and the Chiefs are 10th. the giants number is obviously juiced by their highest paid OL Andrew Thomas, who has been hurt, and to a lesser extent their 2nd highest paid mark glowinski, who got benched. aav is a much better metric to use for both rookie contracts and veteran contracts alike because it removes any distortions from restructures, balloon years, and signing bonuses.
last year KC was 8th in the NFL, the NYG were 30th/32. which obviously makes sense for any team whose highest paid OL is mark glowinski.
if you go from spreadsheets to the actual results on the field it becomes clear how different each players OL has performed. if you want to say a QB has an impact on their sack totals i can buy that, but they dont control how often they get pressured in the first place. if you want to give a QB credit for "magic feet", isn't that skill only useful when pressured? in a clean pocket who needs magic feet? wink has made a career out of 'pressure busts pipes'.
this is % of drop backs under pressure:
2023 - jones 46%, mahomes 30%
2022 - jones 42%, mahomes 33%
in the 2020 super bowl when mahomes only scored 9 points and got picked off twice he was under pressure 55% of snaps. when kept clean in that game he was 17/23 for 192 yards. when pressured he was 9/26 for 78 yards.
last year against philly in the SB he was pressured just 35% of snaps, and that was with a high ankle. in clean pockets vs philly he was 17/18 for 144 yards and 3 tds. when pressured he was 4/9 for 38 yards. i would argue that keeping mahomes clean as often as they did against the philly pass rush was the key factor in winning that game. other than the hurts fumble for a bolton td.
if you look at the right stats, which i believe pressure% to be, you will see the trend that it very clearly makes any QB worse. against dallas jones was pressured 67% which i think was 1 of the highest recorded. against arizona it was just 29% and against SF is was back to 44%.
yesterday jordan love was pressured 47% and went 6/14 for 48 yards and 1 int. he was 17/22 for 198 yards in clean pocket.
tua has so far been the least pressured QB in football at just 21%.
by the way back to wink on the flip side, im pretty sure the NYG defensive pressure% on QBs they've faced so far this year is like 15% (16 pressures on 106 passing plays). so they have given every QB they played more pressure than the best single team has performed.
being 1 of the most pressured offenses and least pressuring defenses is not a good combination.
Poor rate throw per game this year
Jones:
15%
8.5%
16%
Stroud:
26%
35.5% (the vaunted Indy game)
19% (game where he was pressured 3 times - and had clean pockets as Ajr pointed out for us)
Damn these stats!
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He has resorted to using prestine pockets and wide open WRs to save face!
Those pressure numbers are STILL lower than pressure numbers Jones has faced per average.I know you ignored the 27 pressures of under 2 seconds for Jones. But I’m sure you will blame him for them as well.
The link was about the written text; not the video.
Explain his stats the first two weeks? I know your retort is going to be garbage time against the colts.
Where are Jones’ garbage time stats?
All you showed were stats against the blitz. And many times the blitz didn’t come home as evidence by the video. Guys were open by huge distances as shown I. The video against the blitz.
Again - explain the 27 pressures in under 2 seconds against Jones. Or how our starters at WR have the worst separation in the league.
I’ll be waiting…
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
Schoen signed Glowinski, obviously that hasn't really worked out. So he's 0-1 in the signings department for interior.
JMS seems like he could be a stalwart, possible pro bowl upside down the road but you never know, it's early.
McKethan seems like a guy they'd like to develop as a guard starter but the guy has played 2 games? Have to give it time with him. Ezeudu, another guy they'd obviously like to develop into a starter at LG possibly next year, but have to give it time.
Bottom line is, Neal obviously and JMS were high draft assets. They have to work out if we are going to solve this thing. And they have to develop mid round guards or find good guards in FA to compete with what we have going into 2024.
Poor rate throw per game this year
Jones:
15%
8.5%
16%
Stroud:
26%
35.5% (the vaunted Indy game)
19% (game where he was pressured 3 times - and had clean pockets as Ajr pointed out for us)
Damn these stats!
Jones stats down 20-0 count but Strouds don’t?
Where are Jones garbage time stats against San Fran and Dallas?
Stroud has been better vs pressure than Jones this year, the numbers and film prove it.