When I read some of the comments posted on this site and elsewhere calling for Schoen and Daboll’s heads, it would seem people just landed here from another planet.
When they took the reins, this was a very very bad team. We had very little real talent (Barkley and Thomas), no proven NFL starting quarterback, and a culture of losing. We had gone through several coaches with no success - perhaps causing even more decline. As if it wasn’t bad enough - taking over a team with very little talent and no proven QB - they also inherited bad contracts and NO cap space with which to operate.
Did you really expect them to turn that situation around in one year? Seriously? No fucking way.
They had to change just about everything to do with the NYG’s football operation. They had to build a coaching staff. They had to start acquiring new young talent. They had to evaluate another regime’s QB. They had to get control of the cap. They had to rebuild the scouting department and the drafting process. They had to modernize (create) their analytics group. They had to bring in stopgap players to fill spots until they could make substantial upgrades at many positions. And they had to do all of this without alienating players they might want to retain. Don’t you recall what an unattractive situation these two walked into? Who would want this job when others were available?
We were lucky, lucky, lucky last year. All the early breaks went our way and we got some momentum going. We made the playoffs. We won a playoff game. Tremendous.
But far too many of you thought and act now as though the work was done. IT WASN’T DONE. IT HAD JUST STARTED. This was always going to be an uncomfortable ride. There was always going to be more agony and disappointment. If you thought were going straight up, three steps, playoff win in 2022, championship game maybe in 2023, Super Bowl champs in 2024, then you don’t know shit about the NFL. And you certainly don’t understand just how bad a position this organization had gotten itself into.
Give this time or route for some other team.
Let's not fool ourselves here. Schoen did not make that choice alone.
Schoen/Daboll are responsible now for 75% or more of the roster. It's weak to still blame others for the culture of losing, especially when you highlight the team has two good players (AT and Saquon) and the current regime inherited them. I'd add Dexter Lawrence to that good player list - also inherited.
the only other players who survived the prior regime that have not been re-signed by the current regime are:
the long snapper
Carter Coughlin
Darnay Holmes
McKinney
Ojulari
and from IR:
Brightwell
Lemieux
Peart
The rest of the entire roster (by my eye test) was either drafted, signed, traded for, or re-signed by the current regime.
So as they say in one of my favorite sports movies "Attitude reflects leadership" - enough with blaming others.
Training camp and the preseason were terribly mishandled.
The roster cut down decisions were seriously head scratching... cutting Crowder... Eric Gray on punt returns, Shepard, Lemiuex and Peart on this final roster over guys like Philips and Crowder who were clearly better options. The offensive line decisions and coaching were criminal.
Andrew Thomas staying in the game after pulling his hamstring. Starting Ezeudu at left tackle after bringing back Peart at swing tackle.
And there's obviously more than that. Other coaches were fired looking not that much worse if at all. It's fair to criticize, and hopefully these guys are learning some hard lessons and doing some serious soul searching this coming offseason. The criticism is 100% warranted.
What is frustrating is that we still have to wait for the season to end until we can start the 2024 process.
I do wonder how sought after Wink or Kafka will be this off-season.
Not many HCs come back from seasons like this and if they do there's an even lower number that actually prove themselves to be good or great team builders and leaders.
This season should scare the fuck out all of us. They aren't competing at all. Week 1 they got their teeth kicked in by DALLAS. AGAIN. They couldn't touch Dallas or Philly when things went well for us in 22.
This is bad. I am not firing anyone but I can't lie and act like I am optimistic for next season. The Giants have broken me.
Not many HCs come back from seasons like this and if they do there's an even lower number that actually prove themselves to be good or great team builders and leaders.
This season should scare the fuck out all of us. They aren't competing at all. Week 1 they got their teeth kicked in by DALLAS. AGAIN. They couldn't touch Dallas or Philly when things went well for us in 22.
This is bad. I am not firing anyone but I can't lie and act like I am optimistic for next season. The Giants have broken me.
