I do not think anyone can honestly say yes. So, why because we made the right move three times in a row, should we be prohibited from considering Daboll's future.
This is the worst Giants team I can ever think of and while, as of now, I think that last year earned Daboll a year three, this is getting out of hand and I am not sure how much confidence I have in him in the future. If this gets worse, and its hard to think how it can, I would not retain him solely because we made the RIGHT call about the three other incompetent head coaches we just fired after year 2.
I think the problem is our hiring of coaches not cutting loose obviously unqualified ones after two years.
In the final analysis, I do not think the fact that we have fired three bad coaches after year two is a real reason to keep Daboll after year 2. Again, he earned a lot of credit last year with that season and as of now I would vote to give him another chance with another QB, but a lot can happen between now and the end of the season that could change things and the Giants should not be afraid to fire him because they have done so with their last three coaches after two seasons.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
The only thing that really, really bothers me was just how bad the defense was. Losing our #1 pass rusher and #1 CB in the game hurt, but 600 yards???
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
You mean like Dan Reeves?
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
I guess where I am coming from is this often repeated line that Daboll is safe because we fired three other bad coaches after two years. It is a stupid reason. With that said, I still think he deserves a year three at this particular point.
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The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
You mean like Dan Reeves?
I’d take Dan Reeves over any of the bums we’ve had now, sure. He had a decent run with the Falcons after we got rid of him too.
"For fans, this is a really bad situation. It’s not like there are only two or three games left to play. There are eight, which is half the schedule. And with little to play for other than pride, and factoring in the remaining opponents and the situation at quarterback, many anticipate the losses to continue to pile up. The Giants could be looking at a disastrous 2-15, 3-14, or 4-13 type season. With each loss, the emotional toll will build. More and more fans will advocate for another complete overhaul simply for cathartic purposes.'
The loss and reaction are predictable.
I then go onto cover the pros and cons of firing the GM and coach. There are reasons to do so. And there are reasons not to do so.
What is the right move?
Preview: New York Giants at Dallas Cowboys, November 12, 2023 - ( New Window )
Judge was way in over his head, and so many posters vastly overrated his first season. Sure, they were in the mix for the division title, but for the worst division in NFL history. They were 6-10, and some posters were making SB plans for the next year.
Barring an epic meltdown, Daboll should be back. Maybe with a new coaching staff (personally, I’d start with Bobby Johnson), but he’s shown he can coach. He’s going to need to show he can keep the team together and focused over the last 8 weeks, but you can’t blame the chef if all he’s left to cook with is rotting food.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Who is this? Ron Rivera? LOL.
Hey let’s call Rex Ryan. Maybe we can Tom C back so I can watch his Giants teams start out 1-7 or collapse two years in a row in horrific defensive fashion.
Giants fans are playing overly dramatic and suffering from recency bias.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
Just wait until the Eagles games.
Agree with above about firing Bettcher and finding a new DC. Shurmur knows offense.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Daboll is 48 years old, and in the top half of oldest coaches in the league.
While they weren't playing "well" they played well enough to go 3-0 with before the Raiders game. Losing Taylor was a big deal. We would have gotten smoked yesterday, but we'd at least have a chance in the non-Eagles and non-Cowboys games.
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The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Who is this? Ron Rivera? LOL.
Hey let’s call Rex Ryan. Maybe we can Tom C back so I can watch his Giants teams start out 1-7 or collapse two years in a row in horrific defensive fashion.
Giants fans are playing overly dramatic and suffering from recency bias.
I don't know who, and I'm glad it's not my job to figure it out. But they need to move a mountain, and get a winner in here.
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The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Who is this? Ron Rivera? LOL.
Hey let’s call Rex Ryan. Maybe we can Tom C back so I can watch his Giants teams start out 1-7 or collapse two years in a row in horrific defensive fashion.
Giants fans are playing overly dramatic and suffering from recency bias.
we have been outscored the last two weeks 79-23. Yes, one was against a Cowboys team that I believe is just a sliver behind the Eagles in terms of a footbal team, but the other was to the Raiders who started a rookie QB, a new head coach, and an OC who never called a play in the NFL. That is not receny bias, that is disgusting.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
At some point we have to stop the merrygo round and stick with a long term gameplan (not you Eric just a general observation of BBI emotion). Everyone was onboard with a first time head coach and a first time GM, and to think you would not have peaks and valleys as each respective role must learn, execute and process wins and losses in the near term, then we are all in the wrong business. And many want to turn this over again? I shudder at how some of you approach your own aspirations when difficulty ensues.
