But I’d kick the tires and see if Atlanta has any interest in Jones
That’s an off-season move if we draft a QB.
Jones is here until after next season no matter what. It's just a question if he's still starting at the end of 2024 or is a 40 million dollar clipboard holder
There's players with value who aren't part of the longterm plan, and this season is quickly slipping away.
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
or two trades, but I doubt it. The problem is what are those players even worth right now. And what are you going to do with that capital, draft more OL so they too can be shitty?
There's players with value who aren't part of the longterm plan, and this season is quickly slipping away.
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
Yep. A couple potential issues though. IMO, with as bad as the Giants have been, Schoen/Daboll should be on the hotseat. Do they do this, or try and "salvage" the season to give false hope to bring them back? If things continue like this, do you have lameducks making decisions on who to keep vs. who to trade?
lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
if they lose the next 2 (if, lol), to start trading players for picks. Some here are more in tune with the NFL than I am, but it's not like MLB and NHL (NBA too? I don't follow NBA) where bad teams unload their expiring contracts and better players for draft picks. I don't see the Giants unloading a ton of players, maybe one or two, but I just don't see a big firesale coming.
start shopping some vets that wknt be here next year and lay the groundwork fkr a Jones trade, wont happen this year but at least yiu can have some of those conversations
lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
Huh? They've had something north of a 70% roster turnover from the prior regime. I think higher. They aren't running it back with the same players.
There's players with value who aren't part of the longterm plan, and this season is quickly slipping away.
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
Yep. A couple potential issues though. IMO, with as bad as the Giants have been, Schoen/Daboll should be on the hotseat. Do they do this, or try and "salvage" the season to give false hope to bring them back? If things continue like this, do you have lameducks making decisions on who to keep vs. who to trade?
lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
Huh? They've had something north of a 70% roster turnover from the prior regime. I think higher. They aren't running it back with the same players.
Right? What did people want Schoen to do? Trade Thomas and Lawrence for picks that won't be nearly as good as them? C'mon
He looks so disinterested on the field
Call your friends up in Buffalo to see if they have interest in him.
Why wait…do it now!!!
Play the rookie or Flott.
lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
Huh? They've had something north of a 70% roster turnover from the prior regime. I think higher. They aren't running it back with the same players.
Right? What did people want Schoen to do? Trade Thomas and Lawrence for picks that won't be nearly as good as them? C'mon
I'm talking about the QB, the RB (whose potential replacement - who Schoen drafted - can't even see the field) and no.1 wide receiver. Building a good offense is critical to the modern NFL, since it's a more dependable unit year-over-year; can you really say Schoen has rebuilt it? A new paint job maybe.
(2) Even if they did, the cap hits are still prohibitive this year. We don't have the cap space.
1) that’s irrelevant to if it’s possible.
2) yes they can. Post June 1 trades and cuts are treated the same.
Quote:
When a player is released after June 1, the team is again relieved of paying that player’s base salary for the year in which he is released (and all future years) and the only amount that counts against the team’s Cap in that year is the player’s bonus proration for that year. The remaining unaccounted-for bonus pro-rations accelerate against the Cap in the following year.
Spotrac has the post June 1 trade numbers as the below:
2023 Dead Cap: $11,105,000
2024 Dead Cap: $33,315,000
2023 Cap Savings: $4,330,000
Unless spotrac and over the cap are way off (which it’s their business model, so both being this wrong is slim), you’re incorrect
There's players with value who aren't part of the longterm plan, and this season is quickly slipping away.
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
This is exactly correct, IMHO. The team needs to set up a board to review who they think are and are not part of the long term plan. I suspect a framework of this has long been in place, but there is probably some updates required. If they lose the next two, particularly if they're blown out, I'd move on from everyone not deemed part of the long term future to the greatest extent possible.
One, we are definitely heading off the rails at the moment.
Two, we have players who will want deals, have deals already that just are not part of the future and quite frankly have never been part of WINNING..
Players we should trade ASAP:
RB- Saquan Barkley
WR- Darius Slayton
S- Xavier McKinney
CB- Adore Jackson
Players that could be traded:
DT- Leonard Williams
LB- A. Ojulari
QB- Tyrod Taylor- if someone needs a backup.
S/Cb- D. Holmes - if anyone wants him.
G- Mark Glowinski - you never know.
RB- M. Brieda - if we don't move Barkley and even if we do..
any of the players people are listing. maybe a 3rd for saquon...maybe... Like it or not we are stuck with this team till they can cut some these guys in the offseason.
any of the players people are listing. maybe a 3rd for saquon...maybe... Like it or not we are stuck with this team till they can cut some these guys in the offseason.
But it makes the team worse than they already are, which helps. Even getting 5th rounders is fine.
Neal over Garrett Wilson will haunt me if Neal doesn't get better.
Cross and Wilson/Olave would have been better in the near and long term. Thibs still has hope, but those other positions are more important to our team.
Wilson will probably be a top 3 receiver in the league his entire career. It's a disaster to not take him there especially considering we had no weapons and Schoen has said he values WR in round 1.
Neal over Garrett Wilson will haunt me if Neal doesn't get better.
Neal made sense. But in hindsight, so did WR.
If someone wants to argue WR, the better argument, IMV, is missing on Pickens over Robinson.
At least Robinson was starting to show why we drafted him last year and a little last night. Get him the ball in space.
Questioning the Neal pick in hindsight is just wrong. It was shocking to most, including the Giants, that he fell to them at 7. He was at various times, predicted to go as high as #1. So, when you need OL and he's sitting there, it isn't a hard pick. The fact that he isn't working out doesn't mean it was the wrong pick.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
The Giants were bracing for a challenging start to the season. There's no way they could've envisioned this with just about everything they thought they'd do right go horribly wrong.
Sometimes you need a reset, and that's where they are.
Anything that may not have been on the table a month ago has entered the equation.
You think the Colts thought they were going to push Peyton Manning out the door?
Again, long way to go. But don't tell me what they thought they would do. Never thought they'd be in this position, but four games in, here they are.
