Bob Papa with a lot of tweets regarding Mara & front office

Mara's weepy thumb on the scale os a real problem.

We can't have these attachments to mediocre players.

In comment 16288258 jinkies said:

Quote:

Mara's weepy thumb on the scale os a real problem. We can't have these attachments to mediocre players.

You are a tool..

No question . He wanted to give Judge another year . Judge talked himself out of the job. He and Tisch chose Schoen. And that’s been it .

Papa is wrong on the Bavaro release . Young tried to release Mark , while giving him only a 70K workers’ compensation settlement . Squint was in . Only after a public uproar did they give Bavaro a decent severance .

He’s right on Simms. Mara weighed in on Young and Reeves to not cut Phil loose . But he wouldn’t override them .

Twitter if he's still calling social forums "chat rooms"

Does he still pay for AOL?

.

BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads.

Focus on the important things, Bob.

that most fan theories which postulate John Mara as a meddling owner are the result of wishful thinking. With everything that's wrong with this team, there's something broken in people that wants to believe everything wrong with the team can be laid at the feet of the team owner - basically the one guy in the organization that won't ever be replaced as long as he's alive.

In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said:

Quote:

BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob.

Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it.

In comment 16288306 BlackLight said:

Quote:

that most fan theories which postulate John Mara as a meddling owner are the result of wishful thinking. With everything that's wrong with this team, there's something broken in people that wants to believe everything wrong with the team can be laid at the feet of the team owner - basically the one guy in the organization that won't ever be replaced as long as he's alive.

Even his public statements can be viewed as meddling, "we've done everything possible to screw him up..."

In comment 16288306 BlackLight said:

Quote:

that most fan theories which postulate John Mara as a meddling owner are the result of wishful thinking. With everything that's wrong with this team, there's something broken in people that wants to believe everything wrong with the team can be laid at the feet of the team owner - basically the one guy in the organization that won't ever be replaced as long as he's alive.

So it’s really that we have had three GMs in a row who are each incapable of building a multi-year non-doormat team??

In comment 16288312 jinkies said:

Quote:

In comment 16288306 BlackLight said: Quote: that most fan theories which postulate John Mara as a meddling owner are the result of wishful thinking. With everything that's wrong with this team, there's something broken in people that wants to believe everything wrong with the team can be laid at the feet of the team owner - basically the one guy in the organization that won't ever be replaced as long as he's alive. Even his public statements can be viewed as meddling, "we've done everything possible to screw him up..."

When all you know how to do is think like a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Mara’s statement was 100% correct. That being said, it’s time for a fresh start with a new QB.

In comment 16288308 NorcalNYG said:

Quote:

In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob. Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it.

You don't actually believe that those conversations never get leaked, do you? Some beat writers are definitely plugged in and get inside info. Talking more in general than specific giants beat writers but plenty of beat writers across all sports have had good sources inside of organizations.

In comment 16288322 MookGiants said:

Quote:

In comment 16288308 NorcalNYG said: Quote: In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob. Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it. You don't actually believe that those conversations never get leaked, do you? Some beat writers are definitely plugged in and get inside info. Talking more in general than specific giants beat writers but plenty of beat writers across all sports have had good sources inside of organizations.

I don't think Schoen or Mara would leak the convo. And it would be private between them. Is that unreasonable?

In comment 16288322 MookGiants said:

Quote:

In comment 16288308 NorcalNYG said: Quote: In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob. Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it. You don't actually believe that those conversations never get leaked, do you? Some beat writers are definitely plugged in and get inside info. Talking more in general than specific giants beat writers but plenty of beat writers across all sports have had good sources inside of organizations.

They absolutely get inside info, but from a private conversation between the gm and owner I highly doubt it.

from on high “in the press room”, and exposes his ignorance and elitism.

Being that he invoked BBI, I hope admin torches him with a response - a pic of Bobby with clown nose would be appropriate.

In comment 16288264 Scooter185 said:

Quote:

Twitter if he's still calling social forums "chat rooms" Does he still pay for AOL?

LMAO. Bob Papa still uses Instant Messenger.

That had better not be the case.

That's not scouting.

In comment 16288308 NorcalNYG said:

Quote:

In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob. Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it.

Yet every year before the draft poster after poster here bitches about the front office leaking info about the Giants plans. You don't think there are people in the front office who would share info about owners limiting the GM's effectiveness? And if they are not leaking to help their boss, they are leaking because they want people to think they are in the know. You don't understand human nature.

