TERRIBLE OWNERSHIP!
I’ve been a Giants’ fan since 1961. First 3 years we were in the NFL Championship game. When you’re a kid, that captures your heart and you are a fan for life. But I, like most of us, have paid for that fandom over and over! Even the 4 SB wins do not make up for the vast periods of time where we have been non-competitive, out of it by mid-season! I keep trying to figure out why and I keep coming back to occam’s razor: “the simplest answer is usually the right one”. Let’s face it guys/gals, if Pete Rozelle had not recommended George Young there is serious doubt we would have 4 SB wins. Young and his GM tree got these wins. On their own, the Maras have been a disaster…at least in my lifetime. As much as he had a great reputation and acknowledging his contributions to the NFL, Wellington was a terrible owner and John is no better. I am referring to his football acumen in terms of building a team.
I can easily get into details but I think most of you, as Giants fans, would agree something has to happen at the top of this organization to change this around. We also know that there is tremendous nepotism within the Giants’ front office, people who keep their jobs long beyond their expiry date. I am not sure what has gone on this year but, again, there are common issues that have existed for a long time that are not addressed. 1) the offensive line-no need to go into detail here but almost 14 years of failing to build even an average line speaks to something within the front office that needs to be fixed, has needed to be fixed and has been ignored. 2) injuries-we lead or are at the top of the league every year in man games lost to injury. Maybe it’s time to move away from Ronnie Barnes? Strength and conditioning program or maybe we just draft players who are soft but we sure seem to have guys that get hurt a lot!
What I do know is this front office has to be examined and the deadwood removed and that starts with the owner. Let Mara pay the bills but that’s it! Same with Tisch. Maybe you have to do what Jerruh finally did and get someone like Will McClay in charge of personnel and drafting. You can’t argue that Dallas knows talent! They know offensive linemen!
I am not sure if Dabes/Joe are the answer but they have to be given a fair chance to fix this. This two and out shit has to stop! Remember, it took GY six years before we saw a turnaround!
Did ownership have a role in retaining Jones, Barkley, Shepard, etc.? We'll probably never know.
The weird thing is the injury situation is beyond incomprehensible at this point. It's almost every year... for a decade now. Every team gets hit with injuries but not like this every year. (And it's not the field)
Do I think Mara walked into Schoen's office and told him to retain Jones, Barkley and Shepherd or else? Absolutely not. Do I think Joe Schoen understands what Mara wants and he tries to manage that? Yes I do.
It is heartwarming that the Giants take care of their own. That comes with a cost to doing what is necessary to compete in a league where competitors are not restrained by that concern.
Did ownership have a role in retaining Jones, Barkley, Shepard, etc.? We'll probably never know.
The weird thing is the injury situation is beyond incomprehensible at this point. It's almost every year... for a decade now. Every team gets hit with injuries but not like this every year. (And it's not the field)
Teams that suck in football get hurt more. The field has become a scapegoat.
Go to any local high school game where you see teams that are overmatched. Who do you see that walks away with more injuries?
Ownership has been quiet and finally let the front office do its thing. It's not their job to have football acumen. It's their job to care and be good custodians and let the people they hire have a chance to do their thing. This isn't on them atm.
Did ownership have a role in retaining Jones, Barkley, Shepard, etc.? We'll probably never know.
The weird thing is the injury situation is beyond incomprehensible at this point. It's almost every year... for a decade now. Every team gets hit with injuries but not like this every year. (And it's not the field)
Ownership complaint is a joke. Please stop..
The biigest issue with the current situation is we were better than expected TOO soon. Schoen and Daboll were still handcuffed by the cap and made moves to clear that up some and were stuck with Jones FA and Barkley's FA, following a playoff year.
I truly believe we were a bit overconfident in the "process" and counted on Jones being Alex Smith for a few years while the rest of the cap issue was dealt with and we had some more drafts. Then we were crippled with injuries and bad decisions:
Waller- seemed like a possible steal and then he showed his injury history was not history but reality.
