|
|
|
| Quote: |
| But they are a long way away from any final decision, and the source acknowledged it might be premature for them to completely give up on Jones after watching him in just six starts this season — including three without running back Saquon Barkley, four without left tackle Andrew Thomas, and behind a disastrous offensive line that got him sacked a ridiculous 30 times. |
Jones's injuries moot any discussion about his play. He's had a concussion, two serious neck injuries, and now an ACL that will likely keep him out of action until sometime next season.
His contract is a disastrous albatross that will hamstring the Giants through the 2025 season. (The $22M cap hit for cutting him at that time would be the largest in Giants history IIRC.) Big swing and a miss by Schoen.
All of the guarantees are paid in the first two years, which is the most important factor.
How they choose to spread the accounting for those guarantees is way less important.
What Schoen was able to avoid is year three guarantees at signing, or practical guarantees on year three that conveyed after year one.
A good example of that was Prescott's contract. Before 2022 began, his 2023 salary became guaranteed.
Imagine if Jones's full 2025 salary conveyed to guaranteed before next year. Most big time quarterback contracts have some flavor of that.
Quote:
i'll get my popcorn
I wouldn’t celebrate too much. Random, unknown “Sources” are lovely and all but we will find out how they feel on draft day. What do you expect them to say right now? “Yeah, he sucks, we are going to move on”.
I will say though, if you and all the other clamoring to roll with Jones once again get your way, Daboll and Schoen will very likely be out of jobs after next season. They’d have to be out of their damned minds to stake their careers to Daniel Jones at this point.
How could they be out of a job sticking with DJ when many on this board believe it Mara pulling the strings for DJ?
Quote:
In comment 16287904 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
In comment 16287888 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 16287815 dancing blue bear said:
Quote:
i'll get my popcorn
Back so soon after your comment on Ray's thread this morning?
as usual you are way out of your depth. I was complimenting Ray for being a savant in what he does in playoff and (unfortunately) draft scenarios . *savant means really good at
the reference is to a movie called rain man. the guys name is ray. check it out. good movie
Oh I got every element of the reference.
But where I come from it's never considered a sincere compliment to compare someone to a movie character portraying a person with Autism.
There are some places where I'm out of my depth. BBI has yet to be one of those places.
I don't view someone with autism as less then
kinda fucked up that you do.
I never said "less than" or even suggested as much. But I've never seen it be a compliment paid to a neurotypical individual.
This is a wonderful attempt to walk back your original dickhead comment. And for the avoidance of doubt, that's not meant as a compliment.
With so much talk of tanking, and so much of the home schedule remaining, could this be a little floater from ownership to the season ticket holder or potential paying customer to say please still come out or the 4 games remaining, don’t be so sure we’re tanking for a QB?
Quote:
Can posters stop calling it a 2 year contract. That cap hit in year 3 is not insignificant, especially for a team with massive holes all over the roster.
All of the guarantees are paid in the first two years, which is the most important factor.
How they choose to spread the accounting for those guarantees is way less important.
What Schoen was able to avoid is year three guarantees at signing, or practical guarantees on year three that conveyed after year one.
A good example of that was Prescott's contract. Before 2022 began, his 2023 salary became guaranteed.
Imagine if Jones's full 2025 salary conveyed to guaranteed before next year. Most big time quarterback contracts have some flavor of that.
I'm not someone who worries that much about the cap, but some people do, and as a practical matter there are cap implications to consider. It's all well and good that Schoen didn't guarantee a third year, but the deal we do have, will strike a lot of pain in '24 and probably a bit in '25.
I don't see any discussion here of what happens cap-wise.
My understanding is the Giants can eat all the contract next year before June 1 at a $69M dead cap hit.
Or they can cut him after June 1 and spread (I think) 2/3 of the signing bonus into '25. So it would be dead cap hit of about $51M in '2024 and $18M in 2025. This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
Or they can just keep him on the roster for '24 @ $47M and incur the dead cap of $22M in 2025.
No matter how you slice it, these are pretty big numbers in '24 and '25, and people are going to upset that we are blocking out this much cap space for a guy holding a clipboard or who is off the team.
Quote:
a clown outfit on Daniel Jones seems like piling on at this point.
Oh I agree. It’s definitely over the top and he doesn’t deserve it. He’s a nice guy and has been a good soldier. But we must drown out the very loud minority that want to run it back once again with Jones. If Mara is hearing their voices, we are doomed.
Btw, I was joking anyways. I think?
We must "drown out the minority". What is this? Cancel culture? Pathetic attitude. I don't care what Jones is or isn't. Your mentality is the real problem not only on this board but everywhere.