This isn't the NSA or the CIA, which have had leaks. It's a football team.

Another shill. Him, PDot and Banks all defending Judge and Gettleman nonstop until they got fired.

sensitive. So what if he calls it a "chat room," just because of a change in lingo doesn't mean it isn't.

We should be proud BBI is recognized by Papa, because if Papa brings it up, the rest of the Org looks it over too.n But we knew that anyway.

Bet when everyone wakes up this will be a lively thread.(or is it chat?)

Jerry Reese could not have refused to give Eli Manning his four year extension in September 2015. If he had insisted on that point, Mara would have fired him, point blank.

When Reese did try to move on from Eli in December 2017, Mara fired him for that.

Whom doth the protesting Papa thinketh he's kidding?

In comment 16288356 section125 said:

Quote:

sensitive. So what if he calls it a "chat room," just because of a change in lingo doesn't mean it isn't. We should be proud BBI is recognized by Papa, because if Papa brings it up, the rest of the Org looks it over too.n But we knew that anyway. Bet when everyone wakes up this will be a lively thread.(or is it chat?)

Agree on this. Some of the people on this board would love to find a flaw on anyone and cut them down. Who cares about the lingo. I am happy that Papa recognizes BBI.

He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill.

That's rich.

Film at 11

In comment 16288360 oghwga said:

Quote:

He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill. That's rich.

Yep.

In comment 16288362 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Film at 11

Of course he would...but defending the boss with the truth is not wrong.
I have no doubt the JM has an opinion on some players, (obviously Shep is there because of JM IMV). I have no doubt that when Schoen tells JM they need a QB he will wince. But he will not stand in Schoen's way because I am sure Schoen will explain why he is doing it.

Involving 2 people who passed on over 20 years ago

We have had 4 GMs since.

And he thinks this is evidence for what is happening now between John & Chris Mara and Joe Schoen?

Hours shows the owners are feeling the pressure. Not a good sign. I hope they don’t do something rash and stupid.

There is a current lawsuit from Brian Flores against the NY Giants that includes direct messages from Tim McConnell (a Mara) to Flores that occurred during our HC search that our brand new GM was supposedly running free from ownership interference.

“Flores said that the next day Schoen finalized his interview date for Jan. 27, and Giants co-director of player personnel Tim McDonnell texted Flores, saying he hoped he would "come in and win the f-ing job."

In comment 16288377 HardTruth said:

Quote:

There is a current lawsuit from Brian Flores against the NY Giants that includes direct messages from Tim McConnell (a Mara) to Flores that occurred during our HC search that our brand new GM was supposedly running free from ownership interference. “Flores said that the next day Schoen finalized his interview date for Jan. 27, and Giants co-director of player personnel Tim McDonnell texted Flores, saying he hoped he would "come in and win the f-ing job."

What is your point?

was cupping Mara's balls as he was responding.

In my interactions with Papa, he strikes me as the kind of guy who would actually believe he's voting in North Korea.

It's that time of year. The Giants are scraping the barrel, someone in the communications department at 125 had too much chardonnay, and decided to go after the fans on Twitter.

A tradition unlike any other.

In comment 16288377 HardTruth said:

Quote:

There is a current lawsuit from Brian Flores against the NY Giants that includes direct messages from Tim McConnell (a Mara) to Flores that occurred during our HC search that our brand new GM was supposedly running free from ownership interference. “Flores said that the next day Schoen finalized his interview date for Jan. 27, and Giants co-director of player personnel Tim McDonnell texted Flores, saying he hoped he would "come in and win the f-ing job."

I was about to mention Timmy was named in the Flores lawsuit fiasco along with Bill Belicheck, who allegely texted Flores to congratulate him on getting the Giants HC job which presumably he heard through sources at the Giants. But I digress, it is good to see that Giants State Media is in full on deflection mode so that they can get ahead of the next Medium Pepsi Meltdown on Giants fan unappreciation day this year. I will believe John Mara has no influence on Giants roster decisions when his brother and nephew are no longer in senior level positions in the personnel department.

In comment 16288360 oghwga said:

Quote:

He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill. That's rich.

Some people have their heads so far up into cyberspace that they have lost sight of reality. They believe THIS is the real world.

right?

In comment 16288391 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

right?

Yes, but only since 1988. He did have two whole years after graduating college in which a Mara wasn’t signing his paychecks.

