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| New York Giants quarterback Daniel Jones has seemingly been wearing a “kick me” sign since the moment he entered the NFL. Jones was booed by fans at the Giants’ 2019 draft party when he was announced as the sixth pick. He was called “trash” by Chicago Bears safety Jaquan Brisker the day he signed a four-year, $160 million extension with the Giants. And in the latest installment of Jones bashing, San Francisco 49ers defenders expressed disbelief about the quarterback’s salary, with one anonymous player calling it a “travesty.” |
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
And we shouldn’t count stats in a game where Jones came back and won?
My god. You’re having a really bad day!
Explain the 27 pressures in under 2 seconds and our WRs not getting open.
I’ll be waiting..
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Not boosted by two players as well? That data is 2023 cap dollars from sportrac.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
Thomas didn’t play in the Philly game last year? We like to focus on just three games this year but the theme over the last two years is that the oline is at its worst when the QB run game is non existent (Philly 2x, second Dallas game, Tennessee, Seattle, Baltimore). Teams know if they take away Jones’ legs, they don’t have to worry about the pass which puts more pressure on the oline and reduces their margin for error. Jones isn’t the main culprit for the olines poor play, but his limitations as a processor before the snap and during pressure exasperate the issue.
Part of the difference between the play between the Chiefs and Giants along the oline is that Jones is easy to defend. Put Mahomes behind the Giants oline and I’d wager the oline is in the mid 20s instead of 32nd.
And we shouldn’t count stats in a game where Jones came back and won?
My god. You’re having a really bad day!
You’re dismissing all of Strouds stats. Strouds stats don’t count because he was down a lot and didn’t win, despite his best effort. Jones stats count because he won. Got it.
No wonder why you needed a new account.
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Then why do you value Jones?
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
Is the question "does DJ play worse when pressured?" or is it even "do all QBs play worse when pressured?"
Because I think the question should be, at least in part, "is there anything about DJ's game that invites and/or causes more pressure than other QBs might face?"
I can acknowledge that defensive pressure tends to be at the root of DJ's struggles (when those occur). I'm just curious if there is anything that DJ might be doing to contribute to that pressure. Do teams defend him differently than they might defend another QB with a similar skill set?
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Stroud and Jones have the same number of wins this year. And both have fewer wins than you have BBI handles.
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In comment 16224722 ajr2456 said:
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Not boosted by two players as well? That data is 2023 cap dollars from sportrac.
I’ll ask again: Is the gap between the Chiefs and the Giants at evaluating Oline so large that one line is good and one is incompetent or does the fact that Mahomes’ feel for the position is light years ahead of Jones’ have an impact in how good the line looks?
the expensive players on the chiefs are actually playing. how hard is that to understand?
what difference does it make how much they spent on thomas if he hasn't been playing?
Thomas didn’t play in the Philly game last year? We like to focus on just three games this year but the theme over the last two years is that the oline is at its worst when the QB run game is non existent (Philly 2x, second Dallas game, Tennessee, Seattle, Baltimore). Teams know if they take away Jones’ legs, they don’t have to worry about the pass which puts more pressure on the oline and reduces their margin for error. Jones isn’t the main culprit for the olines poor play, but his limitations as a processor before the snap and during pressure exasperate the issue.
Part of the difference between the play between the Chiefs and Giants along the oline is that Jones is easy to defend. Put Mahomes behind the Giants oline and I’d wager the oline is in the mid 20s instead of 32nd.
at this point you are either trolling or just dodging to muddy the waters.
my comment about thomas' salary juicing the giants $ on the OL is simple - since he got his big contract he hasn't played. he took 1 healthy pass pro rep before hurting himself on the FG return.
you can say until you are blue in the face that the giants spend just as much as the chiefs on their OL but it's wrong any way you slice it. the chiefs $20m tackle has started all 3 games this year as has their $20m guard who was an all pro last year. the giants havent had an all pro on their OL since chris snee.
the chiefs had 3 pro bowlers on their OL last year. the last 3 giants to make the pro bowl are who? snee, ohara, diehl? you are literally out of your mind if you think the 2 OLs are comparable.
The Giants have invested a lot in the offensive line over 10 years. One constant is mediocre QB play. That absolutely has an effect on how the offensive line plays. How much of an impact can be up for debate, but it absolutely is an impact.
