Does Schoen take a chance next April

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he is most likely the best player in the draft BUT how can we justify taking a WR in the top 3 when we have a shit Oline and no QB?

That said - if he’s a believer in a guy like Nix, Penix, etc., your scenario could play out.

a really talented QB early and take a talented WR like Troy Franklin, Brian Thomas, Ladd McConkey in the second round.

As of Jan. 8…..Especially Offense-specials-and O line….then get their input on what players they know this dumpster fire dirty diaper of a team needs to win.

Got to go with the sure thing. Imo, lately you don't know what you get picking a QB early anymore. I wouldn't mind drafting MH, then moving up to get a QB.

Even Tom Brady can't complete passes lying on his back.


If they want a QB next year they should get the best one in the draft (Yeah I know - everything is "potential") and then get .... hmmm I was going to say WR next but, that OL needs so much help.

How about finding the next Chris Snee this year. He worked out well for a 2nd round pick at Guard.

I said essentially the exact same thing a few days ago. I think it's a viable strategy if they haven't fallen in love with just one particular QB.

Then, again, I am almost certain the Giants will have the #1 overall pick in the Draft, so they may just grab a QB then.

Would you have drafted Larry Fitzgerald and then moved up for JP Losman?

Don’t get cute - take the top rated QB available. Which at this point is probably going to be Caleb Williams

I gotta think if you fuck around like that with the third overall, the entire league knows your next move is qb... We aren't gonna be the only one that's gonna want one of these guys. Either gonna make moving $$$$$ or we will be preemptively jumped, or both.

In comment 16286747 prdave73 said:

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Got to go with the sure thing. Imo, lately you don't know what you get picking a QB early anymore. I wouldn't mind drafting MH, then moving up to get a QB.

You DON'T know what you're getting. Here are all QBs picked #1 or #2 since 2001:

2001 Michael Vick no SB win
2002 David Carr SB 46 Did not play
2003 Carson Palmer no SB win
2004 Eli Manning won SB
2005 Alex Smith no SB win
2007 JaMarcus Russell no SB win
2009 Matthew Stafford won SB 56
2010 Sam Bradford no SB win
2011 Cam Newton no SB win
2012 Andrew Luck (RGIII #2) no SB x 2
2015 Jamies Winston (Marcus Mariota #2) no SB x 2
2016 Jared Goff (Carson Wentz #2) Goff no SB, Wentz SB 52 Did not play
2017 Mitchell Trubisky at #2 no SB
2018 Baker Mayfield no SB
2019 Kyler Murray no SB win
2020 Joe Burrow no SB win
2021 Trevor Lawrence (Zach Wilson at #2) no SB wins

If he likes the QB, take the QB. They may not be Marvin Harrison but there are a few good to excellent day 1 and day 2 WRs available in every draft.

Looking at that from a Super Bowl threshold is not the way to do it. That list implies Burrow hasn't succeeded. Come on.

There are A LOT of teams that can use a QB. So there is no guarantee your going to get one. These theories assume in a way that everyone else stays put and only YOUR team has the idea to move up and get a QB.

Giants, Saints, Vikings, Pats, Broncos, Chicago, Atlanta, Vegas, Tampa Bay, Rams maybe even the Jets could take a QB..

So you cannot sit there and wait a whole round to see IF you can get a QB...

taking a WR before a QB is insane

In comment 16286811 Sean said:

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Looking at that from a Super Bowl threshold is not the way to do it. That list implies Burrow hasn't succeeded. Come on.

The list isn't just about SB wins. I just wanted to point out how having a #1 or #2 pick, and using that pick on a QB, does not guarantee success with a team as bad as the Giants.

he might not be able to sell to ownership a plan to come back without taking a qb wether he picks #1-5

issues are overblown without Andrew Thomas, and for comparisons sake, look at how much Jamar Chase helped Joe Burrow.

And have stated more than once, that even if Schoen enters the draft looking for a quarterback, a distinct possibility, he will not reach with their first pick.