This might be the worst part...not only do we have to endure this crap year, you question how much better they will be next year, they look so far away from looking like an actual NFL product, the future appears dismal even with a high pick
And sure, they paid Jones. Was there a better option given where we were in January? Is that contract going to kill us going forward. I don’t think so.
I don't think most posters would've been this angry had the team only had 3-4 wins, but was looking like an actual competitive football team that was prepared for games. Instead, they are getting obliterated in the majority of games and look like a division 2 team playing Alabama.
Even a 6-11 season with a number of close hard fought losses wouldn't have really soured me on the coach and front office. The completely uncompetitive product on the field in year 2 is not acceptable and really had me doubting whether the Schoen/Daboll duo is going to ever get it done here.
Maybe it's best to give them another year just to avoid turning over the entire organization again, but it's hard to really feel good about where things are heading given how this year has gone.
Quote:
?
Let's not fool ourselves here. Schoen did not make that choice alone.
Daboll is why DJ got paid. The HC has a lot of impact and influence on player personnel. Anyone thinking otherwise is fooling themselves. If you think Daboll went to Schoen and told him the guy isn't any good only to see Schoen pay him anyway, think again. This isn't even the top reason why I am so nervous right now but it sure as fuck doesn't help.
I have no confidence in this regime anymore. 40-0 week 1 was horrific and poignant. The rest of this season has only validated it. Week 1 was no accident. Week 2 was.
Dan Reeves had Dave Brown and a garbage OL and WR group and they competed better than this. Shit at least they lost 35-0 to a super bowl dynasty. We lost 40-0 to a paper tiger. Jim Fassel had the same shit offense in 97-99 and he actually flexed a 500 record over that time frame. I know he had a defense. That's my point. We're two years in now and we still don't have a defense and the offense is worse. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel? First pick? Big deal. We need 100 first picks.
All I can go on is history. Every time I dig into the past I fail to see any team that looked this bad eventually recover with the same coaching staff. I have no faith because history doesn't illustrate any reasons to have faith. We're losing games on a historically bad level. I only pray I am wrong. I am not even trying to convince others--I just can't feel any hope anymore. It's like the football gods need more pain from us. We aint done yet.
That was year 1. Rookies all over the roster. This is year 2. We're young, not THAT young.
Hey I am wrong a lot this would be nothing new. MAybe I just need to cool off.
No this looks and smells a lot like Parcells first year, but it's the second year.
They drank the kool aid and so did most of us.
I have very little faith in the coaching on this team. The GM I'm not sure of yet, but the scouting department, WTF???
Again, this seems way to strange regardless of what was inherited and last year.
This team is never ready to play, and with a third string QB starting the other day, he was def on a short leash and was proven several times by the play calling that was sent out to said QB. With nothing to lose except face, they coach scared. I was always taught to go down flighting, not like a lamb to slaughter.
Only thing I can say, is thank God for the JEST, but they will pass us soon enough I'm afraid if we stay the course.
Rant over
I don't think most posters would've been this angry had the team only had 3-4 wins, but was looking like an actual competitive football team that was prepared for games. Instead, they are getting obliterated in the majority of games and look like a division 2 team playing Alabama.
Even a 6-11 season with a number of close hard fought losses wouldn't have really soured me on the coach and front office. The completely uncompetitive product on the field in year 2 is not acceptable and really had me doubting whether the Schoen/Daboll duo is going to ever get it done here.
Maybe it's best to give them another year just to avoid turning over the entire organization again, but it's hard to really feel good about where things are heading given how this year has gone.
Great post! You articulated this much better than I. I am very frustrated with this team. I thought we finally had the right guys here. This year has been a kick in the nuts.
John Mara. I believe he is the reason Barkly, Jones, and Shepard are still on the roster earning big money. He cannot let the teachers pets go .
plus 1
I realise that there are 17 games remaining after that, mentally they were impacted by their ineptitude.
I realise that there are 17 games remaining after that, mentally they were impacted by their ineptitude.
