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4th and 2 from the DAL 4

pjcas18 : 11/13/2023 11:52 am
I am sure this was discussed, and obviously this doesn't matter. this play was highly unlikely to change the outcome of the game, but....

it was 7-0, Flott had just picked off Dak and the Giants were on the doorstep of tying the game.

To that point the Giants could not run effectively Barkley's runs were:
1 yard
0 yards
1 yard
-3 yards
3 yards (direct snap)
2 yards (direct snap)

so we al saw the outcome of the play. 4th and 2 from the DAL 4, handoff (shotgun formation) from DeVito to Barkley, no gain.

My question as a non X and O's person is who thought that was a good play call? Not even second guessing, but is that technically sound for that down and distance given the previous results?

How does an OC say, I know what to call and it's this. The play that had not netted positive yardage through 5 carries already.

Did the press ask Daboll about it?

They made sure to show DeVito's dad in the stands who seemed to mouth "that's the 4th and 2 play call?"

Sometimes it seems like we feel that these guys are smarter than they really are. Going for it was the right call IMO, but if that's your play call, I would like an explanation why that was the best one.



Play  
Costy16 : 11/13/2023 11:53 am : link
Should have been something to Wan'dale. Get him in motion out to the boundary.
Showing Daddy Guido DeVito in the stands  
SirLoinOfBeef : 11/13/2023 11:57 am : link
makes for good TV.

That's all.
It was a terrible play call.  
Section331 : 11/13/2023 11:57 am : link
They would have been better off with a QB draw, hell, they would have been better off with just about any other call short of a quick kick. The D is clearly keying on Saquon so you give it to him on a dive play?

It wouldn’t have made a difference, but just as players should be held accountable, so should coaches. That showed no confidence in your offense.
That's a great question  
Lenny in Indy : 11/13/2023 11:57 am : link
and should be one of our biggest concerns. We have some decent talent on both sides of the ball (I think consensus was on paper we were better going into this season than last), but it's the in-game decision making is inexcusable. Similar to challenging the first play.
The play calls for Saquon kill me  
HammerTime75 : 11/13/2023 11:57 am : link
It's as if they think he's Tecmo Bowl Bo Jackson. If you have no threat of a pass, they can and will sell out on inside runs in short yardage situations. With an XFL offensive line, these plays won't work with anybody running it. I don't know how many times we have to see the same poor results before they realize.
Kafka  
bronxboy : 11/13/2023 11:59 am : link
pure genius.
Thought it was a bad playcall  
gary_from_chester : 11/13/2023 12:00 pm : link
Predictable. Not a strength - line doesn't get a lot of movement, Saquon not a plus dive runner. Some type of misdirection would have been better IMO. Too many predictable and unimaginative playcalls. I get it’s DeVito and he’s still learning on the fly, but that’s why they pay the OC. Big spot; honestly, it’s a different game if we score there, one that’s a little more competitive before they pull away.
RE: Kafka  
section125 : 11/13/2023 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16287346 bronxboy said:
Quote:
pure genius.


This.

If you are willing to go for it on 4th at 2 vs a good fast dline that was mirroring Barkley, why not a roll out pass or a quick out. The obvious play was run Barkley, so why do it. DeVito almost had Cager earlier in the series - he just didn't get enough air under it.

Kafka is a just a brutally bad OC. He has little imagination it seems.
I’m not positive  
Chris684 : 11/13/2023 12:06 pm : link
But did DeVito make the wrong read there? Should he have pulled the ball back and ran it himself? I believe that’s the play he scored the TD on with the Jets.

If they crash down on Barkley his read is to keep it, no?

Not defending anyone or even saying I’m right. That’s what I thought I saw
How about  
Carson53 : 11/13/2023 12:09 pm : link
the second down call, let's snap it back to Barkley in the Wildcat, that's a good call. I'm sure the Cowpokes were scared shitless than Barkley would actually throw the ball...
Kafka is part of the problem, not part of any solution, he had never called plays before he came to the Giants, and it shows!
Just an awful series of play calling, embarrassing as hell!
Kafka+Dabs  
5BowlsSoon : 11/13/2023 12:09 pm : link
I thought these two guys were going to add a ton of red zone creativity. When are we going to see it?
RE: Showing Daddy Guido DeVito in the stands  
larryflower37 : 11/13/2023 12:11 pm : link
In comment 16287338 SirLoinOfBeef said:
Quote:
makes for good TV.

That's all.