They don't even know what they'll do. I won't pretend to know.
you guys are listing are not players that other teams are going to give anything for. I think Adoree Jackson makes the most sense. I don't think trading Barkley is worth it. You're selling low.
bw, I guess my point is, top 10 WR are usually dynamic talents. We've missed on top 10 OL a bunch.
I get it, but I'm a need drafter. IMV, we needed to address the bigger weakness. So, even if you had Wilson and Neal tied in terms of potential (Sy gave Neal an 87, Wilson an 85), the tiebreaker for me would still be OL.
Purging would be best for the long term benefit of the franchise...
Do you know how much cap space the Giants have right now? Look it up. There isn't $11 million in cap space on this team, especially when you consider they have to have around $5 million just to sign guys when others get injured.
you guys are listing are not players that other teams are going to give anything for. I think Adoree Jackson makes the most sense. I don't think trading Barkley is worth it. You're selling low.
Barkley is gone next offseason. Get something for him while you can.
First, the players who contracts expire at seasons end who I believe won't be on the roster in 2024.
Leonard Williams
Saquon Barkley
Adoree Jackson
Darnay Holmes
Xavier McKinney
*McKinney is the one question mark here. Ever since his hand injury he just hasn't been the same player, yet he is going to demand a big contract. Might be wise to trade him and get some value in return, instead of signing him to a multi-year deal.
The players who contracts expire after 2024 season who have a chance of being cut after this season...
Mark Glowinski
Darius Slayton
Azeez Ojulari
*Glowinski is 100% getting released at the end of this season, so if I'm the Giants I'm seeing if I can get maybe a late round pick for him. Azeez just can't stay healthy, but has pass rushing ability, so like Glowinski it wouldn't hurt to see if he has any value on the market. And Slayton's cap hit will be almost $8 million in 2024, and the Giants would save $7mil toward next year's cap if they trade him.
Do you know how much cap space the Giants have right now? Look it up. There isn't $11 million in cap space on this team, especially when you consider they have to have around $5 million just to sign guys when others get injured.
Eric simply go to the over the cap calculator, select 2023 and pick post 6/1 trade and compare it to selecting post 6/1 cut. The base salary guarantees and roster bonuses transfer with the trade, unlike with a cut. The only guarantees that they’re responsible for are bonuses already paid.
Quote:
With a trade, the future guarantees would simply transfer to the new team, leaving behind just the unallocated bonus cap as the current team's dead cap.
Only $36 million of the $82 million in guarantees are a signing bonus.
you guys are listing are not players that other teams are going to give anything for. I think Adoree Jackson makes the most sense. I don't think trading Barkley is worth it. You're selling low.
Barkley is gone next offseason. Get something for him while you can.
What are you going to get for him? He's hurt. Are you going to get a 5 or a 6? You'll get that anyway as a comp.
is trading for Jones. As far as the others players mentioned on this thread, I don't think any would net more than a fifth or sixth round pick, although Barkley might get a fourth.
here is a problem...
What percentage of teams would trade for Daniel Jones?
Answer - 0%
How far we’ve come from the offseason of there being a supposed robust market, huh?
The percentage is higher than zero, the risk becomes substantially lower with the Giants eating most of the signing bonus. It essentially becomes a one year deal.
They have cap space, Chubb just sustained a brutal knee injury, and we have a history working out deals with them. If CLE has a winning record at the deadline they make a ton of sense.
They have cap space, Chubb just sustained a brutal knee injury, and we have a history working out deals with them. If CLE has a winning record at the deadline they make a ton of sense.
There are no doubt a few teams that would be happy to have him. But I just don't believe anyone is giving anything close to a third for him this year.
After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
It’s not panic anymore. This team stinks and needs to strip it down to just the young players on cost effective deals .
RE: It's a truly historic draft class of QBS for 2024.
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
The team does suck.
Forget at a high level - name one thing it does at an average level?
Run the ball? No
Throw the ball? No
Stop the run? No
Stop the pass? No
Get sack? No
Get turnovers? No
Good special teams? bwahahahahaha
so what is the team even average at?
RE: RE: It's a truly historic draft class of QBS for 2024.
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
They believed in last years mirage, which has vanished in a hurry
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
It’s not “stripping it all down.” The players being discussed aren’t likely to be here next year regardless. Barkley is on the franchise tag with an injury history. Williams is in the last year of a bloated contract. Jackson is in the last year of a contract. None of these guys were likely coming back unless they had exceptional seasons.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
It’s not “stripping it all down.” The players being discussed aren’t likely to be here next year regardless. Barkley is on the franchise tag with an injury history. Williams is in the last year of a bloated contract. Jackson is in the last year of a contract. None of these guys were likely coming back unless they had exceptional seasons.
Exactly, this is the way well managed teams operate. Schoen and Co are on a short leash, I'd say they have 2-3 years tops. The wisest move is to firesale now and pray for the best draft picks possible in a historic draft for qbs, keep improving the lines and draft the best qb possible to have any hope for a future.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
No it doesn't. Cap hit this year would be $82 million. Next year it would be $69 million.
You kind of have to consider it. Clean slate and all.
No bud, the contract was actually smartly constructed as an incentive laden 2 year make it or break it deal. We get out with minimal losses after next year. Also, as some posters have pointed out, let DJ play behind the o line next year while a rookie learns and if the o line and rookie qb look up to the task bench Jones.
RE: RE: RE: It's a truly historic draft class of QBS for 2024.
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
They believed in last years mirage, which has vanished in a hurry
If they really believed then they would have given him a long term deal. The deal is really a 2 year make or break contract. He isn't making it, simply put
any of the players people are listing. maybe a 3rd for saquon...maybe... Like it or not we are stuck with this team till they can cut some these guys in the offseason.
Adoree could go for a 4th-6th, saquon for a 3rd-5th. This is as much about getting picks as it is about securing a higher draft slot in a historic draft for qbs. I'll be disappointed if Schoen isn't wise to this.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
I think some major changes need to be made but I think there are some guys from Schoen's first two drafts. Wan'Dale, Thibs, JMS, Banks, McFadden, Hyatt, and Bellinger have flashed. Perhaps too early to tell with Hopkins/Flott as well.
The OL/QB combo is so disfunctional right now that I think it drags down the evaluation of the entire team.