If he has targeted only 2 who warrant being drafted with their first pick, and they are picking 3rd, baring a trade up, I can definitely see the OP s scenario being played out

In comment 16286869 barens said:

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issues are overblown without Andrew Thomas, and for comparisons sake, look at how much Jamar Chase helped Joe Burrow.

THIS!!!
Putting all your eggs in one basket has always been foolish.
Besides our crack scouting staff has been sub par for ao long, do you want ti give them more picks
Get your Lamborghini and your Porsche then settle for the Chevies, Fords and Kias

In comment 16286807 Jim in NH said:

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In comment 16286747 prdave73 said: Quote: Got to go with the sure thing. Imo, lately you don't know what you get picking a QB early anymore. I wouldn't mind drafting MH, then moving up to get a QB. You DON'T know what you're getting. Here are all QBs picked #1 or #2 since 2001: 2001 Michael Vick no SB win 2002 David Carr SB 46 Did not play 2003 Carson Palmer no SB win 2004 Eli Manning won SB 2005 Alex Smith no SB win 2007 JaMarcus Russell no SB win 2009 Matthew Stafford won SB 56 2010 Sam Bradford no SB win 2011 Cam Newton no SB win 2012 Andrew Luck (RGIII #2) no SB x 2 2015 Jamies Winston (Marcus Mariota #2) no SB x 2 2016 Jared Goff (Carson Wentz #2) Goff no SB, Wentz SB 52 Did not play 2017 Mitchell Trubisky at #2 no SB 2018 Baker Mayfield no SB 2019 Kyler Murray no SB win 2020 Joe Burrow no SB win 2021 Trevor Lawrence (Zach Wilson at #2) no SB wins

It’s a numbers game. The real analysis is what percentage of QB’s drafted high are ‘good’ versus the percentage of ‘lower’ picks. Look, you get your pick so that’s nothing to sneeze at; still can go wrong, still s bit of a crapshoot…but you get your pick which seldom happens in the draft. If you think one has franchise potential you don’t mess around.

Personally, Caleb scares the shit out of me, not my pick. I’d feel better with Jayden or Drake; Jayden will be better from the jump, Drake may have more upside long term. Bottom line Joe Schoen - go get YOUR QB.

except in instead of drafting a WR we took a RB?

Cool. Then we can repeat the cycle again.

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Big difference between taking a chance and making a fucking huge mistake.

In comment 16286691 TommyWiseau said:

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he is most likely the best player in the draft BUT how can we justify taking a WR in the top 3 when we have a shit Oline and no QB?

The only way I pick Harrison is if the Giants have the 3rd pick and miss out on Williams and Maye. Then maybe package the2 #2's if a QB they really like is available somwhere later in the 1st round

In comment 16286912 logman said:

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Cool. Then we can repeat the cycle again.

We weren't taking Allen. We were talking about taking Darnold or Rosen How would of that worked out!

but even a young Jerry Rice would struggle if a QB can’t get him the ball. QB is the most important position on the field, Schoen needs to address that first. If there’s a WR he really likes late 1st, then trade up into late 1st round.

I do think the cry for a “#1 WR” is a little misplaced. According to either PFF or NextGen, the Giants create more separation than almost every team in the league. They just need a QB who can get them the ball, and an OL that can give him the time to do that. Take the QB with your first pick, then look at the OL in rd 2.

In comment 16286778 Sean said:

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Would you have drafted Larry Fitzgerald and then moved up for JP Losman?

This exactly^^^^

Yeah you can point to Lamar Jackson or Hurts but it's much more likely you'll get a franchise QB if you pick early and even then it's a crap shoot.

In comment 16286931 nochance said:

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In comment 16286691 TommyWiseau said: Quote: he is most likely the best player in the draft BUT how can we justify taking a WR in the top 3 when we have a shit Oline and no QB? The only way I pick Harrison is if the Giants have the 3rd pick and miss out on Williams and Maye. Then maybe package the2 #2's if a QB they really like is available somwhere later in the 1st round

You cannot take the risk that the QB you want will still be there. Plus - you are competing with other teams.

