Judge is Jones's only former offensive coach still in the league with a prominent job, Judge seemingly liked working with him, and the Pats clearly don't have a QB.
What do you think would be fair compensation for a player of his quality on a reasonable deal?
A team acquiring Jones via trade this off season inherits a pretty reasonable contract with limited guarantees. ~3/110M with 35M guaranteed.
The Giants would save 36M in cash and 13.8M in cap savings on 2024.
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In comment 16254392 Matt M. said:
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You expect them to pay him his salary to be a back-up?
I was a little muddy with my response. I dont think he gets traded, but once he is released from the Giants -I can see him being coveted to backup certain teams at a much lower contract.
If you were an NFL GM and Jones were available on the open market, what sort of contract might you offer him? And if you think there's different valuations depending on whether you, as the hypothetical GM, are filling a starter role, a bridge role, or a backup role, feel free to distinguish between those scenarios if it helps avoid any muddiness.
If he were a FA? 2 years. Probably something like 12-14 guaranteed? But I could see a lot of incentives if he ever did become a starter I think his time as a full time starter is just about done (unless like UConn says a team like Atlanta or Minny want to take a chance.)
Like I said before, a team like SF makes a lot of sense (and to answer your previous question), I think Darnold stinks. And the one strength Jones has is with his legs and I think him and McCaffrey along with a short quick passing game could be effective. But no one is breaking the bank for him now. Even if he does come back this season and has a few good games.
At the risk of getting yelled at by everyone, he'd be a great backup for Baltimore.
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In comment 16254271 UConn4523 said:
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assuming they actually commit to him running 7-10x per game. There would be a ceiling in it, but it would be higher than Ridder IMO. And for 1 year at a cheap rate I don’t think it’s all that risky.
Jones might have more upside than Ridder, I'm not sure he does. However, if I'm the Falcons GM, in order to move from my $2M QB to a $40M QB, I have to be absolutely certain there is significant upside with Jones. I don't see it.
In this scenario it’s basically a 1 year commitment. There’s no long term risk, especially if you can’t get one of the top 2 guys in the draft.
As for whether he’s better than Ridder, they wouldn’t make the trade if they didn’t think it was an upgrade so that’s moot.
I don’t think any of this is possible, but if it were there are a few teams I can see it working for, Atlanta definitely being one of them.
There's a big difference between an upgrade and a "significant" upgrade.
Would that be an attractive proposition for the Pats?
Coachkiller.
Brian Daboll take note. Your career is next.
Yeah but to be fair, he really didn't have very many former offensive coaches to speak of and Judge was the only young non-retread of the group.
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2nd neck injury and salary makes the timing of a trade less than ideal. You would need someone desperate and they would need to come to us. Putting him on the market would put us in a position of weakness. We would get nothing.
You're right about the injury and salary, though Christian does touch on the latter above.
As for the nature of putting a player on the market vs. having an interested party make an unsolicited offer, that can be said about any negotiation for any transferable asset or liability, in any market or industry, couldn't it?
DJ and the Giants are done at that point, no? We are talking QB. Think Mayfield when they started dancing with Watson. If he did not get the second neck injury, maybe, we could do something. There is not one player on this team I would not trade for the right offer. I don't worship Daniel Jones and am willing to upgrade the position. If someone comes to you in a negotiation you tend to hold the upper hand. This has been my experience.
One thing I have learned since the fumble. NFL QBs are very hard to find.
So in the abstract, if there was a good quarterback available for 3/110M with only 36M fully guaranteed, there's a market no?
In a world where Derek Carr gets 4/150 with 60M fully guaranteed, Jones is a bargain.
Anyone?
The fact that no one’s pointing out a trial purchase like this isn’t unreasonable shows how far the Overton window on Jones has shifted. Glad you asked this question.
i feel extremely safe in saying there’s not a single team in this league that would trade for a guy who will make $36m next year, and who doesn’t throw TDs, can’t deal with pressure in the pocket, and can’t stay healthy.
only a team that can’t admit its mistakes and which places more value on looks and pedigree than actually quarterbacking would want this schlub.
that’s us.