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
Bingo
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under pressure his y/a and comp% are almost exactly the same as jones.
in clean pockets he has been more productive, because he has gotten 25% more clean pockets (87 vs 64).
i havent seen any qb that doesn't get meaningfully worse when under pressure. which is why LT and EDGE are each considered premium positions.
Is the question "does DJ play worse when pressured?" or is it even "do all QBs play worse when pressured?"
Because I think the question should be, at least in part, "is there anything about DJ's game that invites and/or causes more pressure than other QBs might face?"
I can acknowledge that defensive pressure tends to be at the root of DJ's struggles (when those occur). I'm just curious if there is anything that DJ might be doing to contribute to that pressure. Do teams defend him differently than they might defend another QB with a similar skill set?
Just based on his mobility alone, you'd expect some edge contain and even a spy at times. But we see opposing edge defenders come flying down the the line from the edge position - that's not honest defense. And it's not just because of the Giants' OL, IMO, because edge contain should result in those defenders staying home at least sometimes, in order to keep DJ from scrambling (since his legs are a major strength of his). Instead, it often seems like teams are coming after DJ with no hesitation, and no honest stay-at-home ends. Something about that doesn't compute for me; other mobile QBs get contained, not flushed. Why are opponents defending DJ differently? For example, teams wouldn't (and don't) defend Hurts that way, IMO.
So my question remains, is there something about DJ's style of play that results in opponents disregarding other areas of the game in order to pressure DJ and is there anything that he could do better to preclude some of the pressure (not simply to overcome it)?
I just don't think opponents are scared of him, and it comes through not only in the way that they defend him, but also in the way that they talk about him as a threat (or lack thereof).
the bold is exactly the point - in my experience since the stats have become publicly available ALL QBs are worse under pressure. any time ive looked to see something anecdotally the numbers have supported that. And obvious logic supports it too. Tom Brady was an all time QB who knew how to beat the blitz but when he was pressured against the NYG he got worse. Same with Joe Montana. This is (was?) a fundamentally accepted truism if people step back from trying to big brain it. The new metrics point out only what was previously obvious just not as quantified. here is aaron rodgers in his mvp season 2 years ago, he was a notorious 'beat the blitz' guy and the numbers back that up - but not every blitz becomes a pressure and when pressured he was clearly a much different player than when he wasn't.
I think the majority of your theory above is also big braining something simple. The Giants OL hasn't protected well in a decade. How many twists have we seen interior OL not communicate? how many times has shane lemiuex posted literal 0 grades in pass pro? neal get taken advantage of? teams attack weaknesses and the giants OL has been a weakness for over a decade so whoever played QB for the giants would have been pressured more and therefore played worse than they played virtually anywhere else but especially teams like KC or dallas or philly or SF that have had very good OLs.
does jones do something that invites more pressure? yes, he plays for a team that hasn't had a offensive lineman in a pro bowl in over a decade and the only potential pro bowler on the roster got hurt on the first drive of the year.
Some of the QBs we've seen come out in a similar spot? How are the following guys doing?
Zack Wilson (drafted 2)
Trey Lance (3)
Justin Fields (11)
Kyler Murray (1)
Baker Mayfield (1)
Sam Darnold (3)
Josh Rosen (10)
Mitch Trubisky (2)
Carson Wentz (2)
Jameis Winston (1)
Marcus Mariota (2)
Blake Bortles (3)
And that's just the past ten years. Easy to focus on the Mahomeses of the world. But a shit ton of QBs have been drafted in the top 10 or so and been a hell of a lot worse.
Who in that list has Jones better than? Wilson? Fine. Rosen? Fine. Darnold? Fine.
You can't include Fields because Jones was granted four years to show he's above average. So, Fields should get two more years per the rules of the DJFC. And Lance deserves more time, too. Maybe Wilson should also be granted the same time period as well...
All of the others are questionable.
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More so than empty stats.
But I’m out. I proved my point and Eric did a great job backing his. Only so much you can do.
Have a good night. Looking forward to you showing us clean pockets and wide open WRs again. Haven’t seen it at all with the Giants this year. Good work!
Then why do you value Jones?
It’s not valuing Jones but the offense as a whole. I never claimed him to be a great QB. But there are very few sound voices when it comes to his play.