In comment 16288381 christian said:

Quote:

In my interactions with Papa, he strikes me as the kind of guy who would actually believe he's voting in North Korea. It's that time of year. The Giants are scraping the barrel, someone in the communications department at 125 had too much chardonnay, and decided to go after the fans on Twitter. A tradition unlike any other.

We saw the Jonathan Jones CBS report on Sunday which said Daboll & Schoen were safe and they would not hesitate to draft a QB.

Then the Vacchiano Jones report saying sources still believe he can be the long term QB.

Now Papa going off on Twitter.

Going to be a fun 8 weeks.

In comment 16288400 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16288381 christian said: Quote: In my interactions with Papa, he strikes me as the kind of guy who would actually believe he's voting in North Korea. It's that time of year. The Giants are scraping the barrel, someone in the communications department at 125 had too much chardonnay, and decided to go after the fans on Twitter. A tradition unlike any other. We saw the Jonathan Jones CBS report on Sunday which said Daboll & Schoen were safe and they would not hesitate to draft a QB. Then the Vacchiano Jones report saying sources still believe he can be the long term QB. Now Papa going off on Twitter. Going to be a fun 8 weeks.

Well it is more entertaining than the football....

In comment 16288400 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16288381 christian said: Quote: In my interactions with Papa, he strikes me as the kind of guy who would actually believe he's voting in North Korea. It's that time of year. The Giants are scraping the barrel, someone in the communications department at 125 had too much chardonnay, and decided to go after the fans on Twitter. A tradition unlike any other. We saw the Jonathan Jones CBS report on Sunday which said Daboll & Schoen were safe and they would not hesitate to draft a QB. Then the Vacchiano Jones report saying sources still believe he can be the long term QB. Now Papa going off on Twitter. Going to be a fun 8 weeks.

Just wait for the Paul Dottino meltdown, which should be coming shortly.

A lot of insecure people in that building.

is the timing of this. Why is Bob Papa - who works for the team - finally discussing this now? After 12 years?

In comment 16288408 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

is the timing of this. Why is Bob Papa - who works for the team - finally discussing this now? After 12 years?

Blowback for the Vacchiano article. If that was a trial balloon, they got their answer.

If the Giants pass on a QB & give us these excuses about Jones & run it back…

Oh boy.

It’s been his loyalty to the previous two GMs who he let run the franchise into the ground. That’s what he really has had authority over. Who is the GM. Reese should have been gone with TC and DG never hired at all.

Same people there every time he goes back. Dating back to the early 90's

But yeah - just "chat room" stuff

That HE, and others that work there, spend time on often. Reading chat room stuff.

Irony

truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up.

While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon.

Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists.

In comment 16288360 oghwga said:

Quote:

He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill. That's rich.

I don't think it's because he used antiquated lingo. I think it's because he's just operating in his state media role. Any other reason needed to praise Tim? Or to pretend like a GM and HC didn't get punitively fired for their involvement in the Eli fiasco?

Besides, as others have noted, why would even Papa be privy to a conversation between Mara and Schoen and no one else? And if Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara are in senior executive roles (and Tim is so awesome), do they not weigh in on personnel matters?

If it's a no-show job, why put them in player personnel roles? Either those seats are effectively empty or the Mara family absolutely has a voice embedded in the room. Neither one of those scenarios is great for the Giants. And the latter is definitely not hands-off.

This is phase two of the trial balloon exercise that began yesterday, for anyone keeping track.

but coming from Papa, who I have nothing against, I will add more than a grain of salt. Bob is a company guy. Nothing wrong with that, but it clouds some of what he says.

In comment 16288418 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16288360 oghwga said: Quote: He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill. That's rich. I don't think it's because he used antiquated lingo. I think it's because he's just operating in his state media role. Any other reason needed to praise Tim? Or to pretend like a GM and HC didn't get punitively fired for their involvement in the Eli fiasco? Besides, as others have noted, why would even Papa be privy to a conversation between Mara and Schoen and no one else? And if Tim McDonnell and Chris Mara are in senior executive roles (and Tim is so awesome), do they not weigh in on personnel matters? If it's a no-show job, why put them in player personnel roles? Either those seats are effectively empty or the Mara family absolutely has a voice embedded in the room. Neither one of those scenarios is great for the Giants. And the latter is definitely not hands-off. This is phase two of the trial balloon exercise that began yesterday, for anyone keeping track.

*McConnell

?