Oline- which was still being pulled together had injuries hit at every position, eating into depth and hitting our already barely filled G positions- then we had the T's go down... Anyone who thinks this team would be better with a different QB (this season) is ignoring the fact that we have been absolutely decimated at Oline. Our entire OLine is a ragtag group of injuries and no talent. How bad?? Justin Pugh is starting at LG and even started at LT - and was an improvement over Ezedu and Peart... The Oline has to be fixed- and yes, it means adding more talent again.
Playmakers- Hyatt will be a deep threat but we have no proof yet he will be a #1 and we can't ignore the knocks on him coming out. Slayton should have been gone years ago. Shepherd has been gone but for some reason has a roster spot. Hodgins came crashing back to earth- which we should have expected.
Defense- the MOST overrated portion of our team. We lack killer instincts and some of that is tied directly to Wink! We give up plays when we have teams against the rope and we allow long drives that eat up energy and time regularly. We should have beaten the Jets but we allowed late game plays and earlier in the game one long TD pass off a short pass where our team showed no tackling ability and a true lack of heart (and that was also evident against Seattle-heading in the same direction of the field and roughly around the same time in that game). We are soft at the wrong moments..
This team reminds me a LOT of 1983 and of course 2003. Seems like an every 20 year occurrence. We have to right the ship and we need some luck (injuries) to make a change in the right direction next year.
We have some cornerstones:
Thomas
Lawrence
some build with:
KT
JMS
Banks
Hyatt
McFadden
some possible long term contributors (who need to improve some):
Bellinger
Neal
Ezedu (needs to show a lot)
Flott
Davidson
Riley
So the cupboard isn't bare bare but, it surely isn't full. This offseason means we need:
Franchise QB
Oline additions
Playmaker additions
Depth across the board.
2024 needs to be about the building and 2025 about the steps forward...
Chris Mara, who owns as much of the team as John, was in the NYG locker room after the playoff win, and was quoted as saying (of Jones), "We have our guy".
The next "Mara" owner/president/CEO, Tim McD, has a high personnel position in this front office. He was on the recent USC scouting trip with Schoen and Brandon Brown. Anyone imagining Tim McD to be a potted plant has not made good use of time on planet Earth.
The weird thing is the injury situation is beyond incomprehensible at this point. It's almost every year... for a decade now. Every team gets hit with injuries but not like this every year. (And it's not the field)
Eric, I do believe the strength and conditioning program contributes significantly to the soft tissue injuries.
Not referring to an ACL where someone gets rolled up on. However, an ACL injury where a player is just cutting is unacceptable to me.
The crazy number of hamstring injuries are also unacceptable. Are their quads over developed and blowing out the hamstrings?
Youse fools haven't a freakin clue as to bad ownership.
IN 2022!
Do I think Mara walked into Schoen's office and told him to retain Jones, Barkley and Shepherd or else? Absolutely not. Do I think Joe Schoen understands what Mara wants and he tries to manage that? Yes I do.
It is heartwarming that the Giants take care of their own. That comes with a cost to doing what is necessary to compete in a league where competitors are not restrained by that concern.
"WE'RE BACK!"
-John Mara, Jan. 15, 2023
Any chance of moving away from Jones and Barkley after that was gone. People act like there needed to be some kind of decree from Mara, when in reality all it would really take is reading the tea leaves and having literally one postseason meeting - which undoubtedly took place. As it should, he is the owner.
Everything he's said about Jones and Barkley both before Schoen/Daboll and since has been clear as a bell. They weren't going anywhere after last year.
Youse fools haven't a freakin clue as to bad ownership.
Who's more of the fool?...
I don't think John Mara is calling specific player personnel shots but it's in CM's and TMcD's job descriptions to do so. Any indication that they are *not* the problem? Do they have those jobs for life regardless of results?
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Why did I even open this and then respond?
Youse fools haven't a freakin clue as to bad ownership.
Who's more of the fool?...
Yeah, if you think the Giants ownership is terrible, then it is you.
That is like children lashing out at their parents because they didn't get a lollipop.
They are certainly not close to perfect and make mistakes, but I am not sure you know what "terrible" is if you think Mara/Tisch are terrible owners.
Chris Mara, who owns as much of the team as John, was in the NYG locker room after the playoff win, and was quoted as saying (of Jones), "We have our guy".