Quote:
In comment 16287971 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
a clown outfit on Daniel Jones seems like piling on at this point.
Oh I agree. It’s definitely over the top and he doesn’t deserve it. He’s a nice guy and has been a good soldier. But we must drown out the very loud minority that want to run it back once again with Jones. If Mara is hearing their voices, we are doomed.
Btw, I was joking anyways. I think?
We must "drown out the minority". What is this? Cancel culture? Pathetic attitude. I don't care what Jones is or isn't. Your mentality is the real problem not only on this board but everywhere.
Who the fuck are you? Did you just crawl,out of a hole? Whoever you are you seem like a real treasure. And by treasure, I mean a complete idiot
Most realistic scenario is they simply take the best QB on their board with their first pick.
That's what I'd like to see.
With so much talk of tanking, and so much of the home schedule remaining, could this be a little floater from ownership to the season ticket holder or potential paying customer to say please still come out or the 4 games remaining, don’t be so sure we’re tanking for a QB?
Self interest always plays a part in everything they do. Maybe we'll get a large pepsi this time.
Quote:
In comment 16287971 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
a clown outfit on Daniel Jones seems like piling on at this point.
Oh I agree. It’s definitely over the top and he doesn’t deserve it. He’s a nice guy and has been a good soldier. But we must drown out the very loud minority that want to run it back once again with Jones. If Mara is hearing their voices, we are doomed.
Btw, I was joking anyways. I think?
We must "drown out the minority". What is this? Cancel culture? Pathetic attitude. I don't care what Jones is or isn't. Your mentality is the real problem not only on this board but everywhere.
That's not really "cancel culture" as much as it is making sure that, to whatever extent the team may be attempting to measure fan sentiment, they do not receive misleading feedback from a vocal minority while a quiet majority takes the organization's ability to think rationally for granted.
Quote:
In comment 16287978 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
Can posters stop calling it a 2 year contract. That cap hit in year 3 is not insignificant, especially for a team with massive holes all over the roster.
All of the guarantees are paid in the first two years, which is the most important factor.
How they choose to spread the accounting for those guarantees is way less important.
What Schoen was able to avoid is year three guarantees at signing, or practical guarantees on year three that conveyed after year one.
A good example of that was Prescott's contract. Before 2022 began, his 2023 salary became guaranteed.
Imagine if Jones's full 2025 salary conveyed to guaranteed before next year. Most big time quarterback contracts have some flavor of that.
I'm not someone who worries that much about the cap, but some people do, and as a practical matter there are cap implications to consider. It's all well and good that Schoen didn't guarantee a third year, but the deal we do have, will strike a lot of pain in '24 and probably a bit in '25.
I don't see any discussion here of what happens cap-wise.
My understanding is the Giants can eat all the contract next year before June 1 at a $69M dead cap hit.
Or they can cut him after June 1 and spread (I think) 2/3 of the signing bonus into '25. So it would be dead cap hit of about $51M in '2024 and $18M in 2025. This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
Or they can just keep him on the roster for '24 @ $47M and incur the dead cap of $22M in 2025.
No matter how you slice it, these are pretty big numbers in '24 and '25, and people are going to upset that we are blocking out this much cap space for a guy holding a clipboard or who is off the team.
Exactly...I'm just sick of fans describing this as a 2 year contract with an "out". That contract and that out will cost them. And while fans may think the Giants roster will be in a better place come 2025, I have my doubts and they will need every dollar possible to rebuild this.
The contract was a mistake and a miss by Schoen and it was completely unnecessary. The Giants had all the leverage and quite honestly might have been able to find a better option in free agency for a fraction of the cost. And this contract is going to hurt this team badly for the next 2 seasons.
He should have been tagged. This offseason would feel much differently if he was coming off the books. Fans need to stop pretending it wasn't a massive miscalculation by this regime.
My understanding is the Giants can eat all the contract next year before June 1 at a $69M dead cap hit.
Or they can cut him after June 1 and spread (I think) 2/3 of the signing bonus into '25. So it would be dead cap hit of about $51M in '2024 and $18M in 2025. This is my understanding, but I could be wrong.
Or they can just keep him on the roster for '24 @ $47M and incur the dead cap of $22M in 2025.
You can confirm that at Jones' Over the Cap page.
When the deal was signed, the split would have been $51M/$18M, again in both scenarios, but the restructure moved $4M to 2025.
And I believe there's a good chance there will be another restructure that moves the numbers, because Giants aren't going to want to take that $47M hit in 2024, in any scenario.