After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
RE: RE: You have to wait until after the 2024 season to move on from Jones
After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
Yes, he'll might on the roster in 24, but there's no way he'll be the presumed starter at this rate. Even from a pure team morale standpoint, it is bad business to be starting a guy who is playing among the worst in the league who is also earning the highest salary.
We need to do it with a QB rookie contract on the books. It also means that it’s very unlikely that Daboll gets fired after the 2024 season. I think he’ll have 4 years, which is good, because I still believe in him. I expect Wink to be the DC for the duration of this.
Another thing to look for is for an OC consultant to be brought in. I’ll be very curious to see who it is if it happens.
Two weeks from now, at 1-5 with the 8-2 finish needed to hold serve completely unrealistic, Schoen will be working the phones to accelerate filling 2024 holes. They're not likely even to consider firing Daboll but they're compelled to turn over every possible stone to set up a sink or swim 2024.
The next 2 weeks not only define the need but also the potential trade ammo.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
Schoen drafted a corner who is putting up a pro bowl type season. JMS looks the part barring this injury. Hyatt is obviously talented but it's going to take time with the way our OL is to really get him going. Hawkins is a starter if he can put it together.
The key is developing the 2022 class. Robinson is good. We know that. The ACL injury really set him back but the guy makes plays in every single game. We need Thibodeaux to play like last night more often. Neal has been a disaster.
Have to give draft classes time. Saying Schoen's picks aren't good after half of them have played 4 games is stupid.
I don’t agree with that deadline for Daboll, HBart
You select a 1st round QB and you want some continuity around him. Daboll has already developed Josh Allen. Unless he delivers utter incompetence, he’s as good a candidate to develop a young QB as anyone.
RE: RE: It's a truly historic draft class of QBS for 2024.
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
Because they had no other options. They had no QB in waiting, none of the trade targets were any better than Jones, so they bit the bullet and signed him to what is essentially a 2-year deal. Many of the Jones worshipers overlooked that part.
Jones was good last year, but not nearly as good as half of BBI made him out to be. He’s always been a flawed QB in the passing game, and I don’t care how good his legs are, he has to make plays downfield. Daboll played to his strengths, and the league adjusted. Surprise! Now he’s struggling.
As I said in another thread, Daniel is from the Giants biggest problem, but he’s not the answer either. It looks like this team might be bad enough to find someone who might be.
After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
Yes, he'll might on the roster in 24, but there's no way he'll be the presumed starter at this rate. Even from a pure team morale standpoint, it is bad business to be starting a guy who is playing among the worst in the league who is also earning the highest salary.
If the o line is atrocious, keep him in there and let the rookie learn.
The missing piece is not being able to draft and develop quality OL. We haven't been able to do it in like 12 years and it is absolutely maddening.
I agree but a qb with quick decision making a keen intuitive pocket presence would make this line (when fully healthy) look like a completely different unit.
RE: RE: RE: It's a truly historic draft class of QBS for 2024.
The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
Because they had no other options. They had no QB in waiting, none of the trade targets were any better than Jones, so they bit the bullet and signed him to what is essentially a 2-year deal. Many of the Jones worshipers overlooked that part.
Jones was good last year, but not nearly as good as half of BBI made him out to be. He’s always been a flawed QB in the passing game, and I don’t care how good his legs are, he has to make plays downfield. Daboll played to his strengths, and the league adjusted. Surprise! Now he’s struggling.
As I said in another thread, Daniel is from the Giants biggest problem, but he’s not the answer either. It looks like this team might be bad enough to find someone who might be.
They could have just let him walk, signed a vet and be staring the same record in the face as they are after paying him. There might not have been other options to make this team a playoff team, but they aren’t one anyway. It couldn’t have went in a worse way for Schoen and the Giants.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You have to wait until after the 2024 season to move on from Jones
If the o line is atrocious, keep him in there and let the rookie learn.
It won't be that simple if he continues to play this way. Daboll will have a player revolt. These guys are all trying to get paid/earn contracts.
Not to mention the outside media pressure will be defeaning.
I understand and respect that point. A promising young QB could do wonders for the entire organization from team morale, to the o line to the defense to the coaching. I really hope we don't F this up, we need to secure a top pick this year.
Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
Schoen drafted a corner who is putting up a pro bowl type season. JMS looks the part barring this injury. Hyatt is obviously talented but it's going to take time with the way our OL is to really get him going. Hawkins is a starter if he can put it together.
The key is developing the 2022 class. Robinson is good. We know that. The ACL injury really set him back but the guy makes plays in every single game. We need Thibodeaux to play like last night more often. Neal has been a disaster.
Have to give draft classes time. Saying Schoen's picks aren't good after half of them have played 4 games is stupid.
That sums up your entire post, and up until now, it hasn't happened.
Norcal, Jones' pocket presence improved drastically in 2022. Everyone is piling on now because he obviously isn't playing well. But again - look at the OL. Dallas, SF, and last night...i mean we are talking absolutely horrific OL play. It's as if there isn't anyone blocking for him.
Call me crazy but Jones is not going to be as confident back there with decision making if there are 3 guys on his head after 1.5 seconds.
I know it is sounding like I am making an excuse for him but just trying to talk some common sense.
And everyone who wants to move on from Jones (or wanted to) is currently saying well, this is what happens when you pay a guy like that 40 million.
I disagree. There was practically zero offensive line last night. It was a downright embarrassment to NFL football.
The INT was awful, that's on Jones. The fumble? Maybe. But he had 3 guys collapse on him immediately, had to escape, and left the ball out there. Sucks, but not his fault. Sorry.
Norcal, Jones' pocket presence improved drastically in 2022. Everyone is piling on now because he obviously isn't playing well. But again - look at the OL. Dallas, SF, and last night...i mean we are talking absolutely horrific OL play. It's as if there isn't anyone blocking for him.
Call me crazy but Jones is not going to be as confident back there with decision making if there are 3 guys on his head after 1.5 seconds.
I know it is sounding like I am making an excuse for him but just trying to talk some common sense.
