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Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL And Wellington was very upset when george Young got rid of Bavaro & Simms. I was in press room when Mr Mara came into press room after Bavaro news. He was NOT happy. But he let the football people have final say on football. Nothing has changed as far as chain of command. Quote Anthony Rivardo @Anthony_Rivardo · 54m Replying to @BobPapa_NFL Correct, there’s a reason John Mara said he was heartbroken when Gettleman traded OBJ |
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Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL Chat room theory. Not reality. New GM and Coach. They had fully autonomy to do what they thought was best. Were you conferenced in on that “call”? It’s not how it works. Not just at NYG but at most franchises. Quote Spartan Mike (NYG) @SpartanMike96 · 17m This is true. GMs run the ship with the Giants. But yeah Mara definitely called Schoen during the contract negotiations advocating for Jones. No doubt in my mind. |
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Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL That’s a guess. It’s not how it works. See Toney pick. Quote Brian Kleiberg @kleezz · 19m Replying to @BobPapa_NFL Yes, I agree and believe you that the GM has always had the final say. But when the owner’s brother and or nephew are pushing you to draft or sign a player, it complicates the process. |
I agree. I think there is always fear with how the past decade has gone. It reminds me of that doubt that Abrams was going to get the GM role at the end of 2021. I recall Paul Schwartz writing an article about why Abrams would be qualified. This feels very similar, but I fully expect QB to be drafted in the first round.
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In comment 16289132 Go Terps said:
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Bob Papa
@BobPapa_NFL
There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”.
If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window )
So you're saying that there were fans calling for Tyrod Taylor to start the next season after that stretch of games before the elimination game, which is what he said? You are actually contending that? Maybe you were, but of course no-one will ever know since you ran into hiding. But nobody else was calling for Tyrod Taylor at that point.
If you want an example of people calling for the Giants to go with Tyrod Taylor as the starter in 2023, I provided it (the Athletic Football podcast) in the linked thread below on 10/29/22. You'll also see there why I left. Link - ( New Window )
That thread is not in the window of time that Papa specified. You are disagreeing just to disagree...
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in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now.
^This. Schoen didn't want to use the FT on Jones because it would have cost $32.5M, which would have limited what he could do in FA. I think he was concerned about that because he basically had no FA money his first year. But that should have been irrelevant, or at best secondary. The primary concern should have been not to resign Jones to a ridiculous contract. Schoen basically replaced the Solder and Golladay contracts with a similar one for Jones.
Schoen and the Giants also broadcast they wanted to resign Jones and Barkley, which gave Jones and his agents a big advantage during negotiations. I also doubt that Barkley would have gotten a lot more in FA from another team than the final offer from the Giants. But if he did, then you let him go.
AT, I agree with everything you post, which would lead me to another question for Schoen/Daboll--why did they value the cap room in 2023 so highly? My answer is it's because they wildly overrated 2022 and thought they could contend. Which, of course, was so obviously a mistake.
The self-scouting has to get better. This team makes decisions like everything has a 50-50 chance of working out and then it's just bad luck when things go wrong. Not competing in 2018, not competing this year. They were pretty obviously not contenders in my eyes. I, of course, didn't expect this, but the odds this team was a contender in 2023 at the start of the year were insanely low. Vegas odds suggested this too.
And for what it's worth, the amount the Athletic guys speculated Jones would ask was $20M per year.
Giving Jones that contract was a fucking joke. Same old clown show.
Im not saying it was the best time. All I am saying is that what he said was no fans were calling for Tyrod Taylor to be the starter during that period. It was a simple statement. You took issue with it (of course), but you didn't disprove his statement.
I want a new QB at the top of this draft. I am content with that and am not interested in arguing the same points with the same people for months. I also don't see anything in that link about why you left. I don't even see you in that linked thread. But whatever. Your disappearing act was weak.
I like listening to Papa call the games, but he was really short-sighted in believing someone who works for the Giants can put to rest any idea that the Giants front office has any problems based on a social media post.
Not sure why the requirement for Giants media people starts and ends with "grumpy old man who looks down on the fans and media."
Maybe let Schmelk handle this stuff and let Hanlon and Papa go yell at clouds.
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I wonder how much of this is just Hanlon being Hanlon.
Pat Hanlon's career, while not football-related, is a rather telling example of how loyalty and being considered a part of the family trumps competence for the Giants.
I'll still never forget how he made a fool of himself on twitter in '21 when the ship was in flames. A grown man acting like a child.
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And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific.
Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon.
Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory.
They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake.
I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.
Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain.
Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16289310 ThomasG said:
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And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific.
Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon.
Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory.
They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake.
I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.
Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain.
Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it.
And yet, they do. I will agree to disagree.
Yeah, that was a strange afternoon. Of all the things, right?
Different tack, I think this was an interesting nugget in there (besides my Drake Maye reference)... ;)
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In comment 15888643 bw in dc said:
Unless Jones goes Mahomes the second half of the season, I would only consider two options:
(1) Tag and make him prove it again.
(2) Let him walk and thank him for his time.