The pre-June 1/post-June 1 split is $47M/$22M, same as if they keep him for all of 2024, then cut.
You can confirm that at Jones' Over the Cap page.
When the deal was signed, the split would have been $51M/$18M, again in both scenarios, but the restructure moved $4M to 2025.
And I believe there's a good chance there will be another restructure that moves the numbers, because Giants aren't going to want to take that $47M hit in 2024, in any scenario.
For clarity, the 2024 post-June 1 cut split is $47M/$22M. The pre-June 1 number is $69M, in theory, as you say, but not practical, both because of cap management and Jones' likely injury status.
Quote:
In comment 16287980 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 16287971 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
a clown outfit on Daniel Jones seems like piling on at this point.
Oh I agree. It’s definitely over the top and he doesn’t deserve it. He’s a nice guy and has been a good soldier. But we must drown out the very loud minority that want to run it back once again with Jones. If Mara is hearing their voices, we are doomed.
Btw, I was joking anyways. I think?
We must "drown out the minority". What is this? Cancel culture? Pathetic attitude. I don't care what Jones is or isn't. Your mentality is the real problem not only on this board but everywhere.
Who the fuck are you? Did you just crawl,out of a hole? Whoever you are you seem like a real treasure. And by treasure, I mean a complete idiot
I didn’t need you to reinforce my point. But thanks anyway.
Quote:
I don’t buy this for a second. Look at Schoen’s travel schedule. But if it is true, Mara influenced…in which case we’re fucked.
I could see it. Do you know how hard it was for John Mara to outside the organization to finally hire Joe Schoen? He's probably saying to himself, "well, we went outside and we're worse off than ever before."
It would be wrong, but I could see Mara thinking that.
I have know idea how hard it was for him, but evidently I don’t know him as well as you do
I don't think they're even close to being that dumb though.
Nothing is ever a sure thing but if you could pick a year to have a top 3 this would be the year to do it. I would take any of the 3 QB's over any QB drafted in the last 15 years besides Trevor Lawrence, Joe Burrow, Andrew Luck and Cam Newton coming out of college without even thinking about it.
If Jones plays amazing, Dre Brees him to another team. If Jones stinks, cut him or demote him to QB2 by mid season or following season.
For me its actually the best QB plan they have had in a decade. Especially since they boggle the Eli Manning replacement plan so poorly.
Yes. Just because they say it’s premature to give up on Jones (which is right bc it is harmless to bring him back next year given consequences if cutting him next year), that does not mean they are committing to him as next year’s starter (or even 2025 starter).
I doubt there will ever be 2 Star Athletes with the same Name in seperate sports, so since the Cam Ward i know of, has won a Stanley Cup, i doubt the College Football Cam Ward would have to be a bust.
I 100% maybe agree.
There's literally no downside. It doesn't mean they aren't going to draft a QB.
There's literally no downside. It doesn't mean they aren't going to draft a QB.
Raising the blood pressure of their fans isn't costless, this country's medical costs are already absurdly high.
From this season? I am not sure that is even possible. If they lost every game by 50 points it would still only be sort of parallel.
From this season? I am not sure that is even possible. If they lost every game by 50 points it would still only be sort of parallel.
Last year, Mills had 17 TDs (3.5% rate) 6.5 Y/A, and 207.9 Y/G. This year, Stroud has 15 TDs (4.7% rate), 8.3 Y/A, and 291.8 Y/G.
Daniel Jones had 15 TDs last year (3.2%), 6.8 Y/A, and 200.3 Y/G. Mills and Jones had very similar passing production (to be clear, Jones was better due to turnovers and his legs)--my point is that a good passing offense is within our sights if we get the QB right. Maybe Hyatt can be the Dell equivalent, add a linemen or two, and we may be okay as soon as 2024.
It's a big number but it's manageable. No need to Chicken Little it. It's a figure we'll gladly swallow if we have a quarterback on the roster, in year 2 of his rookie deal, that we feel good about for the future.
It is absolutely a 2 year contract with an out, albeit a costly one, after year 2. But not prohibitively so, and a competent FO can still operate effectively while budgeting for it in advance.
It's a big number but it's manageable. No need to Chicken Little it. It's a figure we'll gladly swallow if we have a quarterback on the roster, in year 2 of his rookie deal, that we feel good about for the future.
It is absolutely a 2 year contract with an out, albeit a costly one, after year 2. But not prohibitively so, and a competent FO can still operate effectively while budgeting for it in advance.
*absolutely a 4 year contract with an out*
Quote:
is the suggestion that teams with rookie QBs typically take a step backwards.