His pocket presence didn’t improve drastically. They schemed around it by utilizing his legs and keeping teams off balance. Philly put on tape how to shut that down and the rest is history. The improvement last year was all smoke and mirrors, and it was obvious from the Tennesse game.
It doesn’t take a high level of decision making to not run out of bounds for a 1 yard sack.
Jones doesn’t have NFL level pocket movement skills and he is undisciplined about getting the ball out of the pocket on time. You’re trying to talk yourself back to blaming the surrounding cast. I suggest you resist that urge consciously.
Jones doesn’t have NFL level pocket movement skills and he is undisciplined about getting the ball out of the pocket on time. You’re trying to talk yourself back to blaming the surrounding cast. I suggest you resist that urge consciously.
He is "undisciplined" about getting the ball out of the pocket on time because he has no fucking time to diagnose anything! He has zero time to throw the ball. 4 out of 5 linemen on every fucking snap are getting beat quickly and easily. Again, Jones didn't help himself last night. But he's not going to show anything good out there if this continues on with the OL.
I paid close attention to Jones’ behavior in the pocket last night. At times he gets the ball out on time. Other times he dawdles and generates pressures and sacks. He’s flat out undisciplined about it. Both Seattle QBs were disciplined about getting the ball out, in sharp contrast.
And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
Norcal, Jones' pocket presence improved drastically in 2022.
I believe Eric in Li posted a stat over the weekend that the percentage of pressures last year that were Jones's fault went up by like 100% YoY from 2021.
Jones made fewer mistakes last year is because he was 3rd the league in scrambles, and did it like 50 more times.
I paid close attention to Jones’ behavior in the pocket last night. At times he gets the ball out on time. Other times he dawdles and generates pressures and sacks. He’s flat out undisciplined about it. Both Seattle QBs were disciplined about getting the ball out, in sharp contrast.
And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
I think it was very telling that in basically a two minute drill the Seahawks felt comfortable enough with Lock getting the ball out quick enough to go 5 wide behind an offensive line with one starter in the lineup. They could have just eaten clock until Geno came back in the game. The Giants don’t have that same level of comfort.
And everyone who wants to move on from Jones (or wanted to) is currently saying well, this is what happens when you pay a guy like that 40 million.
I disagree. There was practically zero offensive line last night. It was a downright embarrassment to NFL football.
The INT was awful, that's on Jones. The fumble? Maybe. But he had 3 guys collapse on him immediately, had to escape, and left the ball out there. Sucks, but not his fault. Sorry.
The problem is Jones looks like damaged goods at this point. If he had been drafted into a better organization he’d probably be a top 5 or top 10 QB. But he wasn’t, he was drafted into a shit situation behind a shit OL. 5 years later the OL is still shit. It sucks for Jones but I think the org needs to turn the page if they’re in a position to draft a potential franchise QB.
Norcal, Jones' pocket presence improved drastically in 2022.
I believe Eric in Li posted a stat over the weekend that the percentage of pressures last year that were Jones's fault went up by like 100% YoY from 2021.
Jones made fewer mistakes last year is because he was 3rd the league in scrambles, and did it like 50 more times.
How are you measuring the drastic improvement?
He was used in a simplistic, gimmicky way and it didn't take long for the NFL to figure it out, the rest is history (and Jones is history too).
Do you know how much cap space the Giants have right now? Look it up. There isn't $11 million in cap space on this team, especially when you consider they have to have around $5 million just to sign guys when others get injured.
Eric simply go to the over the cap calculator, select 2023 and pick post 6/1 trade and compare it to selecting post 6/1 cut. The base salary guarantees and roster bonuses transfer with the trade, unlike with a cut. The only guarantees that they’re responsible for are bonuses already paid.
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With a trade, the future guarantees would simply transfer to the new team, leaving behind just the unallocated bonus cap as the current team's dead cap.
Only $36 million of the $82 million in guarantees are a signing bonus.
This cap stuff is not that hard. The conversation is trading DJ this year. Thus there is no such thing as a post June 1 treatment and no 2024 hit. It is all accelerated to 2023. So that is $36MM signing, $8MM restructure, a small bit of salary and WO bonus. $45MM all in. Can't avoid it (unless you trading partner is willing to take it which I don't even think is possible). Since his current hit is $15MM, we need to come up with $30MM of cap space to trade him. New team owes his $35MM guaranteed next year. If you see a site telling you something else, they are wrong or you are misreading it. There is no magic. Once you pay the cash you take the hit. A trade, as with a cut, accelerates the hit. Trading him in the offseason, or cutting him in the offseason is different, but then we are talking about the 2024 and 2025 cap so this conversation is irrelevant.
RE: I don’t agree with that deadline for Daboll, HBart
You select a 1st round QB and you want some continuity around him. Daboll has already developed Josh Allen. Unless he delivers utter incompetence, he’s as good a candidate to develop a young QB as anyone.
You may be right. I hope you are. Despite what we've seen this season I think Daboll is good at his job.
I paid close attention to Jones’ behavior in the pocket last night. At times he gets the ball out on time. Other times he dawdles and generates pressures and sacks. He’s flat out undisciplined about it. Both Seattle QBs were disciplined about getting the ball out, in sharp contrast.
And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
I think it was very telling that in basically a two minute drill the Seahawks felt comfortable enough with Lock getting the ball out quick enough to go 5 wide behind an offensive line with one starter in the lineup. They could have just eaten clock until Geno came back in the game. The Giants don’t have that same level of comfort.
Yeah, I thought that was striking, too. I liked what I saw from Lock and predict he will have a long lucrative career as a backup QB, which of course is one of the world’s best jobs.
I’m also still very much in Daboll’s corner. The prospect of a tight GM/HC duo drafting a QB high in the draft to develop them in their THIRD season is really unusual. I can’t think of another time it happened. That and his COY award can buy Daboll a lot of time, as long as he doesn’t melt under the current pressure.
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
No one is un-touchable
That’s an off-season move if we draft a QB.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
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But I’d kick the tires and see if Atlanta has any interest in Jones
That’s an off-season move if we draft a QB.
Jones is here until after next season no matter what. It's just a question if he's still starting at the end of 2024 or is a 40 million dollar clipboard holder
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
Which of the rest of the "good" higher-profile players would you like to keep? Who has wowed you this year? Anyone?