Harrison Jr is a phenomenal talent, no question. But it's a much better approach to get the QB you want first, and then trade into the first to get a WR you really like if he is still there (like Harrison Jr's teammate Egbuka), then to get Harrison and hope the QB you want is still there.

In comment 16286942 nochance said:

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In comment 16286912 logman said: Quote: Cool. Then we can repeat the cycle again. We weren't taking Allen. We were talking about taking Darnold or Rosen How would of that worked out!

Impossible to know at that point. And no, they weren't limited to them. They could have facilitated a trade.

You take the shot at the QB when you are in position to do it. It is the single most important position in the game. You might get it wrong, but you still take the shot.

In comment 16286854 Jim in NH said:

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In comment 16286811 Sean said: Quote: Looking at that from a Super Bowl threshold is not the way to do it. That list implies Burrow hasn't succeeded. Come on. The list isn't just about SB wins. I just wanted to point out how having a #1 or #2 pick, and using that pick on a QB, does not guarantee success with a team as bad as the Giants.

The Bengals/Texans game yesterday was a perfect example of how important the QB can be to a team's success in a short amount of time.

Thought could be possible until now schoen has no choice but to draft a qb. They have to give the fan base(us) some type of hope after a season like this. There’s only two ways to do that and signal you are trying to get better and put seats back in the stands. New coach or new qb. I say go qb but I think Maye is going to be our target

you believe will turn the entire organization around, you pick him at the top, and celebrate. This is precisely what NYG has needed for years, let's not lose focus and start getting hooked on the WR, etc.

In comment 16286988 JonC said:

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you believe will turn the entire organization around, you pick him at the top, and celebrate. This is precisely what NYG has needed for years, let's not lose focus and start getting hooked on the WR, etc.

I do believe in this, but we do have to find a true number 1 go to guy eventually. Maybe we get lucky and find one in the 2nd round. But all the best teams in the league have a dynamite number 1 target.

let's keep the horse before the cart.

Edge, WR, and you could easily argue they need more at S, CB, TE, RB.

Prospects like McKinney and Ojulari could well be on their way outta here in a couple short months.

In comment 16287012 JonC said:

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Edge, WR, and you could easily argue they need more at S, CB, TE, RB. Prospects like McKinney and Ojulari could well be on their way outta here in a couple short months.

Agreed. I think people need to realize we have to basically start over and build the team. Those guy you mentioned, plus a few more would be off the team at the end of the year.

taking a QB first is if they win a few games, loose out on those worthy of a high draft spot(no confidence that value meets the position).
No matter what, they need a new QB. Jones is not the answer.

it was considered a deep QB draft. Two of the better picks weren't even the top 2 selected.

and so you should avoid taking one is absurd. You want a safe pick like Evan Neal or Ereck Flowers instead?

These guys get paid to find a guy who can develop into a franchise QB and they get paid to turn him into that. If you don't trust them to be able to do that, you fire them now so guys who can have time to scout the prospects.

This team has a ton of needs, but QB is most important position on the field. You don't pass on it because you are terrified they could all be the next Josh Rosen.

...no qb can survive this OL, and no WR will ever get the fekkin ball.

Same mantra as every season for the last decade. We draft OBJ in 14' and got to see HOF Zach Martin start last night in that drubbing.

OL.

Then take JJ Mccarthy by moving up if you have to. McCarthy can read defenses better than the top two QB's being talked about. IIRC, a certain Michigan QB drafted in the lower rounds won a few SB's.

back. Sure, they will have two top picks this year. But I bet they would trade both picks right now for Stroud.

In comment 16287152 Rich_Houston_1971 said:

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Then take JJ Mccarthy by moving up if you have to. McCarthy can read defenses better than the top two QB's being talked about. IIRC, a certain Michigan QB drafted in the lower rounds won a few SB's.