The next "Mara" owner/president/CEO, Tim McD, has a high personnel position in this front office. He was on the recent USC scouting trip with Schoen and Brandon Brown. Anyone imagining Tim McD to be a potted plant has not made good use of time on planet Earth.
The owner literally said at the press conference that we have done as much to screw up Daniel as possible, hinting that he thinks he was salvageable.
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In comment 16287278 section125 said:
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Why did I even open this and then respond?
Youse fools haven't a freakin clue as to bad ownership.
Who's more of the fool?...
Yeah, if you think the Giants ownership is terrible, then it is you.
That is like children lashing out at their parents because they didn't get a lollipop.
They are certainly not close to perfect and make mistakes, but I am not sure you know what "terrible" is if you think Mara/Tisch are terrible owners.
Why wouldn't you give your kids a lollipop?
I don't think John Mara is calling specific player personnel shots but it's in CM's and TMcD's job descriptions to do so. Any indication that they are *not* the problem? Do they have those jobs for life regardless of results?
THIS....
But, if their focus is on being a profitable business, then no, they are not terrible at all. The value of the franchise and annual revenues are proof of not being terrible.
The question then to ask: is the front office focus the same as yours? Of course not.. and that's one reason you're not in the front office.
Do I think Mara walked into Schoen's office and told him to retain Jones, Barkley and Shepherd or else? Absolutely not. Do I think Joe Schoen understands what Mara wants and he tries to manage that? Yes I do.
It is heartwarming that the Giants take care of their own. That comes with a cost to doing what is necessary to compete in a league where competitors are not restrained by that concern.
I don't care how heartwarming it is and four SBs hasn't done anything for this organization. It just seems like nobody wants to come here. I mentioned what the Lions were doing and immediately someone says we have 4 TBs and they haven't won shit. I mean who cares? They're winning now and they have a great and devoted fanbase. I do agree with the OP. The Mara family has been successful in spite of themselves. There is something definitely wrong with the culture
I don't care how heartwarming it is and four SBs hasn't done anything for this organization. It just seems like nobody wants to come here. I mentioned what the Lions were doing and immediately someone says we have 4 TBs and they haven't won shit. I mean who cares? They're winning now and they have a great and devoted fanbase. I do agree with the OP. The Mara family has been successful in spite of themselves. There is something definitely wrong with the culture
If it wasn't for Pete Rozelle stepping in and throwing the Giants a life preserver in George Young, the Giants would be exactly what the Lions have been since 1957.
Left to their own devices, the Maras are not capable of running a successful football operation.
Young built the backbone for the 80s and 90s, his deputy Ernie Accorsi modernized it and built for the foundation for the 2000s. He handed off to Reese who added some significant pieces for the 2007 and 11 teams, though the foundation was beginning to show cracks by then. When Reese's time was up, what did the organization do? They let Accorsi pick the new GM.
I don't go back as far as you. I started watching the Giants in the mid 70s. We have both seen some god awful football over the decades but we have also won 4 SB. Perhaps the current season after season of bad football is somewhat easier to accept when I can remember those 4 championships. Unfortunately younger fans don't have those memories to fall back on. I guess I am willing to accept that nothing is guaranteed and try to be patient-as much as it sucks. I believe they are looking for away to make thinks better, more consistent. I also think the Maras and Tisches hurt like we do.
But I'll give an example. I used to be a big NY Knicks fan. In the late 90s I realized that their owner was destroying the team. I had no control and he doesn't know who I am let alone care. So I jumped off crazy train and have never looked back. Perhaps you should give that a try.
Who was going to play QB and RB this season to make us look competitive in either game against Dallas?
I don't go back as far as you. I started watching the Giants in the mid 70s. We have both seen some god awful football over the decades but we have also won 4 SB. Perhaps the current season after season of bad football is somewhat easier to accept when I can remember those 4 championships. Unfortunately younger fans don't have those memories to fall back on.
You're undoubtedly correct, the Maras are going to own the Giants forever, but that doesn't mean we're not allowed to be annoyed by their attempts at being a football family in all aspects.