That wind you feel in your toupe is this thread thoroughly going over your head.
I think you are misunderstanding both the timing and mechanics of this discussion.
1) The question I posed is if the Pats would consider acquiring Jones this coming off season, so it would be 1 year commitment
2) The cap hit and salary acquired via trade is entirely negotiable, the numbers in the agreement are not locked
I don’t understand some of these trade ideas. If you want to know if it is realistic, try to picture how the fan base would react. Can you see Boston sports fans and sports talk shows talking about the excitement around acquiring Daniel Jones?
Exactly. Daniel Jones is better than Mac Jones, but not to an extent where you replace one with the other.
Daniel Jones is only an expensive quarterback if the economics are fixed, but they are not.
Separate yourself from the existing contract for a moment, and ask yourself: if Daniel Jones was an UFA free agent next year do you think he would draw the same contract as Jacoby Brisset did this year? That contract is 1/8M. Seems reasonable for a prove it/backup deal, no?
Now if you believe Jones is an irrevocably bad player, you probably don't want him under any circumstances. If that's your stance cool (that's closer to my stance btw).
But if you are his former head coach and you believe he was the victim of bad circumstances, would you take a 1/8M gamble on him? If that answer is yes, and the Giants eat 28M of the guarantees on 2024, what effectively remains is a 1/8M commitment.
So long as Jones can pass a physical at the end of 2024 (and maybe this is big enough of a risk to say no), you can walk away with no additional cost.
But let's say Jones reestablishes himself, you now have him for 2025/2026 for 2/75.6M with no guarantees, which is a bargain for a starting QB.
As for the NE Pat's interest in Jones, that would depend on whether BB isn't fired at the end of the season. Mr. Kraft may be ready to start looking at a different HC in the offseason, and whether the new coach would like to take on Jones as a QB "project" to begin his new job as the Patriots HC would be quire a reach.
Unless David Cutcliff suddenly emerges from obscurity and takes an NFL role somewhere, lol
For next year?
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I think any team employing Joe Judge is the only team likely to cover Jones in a trade.
Unless David Cutcliff suddenly emerges from obscurity and takes an NFL role somewhere, lol
I'm picturing a beer commercial with Cuttlife, Shurmur, Garrett, Judge, Daboll, and Kafka sitting around watching training camp highlights saying "If only the other team wasn't allowed to tackle, he would have been one of the best."
And I think Christian is right that even just Jones’ base salary is too much for other teams to countenance. So that means the Giants might need to throw in some money to negate the base cap hit and will get negligible compensation in return.
I don’t see the Patriots. The issue is I don’t see any team at all. I’m not so hot about Ridder but are the chances of him emerging as a quality NFL QB greater than Jones at this point? Of course. So I don’t like Atlanta as a destination.
Ultimately, I think we’re headed for a 2019 do over. Jones starts the 2024 season as starter but Daboll puts in our next 1st rd pick as soon as the guy is ready. That’s realistically my expectation.
More likely the opposite. I'm a dumb AF poster, but this is a good thread : )
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If the Falcons win a few games, he could be an interesting stop gap. As discussed earlier in the thread, they've got some weapons.
For next year?
Yes. Next year. Not sure of the cap implications but I think it could make sense.
The cap implications are simply an issue of how much a team would require the Giants to eat of the 36M in 2024.
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In comment 16255260 Sean said:
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If the Falcons win a few games, he could be an interesting stop gap. As discussed earlier in the thread, they've got some weapons.
For next year?
Yes. Next year. Not sure of the cap implications but I think it could make sense.
There o line is pretty awful no? I'd think nfl talent evaluators would see dj needs an o line
The cap implications are simply an issue of how much a team would require the Giants to eat of the 36M in 2024.