What kinda of derogatory bullshit is this. His dad's name is Tom btw.
Because he is of Italian decent he is "Guido"
Go fuck yourself.
seemed like absolutely terrible call - barkley had been hit behind los  
Eric on Li : 11/13/2023 12:13 pm : link
on almost every play prior to that point. expecting him to gain 2 yards with defense likely keying on him was just the absolute bottom of confidence in the offense to do anything else.

if you are going to go for it there, it is because you are aggressively trying to score tds. not play things conservative.

if you are going to play things conservative, take the 3 points.

that play call should have been almost anything else, wildcat, end around like the lamb play but to wandale, even a devito run or option play. a jump ball to hodgins or some kind of pick play. literally anything other than a run at the heart of the defense with an OL that could get an inch of movement.

there was a major contradiction in choosing to aggressively go for it but then calling the most conservative/predictable possible play.
RE: Kafka  
Blue21 : 11/13/2023 12:13 pm : link
In comment 16287346 bronxboy said:
Quote:
pure genius.
Exactly. He was calling plays like we had something we didn't. An offensive line. Our weakess link yesterday wasn't DeVito but our oline. Or it was equally as weak. A rollout there to a TE would have been my call.
I think Devito was supposed to keep it  
Reale01 : 11/13/2023 12:29 pm : link
It looked like he was frustrated with himself after the play. Maybe I saw it wrong. I agree that giving it to Barkley was stupid given the prior results.

Also it was to the right which seems to be the weaker side of our line. No deception. Here we come - stop us! Well they did.
RE: RE: Showing Daddy Guido DeVito in the stands  
SirLoinOfBeef : 11/13/2023 12:38 pm : link
In comment 16287371 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
In comment 16287338 SirLoinOfBeef said:


Quote:


makes for good TV.

That's all.



What kinda of derogatory bullshit is this. His dad's name is Tom btw.
Because he is of Italian decent he is "Guido"
Go fuck yourself.


Nope- because he looks like a guido from Jersey with the jewelry.

I am Italian/American as well. That said- go fuck your mother.

was a piss poor call.....  
BillKo : 11/13/2023 12:59 pm : link
....the designed route on DeVito's first TD pass yesterday was the type of stuff you need to get this team in the endzone.

Be imaginative. You're going to lose anyway lol but at least try.

It's almost like they don't want to show their playbook and save it for next year.

If that was a read option it’s not that much better  
BillT : 11/13/2023 12:59 pm : link
Putting that on DeVito’s shoulders to make the right read. Better than the alternative but a bit of imagination there would have been nice.
RE: If that was a read option it’s not that much better  
Reale01 : 11/13/2023 1:18 pm : link
In comment 16287479 BillT said:
Quote:
Putting that on DeVito’s shoulders to make the right read. Better than the alternative but a bit of imagination there would have been nice.


I am pretty sure he was meant to keep it, but I agree even that was a pretty shitty call.
nothing works  
djm : 11/13/2023 1:19 pm : link
..
First quarter just  
Amtoft : 11/13/2023 1:27 pm : link
kick the damn FG... 7-3 we feel at least a little good... instead we get easily stuffed and demoralized.

Here is the thing... if it works it is a good call and if it doesn't then it was a dumb call. Look at the Lions game. It was 4th and 5 and they RAN the ball. I say it again 4th and 5 and they RAN THE DAMN BALL. It worked he barely got the first down and the ref said brilliant call to run it there. If he would have failed it would have been what was he thinking!! You can't run on 4th and 5!!

If it works it is brilliant.. if it doesn't it was stupid.
Running the ball out of that formation...  
DefenseWins : 11/13/2023 1:29 pm : link
was an issue for me.

I would have preferred they spread the field and had the 3rd and long group in the lineup. It would have loosened up the defense a bit rather than having so many bodies in the box.
If your going to run that play  
Dankbeerman : 11/13/2023 1:37 pm : link
you should have just kicked it.

Terrible, predictable call. If your not gonna be creative be lame a nd kick it. We don't have the horses to line up and beat you when you know its coming.

I am hoping that there was a check that should have been called based on the way the D lined up that Devito missed because if our offensive HC and OC dialed that up there is no light ant the end of the tunnel
Now you know why they tried a field goal vs the Jets  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/13/2023 1:41 pm : link
Instead of running on fourth and short.

No offensive line means an adventure and limited plays that can be run.

Fix the line
it's a great question pjcas  
mittenedman : 11/13/2023 1:58 pm : link
and this is why I've soured on Daboll & Kafka.

They NEVER have a creative play at the right time. Good play callers set things up, and save their knockout blows for critical points in the game.

I've seen none of that this year, at any critical point in any game. Zero.

Look at Andy Reid - the dude seems to have an endless boat of imaginative plays at the perfect time - and they are always executed perfectly too. That's a good offensive coach.
Some of these  
pjcas18 : 11/13/2023 2:01 pm : link
comments are why I come back to question the coaching/play calling.

I remember some of the Brady early-mid years in NE the line was mostly a disaster and Charlue Weis (who also probably had the benefit of knowing what the D was doing) would call quick slants, HB screens, WR screens, anything quick to keep the pass rush off balance and not rely on a poor run blocking OL. Some media would say "this is basically the Patriots version of a running game". I remember a game vs the Steelers I don't think they ran the ball twice the first half and won the game. Why? because they weren't good at running the ball. Stop putting your team in a position to fail.

Why don't the Giants ever do that? You know don't run into the line twice and create 3rd and long, but run some quick slants on early downs, if the offense has a strength its Barkley, Robinson, Slayton, Bellinger, probably Hyatt (who really knows), but running into the teeth of the defense with OL who do not excel at run blocking when you have done nothing to establish the threat of a pass seems destined to fail.