And that because for (1), it's really hard to discern how much is Jones and how much is system. To be fair, it's probably 60/40 - Jones right now. Which, for me, isn't compelling enough for a long term deal.
Yes, they deserve to be called Jints central with stuff like this.
I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.
I think you're taking your read on the situation and assuming they see it the same way as you. When the football world thought Dave Gettleman was incompetent and a doddering old fool this ownership doubled down and let him play out his entire contract.
When the roster was broken and the performance was awful, they booted Tom Coughlin and doubled down on 'this roster is close to contending', and hired McAdoo and retained Reese to stay the course.
I will not assume the Giants subscribe to the point of view that may be obvious to many.
Jesus I just re-read that thread. Putting everything else aside, gidie was completely out of line. Agree with your points or not, there is nothing disrespectful in those posts. That was an attempt to silence opinions he didn't like, nothing more.
And I'd happily take a banning if he thinks that is out of line. That was absurd.
And for what it's worth, the amount the Athletic guys speculated Jones would ask was $20M per year.
Giving Jones that contract was a fucking joke. Same old clown show.
Well they did take away the unlimited salad and breadsticks as part of the deal.
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In comment 16289326 JonC said:
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In comment 16289310 ThomasG said:
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And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific.
Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon.
Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory.
They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake.
I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.
Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain.
Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it.
And yet, they do. I will agree to disagree.
Fine to disagree as well. Hopefully though on just how silly the trial balloon method is, and not the fundamental need to draft a QB.
Worst hire of my lifetime.
It's confirmation bias. When people agree with you, they are good, smart people. The people who disagree with you are dumb and should be looked down upon and condescended to like Papa just did.
Everyone is wrong sometimes. Just move on.
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I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.
I think you're taking your read on the situation and assuming they see it the same way as you. When the football world thought Dave Gettleman was incompetent and a doddering old fool this ownership doubled down and let him play out his entire contract.
When the roster was broken and the performance was awful, they booted Tom Coughlin and doubled down on 'this roster is close to contending', and hired McAdoo and retained Reese to stay the course.
I will not assume the Giants subscribe to the point of view that may be obvious to many.
That's fine, but I can probably name just as many situations where they did do the obvious thing too but those are conveniently not debated. Just because the Mara's don't have the same timeline in altering courses as fans would doesn't mean we should assume an obvious future decision will be ignored.
And the next obvious future decision is that Schoen will draft a new QB next year.
The only thing not obvious is which one.
without question
It's confirmation bias. When people agree with you, they are good, smart people. The people who disagree with you are dumb and should be looked down upon and condescended to like Papa just did.
Everyone is wrong sometimes. Just move on.
Frankly the Giants haven't been right on too much in the past 10/12 years.
I do think JM gets far to much blame for "meddling." Name one owner that doesn't "meddle." You can likely find the same claims on the fan sites of most NFL teams, especially the ones with losing records.
I guess you could say the family meddles since they hold a few upper level positions in scouting and player personnel.
Not sure if it was SY, JonC or christian that said a lot of the same guys are still there from when Accorsi(something to that affect) was there. At first glance, it is like "so what." And then you see there is never consistency with the Giants except wallowing in failure consistently. They had a decent run from 2006 to 2012ish, but before that - ick and since then yuck.
I don't know how a team with so many family owners involved in the operation can flush itself of this condition. They are not likely to fire themselves. Bringing in Schoen and Brown is a good start. They got a few new scouts and people in player personnel, but the leadership hasn't changed much. The various "owners" need to recuse themselves and perhaps let the entire operation be run by an unrelated entity.
Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end.
2- The firing of McAdoo and Reese. I’m guessing there was some miscommunication in the meeting when they decided to start Geno, but if it was so pivotal a meeting, why wasn’t the decision formalized and defined so everyone understood what was agreed to? And why would an NFL owner cave to fan Pressure in such a craven way? And why would Mara behave so dishonorably to his head coach and long time GM? In fact, w was Reese fired anyway? Why was that never addressed? Meanwhile, Geno Smith led a team to the playoffs last season.
Mara didnt just look like a blunderer. He looked simultaneously weak and untrustworthy. It’s formed a very bad impression.
Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end.
Do we really have to go back pre-Schoen here? This fan base got what they wanted with a true outside GM hire who then took charge of the HC process as well. Let's at least stay in the present when you take your tally of the front office situation.
Schoen hasn't been able to play in free agency much because of the cap situation but have you really disagreed with his choices in the draft so far? Neal and Thibs aren't all-pros, but he has done pretty obvious things in his first two drafts. He put Dex and Thomas under long term deals which was obvious. He didn't rubber stamp a Jones 5th year option but made him play into a new deal which was fair. He absolutely made a mistake in not tagging Jones and letting Barkley test the market, but letting them both walk was never going to happen and was not obvious. When we started falling out place, Schoen also moved Big Leo for picks which is helpful.
Gettleman was a moron and we have had some bad coaches. I think Schoen and Daboll are better and are not puppets for Mara. I do think both thought they had more to work with (from DJ and the roster) after a successful year one and made some evaluation mistakes on Offense. A new QB though is sitting there to potentially rectify that though...just make the obvious decision.