Giants should do what they can to add some picks in that range this year and next.
Bigger worry is if the front office knows what they’re looking for and developing them.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
Yep. A couple potential issues though. IMO, with as bad as the Giants have been, Schoen/Daboll should be on the hotseat. Do they do this, or try and "salvage" the season to give false hope to bring them back? If things continue like this, do you have lameducks making decisions on who to keep vs. who to trade?
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
Trade away upcoming FAs, or players not a part of the core. Noone is saying to deal Andrew Thomas or Dexter Lawrence
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trade Jones due to the cap hit.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
Trade him to who? Even Duke has a better QB.
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trade Jones due to the cap hit.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
No it doesn't. Cap hit this year would be $82 million. Next year it would be $69 million.
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lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
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There's players with value who aren't part of the longterm plan, and this season is quickly slipping away.
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
Yep. A couple potential issues though. IMO, with as bad as the Giants have been, Schoen/Daboll should be on the hotseat. Do they do this, or try and "salvage" the season to give false hope to bring them back? If things continue like this, do you have lameducks making decisions on who to keep vs. who to trade?
good points by both of you guys!
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In comment 16231421 djm said:
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lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
Huh? They've had something north of a 70% roster turnover from the prior regime. I think higher. They aren't running it back with the same players.
Right? What did people want Schoen to do? Trade Thomas and Lawrence for picks that won't be nearly as good as them? C'mon
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In comment 16231426 Eric from BBI said:
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trade Jones due to the cap hit.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
No it doesn't. Cap hit this year would be $82 million. Next year it would be $69 million.
Unless overthecap is wrong, the Giants have $56 million in cap space. Trading Jones jumps the number up to $69 million
Call your friends up in Buffalo to see if they have interest in him.
Why wait…do it now!!!
Play the rookie or Flott.
If they get rid of him in the offseason, per OTC, they would suffer a $69,315,000 cap hit.
There is no scenario where cutting Jones "saves" the Giants money.
https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/new-york-giants - ( New Window )
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lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
Trade away upcoming FAs, or players not a part of the core. Noone is saying to deal Andrew Thomas or Dexter Lawrence
the core
lmao.
@rydunleavy
·
26m
Let's get ahead of misinformation.
#Giants dead cap hit on Daniel Jones is $69.3M. Keeping him on the team is $47.1M. Put that in the echo chamber.
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In comment 16231421 djm said:
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lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
Trade away upcoming FAs, or players not a part of the core. Noone is saying to deal Andrew Thomas or Dexter Lawrence
the core
lmao.
Touche. I'd probably limit that to about Thomas and Lawrence right now...
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
I'm keeping McKinney, he's good.
Do Barkley a favor and send him to a good team, his career is being wasted here.
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In comment 16231456 Lambuth_Special said:
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In comment 16231421 djm said:
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lets trade away the rest of the good players we might have and keep rebuilding.
The better the player, the more urgent it is to move that player. Can't have enough of those mid round picks!
This team hasn't ever rebuilt in the past decade and that's the damn problem. The new people keep trying to run it back with the old players from the previous regime. Gettleman made a couple of token cuts/signings and then basically ran back Reese's 2017 team. Daboll/Schoen's first big contracts are all to Gettleman's guys. Rinse, repeat.
Huh? They've had something north of a 70% roster turnover from the prior regime. I think higher. They aren't running it back with the same players.
Right? What did people want Schoen to do? Trade Thomas and Lawrence for picks that won't be nearly as good as them? C'mon
I'm talking about the QB, the RB (whose potential replacement - who Schoen drafted - can't even see the field) and no.1 wide receiver. Building a good offense is critical to the modern NFL, since it's a more dependable unit year-over-year; can you really say Schoen has rebuilt it? A new paint job maybe.
(1) No one is trading for that contract.
(2) Even if they did, the cap hits are still prohibitive this year. We don't have the cap space.
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Barkley
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
I'm keeping McKinney, he's good.
Do Barkley a favor and send him to a good team, his career is being wasted here.
McKinney is good? In what world? He hasnt made a play since 2021.
This is the next step, multiple "injuries" on the horizon
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
Realistic expectations:
Saquon Barkley (3rd Rounder)
Leonard Williams (6th Rounder)
Adoree Jackson (5th Rounder)
Xavier McKinney (6th ROunder)
He might be on the team, but he won't be playing in 2024 at this rate.
exactly,
Adoree
McKinney
Leonard Williams
Campbell
Glowinski
all should be traded
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Switch the drop down to trade
(1) No one is trading for that contract.
(2) Even if they did, the cap hits are still prohibitive this year. We don't have the cap space.
1) that’s irrelevant to if it’s possible.
2) yes they can. Post June 1 trades and cuts are treated the same.
Spotrac has the post June 1 trade numbers as the below:
2023 Dead Cap: $11,105,000
2024 Dead Cap: $33,315,000
2023 Cap Savings: $4,330,000
Unless spotrac and over the cap are way off (which it’s their business model, so both being this wrong is slim), you’re incorrect
If they're 1-5 in two weeks, and they will be heavily favored to be exactly that, you've got to start cutting your losses and start positioning assets and resources for a jump on 2024.
Fans can be fans, the brass should not.
This is exactly correct, IMHO. The team needs to set up a board to review who they think are and are not part of the long term plan. I suspect a framework of this has long been in place, but there is probably some updates required. If they lose the next two, particularly if they're blown out, I'd move on from everyone not deemed part of the long term future to the greatest extent possible.
Adoree
McKinney
Leonard Williams
Campbell
Glowinski
all should be traded
I am very interested to know what you think we will get for Glowinkski....
Williams
Jackson
McKinney
They most likely will garner interest.
That's the right four. Maybe throw Slayton in there, too.
I expect a purge for a couple of reasons.
One, we are definitely heading off the rails at the moment.
Two, we have players who will want deals, have deals already that just are not part of the future and quite frankly have never been part of WINNING..