Has he missed throws? Absolutely
Has he missed open WRs? Absolutely
Does he bird dog WRs? Absolutely
However what is tough to decipher is to why? People can claim whatever they want as to the reasons why. But there are such huge factors that contribute to poor QB play. Some of the things I have pointed
1. He is the most pressured QB (and yes, some can be attributed to him)
2. His WRs are the worst in the NFL in getting separation.
3. He averages of being pressured 9 times per game in under 2 seconds.
4. His WRs are near the top of the league in drop percentage.
5. He is one of the highest sacked QBs in the league.
Put in those factors with Jones’s weaknesses - and you get a bad offense. But everything needs to be accounted for.
That’s why I don’t care the circumstances for Mahomes, Stroud, Burrow, or any other QB. IMO, there’s very little talent on the offense outside Thomas (who’s hurt) and Barkley (who’s one dimensional)
That’s my point. If Jones misses wide open guys with a decent pocket - he deserves the blame. I remmeber last week he had Walker coming across the middle where if he hit him in stride - it would have been a huge play. But he threw a little high and behind him causing an incompletion. People blamed Waller but it was a poor throw.
Smell any good farts lately, Chop?
2) His record in prime time is pitiful.
3) The Giants' overall record is pitiful.
Objectively, if he'd had the Dallas O-line and weapons, he'd have earned a lot more respect from fans. As for disrespect from NFL players, I'll bet at least 50% of them would trade their QBs for him. He's easy to make fun of because his public persona is so bland.
The Giants have invested a lot in the offensive line over 10 years. One constant is mediocre QB play. That absolutely has an effect on how the offensive line plays. How much of an impact can be up for debate, but it absolutely is an impact.
this is so stupidly backwards.
first off the QB play wasn't constantly mediocre all 10 years, Eli won his 2nd SB at age 30 and had at least 3 or 4 prime years following the SB wasted in large part by bad OL play.
but sure, let's blame the QBs for the fact that out of 100+ OL they didnt have a single one make the pro bowl in the last decade, not the guys that drafted/signed/evaluated/coached the OL who all got fired and are in most cases out of the nfl.
As for Jones he is not the problem with the team. He is part of the answer.
The Giants have the youngest starting lineup in the NFL. They need reps to succeed.
Anyone who thought that the Giants had a chance vs. SF is nuts.
Missing Thomas, Barkley, Ojulari, Bredeson, and playing on Thursday was a losing formula. Home teams on Thursday nights win 68% of the time.
Young teams are at a greater disadvantage playing with a short week.
The Dallas game was another difficult situation. The Giants were not prepared. Again they are young and needed reps.
The offense and defensive starters played (2) series.
That is fine if you are veteran team. The Giants were outplayed, out coached, and looked like a minor league team.
it confounds me how the OL was not prepared for stunts and overloads. Part of the problem is that the line was not set as a result there was no continuity.
The defense was worse. Winks defense requires coordination between all three levels. I was shocked to see how they misplayed simple plays. Misdirection was killing the team and they cannot tackle.
The other component about the Dallas game is that the Giants have to win the Special teams.
My hope and belief is that the Giants will improve as the season progresses.
But the caveat is that the coaching is able to bring this young team together.
& for both, it's simple:
1) A lot of people hated how Eli maneuvered his way to NY. And that he was Peyton's brother. And he came across as a goofy guy.
2) Jones...where he was picked. The amount of coin he got this past offseason that definitely was @ the expense of #26, which probably pisses a lot of fellow players off because Saquon strikes me as more a gregarious guy than DJ.
Nobody knows what Stroud is going to be. Guy has played 3 NFL games and throwing out stats to say he’s this is or that is idiotic. Yeah if he goes at this pace for the entire year he’ll be like the best rookie ever. Something tells me that will not be the case.
We even had posters debating whether it was good to move on from Jones and take Willis because of his incredible arm strength and athleticism.
Grading QBs in a single season based on 3 games is absolutely useless. Will Stroud be awesome? Possibly. But we’ve seen young QBs look great early on and then become terrible, or ones that look not so great and then be awesome.
Judging Stroud based on games against Indy, Jacksonville, and Baltimore is likely not the best sample size. Let’s see how he does against throughout the year.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
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Perfect example is Eli. Guy couldn’t complete a screen pass and was widely inaccurate his first 4 seasons. Turns out he becomes the best Giants QB ever and possibly a hall of famer.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
Perfect example of judging something before it becomes whole. Eli showed traits of being an awesome quarterback his first 4 seasons but as I said, was downright bad at times and literally could not throw the ball accurately to a guy right next to him. And then something clicked. And then he was probably a top 7-8 QB in the league for 6 years straight. Won two titles and then we struggled to put a team behind him for almost a decade.