FG  
Spider43 : 11/13/2023 2:03 pm : link
For me. No ifs, ands, or buts about it, given all the circumstances. Dabes is constantly making the wrong calls, after getting most right last year. And then throwing the red flag, WTF?!
 
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/13/2023 2:05 pm : link
I had no problem going for it. My problem was the play call.
RE: …  
Blueworm : 11/13/2023 2:55 pm : link
In comment 16287596 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
I had no problem going for it. My problem was the play call.


Open handoff, no misdirection.

Too easy for the D.
I was screaming to..  
Goin Deep : 11/13/2023 3:04 pm : link
kick the freaking field goal!! you would put points on the board and only be down 7-3 plus give your team some confidence going forward. as someone stated the ol and Barkley just hasn't worked in these short yardage scenarios. the whole stadium and the boys knew what was coming.
I'm kind of torn  
Bob from Massachusetts : 11/13/2023 3:08 pm : link
We all know that if the play had worked everyone would have said it was a great call, that they were expecting something else since inside runs hadn't worked, and that anything fancy would have risked a costly turnover. That said, it seemed kind of lame. I liked the idea of a rollout option or RPO better. But hey, 20/20 hindsight is always perfect. Just think there must have been something better, but reluctant to be too judgey after the fact
This breaks down into 2 categories.  
Matt M. : 11/13/2023 4:36 pm : link
The decision and the call. I 100% agree with the decision to go for it. I thought it was a terrible call. If you are dead set on running with Barkley there (I was not), I would liked to have seen either misdirection and/or a quick pitch outside. Personally I would have gone one of a few different ways:

1) Playaction with the intent to throw it in the end zone. I know it's Devito, but it is the last thing Dallas expected.
2) Playaction with Barkley going outside and Devito rolling with it the opposite (likely weak) side. Option to pass, but most likely looking to run it in.
3) Some creative means of getting either Robinson or Hyatt a rush there, with some misdirection.

Basically, I would have preferred anything other than another run by Barkley right into the middle of the line.
RE: I’m not positive  
Matt M. : 11/13/2023 4:38 pm : link
In comment 16287359 Chris684 said:
Quote:
But did DeVito make the wrong read there? Should he have pulled the ball back and ran it himself? I believe that’s the play he scored the TD on with the Jets.

If they crash down on Barkley his read is to keep it, no?

Not defending anyone or even saying I’m right. That’s what I thought I saw
This didn't look like the same play. This looked like a straight and basic dive, with no option.
RE: Some of these  
Matt M. : 11/13/2023 4:40 pm : link
In comment 16287587 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
comments are why I come back to question the coaching/play calling.

I remember some of the Brady early-mid years in NE the line was mostly a disaster and Charlue Weis (who also probably had the benefit of knowing what the D was doing) would call quick slants, HB screens, WR screens, anything quick to keep the pass rush off balance and not rely on a poor run blocking OL. Some media would say "this is basically the Patriots version of a running game". I remember a game vs the Steelers I don't think they ran the ball twice the first half and won the game. Why? because they weren't good at running the ball. Stop putting your team in a position to fail.

Why don't the Giants ever do that? You know don't run into the line twice and create 3rd and long, but run some quick slants on early downs, if the offense has a strength its Barkley, Robinson, Slayton, Bellinger, probably Hyatt (who really knows), but running into the teeth of the defense with OL who do not excel at run blocking when you have done nothing to establish the threat of a pass seems destined to fail.
Great point. I have been saying for a few weeks now I am shocked we haven't seen more slants to Robinson or Hyatt.
RE: I'm kind of torn  
Matt M. : 11/13/2023 4:41 pm : link
In comment 16287659 Bob from Massachusetts said:
Quote:
We all know that if the play had worked everyone would have said it was a great call, that they were expecting something else since inside runs hadn't worked, and that anything fancy would have risked a costly turnover. That said, it seemed kind of lame. I liked the idea of a rollout option or RPO better. But hey, 20/20 hindsight is always perfect. Just think there must have been something better, but reluctant to be too judgey after the fact
Absolutely not. Before they snapped the ball, it was clear what their intention was and I said do not run it to Barkley.
I expect, and sincerely hope, that we'll have a new OC  
BigBlueNH : 11/13/2023 5:49 pm : link
next year. Yes, we haven't blocked all year, but that doesn't explain our complete inability to function on O. The play calling has been way too predictable all year. We make no effort to get the ball to WanDale.
John Schmeelk analyzed the play very well  
RetroJint : 11/13/2023 11:30 pm : link
On the Giants website . Tommy had an RPO. He had Paris in the flat but the pressure was too immediate to get the throw off. That left the option carry . Devito keeps it; he’s waffled . All that was left was Saquan .

I wanted the FG but what does it matter now ? You can say Kafka could have come up with something better , but what exactly ? Wildcat ? Trick double reverse pass -run option to Bellinger ? No shot to do anything because the Giants offensive line is so terrible you can’t get time to run or pass .
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