They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023.
What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?
They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023.
What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?
I think they will have wound up paying a huge amount for just a few Jones starts as you state. But that is a function of his injury as much as it was a bad idea not to tag him as well.
If anything, I think having so little on Offense and being stubborn about possibly losing Barkley was the downfall for wasting a whole lot of money with Jones. Schoen screwed that up because (like most of this fan board) he valued the Minnesota playoff game more than the Philadelphia one.
Anything pre-Schoen is not that interesting to me in this debate as piling on could go back to why Lombardi or Landry both were allowed to leave.
Or maybe I just don't have time for the pain.
I still can't believe TC got canned, but somehow Reese survived. Half measure AF.
Just reading this thread gets me mad AF about that clown Mara. He's turned this franchise into a joke. You have BBI posters-who are the top .00001 of fans-not even watching the fucking games!
They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023.
What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?
Eli was cooked in 2016. Not sure where you stood on that. But that was on Reese.
Unfortunately, it appears Daboll was good enough to get more out of Jones than he should have and it lead to a contract that absolutely looks bad. But teams sign bad QB deals often enough. They are stuck with it, but perhaps SChoen has seen the light now and will get a replacement in 2024.
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but they haven't gotten a lot right to say 'well we don't talk about the times they chose the right path' from an ownership perspective. Maybe hiring Schoen was correct. Far too early to tell but I like him.
Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end.
Do we really have to go back pre-Schoen here? This fan base got what they wanted with a true outside GM hire who then took charge of the HC process as well. Let's at least stay in the present when you take your tally of the front office situation.
Schoen hasn't been able to play in free agency much because of the cap situation but have you really disagreed with his choices in the draft so far? Neal and Thibs aren't all-pros, but he has done pretty obvious things in his first two drafts. He put Dex and Thomas under long term deals which was obvious. He didn't rubber stamp a Jones 5th year option but made him play into a new deal which was fair. He absolutely made a mistake in not tagging Jones and letting Barkley test the market, but letting them both walk was never going to happen and was not obvious. When we started falling out place, Schoen also moved Big Leo for picks which is helpful.
Gettleman was a moron and we have had some bad coaches. I think Schoen and Daboll are better and are not puppets for Mara. I do think both thought they had more to work with (from DJ and the roster) after a successful year one and made some evaluation mistakes on Offense. A new QB though is sitting there to potentially rectify that though...just make the obvious decision.
This is a point many don't understand, we don't get okereke if Jones was tagged. Okereke looks like a great signing, reminds me of the Antonio Pierce signing in 2006.
@GiantInsider
You mean like when Mara didn’t want Kadarius Toney and kept asking Gettleman “you sure about this guy?” Look, Mara is the owner and of course involved. But heavy handed? Runs the draft? Furtherest thing from the truth.
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Richard Savner
@RichardSavner
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40m
Replying to @GiantInsider and @BobPapa_NFL
Chris- until they actually do it, I’ll still believe that the John Mara is just like his father and too involved and heavy handed. I wouldn’t be shocked if they took a pass rusher or OT
@GiantInsider
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All I’m telling you bud is, if Schoen wants a QB, he will take a QB. In no way will Mara tell him “nope, I want a tackle”
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Richard Savner
@RichardSavner
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7m
Replying to @GiantInsider
Never said he runs the draft. But he stuck his nose in with Eli and until Joe schoen he wouldn’t hire a guy unless they at least work as a ball boy for the giants 30 years ago. Or because Belichick told him to. Which he did more than once. He’s been overbearing and archaic
Let the post DJ era begin dammit!
I knew this was gonna be a gem. Repetitive, as expected, but the regulars really brought it. Been looking forward to this brand of crazy all day. Kudos!
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Wasn't the rumor that Judge really wanted Toney?
And that was based on the video where Judge is smiling while Gettleman slumps away shaking his head in the War Room...
Like clockwork JonC, lol.
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For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window )
Like clockwork JonC, lol.
Great job by Papa there. Danny Devito? Holy moly.
Let the post DJ era begin dammit!
The feeling is probably mutual. Jones is lucky Daboll didn’t put him in a wheelchair and Schoen has actually done the impossible and made the OL worse than it already was.
IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point?
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For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window )
Like clockwork JonC, lol.
Yessir!
Up to and including these trial balloons using certain reporters.
Carl Banks is in on this conspiracy too???
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For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window )
Carl Banks is in on this conspiracy too???
Some of the trial balloons are posters on BBI too.
IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point?
I guess for some people BBI is the main focus in their life . Why else would the same people rehash the same subjects everyday?
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than sitting here day after day trying to figure out how much Mara is involved in personnel decisions. We'll never know for sure, but he's involved to some extent, and he's the owner. I'd imagine almost all the NFL owners are involved to some extent, and it's perfectly OK: they own the fucking team. They're allowed to have opinions on who they hire.
IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point?
I guess for some people BBI is the main focus in their life . Why else would the same people rehash the same subjects everyday?
And the only thing worse is the people who come to BBI to talk about other posters instead of talking about the Giants.