Players we should trade ASAP:
RB- Saquan Barkley
WR- Darius Slayton
S- Xavier McKinney
CB- Adore Jackson
Players that could be traded:
DT- Leonard Williams
LB- A. Ojulari
QB- Tyrod Taylor- if someone needs a backup.
S/Cb- D. Holmes - if anyone wants him.
G- Mark Glowinski - you never know.
RB- M. Brieda - if we don't move Barkley and even if we do..
I am totally fine with moving any of those folks.
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Saquon
Adoree
McKinney
Leonard Williams
Campbell
Glowinski
all should be traded
I am very interested to know what you think we will get for Glowinkski....
A used condom
But it makes the team worse than they already are, which helps. Even getting 5th rounders is fine.
Cross and Wilson/Olave would have been better in the near and long term. Thibs still has hope, but those other positions are more important to our team.
Neal made sense. But in hindsight, so did WR.
If someone wants to argue WR, the better argument, IMV, is missing on Pickens over Robinson.
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Neal over Garrett Wilson will haunt me if Neal doesn't get better.
Neal made sense. But in hindsight, so did WR.
If someone wants to argue WR, the better argument, IMV, is missing on Pickens over Robinson.
Questioning the Neal pick in hindsight is just wrong. It was shocking to most, including the Giants, that he fell to them at 7. He was at various times, predicted to go as high as #1. So, when you need OL and he's sitting there, it isn't a hard pick. The fact that he isn't working out doesn't mean it was the wrong pick.
@art_stapleton
The Giants were bracing for a challenging start to the season. There's no way they could've envisioned this with just about everything they thought they'd do right go horribly wrong.
Sometimes you need a reset, and that's where they are.
Anything that may not have been on the table a month ago has entered the equation.
You think the Colts thought they were going to push Peyton Manning out the door?
Again, long way to go. But don't tell me what they thought they would do. Never thought they'd be in this position, but four games in, here they are.
They don't even know what they'll do. I won't pretend to know.
And again, the Giants do NOT have the cap room to trade Jones this year.
And again, the Giants do NOT have the cap room to trade Jones this year.
The first part is probably true, but you’re wrong on the second part. I posted the numbers
I get it, but I'm a need drafter. IMV, we needed to address the bigger weakness. So, even if you had Wilson and Neal tied in terms of potential (Sy gave Neal an 87, Wilson an 85), the tiebreaker for me would still be OL.
Barkley is gone next offseason. Get something for him while you can.
Leonard Williams
Saquon Barkley
Adoree Jackson
Darnay Holmes
Xavier McKinney
*McKinney is the one question mark here. Ever since his hand injury he just hasn't been the same player, yet he is going to demand a big contract. Might be wise to trade him and get some value in return, instead of signing him to a multi-year deal.
The players who contracts expire after 2024 season who have a chance of being cut after this season...
Mark Glowinski
Darius Slayton
Azeez Ojulari
*Glowinski is 100% getting released at the end of this season, so if I'm the Giants I'm seeing if I can get maybe a late round pick for him. Azeez just can't stay healthy, but has pass rushing ability, so like Glowinski it wouldn't hurt to see if he has any value on the market. And Slayton's cap hit will be almost $8 million in 2024, and the Giants would save $7mil toward next year's cap if they trade him.
Eric simply go to the over the cap calculator, select 2023 and pick post 6/1 trade and compare it to selecting post 6/1 cut. The base salary guarantees and roster bonuses transfer with the trade, unlike with a cut. The only guarantees that they’re responsible for are bonuses already paid.
Only $36 million of the $82 million in guarantees are a signing bonus.
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you guys are listing are not players that other teams are going to give anything for. I think Adoree Jackson makes the most sense. I don't think trading Barkley is worth it. You're selling low.
Barkley is gone next offseason. Get something for him while you can.
What are you going to get for him? He's hurt. Are you going to get a 5 or a 6? You'll get that anyway as a comp.
$18 million, minus what’s been paid
What percentage of teams would trade for Daniel Jones?
Answer - 0%
What are you going to get for him? He's hurt. Are you going to get a 5 or a 6? You'll get that anyway as a comp.
If he gets healthy, and SB plays a game or two and looks good, I have to imagine a day two pick (likely a third) is in play.
I don't think the demand is going to be that great, but it should be pretty good.
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What are you going to get for him? He's hurt. Are you going to get a 5 or a 6? You'll get that anyway as a comp.
If he gets healthy, and SB plays a game or two and looks good, I have to imagine a day two pick (likely a third) is in play.
I don't think the demand is going to be that great, but it should be pretty good.
A third? For a frequently injured RB who will be a free agent?
What percentage of teams would trade for Daniel Jones?
Answer - 0%
How far we’ve come from the offseason of there being a supposed robust market, huh?
The percentage is higher than zero, the risk becomes substantially lower with the Giants eating most of the signing bonus. It essentially becomes a one year deal.
The percentage is low but it’s not zero.
There are no doubt a few teams that would be happy to have him. But I just don't believe anyone is giving anything close to a third for him this year.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
A third? For a frequently injured RB who will be a free agent?
It's about a team in contention now looking for more firepower to generate more offense. A lease with an option to possibly buy longterm.
It's certainly not a given, but, yes, I think a third would be in play based on immediate need.
It’s not panic anymore. This team stinks and needs to strip it down to just the young players on cost effective deals .
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
The team does suck.
Forget at a high level - name one thing it does at an average level?
Run the ball? No
Throw the ball? No
Stop the run? No
Stop the pass? No
Get sack? No
Get turnovers? No
Good special teams? bwahahahahaha
so what is the team even average at?
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The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
They believed in last years mirage, which has vanished in a hurry
It’s not “stripping it all down.” The players being discussed aren’t likely to be here next year regardless. Barkley is on the franchise tag with an injury history. Williams is in the last year of a bloated contract. Jackson is in the last year of a contract. None of these guys were likely coming back unless they had exceptional seasons.
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In comment 16231426 Eric from BBI said:
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trade Jones due to the cap hit.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
No it doesn't. Cap hit this year would be $82 million. Next year it would be $69 million.