I'm old enough to remember Brent Musberger pointing out that Wellington and Tim weren't on speaking terms during the Super Bowl XXI locker room trophy presentation. The Mara family was pure dysfunction for years before that, and as I mentioned previously, only George Young, an actual football man, rescued the franchise and saved the Maras from themselves.
It's a fine legend that the Maras are one of the NFL's cornerstone families, but Wellington forgot how to build a football team before the merger and as a family they collectively ran the franchise into the ground for almost two decades. John is a lawyer by trade who hasn't ever had to work a day in his life.
Part of me says they should just go all in on the family Mara and make Tim McDonnell the next GM. Just do it, show the world you know what you're doing.
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When you create an environment that values loyalty and family over production, the people you employ make decisions with that pressure around them.
Do I think Mara walked into Schoen's office and told him to retain Jones, Barkley and Shepherd or else? Absolutely not. Do I think Joe Schoen understands what Mara wants and he tries to manage that? Yes I do.
It is heartwarming that the Giants take care of their own. That comes with a cost to doing what is necessary to compete in a league where competitors are not restrained by that concern.
I don't care how heartwarming it is and four SBs hasn't done anything for this organization. It just seems like nobody wants to come here. I mentioned what the Lions were doing and immediately someone says we have 4 TBs and they haven't won shit. I mean who cares? They're winning now and they have a great and devoted fanbase. I do agree with the OP. The Mara family has been successful in spite of themselves. There is something definitely wrong with the culture
Seriously, if you're going to point to the Lions we have another 10-year cushion to get it right! LOL
Note: I have been a season tkt holder for decades and attended all 5 Super Bowls. I'm not just some casual fan stating the above.
Losing many a season ticket holder does not matter because the secondary market will scoop them up at a reduced price.
The brave Legions who gather and stake ownership in the parking lots should be applauded. Today its simply not cost effective to attend. Keep losing like this and its a flashback in time when many Jets and Giants fans jumped ship to other teams. Sure the void was replaced, but costs now and the upper deck in cloud country limits others too.
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He has said he talked directly to Daniel Jones and told him how much he wanted him to sign the deal and be a Giant for years to come. It's absurd to think he wouldn't also say that to Schoen.
Chris Mara, who owns as much of the team as John, was in the NYG locker room after the playoff win, and was quoted as saying (of Jones), "We have our guy".
The next "Mara" owner/president/CEO, Tim McD, has a high personnel position in this front office. He was on the recent USC scouting trip with Schoen and Brandon Brown. Anyone imagining Tim McD to be a potted plant has not made good use of time on planet Earth.
The owner literally said at the press conference that we have done as much to screw up Daniel as possible, hinting that he thinks he was salvageable.
And he was right.
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In comment 16287225 shyster said:
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He has said he talked directly to Daniel Jones and told him how much he wanted him to sign the deal and be a Giant for years to come. It's absurd to think he wouldn't also say that to Schoen.
Chris Mara, who owns as much of the team as John, was in the NYG locker room after the playoff win, and was quoted as saying (of Jones), "We have our guy".
The next "Mara" owner/president/CEO, Tim McD, has a high personnel position in this front office. He was on the recent USC scouting trip with Schoen and Brandon Brown. Anyone imagining Tim McD to be a potted plant has not made good use of time on planet Earth.
The owner literally said at the press conference that we have done as much to screw up Daniel as possible, hinting that he thinks he was salvageable.
And he was right.
He also believed Jerrel Jernigan was a player and was surprised he wasn't getting more playing time. He isn't a professional talent evaluator.
This is how the Maras stay involved. They don't tell Schoen what to do, but they make their opinion known. And if you want to keep your job you go along. Because if you don't and it doesn't work out they blame you. If you go along then they say well it's nobodies fault who would have thought it would go south and you are safe.
Important player decisions (QB for example) ALWAYS involves the owner.
However, if Schoen laid out (as we will HAVE to this off season) to ownership, that they have to live on, Mara will go along with it. He is NOT going to tie his GMs hands, he will want a strong explanation.
John has said he only gets directly involved if it’s an issue of player comportment or sketchy background (he may have been the reason they passed on Parsons).