So, Stroud might be playing well right now, 3 games into his career. But his team performance, defense, etc will determine his winning percentage.
Unless you are Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady, which Jones is not, you just can’t rise above poor play from other aspects of the team every single week. You can do it sometimes but not always.
I genuinely mean this as helpful advice, Ryan. You seem to be conflating two separate considerations: sample size (defined most clearly by the quantity of games played against different opponents), and strength of schedule (defined most clearly by the quality of opponents).
And it is apparent now when after 3 games, two against two of the best teams in the entire league when he had almost no time to throw, you guys are doing the same things yet again.
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In comment 16224796 ryanmkeane said:
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Perfect example is Eli. Guy couldn’t complete a screen pass and was widely inaccurate his first 4 seasons. Turns out he becomes the best Giants QB ever and possibly a hall of famer.
Perfect example of what?
Does anything in your description of Eli sound like a description of DJ?
Perfect example of judging something before it becomes whole. Eli showed traits of being an awesome quarterback his first 4 seasons but as I said, was downright bad at times and literally could not throw the ball accurately to a guy right next to him. And then something clicked. And then he was probably a top 7-8 QB in the league for 6 years straight. Won two titles and then we struggled to put a team behind him for almost a decade.
So, Stroud might be playing well right now, 3 games into his career. But his team performance, defense, etc will determine his winning percentage.
Unless you are Patrick Mahomes, Peyton Manning, or Tom Brady, which Jones is not, you just can’t rise above poor play from other aspects of the team every single week. You can do it sometimes but not always.
Ok, fair. But weren't you the one not even a month ago telling us that the book was closed on DJ and he had already proven himself to be a success?
This has always included you. It still includes you. And not only do you not have the ability to judge things realistically from a "football team" perspective, you also lack the acumen to pass judgment on other fans.
But while we're at it, let's talk about how you KNEW on the day that he was drafted that Kadarius Toney would be a bust. Did you let that play out? Or are you just emboldened to share that opinion because you thought it would earn you another precious victory lap?
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
I took heat on Jones every day for like 3 years because I defended him saying he was going to be really good. I still feel that way and never once have I said “the book is closed, Jones is great.”
I just don’t agree with this constant rush to judge the guy when he literally has never had a stable OL, coaching staff, weapons, OC, until basically until *hopefully* this year and beyond.
And yeah, sue me if I took a victory lap when he went into Minnesota and broke a NFL record to win a road playoff game when most of this board thought he would be off the team and we would go 3-14 last year.
As I said, how many games have we played this year and which teams have we lost to?
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But to answer the question of “why does Jones QB get so much hate?” It boils down to this:
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
The OL gave up 27 sacks which was tied for 4th best in the entire league. Which proves the point that with a pretty good OL, Eli was still very good.
Ok, that’s great. Agree. Not sure why we have to do this week after week.
The irony.
Why would Giants fans cheer for another team? Better yet, why do you think you’re the police of peoples thoughts and feelings?
You'd think he's a mediocre QB.
Don't lie.
But he's gotta bring his A game vs. Seattle. This is a crucial game for him & the team.
You keep saying this, but when have I ever left?
You love to tell people how they should feel or think instead of actually having a discussion. You provide no value to this board, and the opinion you think this board has of me, they actually have of you. If “most of the board” wants me gone they’re free to say so.
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In comment 16224804 ryanmkeane said:
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But to answer the question of “why does Jones QB get so much hate?” It boils down to this:
-Giants fans not being able to compartmentalize QB performance vs team performance, defense, OL, etc…
For example, Eli was awesome in 2015. The defense ranked 30th in all of football. And yet we have posters saying Eli was falling off a cliff at this point in his career. If they had an average defense, team probably wins the division easily. Washington won it at 9-7.
I think most people would agree that 2015 was one of Eli's best seasons in terms of individual performance. How was the OL that year?
The OL gave up 27 sacks which was tied for 4th best in the entire league. Which proves the point that with a pretty good OL, Eli was still very good.
Go look at who was on that OL. They weren't an especially good OL. Eli played in a way that minimized his exposure to that line, because that's what elite QBs do.
Unless you want to tell me that Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, Weston Richburg, Geoff Schwartz, and Marshall Newhouse were the second coming of the Suburbanites.
They were a meh OL that benefitted from a great QB at the helm.