I do not think anyone can honestly say yes. So, why because we made the right move three times in a row, should we be prohibited from considering Daboll's future.
This is the worst Giants team I can ever think of and while, as of now, I think that last year earned Daboll a year three, this is getting out of hand and I am not sure how much confidence I have in him in the future. If this gets worse, and its hard to think how it can, I would not retain him solely because we made the RIGHT call about the three other incompetent head coaches we just fired after year 2.
I think the problem is our hiring of coaches not cutting loose obviously unqualified ones after two years.
In the final analysis, I do not think the fact that we have fired three bad coaches after year two is a real reason to keep Daboll after year 2. Again, he earned a lot of credit last year with that season and as of now I would vote to give him another chance with another QB, but a lot can happen between now and the end of the season that could change things and the Giants should not be afraid to fire him because they have done so with their last three coaches after two seasons.
With Shurmur specifically we had just drafted a young QB who seemed to match up well with him.
Even though there were certain red flags with Judge and McAdoo, you hired young first time head coaches, there were going to be bumps and they were going to need to develop. Perhaps the reality is that we had too quick of a trigger finger on everyone except Dave Gettleman...
Quote:
In comment 16287041 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 16287036 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
My gut feeling is we have the right front office people. Not just Schoen, but the people he brought in. I'm also nervous about Mara getting another crack... yes, it can get worse.
I also get the sense that everything that could go wrong, has gone wrong.
However, there is no denying that this season is a catastrophe, outside of the possible chance to select a franchise-altering QB.
I believe this as well and that is why I made sure to say that I am all for giving Daboll another season at this point. I just can't stand the line well he has to stay because we fired three other coaches.
Hard convos have to be had with Daboll about the things that are wrong beyond what people react to as “optics” or “scoreboards”.
Bobby Johnson is a big one. Their OL philosophy and choices in training camp showed out to be total junk.
But Daboll also gets say after last year to pound table if he wants certain things discarded or implemented given Year 3 could be a sink or swim year.
But if we draft a new franchise QB and Daboll gets fired after year 3, we get back in the bad cycle again
A young QB pick up high and semi competitive football next season buys this regime two years.
I believe Schoen and Daboll are going to tell Mara this precisely is what they want and need.
Not certain his ego can walk away from Michigan he does not have to. But if we paid him enough he just might.
Today's media are basically frauds laced with shock jocks. Thier opinions wil matter less of he turns us around. The problem is Michigan is home for him. Once he leaves a serious heartstring tied to his legacy is severed.
If you guys could go back in time to December 2017, 2019, 2021, we were having the exact same conversations. No one here wanted to keep any of the GMs or coaches. And yes, it was really bad. People didn't even come out to watch Eli's last game.
Eric..due respect but 2 things here.
1. If my boss called me into say this is as bad as it gets and you are in charge, if I bring up what happened in 1970 and how bad it was then? We are comparing ourselves to the worst of the worst?
In fairness, I was fortunate to go to 3 Super Bowl wins..Pasadena where we beat Elway, Wide Right Gulf War beating the bills, and the Phoenix win Tyree helmet catch game. I will never forget the joyousness......but in some many ways sports as in business is a what have you done for me lately story. What kind of price are we paying for those joys?
Judge was a fraud. He cared more about proper cleats and what undershirts players should wear than actual wins.
I don't get the revisionist history on Judge. He has even been mocked on his return to New England.
Judge was a babbling mess by the time he left here.
They were and he did, but it doesn't change the fact that his situation sucked. Judge went 4-2 against the NFC East in 2020 and beat Philly in 2021.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
And, exactly, who do you have in mind?
I just want a coach that doesn't need to have excuses and can elevate talent and can adjust when the NFL figures them out. I haven't seen it here in a long time.
Quote:
The problem is who we’re hiring, not that we’re firing people after 2 years. None of the guys we got rid of did a fucking thing afterwards, they stink.
The Giants have to open their check book and get a big name coach in here who has some winning credibility. Even if he’s old. Enough with trying to find a young 20 year coach you can build around. You have to restore credibility.
And, exactly, who do you have in mind?
It's not my job to find the next head coach. It's Mara's and Schoen's. If they need help managing their cloud costs, they can call me.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
Agreed. What key players missed time with injuries in 2021? Gates. And Jones missed the last three games. There is no way any team could survive the constantly growing number of injuries to players, both starters and guys filling in for starter that the Giants have dealt with:
Jones, Taylor, Waller, Thomas, Neal, Schmitz, Ezeudu, Bredeson, McKethan, Brightwell, Gano, Gray, Peart, Lemieux, Jackson, Ojulari. Now add in Banks, Flott, and Thibideaux. With the exception of Peart, Lemieux and maybe McKethan (though he was made a starter in week 2), those were all guys expected to play important roles this year. At one point they had two PS elevations playing on the O line along with two other backups playing out of position. For a while their O line was the least experienced in the history of the NFL, at least since the merger. Neal had more starts than the rest of the O line combined. Let that sink in for a second.