In comment 16288412 BillT said:

Quote:

It’s been his loyalty to the previous two GMs who he let run the franchise into the ground. That’s what he really has had authority over. Who is the GM. Reese should have been gone with TC and DG never hired at all.

You are right, but the loyalty is a good trait, even if detrimental. I am sure he is in some way trying to mimic the Steelers - 3 HCs since 1969? Stable front office.

I agree that Reese should have been gone with TC and IMV both should have been gone after 2013 maybe 2014(hard to do).

But this time I think they need to stick with Schoen for awhile. I do think Daboll has to let Johnson and McGaughey go as they have really underperformed.
The under development of Neal and Ezeudu is telling. I am really ticked about Ezeudu. He looked so good in his 1st camp and nothing has developed.

Slater saying he needs to stop hiding and speak for the dumpster fire. The worst thing that could happen is Mara speaking.
Link - ( New Window )

Fans are pissed at all the losing over the past decade plus. The common denominator is ownership. We've been through multiple GMs, coaching staff, etc. Yet Papa's evidence that the fans are wrong is Wellington Mara getting annoyed with Young that he got rid of Bavaro and Simms? What does this have to do with John Mara, the recent GMs, and recent coaching staffs?

Lol, Bob nails it.

You guys will call him out as a shill, because the alternative is to admit you were wrong

Two years ago we heard. Mara

Will retain judge, wrong

He ll retain Gettleman. Wrong

He ll hire Abrams. Wrong

He ll force the tag on Jones. Wrong

None of this mattered. As soon a Schoen decides he wanted to sign Jones, the hysteria returned in full force. MARA

Arm chair analysis of the inner workings of the Giants front office based on opinions presented as facts is a staple here.

It has now reached a level that the view of a man who has personal relationships with the organization , is dismissed because it doesn’t fit the narrative

Discussing this issue here is akin to trying to convince those who believe the games are fixed, that they are not; it is an exercise in futility

It must be nice to have a default setting that enables you to never have to admit you are wrong. It s not valid, but it is convient

Mara didn't say he was surprisee. He said he was heartbroken. That doesn't mean he wasn't involved. Beckham truly made that decision, not the Giants.

They've had a lot of studies that show it doesn't take much for a boss to influence a decision by someone that reports to them.

So while I'm sure Mara feels like he isn't meddling and is giving Schoen full autonomy. Even just making comments publicly about things like not giving Jones a fair chance to prove himself, can send a message to Schoen that Mara wants to keep him. I'm sure within the confines of the Giants offices, there is a lot of the same behavior.

"Joe, you run the show, do whatever you want"

"Thanks John, just letting you know we may need to let Barkley walk"

"I fully understand Joe, do what you need to. Its just a shame, he's such a good player and such a good teammate, I really hope we can find a way to keep him here but I get it..."

A good example right there of an interaction where Mara feels like he's giving Schoen autonomy but is also passive aggressively steering decisions.

In comment 16288260 RetroJint said:

Quote:

No question . He wanted to give Judge another year . Judge talked himself out of the job. He and Tisch chose Schoen. And that’s been it . Papa is wrong on the Bavaro release . Young tried to release Mark , while giving him only a 70K workers’ compensation settlement . Squint was in . Only after a public uproar did they give Bavaro a decent severance . He’s right on Simms. Mara weighed in on Young and Reeves to not cut Phil loose . But he wouldn’t override them .

He couldn't. That was the deal when Young was hired.

And does the GM have the sole authority to cut a $40 million check? Typically, that's not how a business operates.

In comment 16288427 Sean said:

Quote:

Slater saying he needs to stop hiding and speak for the dumpster fire. The worst thing that could happen is Mara speaking. Link - ( New Window )

Given enough time that dude Slater will start shitting on the Giant's Gatorade squirters. His constant hyperbolic Giants whining sounds like Al Sharpton crossed with Eeyore.

In comment 16288417 ThomasG said:

Quote:

truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up. While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon. Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists.

Sure it is. The fact they didn’t want to pay him $23 million for a year then ultimately wind up overpaying him after an unexpectedly exciting season says it all actually.

No way they could sell not signing Jones to the Maras and fanbase.