You can't have it both ways. This organization rebooted with many folks in first time positions of authority, you have to live with the growth and potential of the new coach and front office and project better results over time or you continue the cycle of garbage we have now endured for over a decade.
For me this is different. I like the front office hires, I like Joe's overall strategy and thought process, I feel confident overtime the roster will improve, we can't compare this new front office to Howie Rosman or the Jones's at this point it is not fair.
We already know in some respects. Address the OL philosophies and better talent/depth. Get your future at QB if it’s there for taking.
What we will find out rest of way is on roster with who is a baller and who is a passenger.
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In comment 16286978 mittenedman said:
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The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Who is this? Ron Rivera? LOL.
Hey let’s call Rex Ryan. Maybe we can Tom C back so I can watch his Giants teams start out 1-7 or collapse two years in a row in horrific defensive fashion.
Giants fans are playing overly dramatic and suffering from recency bias.
we have been outscored the last two weeks 79-23. Yes, one was against a Cowboys team that I believe is just a sliver behind the Eagles in terms of a footbal team, but the other was to the Raiders who started a rookie QB, a new head coach, and an OC who never called a play in the NFL. That is not receny bias, that is disgusting.
Fire Martindale today then.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
I always look at how our fired coaches & coordinators do on the job market after they leave the Giants as a barometer. What do the NFL experts really think?
Shurmur had an OC job within days of his dismissal. He’s getting up there so maybe quasi retired but he is assisting Deion’s Colorado Buffalos now.
Freddie Kitchens is an offensive assistant with the U of S Carolina, as a counterweight. Total demotion. Similar to what happened to the demonstrably incompetent Eric Mangini.
I bet Daboll would not turn out anything like that and would find an HC or coordinator job at the NFL level quickly if he were axed. One of the realistic but remote possibilities out there is that he resigns after the season voluntarily and takes another HC position. That will be a massive blow to Mara’s ego.
The odd situation here is Jason Garrett, who I’ve always assumed was cruising to a $10mm a year Hc gig at Texas A&M or Oklahoma or something. But he’s broadcasting of all things.
Which is all to say that some Giants coaching selections have been odd reaches (McAdoo, Judge) but others were solid reasonable selections (Shurmur, I think Daboll).
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In comment 16286978 mittenedman said:
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The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
Who is this? Ron Rivera? LOL.
Hey let’s call Rex Ryan. Maybe we can Tom C back so I can watch his Giants teams start out 1-7 or collapse two years in a row in horrific defensive fashion.
Giants fans are playing overly dramatic and suffering from recency bias.
we have been outscored the last two weeks 79-23. Yes, one was against a Cowboys team that I believe is just a sliver behind the Eagles in terms of a footbal team, but the other was to the Raiders who started a rookie QB, a new head coach, and an OC who never called a play in the NFL. That is not receny bias, that is disgusting.
In 6 of our 10 games this year, the Giants have been outscored by at least 15 points. 5 of those games we lost by at least 3 scores.
It would have been interesting to see if DG would have gotten and extra year as well.
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it's really bad right now. But it's not worse than it was at the end of the Judge years. We got smoked by terrible Bears and Washington teams at the end of 2021.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
At some point we have to stop the merrygo round and stick with a long term gameplan (not you Eric just a general observation of BBI emotion). Everyone was onboard with a first time head coach and a first time GM, and to think you would not have peaks and valleys as each respective role must learn, execute and process wins and losses in the near term, then we are all in the wrong business. And many want to turn this over again? I shudder at how some of you approach your own aspirations when difficulty ensues.
You can't have it both ways. This organization rebooted with many folks in first time positions of authority, you have to live with the growth and potential of the new coach and front office and project better results over time or you continue the cycle of garbage we have now endured for over a decade.
For me this is different. I like the front office hires, I like Joe's overall strategy and thought process, I feel confident overtime the roster will improve, we can't compare this new front office to Howie Rosman or the Jones's at this point it is not fair.
This is a very good point, not because Howie Roseman or the Jones's are good right now, because they are, but because both stunk for a long time and because of their situations (roseman is not fireable and Jones owns the team) they have grown into their roles. Roseman has been the GM for 15 years. He did not sniff a super bowl until 2017--8 years into his term. The Cowboys besides the Johnson and Parcells years where they were running personnel were awful. So, the lesson to be learned from the Eagles and Cowboys is patience. And that is why at this point I am not firing anyone.