The Michigan coaching staff didn't trust JJ to throw more than 9 times against Penn State - and you want to build your franchise around him?

Several threads have brought up the scenario of Caleb Williams and Drake Maye being off the Board when the Giants pick, so the thought is that maybe the Giants should take the very best wide receiver (Marvin Harrison Jr.) and then use draft capital to move back up into the second half of Round One for a QB.

At one level, the issue could be moot since the odds are now very high the Giants will be able to snag one of the above QBs. And at another level, every draft is different, and the past may not apply to what promises to be a strong 2024 QB class.

In any event, here are all the QBs taken in the second half of Round One since 2000. There are a couple of notable HOFers (Drew Brews, Aaron Rodgers), one current very high-performer (Lamar Jackson) and a couple of "good" to "very good" QBs (Chad Pennington, Joe Flacco.) So, that comes to 5 QBs out of 20 = 25% hit rate:


Year/Pick/QB

2000/ 18/ Pennington, Chad
2001/ 32/ Brees, Drew
2002/ 32/ Ramsey, Patrick
2003/ 19/ Boller, Kyle
2003/ 22/ Grossman, Rex
2004/ 22/ Losman, J.P.
2005/ 24/ Rodgers, Aaron
2005/ 25/ Campbell, Jason
2007/ 22/ Quinn, Brady
2008/ 18/ Flacco, Joe
2009/ 17/ Freeman, Josh
2010/ 25/ Tebow, Tim
2012/ 22/ Weeden, Brandon
2013/ 16/ Manuel, EJ
2014/ 22/ Manziel, Johnny
2014/ 32/ Bridgewater, Teddy
2016/ 26/ Lynch, Paxton
2018/ 32/ Jackson, Lamar
2020/ 26/ Love, Jordan
2022/ 20/ Pickett, Kenny

If we’re in position to grab one of the top 2 QBs then we have to pull the trigger. WR should be an afterthought. There’s plenty of bonafide WRs every year now.

In comment 16287161 BigBlue7 said:

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In comment 16287152 Rich_Houston_1971 said: Quote: Then take JJ Mccarthy by moving up if you have to. McCarthy can read defenses better than the top two QB's being talked about. IIRC, a certain Michigan QB drafted in the lower rounds won a few SB's. The Michigan coaching staff didn't trust JJ to throw more than 9 times against Penn State - and you want to build your franchise around him?

You don't know they didn't trust him. They didn't need to because their run game was so dominant. I'm not advocating for MHJr over a QB, but your framing is misleading.

In comment 16287161 BigBlue7 said:

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In comment 16287152 Rich_Houston_1971 said: Quote: Then take JJ Mccarthy by moving up if you have to. McCarthy can read defenses better than the top two QB's being talked about. IIRC, a certain Michigan QB drafted in the lower rounds won a few SB's. The Michigan coaching staff didn't trust JJ to throw more than 9 times against Penn State - and you want to build your franchise around him?

I don't look at it like that, if anything, the Giants coaching staff should have taken that strategy even when they had Daniel Jones.

But back to McCarthy, that was a game where both offensive tackles were completely overmatched. And McCarthy was 7/8 with 0 turnovers, and a key pass interference call in the second half.

I don't disagree that some questions need to be answered in regards to McCarthy's game, but he's a young kid, who game has improved ten fold from last year, and if they Giants did not take a QB in round 1, I'd be ecstatic if they took McCarthy in late round 1 or early round 2.

People saying coaches didn’t trust him to throw against Penn State didn’t watch the game. The OTs were getting destroyed.

And hoping he’ll be there in the late first round is a mistake.

The QB is the most important position on the field, you grab your QB when the opportunity presents itself.

Which, should be next April via the draft.

Who is the guy?