You kind of have to consider it. Clean slate and all.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
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Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
It’s not “stripping it all down.” The players being discussed aren’t likely to be here next year regardless. Barkley is on the franchise tag with an injury history. Williams is in the last year of a bloated contract. Jackson is in the last year of a contract. None of these guys were likely coming back unless they had exceptional seasons.
Exactly, this is the way well managed teams operate. Schoen and Co are on a short leash, I'd say they have 2-3 years tops. The wisest move is to firesale now and pray for the best draft picks possible in a historic draft for qbs, keep improving the lines and draft the best qb possible to have any hope for a future.
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In comment 16231438 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 16231426 Eric from BBI said:
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trade Jones due to the cap hit.
Trading Jones this year frees up $13 million in cap space next year
No it doesn't. Cap hit this year would be $82 million. Next year it would be $69 million.
You kind of have to consider it. Clean slate and all.
No bud, the contract was actually smartly constructed as an incentive laden 2 year make it or break it deal. We get out with minimal losses after next year. Also, as some posters have pointed out, let DJ play behind the o line next year while a rookie learns and if the o line and rookie qb look up to the task bench Jones.
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In comment 16231870 NorcalNYG said:
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The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
They believed in last years mirage, which has vanished in a hurry
If they really believed then they would have given him a long term deal. The deal is really a 2 year make or break contract. He isn't making it, simply put
Agreed. Might see one or two players traded. There has to be interest on the other side too.
Plus, the coaching staff wants to win football games. This is their resume.
Adoree could go for a 4th-6th, saquon for a 3rd-5th. This is as much about getting picks as it is about securing a higher draft slot in a historic draft for qbs. I'll be disappointed if Schoen isn't wise to this.
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Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
I think some major changes need to be made but I think there are some guys from Schoen's first two drafts. Wan'Dale, Thibs, JMS, Banks, McFadden, Hyatt, and Bellinger have flashed. Perhaps too early to tell with Hopkins/Flott as well.
The OL/QB combo is so disfunctional right now that I think it drags down the evaluation of the entire team.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
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After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
Yes, he'll might on the roster in 24, but there's no way he'll be the presumed starter at this rate. Even from a pure team morale standpoint, it is bad business to be starting a guy who is playing among the worst in the league who is also earning the highest salary.
Another thing to look for is for an OC consultant to be brought in. I’ll be very curious to see who it is if it happens.
The next 2 weeks not only define the need but also the potential trade ammo.
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Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
Schoen drafted a corner who is putting up a pro bowl type season. JMS looks the part barring this injury. Hyatt is obviously talented but it's going to take time with the way our OL is to really get him going. Hawkins is a starter if he can put it together.
The key is developing the 2022 class. Robinson is good. We know that. The ACL injury really set him back but the guy makes plays in every single game. We need Thibodeaux to play like last night more often. Neal has been a disaster.
Have to give draft classes time. Saying Schoen's picks aren't good after half of them have played 4 games is stupid.
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The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
Because they had no other options. They had no QB in waiting, none of the trade targets were any better than Jones, so they bit the bullet and signed him to what is essentially a 2-year deal. Many of the Jones worshipers overlooked that part.
Jones was good last year, but not nearly as good as half of BBI made him out to be. He’s always been a flawed QB in the passing game, and I don’t care how good his legs are, he has to make plays downfield. Daboll played to his strengths, and the league adjusted. Surprise! Now he’s struggling.
As I said in another thread, Daniel is from the Giants biggest problem, but he’s not the answer either. It looks like this team might be bad enough to find someone who might be.
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In comment 16231859 Rick in Dallas said:
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After the 2024 season his cap savings is $21 million and his dead money is $18 million.
Schoen guaranteed $82 million in the first two years.
We all applauded Schoen back then as it was essentially a 2 year deal.
He is not going anywhere for 2 seasons
Right, he'll be the backup next year and possibly a bridge to the QB we draft next year.
And we are drafting a QB.
Yes, he'll might on the roster in 24, but there's no way he'll be the presumed starter at this rate. Even from a pure team morale standpoint, it is bad business to be starting a guy who is playing among the worst in the league who is also earning the highest salary.
If the o line is atrocious, keep him in there and let the rookie learn.
I agree but a qb with quick decision making a keen intuitive pocket presence would make this line (when fully healthy) look like a completely different unit.
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In comment 16231870 NorcalNYG said:
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The smartest move for Schoen is to firesale and go for a high draft choice. I think they all realize Jones isn't the guy, they gave him a 2 year prove it or lose it trial deal. They can get a rookie qb and let them fight it out for the job next year, and then move on with minimal losses.
If they realize he isn't the guy, why did they just sign him to a big contract?
Because they had no other options. They had no QB in waiting, none of the trade targets were any better than Jones, so they bit the bullet and signed him to what is essentially a 2-year deal. Many of the Jones worshipers overlooked that part.
Jones was good last year, but not nearly as good as half of BBI made him out to be. He’s always been a flawed QB in the passing game, and I don’t care how good his legs are, he has to make plays downfield. Daboll played to his strengths, and the league adjusted. Surprise! Now he’s struggling.
As I said in another thread, Daniel is from the Giants biggest problem, but he’s not the answer either. It looks like this team might be bad enough to find someone who might be.
They could have just let him walk, signed a vet and be staring the same record in the face as they are after paying him. There might not have been other options to make this team a playoff team, but they aren’t one anyway. It couldn’t have went in a worse way for Schoen and the Giants.
If the o line is atrocious, keep him in there and let the rookie learn.
It won't be that simple if he continues to play this way. Daboll will have a player revolt. These guys are all trying to get paid/earn contracts.
Not to mention the outside media pressure will be defeaning.
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If the o line is atrocious, keep him in there and let the rookie learn.
It won't be that simple if he continues to play this way. Daboll will have a player revolt. These guys are all trying to get paid/earn contracts.
Not to mention the outside media pressure will be defeaning.
I understand and respect that point. A promising young QB could do wonders for the entire organization from team morale, to the o line to the defense to the coaching. I really hope we don't F this up, we need to secure a top pick this year.
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In comment 16231941 ryanmkeane said:
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Games like last night are the perfect storm for BBI to panic and say strip it all down and everything and everyone sucks. Team isn't trading Jones and they've got a lot of young talent they are trying to develop. Obviously the OL is a massive problem.