"For fans, this is a really bad situation. It’s not like there are only two or three games left to play. There are eight, which is half the schedule. And with little to play for other than pride, and factoring in the remaining opponents and the situation at quarterback, many anticipate the losses to continue to pile up. The Giants could be looking at a disastrous 2-15, 3-14, or 4-13 type season. With each loss, the emotional toll will build. More and more fans will advocate for another complete overhaul simply for cathartic purposes.'
The loss and reaction are predictable.
I then go onto cover the pros and cons of firing the GM and coach. There are reasons to do so. And there are reasons not to do so.
What is the right move? Preview: New York Giants at Dallas Cowboys, November 12, 2023 - ( New Window )
Do you go into when 25,000 people show up for the last few games of this year and how that has always affected this ownership? This is historical suckiness that is hard to compare to just being a bad team.
I also get the sense that everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong.
However, there is no denying that this season is a catastrophe, outside of the possible chance to select a franchise-altering QB.
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In comment 16286974 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
it's really bad right now. But it's not worse than it was at the end of the Judge years. We got smoked by terrible Bears and Washington teams at the end of 2021.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
At some point we have to stop the merrygo round and stick with a long term gameplan (not you Eric just a general observation of BBI emotion). Everyone was onboard with a first time head coach and a first time GM, and to think you would not have peaks and valleys as each respective role must learn, execute and process wins and losses in the near term, then we are all in the wrong business. And many want to turn this over again? I shudder at how some of you approach your own aspirations when difficulty ensues.
You can't have it both ways. This organization rebooted with many folks in first time positions of authority, you have to live with the growth and potential of the new coach and front office and project better results over time or you continue the cycle of garbage we have now endured for over a decade.
For me this is different. I like the front office hires, I like Joe's overall strategy and thought process, I feel confident overtime the roster will improve, we can't compare this new front office to Howie Rosman or the Jones's at this point it is not fair.
This is a very good point, not because Howie Roseman or the Jones's are good right now, because they are, but because both stunk for a long time and because of their situations (roseman is not fireable and Jones owns the team) they have grown into their roles. Roseman has been the GM for 15 years. He did not sniff a super bowl until 2017--8 years into his term. The Cowboys besides the Johnson and Parcells years where they were running personnel were awful. So, the lesson to be learned from the Eagles and Cowboys is patience. And that is why at this point I am not firing anyone.
Rossman also hasn't had a problem firing a coach after a bad year. Chip Kelly and Doug Pederson got the axe after their first really crap seasons.
I also get the sense that everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong.
However, there is no denying that this season is a catastrophe, outside of the possible chance to select a franchise-altering QB.
I believe this as well and that is why I made sure to say that I am all for giving Daboll another season at this point. I just can't stand the line well he has to stay because we fired three other coaches.
Having a shot at drafting a franchise altering QB is/was the only way they were going to get rid of some of the guys on this roster and get the re-build that Schoen and Daboll really want (IMO).
I have several other games that I will blow off....again that is not me. I typically buy my wife a nice gift prior to the season because she does not have me for Sundays in season........Tell me am I crazy?
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In comment 16287013 NYGiantFL007 said:
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In comment 16286974 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
it's really bad right now. But it's not worse than it was at the end of the Judge years. We got smoked by terrible Bears and Washington teams at the end of 2021.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
At some point we have to stop the merrygo round and stick with a long term gameplan (not you Eric just a general observation of BBI emotion). Everyone was onboard with a first time head coach and a first time GM, and to think you would not have peaks and valleys as each respective role must learn, execute and process wins and losses in the near term, then we are all in the wrong business. And many want to turn this over again? I shudder at how some of you approach your own aspirations when difficulty ensues.
You can't have it both ways. This organization rebooted with many folks in first time positions of authority, you have to live with the growth and potential of the new coach and front office and project better results over time or you continue the cycle of garbage we have now endured for over a decade.
For me this is different. I like the front office hires, I like Joe's overall strategy and thought process, I feel confident overtime the roster will improve, we can't compare this new front office to Howie Rosman or the Jones's at this point it is not fair.
This is a very good point, not because Howie Roseman or the Jones's are good right now, because they are, but because both stunk for a long time and because of their situations (roseman is not fireable and Jones owns the team) they have grown into their roles. Roseman has been the GM for 15 years. He did not sniff a super bowl until 2017--8 years into his term. The Cowboys besides the Johnson and Parcells years where they were running personnel were awful. So, the lesson to be learned from the Eagles and Cowboys is patience. And that is why at this point I am not firing anyone.