Offense just can't compete at this point. Every team we have played knew exactly what we were going to do. No surprises, no talent to impose anything, and no in-game adjustments that produce anything meaningful. It's the same BS all game, every game. No speed. No tempo. No identity. No commanding presence on the field.
Wink's defense? I don't know what he is thinking. Remember Simmons saying he loves to attack the QB? What happened to using him in that capacity? Is he just a wasted roster move at this point? Are we really incapable of developing a scheme that will produce at least some pressure on the opposing QB?
No returner.
This is such a f***ing embarrassment.
No this looks and smells a lot like Parcells first year, but it's the second year.
They drank the kool aid and so did most of us.
I have very little faith in the coaching on this team. The GM I'm not sure of yet, but the scouting department, WTF???
Again, this seems way to strange regardless of what was inherited and last year.
This team is never ready to play, and with a third string QB starting the other day, he was def on a short leash and was proven several times by the play calling that was sent out to said QB. With nothing to lose except face, they coach scared. I was always taught to go down flighting, not like a lamb to slaughter.
Only thing I can say, is thank God for the JEST, but they will pass us soon enough I'm afraid if we stay the course.
Rant over
It’s not a rant when you speak the truth … and you speak the truth.
Weak training camp = weak players
Coaching not to lose is a recipe to do just that
A lost timeout on the 1st play of the game … sheesh
But hey, we got a whole new analytics department, a chief of staff for the coaches, umpteen captains and a legendary head trainer who’s in the teams ring of honor. Too bad none of that matters when the ball is snapped.
Averaging 11 points a games, giving up 640 yards in a single game, 4th from the bottom in PPG allowed, most sacks allowed in the whole NFL, 11 offensive TD's the whole season (3 teams have 30), totally uncompetitive in most games.
I never in a million years thought any outcome this season could allow for a discussion of firing Daboll or Schoen, but this team is the least competitive team I've ever seen in 50 years watching the Giants.
I mean, it's not crazy to think we have the wrong guys.
Historically bad...
Averaging 11 points a games, giving up 640 yards in a single game, 4th from the bottom in PPG allowed, most sacks allowed in the whole NFL, 11 offensive TD's the whole season (3 teams have 30), totally uncompetitive in most games.
I never in a million years thought any outcome this season could allow for a discussion of firing Daboll or Schoen, but this team is the least competitive team I've ever seen in 50 years watching the Giants.
I mean, it's not crazy to think we have the wrong guys.
Historically bad...
I had to go back to 1937 to find a Giants team that scored less than 11.8 points a game.
Schoen/Daboll are responsible now for 75% or more of the roster. It's weak to still blame others for the culture of losing, especially when you highlight the team has two good players (AT and Saquon) and the current regime inherited them. I'd add Dexter Lawrence to that good player list - also inherited.
the only other players who survived the prior regime that have not been re-signed by the current regime are:
the long snapper
Carter Coughlin
Darnay Holmes
McKinney
Ojulari
and from IR:
Brightwell
Lemieux
Peart
The rest of the entire roster (by my eye test) was either drafted, signed, traded for, or re-signed by the current regime.
So as they say in one of my favorite sports movies "Attitude reflects leadership" - enough with blaming others.
Exactly. Shoen and Daboll shopped for—and bought—these ingredients. And their cooking tastes like shit. This narrative that they inherited a bunch of bad players needs to die.
Quote:
?
Let's not fool ourselves here. Schoen did not make that choice alone.
And 75% of the fans were behind this. Pretty simple to sit in the armchair and criticize.
And sure, they paid Jones. Was there a better option given where we were in January? Is that contract going to kill us going forward. I don’t think so.