That's 2 QBs, your LT, RT, C, 2 starting guards (if you count McKethan), two backup O linemen hurt while starters were out, 2 backup RBs, your kicker, two starting CBS, the 2 starting edge rushers. No team could survive that.
The 2021 team was bad, this team is cursed.
Those were lean years offensively. But we still had good enough defenses those years that kept a young me interested in being a NYG fan. Current product is putrid compared to the 90s.
He won 3 games.
Judge was a hot mess. He was not ready to be a coach. Garrett being forced on him was the best thing to happen to him. Everyone wanted to blame Garrett for Jones drop off and lack of aggressiveness -- the fact is he and Kitchens (fucking joke ) and later Daboll figured out you can not have someone who just leads the league in fumbling and win a lot of football games in the NFL.
Daboll gets a shot with his QB. The team is bad but comeon Tommy Devito?
The only reason Daboll is getting a third year, while the others didn't, is the 'equity' he built last year.
Daboll has been as much a part of the problem as anything or any player. Of all 32 teams, did any team look as unprepared to start the season as the Giants? It took us seven quarters to score a single point.
He'll likely be back, and maybe that's the right call. But at this point, there's just as much risk in retaining him as there is in rebooting.
There are? Care to name some of them?
He won 3 games.
Judge was a hot mess. He was not ready to be a coach. Garrett being forced on him was the best thing to happen to him. Everyone wanted to blame Garrett for Jones drop off and lack of aggressiveness -- the fact is he and Kitchens (fucking joke ) and later Daboll figured out you can not have someone who just leads the league in fumbling and win a lot of football games in the NFL.
Daboll gets a shot with his QB. The team is bad but comeon Tommy Devito?
Shurmur did not get to pick his QB. He wanted Josh Allen year prior. Gettleman had total decision making control on draft during Shurmurs tenure.
The only reason Daboll is getting a third year, while the others didn't, is the 'equity' he built last year.
Daboll has been as much a part of the problem as anything or any player. Of all 32 teams, did any team look as unprepared to start the season as the Giants? It took us seven quarters to score a single point.
He'll likely be back, and maybe that's the right call. But at this point, there's just as much risk in retaining him as there is in rebooting.
A healthy D? Missing their best CB. Williams traded, Ojulari first game back, then Banks, Flott and Thibideaux all get hurt. So, compared to the first game, missing two key players at the start, losing three key players just before or after halftime, another starter playing part-time.
Not to mention they were on the field for about 2/3rd of the first half, in part because the offense couldn't get a first down (2 in the half?)
Oher teams have had QB issues? What other team is starting an undrafted rookie from the practice squad at QB.
Quote:
over Eli Manning who was making 20 mil that year and was benched in week 2 despite not playing bad.
He won 3 games.
Judge was a hot mess. He was not ready to be a coach. Garrett being forced on him was the best thing to happen to him. Everyone wanted to blame Garrett for Jones drop off and lack of aggressiveness -- the fact is he and Kitchens (fucking joke ) and later Daboll figured out you can not have someone who just leads the league in fumbling and win a lot of football games in the NFL.
Daboll gets a shot with his QB. The team is bad but comeon Tommy Devito?
Shurmur did not get to pick his QB. He wanted Josh Allen year prior. Gettleman had total decision making control on draft during Shurmurs tenure.
I don't believe this. And I would like you to prove it. It is always funny any time a Gaints fan wants to be right about Eli or about some loser coach -- they always have have to pull a Mahomes or a Josh Allen out their ass. Funny how I never hear about them wanting to draft Josh Rosen or something or they never seem to pick a good QB at their new NFL job.
I distinctly remember Chris Collinsworth saying over the air that when he talked to Shurm -- he liked the Barkley pick because instead of having someone sit at QB -- he could get a playmaker on offense.
McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge weren't playing with nearly the hand Daboll is playing with. In each of those situations, there were fireable offenses that go beyond anything Daboll has done and (the most important fact) misalignment between HC and GM.
McAdoo/Reese was botched from the boat trip to the benching of Eli, Shurmur/Gettleman failed two years in a row (5-11 in 2018 and 4-12 in 2019), and Judge failed two years in a row (6-10 in 2020 and 4-11 in 2021) and punched his and Gettleman's tickets with the QB sneak bullshit.