Rossman also hasn't had a problem firing a coach after a bad year. Chip Kelly and Doug Pederson got the axe after their first really crap seasons.
he fired Andy Reid(!!!!) after one disappointing year and one really bad year (with lots of injuries). So, yeah, he makes move.
Having a shot at drafting a franchise altering QB is/was the only way they were going to get rid of some of the guys on this roster and get the re-build that Schoen and Daboll really want (IMO).
They will pick the wrong one...ala D'arnaurd(Sp) or Zach Wilson, or so many other flops
If you guys could go back in time to December 2017, 2019, 2021, we were having the exact same conversations. No one here wanted to keep any of the GMs or coaches. And yes, it was really bad. People didn't even come out to watch Eli's last game.
Yes - and who made that happen?
Of course, we can't have a strong personality and winner like Harbaugh. That doesn't work here. Who needs a great running game and a tough D? Not a fit.
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My gut feeling is we have the right front office people. Not just Schoen, but the people he brought in. I'm also nervous about Mara getting another crack... yes, it can get worse.
I also get the sense that everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong.
However, there is no denying that this season is a catastrophe, outside of the possible chance to select a franchise-altering QB.
I believe this as well and that is why I made sure to say that I am all for giving Daboll another season at this point. I just can't stand the line well he has to stay because we fired three other coaches.
Hard convos have to be had with Daboll about the things that are wrong beyond what people react to as “optics” or “scoreboards”.
Bobby Johnson is a big one. Their OL philosophy and choices in training camp showed out to be total junk.
But Daboll also gets say after last year to pound table if he wants certain things discarded or implemented given Year 3 could be a sink or swim year.
I have several other games that I will blow off....again that is not me. I typically buy my wife a nice gift prior to the season because she does not have me for Sundays in season........Tell me am I crazy?
No, you are not crazy. Fans are tuning out the team. The stopped showing up for games in November and December for most of the past decade. This is nothing new.
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was the only way forward for this team.
Having a shot at drafting a franchise altering QB is/was the only way they were going to get rid of some of the guys on this roster and get the re-build that Schoen and Daboll really want (IMO).
They will pick the wrong one...ala D'arnaurd(Sp) or Zach Wilson, or so many other flops
They already picked the wrong one once.
Admitting failure and moving is on is the only way forward.
It gives fans the only thing they could have at this point....hope.
If you guys could go back in time to December 2017, 2019, 2021, we were having the exact same conversations. No one here wanted to keep any of the GMs or coaches. And yes, it was really bad. People didn't even come out to watch Eli's last game.
People wanted Fassel fired after the SF playoff debacle! I remember the hysteria here.
People also forget how ugly some of the Coughlin seasons were after the second SB win. Just ugly football, especially on defense. Wasted a few good years we had from Eli.
1. He inherited a lame duck general manager.
2. He dealt with the covid restrictions as a first time head coach.
3. He lost his QB coming off a win against Philly (imagine that) and they started Glennon & Fromm down the stretch of a 2021 season.
4. He inherited the QB.
Again, he needed to go. But his entry point was awful.
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Dude's on fire and the optics are mega bad. Only thing "saving" him is Michigan is a top notch team and program right now.
Yes - and who made that happen?
Of course, we can't have a strong personality and winner like Harbaugh. That doesn't work here. Who needs a great running game and a tough D? Not a fit.
Address your concerns in a letter, and please include a self-stamped envelope for your reply, to Mr. John Mara, NYG, yada yada.
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In comment 16287036 Eric from BBI said:
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My gut feeling is we have the right front office people. Not just Schoen, but the people he brought in. I'm also nervous about Mara getting another crack... yes, it can get worse.
I also get the sense that everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong.
However, there is no denying that this season is a catastrophe, outside of the possible chance to select a franchise-altering QB.
I believe this as well and that is why I made sure to say that I am all for giving Daboll another season at this point. I just can't stand the line well he has to stay because we fired three other coaches.
Hard convos have to be had with Daboll about the things that are wrong beyond what people react to as “optics” or “scoreboards”.
Bobby Johnson is a big one. Their OL philosophy and choices in training camp showed out to be total junk.
But Daboll also gets say after last year to pound table if he wants certain things discarded or implemented given Year 3 could be a sink or swim year.
But if we draft a new franchise QB and Daboll gets fired after year 3, we get back in the bad cycle again
Memories get fuzzy with fans for some reason.
The narrative around Coughlin was he had clearly lost it, right or wrong.
We keep changing GMs, HCs, OCs, DCs. Everyone yells 'hooray!" and that lasts about a year.