Agree 100% Has Daboll made some questionable decisions over the course of this season? There's no doubt he has & hopefully this is a learning curve for him going forward. I think last year did us all a disservice.As the OP stated,everything went our way & miraculously we made the playoffs. I know I as many bought into the"onward & upward" feeling starting this season. But,the reality was always the amount of talent on the roster was always going to be limited,thanks to the cap hell DG left Schoen.And,when injuries hit, the level of play on the field became worse(Yeah I know,how could it be worse than opening night?). Before Schoen traded Williams,they were last in cap space in the NFL.As far as DJ,they really had no choice,but did limit it to 2 years where the cap space would take a hit if DJ went South! We need to get through the next 7 games(And yes,I'm rooting for the opposition so we can maintain a very high draft position where Schoen/Daboll will get the chance to bring in their QB,as all new management teams in the NFL want to do!) & it will be painful,but it's nothing we,sadly,haven't experienced before. Schoen/Daboll deserve to follow through with their plan into 2024,despite this season's shortcomings. Now, we just need Manic Mara not to panic & again get the 2 year itch!
2) "No proven NFL quarterback". Except Joey just gave this "unproven NFL quarterback" a top of the market contract at 160m over 4 (I realize it's only 80m guaranteed but I am talking full contract value).
3) You say "how could they turn it around in 1 year"? You should probably check your math because it's actually been 2 off-seasons. He's already at 50% of the tenure as Gettleman and significantly less to show for it. At this point in Gettleman's tenure he had already added Barkley, DJ, Dexter Lawrence, Julian Love (who was also a great player for this team that Joey let walk), and Darius Slayton.
4) "They had to build a coaching staff". Literally 33% of the head coordinators came from the old regime and Daboll himself came over as a package deal with Joey so let's not pretend Joe Schoen had to start from scratch here.
Anyway, plenty more holes I can poke in your rantings but that's enough for now.
You know something, this is getting tiring Sy. What would YOU have done after the QB won 10 games including a road playoff win? Do you have some inside information or not? Spell it out, why don't you? Jones may not be the best QB, but some of you act as though he's the second coming of Ryan fucking Leaf. QB has been the least of the Giants' problems, again, this season.
Barkley is a great player but the previous regime drafting a RB at #2 instead of trading out of the pick prevented the team from having upgrades. In other words, they'd have been in better shape with Nick Chubb and Lamar Jackson. AS to the other players on your list, Azeez is always hurt, Adoree is replaceable, McKinney destroyed his hand and continues to suck and mouth off, Slayton is basically a JAG WR, and Schoen got a nice return for a player who was going to leave. Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence are the only two studs on your list. Neal may have been a miss but every team had him highly ranked, including the Cowboys. Thibs and Banks are both talented players on D.
2) "No proven NFL quarterback". Except Joey just gave this "unproven NFL quarterback" a top of the market contract at 160m over 4 (I realize it's only 80m guaranteed but I am talking full contract value).
It's fair to critique Schoen for this signing, but everything is 20/20 in hindsight. No one knew Jones would be this bad.
3) You say "how could they turn it around in 1 year"? You should probably check your math because it's actually been 2 off-seasons. He's already at 50% of the tenure as Gettleman and significantly less to show for it. At this point in Gettleman's tenure he had already added Barkley, DJ, Dexter Lawrence, Julian Love (who was also a great player for this team that Joey let walk), and Darius Slayton.
Love was not worth the $ he received from Seattle. And Gettleman drafting Barkley at #2 was a mistake.
4) "They had to build a coaching staff". Literally 33% of the head coordinators came from the old regime and Daboll himself came over as a package deal with Joey so let's not pretend Joe Schoen had to start from scratch here.
[quote]
I agree that this isn't really a good excuse.
Quote:
?
You know something, this is getting tiring Sy. What would YOU have done after the QB won 10 games including a road playoff win? Do you have some inside information or not? Spell it out, why don't you? Jones may not be the best QB, but some of you act as though he's the second coming of Ryan fucking Leaf. QB has been the least of the Giants' problems, again, this season.
Quote:
?
You know something, this is getting tiring Sy. What would YOU have done after the QB won 10 games including a road playoff win? Do you have some inside information or not? Spell it out, why don't you? Jones may not be the best QB, but some of you act as though he's the second coming of Ryan fucking Leaf. QB has been the least of the Giants' problems, again, this season.