A trade would force a dead cap hit of $35mm. DJ’s current 2024 hit is $47mm. If the Giants have to pay a team to take him, there won’t be a good financial reason not to keep on the squad.
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Yeah Atlanta could look like the 2022 Giants.
The cap implications are simply an issue of how much a team would require the Giants to eat of the 36M in 2024.
A trade would force a dead cap hit of $35mm. DJ’s current 2024 hit is $47mm. If the Giants have to pay a team to take him, there won’t be a good financial reason not to keep on the squad.
A draft pick for the money sounds good to me?
It's a risky trade. The dollar cost is high. His performance this year, and then injury, mean there's a lot of risk that he won't pan out, vs the lack of high reward if he does pan out.
As someone pointed out, a team like the Pats is likely to be picking at the top of the draft where a better prospect can be had at a cheaper price.
So, why would anyone give up a worthwhile pick? And why would the Giants give up on him for a lousy pick?
Sure there is. This is where you have to take into consideration the broader cap savings, and not worry about balancing out any single year.
The 22M that will accelerate from 24 + 25 is just jumping columns in the spreadsheet. Which opens space in 24 + 25.
Every dollar below 36M they give Jones in new cash next year is money they save.
Again, this is only true if the costs are fixed, which they are not.
Think about this hypothetical for any team, forget about New England: would you trade a conditional 5th round pick for Daniel Jones on 1 year 8/M contract?
The Giants could create this scenario for a team.
For me it's just more of a thought exercise.
If Jones is truly a *good* quarterback, and the victim of circumstances, I'd assume a few teams would be interested in a low risk acquisition.
Hell if Jones truly is a *good* quarterback, I'd assume a few teams would happily take the remainder of his deal ~(3/110M with 36M guaranteed) -- and be willing to give the Giants a good pick in return.
Anywho it's a good debate, and I've always enjoyed my back-and-forth with you throughout the years.
the contract calls for 36 guaranteed. To make it 8, Giants have to eat 28. He has 3 years of amortized signing bonus of 11 per. 28 + 36 is a 64 mil cap cost next year. Currently, his cap cost is 47. So, you've got to push 17 out to the future, just to break even next year. Any way you slice it there's going to be dead money in 2025, and I think this plan saves a few million over keeping him for a year, then dumping him, but then you have to get a replacement.
I would trade FOR him with that deal. I would NOT trade him with that deal. Keep him and use him, either as starter or back up, the rest of this year and next. Draft a QB this year. Keeping Jones allows you to use him as a bridge and not rush a rookie (especially one that needs a little time). And, you're not drafting hungry if the chips don't fall our way. A 5th rounder is not worth it.
The Giants would have dead money in the amount of 33.3M + however much in salary they picked up.
So if they picked up 28M of his salary, they would have dead money in the amount of 33.3M + 28M.
It would be a big dead money hit no doubt, but it would 1) be a net cap savings of 8M 2) he would be completely off the books.
If the goal is to be cap neutral in 2024, you'd draw the line higher and only eat 16M of his salary.
If it's a contract you're trying to get out of, it will come at a cost.
What I'm trying to illustrate is *if* Jones was perceived as a good quarterback -- there would be a strong market to acquire him and inherit a really favorable contract.
That Giants fans can't even get their head around a team acquiring him with the Giants picking up more of the price tag, is probably a good indication of how the league perceives him.
The thread came across, to me, as a desperation, how can we get out of this contract, thing. Asking when the Giants, and Jones, have been at a low is not going to spark up positive thinking.
If they truly want to move on, the best thing would be to let him heal, get the OL in some semblance of health, play him down the stretch, and hopefully he plays well and gives some team hope, then trade him in the offseason. You are absolutely right that in such a scenario, it is doable.
Ride it out, tank if necessary (so far intentionally losing hasn't been necessary), and see how the draft is looking.
The dream scenario is to find a stud, have Jones start the year, set the world on fire, and command a nice trade.
Too early to sell out of desperation.