Like ALL owners Mara is “involved”, he has frequent conversations with his GM and HC. He lets them do their jobs I believe (especially these two because they came from outside the organization).
When this season ends (mercilly), the 3 will sit down and come up with a plan to fix things. No one is going to be anything less than pissed, unhappy and angry.
"He was never going to hire an outside general manager."
"Kevin Abrams was going to be the next general manager."
"Chris Petit would never be fired."
A lot of people had these takes. Not only was Schoen hired, Mara signed off on Schoen bringing in multiple people beneath him to help overhaul the front office.
The Giants are a family business like the Cowboys and Steelers, that isn't changing. This board loved Tepper in Carolina, he's been the worst owner in the NFL since coming on.
I'm no Mara apologist, but I don't get these threads now after the front office changes he's made.
A more nuanced discussion of how influence is exerted in any organization makes those folks upset because they need a hero or villain.
There are currently 5 fixture coaches in the NFL (one likely on his way out). Kyle Shanahan probably replaces BB in that group.
Three other HCs: Vrabel, McVay and McDermott, have 5+ years on the job.
That's it.
The Giants ownership quickly pulled the trigger on 3 coaches who lost the team. They're low key relative to many owners, and seem to meddle in personnel decisions less than many or most. They spare no expense on facilities and player environment. Players speak of the organization with reverence.
So makes them terrible? I see just the opposite. They're patient with some success, and otherwise quick to pull the trigger.
"Joe, within given financial parameters, do you really have a completely free hand in all personnel decisions, including those involving the most high-profile players?"
Whether fans are being paranoid or not, some understandably wonder if ownership has placed certain limits or mandates on the front office.
Did Schoen have complete authority to dump Daniel Jones last year if he chose to do so?
"Joe, within given financial parameters, do you really have a completely free hand in all personnel decisions, including those involving the most high-profile players?"
Whether fans are being paranoid or not, some understandably wonder if ownership has placed certain limits or mandates on the front office.
Did Schoen have complete authority to dump Daniel Jones last year if he chose to do so?
Eric, I think we all know the answer would be that JM will provide his input on those "high-profile" players. He is the managing owner.
What can't happen over the next 8 games is for the Giants to be blown out like they have been in the past few weeks by teams supposedly in their weight class. If the Patriots, Washington or GB win by 20+, then Daboll is probably in trouble. They need to be competitive against teams also playing out the schedule.
Note: I have been a season tkt holder for decades and attended all 5 Super Bowls. I'm not just some casual fan stating the above.
This!!! Therein lies the problem...the rest of the fan base isn't willing to do this...PSLs, season tickets, merchandise, medium Pepsis, they are all bought whether the team stinks or not. Shit some of the tickets are generational written into wills so...the Giants aren't some corporate entity with responsibility of producing results to stakeholders.
"Joe, within given financial parameters, do you really have a completely free hand in all personnel decisions, including those involving the most high-profile players?"
Whether fans are being paranoid or not, some understandably wonder if ownership has placed certain limits or mandates on the front office.
Did Schoen have complete authority to dump Daniel Jones last year if he chose to do so?
What is he going to say to that? Of course he will say he does.
"Mr. Mara and this organization put their trust and confidence in me to do this job when they hired me. They have given me the authority to make the moves I need to in order to improve this team and I know they will stand behind me. I think we have a great working relationship and I value the views of everyone up and down this organization."
When's the last time a reporter asked a really probing question?
Make them sweat.
HBart, who is "they" in what you said there? Maybe John Mara doesn't "meddle in personnel decisions" but just look at the "Administration" page on Eric's home page:
Senior Player Personnel Executive: Chris Mara
Director of Player Personnel: Tim McDonnell (also a Mara)
To say the Maras aren't involved in "personnel decisions," to me, just ignores the elephant in the room. Two of the Mara family literally are in charge of "player personnel" according to the org chart -- although obviously the GM has a lot of say, too. But it seems pretty clear to me that the one constant is that the Mara family as a whole has a *big* role in personnel decisions, otherwise what do those job titles mean? And do they have those positions for life, or will management remove them if the Giants' personnel continue to suck? These are the questions I'd like the reporters to ask, although of course they never will...