What talent? Schoen's drafts are arguably worse than Gettleman's right now.
Strip it down, blow it up, whatever.
Schoen drafted a corner who is putting up a pro bowl type season. JMS looks the part barring this injury. Hyatt is obviously talented but it's going to take time with the way our OL is to really get him going. Hawkins is a starter if he can put it together.
The key is developing the 2022 class. Robinson is good. We know that. The ACL injury really set him back but the guy makes plays in every single game. We need Thibodeaux to play like last night more often. Neal has been a disaster.
Have to give draft classes time. Saying Schoen's picks aren't good after half of them have played 4 games is stupid.
That sums up your entire post, and up until now, it hasn't happened.
Call me crazy but Jones is not going to be as confident back there with decision making if there are 3 guys on his head after 1.5 seconds.
I know it is sounding like I am making an excuse for him but just trying to talk some common sense.
I disagree. There was practically zero offensive line last night. It was a downright embarrassment to NFL football.
The INT was awful, that's on Jones. The fumble? Maybe. But he had 3 guys collapse on him immediately, had to escape, and left the ball out there. Sucks, but not his fault. Sorry.
Call me crazy but Jones is not going to be as confident back there with decision making if there are 3 guys on his head after 1.5 seconds.
I know it is sounding like I am making an excuse for him but just trying to talk some common sense.
His pocket presence didn’t improve drastically. They schemed around it by utilizing his legs and keeping teams off balance. Philly put on tape how to shut that down and the rest is history. The improvement last year was all smoke and mirrors, and it was obvious from the Tennesse game.
It doesn’t take a high level of decision making to not run out of bounds for a 1 yard sack.
He certainly isn't as bad as he looks right now, but he wasn't some elite QB.
I wonder if we trade Waller if we are 1-5.
He is "undisciplined" about getting the ball out of the pocket on time because he has no fucking time to diagnose anything! He has zero time to throw the ball. 4 out of 5 linemen on every fucking snap are getting beat quickly and easily. Again, Jones didn't help himself last night. But he's not going to show anything good out there if this continues on with the OL.
He had time on the pick 6. And the second pick.
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And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
I believe Eric in Li posted a stat over the weekend that the percentage of pressures last year that were Jones's fault went up by like 100% YoY from 2021.
Jones made fewer mistakes last year is because he was 3rd the league in scrambles, and did it like 50 more times.
How are you measuring the drastic improvement?
And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
I think it was very telling that in basically a two minute drill the Seahawks felt comfortable enough with Lock getting the ball out quick enough to go 5 wide behind an offensive line with one starter in the lineup. They could have just eaten clock until Geno came back in the game. The Giants don’t have that same level of comfort.
I disagree. There was practically zero offensive line last night. It was a downright embarrassment to NFL football.
The INT was awful, that's on Jones. The fumble? Maybe. But he had 3 guys collapse on him immediately, had to escape, and left the ball out there. Sucks, but not his fault. Sorry.
The problem is Jones looks like damaged goods at this point. If he had been drafted into a better organization he’d probably be a top 5 or top 10 QB. But he wasn’t, he was drafted into a shit situation behind a shit OL. 5 years later the OL is still shit. It sucks for Jones but I think the org needs to turn the page if they’re in a position to draft a potential franchise QB.
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Norcal, Jones' pocket presence improved drastically in 2022.
I believe Eric in Li posted a stat over the weekend that the percentage of pressures last year that were Jones's fault went up by like 100% YoY from 2021.
Jones made fewer mistakes last year is because he was 3rd the league in scrambles, and did it like 50 more times.
How are you measuring the drastic improvement?
He was used in a simplistic, gimmicky way and it didn't take long for the NFL to figure it out, the rest is history (and Jones is history too).
The offense scored 3.
Nothing comes easily.
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Do you know how much cap space the Giants have right now? Look it up. There isn't $11 million in cap space on this team, especially when you consider they have to have around $5 million just to sign guys when others get injured.
Eric simply go to the over the cap calculator, select 2023 and pick post 6/1 trade and compare it to selecting post 6/1 cut. The base salary guarantees and roster bonuses transfer with the trade, unlike with a cut. The only guarantees that they’re responsible for are bonuses already paid.
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With a trade, the future guarantees would simply transfer to the new team, leaving behind just the unallocated bonus cap as the current team's dead cap.
Only $36 million of the $82 million in guarantees are a signing bonus.
This cap stuff is not that hard. The conversation is trading DJ this year. Thus there is no such thing as a post June 1 treatment and no 2024 hit. It is all accelerated to 2023. So that is $36MM signing, $8MM restructure, a small bit of salary and WO bonus. $45MM all in. Can't avoid it (unless you trading partner is willing to take it which I don't even think is possible). Since his current hit is $15MM, we need to come up with $30MM of cap space to trade him. New team owes his $35MM guaranteed next year. If you see a site telling you something else, they are wrong or you are misreading it. There is no magic. Once you pay the cash you take the hit. A trade, as with a cut, accelerates the hit. Trading him in the offseason, or cutting him in the offseason is different, but then we are talking about the 2024 and 2025 cap so this conversation is irrelevant.
You may be right. I hope you are. Despite what we've seen this season I think Daboll is good at his job.
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I paid close attention to Jones’ behavior in the pocket last night. At times he gets the ball out on time. Other times he dawdles and generates pressures and sacks. He’s flat out undisciplined about it. Both Seattle QBs were disciplined about getting the ball out, in sharp contrast.
And Jones’ pocket movement is not NFL level. It’s not helping his very inexperienced OL.
You are talking yourself into a position where it’s all the supporting cast’s fault, like you have for years. It’s not. Jones is part of the pass blocking problem.
I think it was very telling that in basically a two minute drill the Seahawks felt comfortable enough with Lock getting the ball out quick enough to go 5 wide behind an offensive line with one starter in the lineup. They could have just eaten clock until Geno came back in the game. The Giants don’t have that same level of comfort.
Yeah, I thought that was striking, too. I liked what I saw from Lock and predict he will have a long lucrative career as a backup QB, which of course is one of the world’s best jobs.