Giants fans calling for another house cleaning are the problem with the fanbase, tbh, and I hope they find another team to root for in 2025. By even recent standards, Daboll/Schoen deserve that.
Yes. Also had convo with someone tied to Oregon back few yrs ago who said was well thought of Giants indeed took Barkley as they had eyes for a Herbert and thought he was coming out early the year they took Jones.
Quote:
Shurmur wanted Allen. He also liked Jones and Haskins a great deal, among others.
Yes. Also had convo with someone tied to Oregon back few yrs ago who said was well thought of Giants indeed took Barkley as they had eyes for a Herbert and thought he was coming out early the year they took Jones.
Yep. I was told on draft night, "How do you think the fanbase will respond to any position other than QB?". A few days before that it wasn't the case.
So, I just don't think Daboll suddenly got amnesia and forgot how to coach.
I mean, what do you do when everything that can possibly go wrong, goes wrong. This is what a football avalanche looks like.
As I wrote last night, he's playing a QB who couldn't start for James Madison University right now. And the OL is completely broken. NO TEAM WINS IN THE NFL with these current circumstances.
Bringing up the D is a reasonable issue to raise. Once X shot his mouth off last week, you knew there were serious cracks on that side of the ball. I don't think they are check out, but they are going into these games right now absolutely knowing they have nearly a 0% chance of winning.
Quote:
In comment 16287301 JonC said:
Quote:
Shurmur wanted Allen. He also liked Jones and Haskins a great deal, among others.
Yes. Also had convo with someone tied to Oregon back few yrs ago who said was well thought of Giants indeed took Barkley as they had eyes for a Herbert and thought he was coming out early the year they took Jones.
Yep. I was told on draft night, "How do you think the fanbase will respond to any position other than QB?". A few days before that it wasn't the case.
Yea he probably stayed put knowing that the Giants were trying to draft him.
But seriously, why hasn't Mcadoo this QB savant able to do much of anything with Sam Darnold ? I mean he goes to the 9ers and wins the back up spot and meant jettisoning a 2 #1 pick player. I'd actually be curious to see him play there. THen they play a PJ Walker who is well what PJ Walker is.
Not certain his ego can walk away from Michigan he does not have to. But if we paid him enough he just might.
Today's media are basically frauds laced with shock jocks. Thier opinions wil matter less of he turns us around. The problem is Michigan is home for him. Once he leaves a serious heartstring tied to his legacy is severed.
I'm not a fan of Harbaugh. Seems he causes conflict each place he goes. I'd much rather have them hire from the Shannahan tree if they were to make a coaching change.
I think the losing is exposing the players who aren't part of the solution going forward. They need to get rid of that rot and fix the line and the QB situation.
🤮
Memories get fuzzy with fans for some reason.
The narrative around Coughlin was he had clearly lost it, right or wrong.
We keep changing GMs, HCs, OCs, DCs. Everyone yells 'hooray!" and that lasts about a year.
Quote:
In comment 16286974 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
it's really bad right now. But it's not worse than it was at the end of the Judge years. We got smoked by terrible Bears and Washington teams at the end of 2021.
If we get smoked by the Patriots, then we're on Judge level.
At some point we have to stop the merrygo round and stick with a long term gameplan (not you Eric just a general observation of BBI emotion). Everyone was onboard with a first time head coach and a first time GM, and to think you would not have peaks and valleys as each respective role must learn, execute and process wins and losses in the near term, then we are all in the wrong business. And many want to turn this over again? I shudder at how some of you approach your own aspirations when difficulty ensues.
You can't have it both ways. This organization rebooted with many folks in first time positions of authority, you have to live with the growth and potential of the new coach and front office and project better results over time or you continue the cycle of garbage we have now endured for over a decade.
For me this is different. I like the front office hires, I like Joe's overall strategy and thought process, I feel confident overtime the roster will improve, we can't compare this new front office to Howie Rosman or the Jones's at this point it is not fair.
This is a very good point, not because Howie Roseman or the Jones's are good right now, because they are, but because both stunk for a long time and because of their situations (roseman is not fireable and Jones owns the team) they have grown into their roles. Roseman has been the GM for 15 years. He did not sniff a super bowl until 2017--8 years into his term. The Cowboys besides the Johnson and Parcells years where they were running personnel were awful. So, the lesson to be learned from the Eagles and Cowboys is patience. And that is why at this point I am not firing anyone.
Yeah but you are forgetting how competitive the Eagles were from 2002 onwards through 2017. They were a perennial contender, outside of the odd down year.