I’ve only watched a few games, but Caleb scares me. Drake looks like he has good upside but may take more time. Jayden looks to me to be ready to make an impact but may have a lower ceiling. Penix feels too risky with the injuries, haven’t seen enough of McCarthy. Sanders? Has good touch, accurate, a gamer….but not top 3. I just have this feeling Caleb will bust. Hope I’m colossally wrong if he is the pick.

In comment 16287370 gary_from_chester said:

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Who is the guy? I’ve only watched a few games, but Caleb scares me. Drake looks like he has good upside but may take more time. Jayden looks to me to be ready to make an impact but may have a lower ceiling. Penix feels too risky with the injuries, haven’t seen enough of McCarthy. Sanders? Has good touch, accurate, a gamer….but not top 3. I just have this feeling Caleb will bust. Hope I’m colossally wrong if he is the pick.

He scares you? Based on what, Notre Dame?

In comment 16287370 gary_from_chester said:

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Who is the guy? I’ve only watched a few games, but Caleb scares me. Drake looks like he has good upside but may take more time. Jayden looks to me to be ready to make an impact but may have a lower ceiling. Penix feels too risky with the injuries, haven’t seen enough of McCarthy. Sanders? Has good touch, accurate, a gamer….but not top 3. I just have this feeling Caleb will bust. Hope I’m colossally wrong if he is the pick.

All of the names you mentioned are infinitely more talented than Jones.

What should scare you is sticking with Jones.

The 6th audition scares me.

...was if we didn't finish top 2.

Take the QB who can lead us and give us hope.

In comment 16286807 Jim in NH said:

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In comment 16286747 prdave73 said: Quote: Got to go with the sure thing. Imo, lately you don't know what you get picking a QB early anymore. I wouldn't mind drafting MH, then moving up to get a QB. You DON'T know what you're getting. Here are all QBs picked #1 or #2 since 2001: 2001 Michael Vick no SB win 2002 David Carr SB 46 Did not play 2003 Carson Palmer no SB win 2004 Eli Manning won SB 2005 Alex Smith no SB win 2007 JaMarcus Russell no SB win 2009 Matthew Stafford won SB 56 2010 Sam Bradford no SB win 2011 Cam Newton no SB win 2012 Andrew Luck (RGIII #2) no SB x 2 2015 Jamies Winston (Marcus Mariota #2) no SB x 2 2016 Jared Goff (Carson Wentz #2) Goff no SB, Wentz SB 52 Did not play 2017 Mitchell Trubisky at #2 no SB 2018 Baker Mayfield no SB 2019 Kyler Murray no SB win 2020 Joe Burrow no SB win 2021 Trevor Lawrence (Zach Wilson at #2) no SB wins

Same shit post, yet another different thread. 5+ years of literally one single post being repeated over and over and over.

Get new material.

and trading immediately within 1- 2 spots back for the QB. I wouldn't advocate for it. I think it is more important to get the QB we want and then take a WR later.

Seems like the biggest crap shoot in professional sports. How many No 1's in our life times have fizzled to complete busts? Then you have guys like Brady and Purdy ...

Whatever a great QB needs to possess to guarantee success - the NFL has not identified it yet or it would bee a lot easier picking one.

In comment 16287392 RCPhoenix said:

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In comment 16287370 gary_from_chester said: Quote: Who is the guy? I’ve only watched a few games, but Caleb scares me. Drake looks like he has good upside but may take more time. Jayden looks to me to be ready to make an impact but may have a lower ceiling. Penix feels too risky with the injuries, haven’t seen enough of McCarthy. Sanders? Has good touch, accurate, a gamer….but not top 3. I just have this feeling Caleb will bust. Hope I’m colossally wrong if he is the pick. He scares you? Based on what, Notre Dame?

The few times I’ve watched him, he tries to play ‘hero ball’. He can make some amazing plays but is turnover prone. This I think would be even more of an issue in the NFL.I don’t trust him to rein it in. I don’t see the same recklessness in the other top guys. Maybe I’m alone or in a very small minority, but I would be very concerned if he was the pick.