From this season? I am not sure that is even possible. If they lost every game by 50 points it would still only be sort of parallel.
Last year, Mills had 17 TDs (3.5% rate) 6.5 Y/A, and 207.9 Y/G. This year, Stroud has 15 TDs (4.7% rate), 8.3 Y/A, and 291.8 Y/G.
Daniel Jones had 15 TDs last year (3.2%), 6.8 Y/A, and 200.3 Y/G. Mills and Jones had very similar passing production (to be clear, Jones was better due to turnovers and his legs)--my point is that a good passing offense is within our sights if we get the QB right. Maybe Hyatt can be the Dell equivalent, add a linemen or two, and we may be okay as soon as 2024.
Agree completely. Replacing Jones isn't the same thing as replacing Eli. Jones has never provided much in the passing game. Even if the new QB is middling we will get what we got our of Jones at a much cheaper price.
OMG. Bob doing what he does best. He was hired by Mara Tech in his 20s. Kid out of Fordham and all that jazz, so he made sense for them. I remember listening to him back in '88 on WNEW for Giants Pre and Postgame shows and on the Giants' Weekly Radio Show that my brother and I used to prank call, lol.
Point is this: This is expected. Papa is their paid mouthpiece and it really grinds his gears that we know that the Maras are disingenuous idgits. He's doing their dirty work for them. Gott protect that table spread befo' Thanksgiving, eh?!
From this season? I am not sure that is even possible. If they lost every game by 50 points it would still only be sort of parallel.
Look at the difference between this year and last year for the Texans. Night and Day, literally. Great young coach and superb young QB.
Have to ve careful on BBI with rational posts about Jones and the Giants QB situation.
Quote:
I did not bother reading all this. But bottom line is Jones is and asset and a serviceable QB when healthy. He has value and the Giants are going to do everything they can to maintain the value of an important asset.
Have to be careful on BBI with rational posts about Jones and the Giants QB situation.
He has little value with that contract. No team is trading for Jones and assuming his contract.
If the Giants care about efficient asset valuation they sure have a funny way of showing it, after committing one of the most egregious unforced errors in NFL history with the Jones contract. They basically negotiated against themselves and were rewarded with a precipitous asset deflation after just a few games of abysmal QB play. What do you think Jones would have netted on the open market, even before re-injuring his neck? My guess is no more than a third, $10-$15M/yr. At this point, they can scarcely do much more damage to the asset value. NFL teams aren't stupid. They will see the Giants draft a QB and relegate Jones to the status of most expensive backup QB in the history of the game. They're never going to pay much to acquire him. The asset destruction has already happened. Sure, it is in their nominal interest to make warm, fuzzy, positive statements about Jones but they will never ever get anywhere close to the value committed in return for him.
Sounds much more like a liability to me.
Quote:
I did not bother reading all this. But bottom line is Jones is and asset and a serviceable QB when healthy. He has value and the Giants are going to do everything they can to maintain the value of an important asset.
Have to ve careful on BBI with rational posts about Jones and the Giants QB situation.
It's very odd. They fight to silence dissent on the Jones question as though their livelihoods depended on it.
It's been said before but if Jones played for a different team BBI would have a field day trashing him. Put him in a Washington uniform and you'd be teeing off.
Sounds much more like a liability to me.
In the strictest sense he's absolutely a liability.
If you took the remaining years and money on his contract, including all of the specific ins and outs of guarantees and etc...
that contract is greater than what he could command on the open market at this moment. In my opinion, significantly greater.
The asset has financing terms attached to it, and currently it's underwater. There is no equity in it.
The equation could change over time. (I don't believe it will, and I don't believe DJ will get much of an opportunity to make it change given the injury and staring down the barrel of a Top 3 pick in a good QB class).
Quote:
for a QB that has been such a disappointment for so long
It's been said before but if Jones played for a different team BBI would have a field day trashing him. Put him in a Washington uniform and you'd be teeing off.
If he played in the division, they would trash him.
If he played in the NFC South, they wouldn't even know his fucking name.
Quote:
In comment 16290887 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
I did not bother reading all this. But bottom line is Jones is and asset and a serviceable QB when healthy. He has value and the Giants are going to do everything they can to maintain the value of an important asset.
Have to ve careful on BBI with rational posts about Jones and the Giants QB situation.
It's very odd. They fight to silence dissent on the Jones question as though their livelihoods depended on it.
And you defend him as if your livelihood depended on it. You’re literally on EVERY thread twisting yourself into a pretzel defending him. Your self awareness absolutely sucks. Almost as much as your QB evaluation skills