“The Giants are back” remember?…

In comment 16288430 joeinpa said:

Quote:

Lol, Bob nails it. You guys will call him out as a shill, because the alternative is to admit you were wrong Two years ago we heard. Mara Will retain judge, wrong He ll retain Gettleman. Wrong He ll hire Abrams. Wrong He ll force the tag on Jones. Wrong None of this mattered. As soon a Schoen decides he wanted to sign Jones, the hysteria returned in full force. MARA Arm chair analysis of the inner workings of the Giants front office based on opinions presented as facts is a staple here. It has now reached a level that the view of a man who has personal relationships with the organization , is dismissed because it doesn’t fit the narrative Discussing this issue here is akin to trying to convince those who believe the games are fixed, that they are not; it is an exercise in futility It must be nice to have a default setting that enables you to never have to admit you are wrong. It s not valid, but it is convient

Don’t forget singing Saquon to a long term deal.

In comment 16288362 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Film at 11

LOL. Sure, and they can followed that up with: fans entrenched in online narrative, no facts, refuse to entertain any other conclusion.

In comment 16288414 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

Same people there every time he goes back. Dating back to the early 90's But yeah - just "chat room" stuff That HE, and others that work there, spend time on often. Reading chat room stuff. Irony

So true. The fact they have to spend their time defending the team against chat room talk is ironic.

In comment 16288438 SirLoinOfBeef said:

Quote:

In comment 16288417 ThomasG said: Quote: truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up. While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon. Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists. Sure it is. The fact they didn’t want to pay him $23 million for a year then ultimately wind up overpaying him after an unexpectedly exciting season says it all actually. No way they could sell not signing Jones to the Maras and fanbase. “The Giants are back” remember?…

That makes no sense. If Schoen's hands are tied by the Mara's who love Jones, then the 5th year option is a slam-dunk.

This is why trying to perpetuate this fictional story is hard. Because you have to keep it going and fit actual common-sense facts and events into as well.

In comment 16288430 joeinpa said:

Quote:

Lol, Bob nails it. You guys will call him out as a shill, because the alternative is to admit you were wrong Two years ago we heard. Mara Will retain judge, wrong He ll retain Gettleman. Wrong He ll hire Abrams. Wrong He ll force the tag on Jones. Wrong None of this mattered. As soon a Schoen decides he wanted to sign Jones, the hysteria returned in full force. MARA Arm chair analysis of the inner workings of the Giants front office based on opinions presented as facts is a staple here. It has now reached a level that the view of a man who has personal relationships with the organization , is dismissed because it doesn’t fit the narrative Discussing this issue here is akin to trying to convince those who believe the games are fixed, that they are not; it is an exercise in futility It must be nice to have a default setting that enables you to never have to admit you are wrong. It s not valid, but it is convient

But was John not too loyal to Gettleman?
They were going to retain Judge until the press conference.
They were going to hire Abrams until they got lambasted by national media for only hiring people they know.
They did worse than the franchise tag, which Mara definitely had a hand in. How much is up for debate.

Being skeptical is one thing, but some of you are steadfast convinced of yourselves. It's like, we need to go back and remind people not to believe everything they read online. Just too funny. Someone who is actually in position to know makes a comment --which by the way by no means paints Mara in a great light (his comments about Mara fondness of Jones for having mannerisms similar to Eli is so obviously his opinion and flat out not a company narrative)-- and people immediately jump all over it including critiquing his tech terminology to discredit it (LOL), because it doesn't jive with what they believe. Wake up call people --you don't know shit, haha.

Saying the Giants are likely taking a QB

Then Ralph writes an article, clearly pushed to him by management, saying some still believe in Jones. They get laughed at over that, and the theories start being thrown at them that he’s doing Mara’s bidding.

Then you get Papa saying Mara isn’t in the way. The math isn’t that hard to figure out.

In comment 16288448 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

Saying the Giants are likely taking a QB Then Ralph writes an article, clearly pushed to him by management, saying some still believe in Jones. They get laughed at over that, and the theories start being thrown at them that he’s doing Mara’s bidding. Then you get Papa saying Mara isn’t in the way. The math isn’t that hard to figure out.

Most important thing is that the trial balloon got a strong answer.

before the season almost everyone was happy that Schoen turned down the 5th year option. (me too)
Now, some are infuriated it wasn't extended...

Ex-post facto....

In comment 16288381 christian said:

Quote:

In my interactions with Papa, he strikes me as the kind of guy who would actually believe he's voting in North Korea. It's that time of year. The Giants are scraping the barrel, someone in the communications department at 125 had too much chardonnay, and decided to go after the fans on Twitter. A tradition unlike any other.

And you’ve had so many personal interactions with Papa that gives you significant greater insight into him personally than almost everyone else who’s listened to him for years?

Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired.

So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out.

Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has.

In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person.

The answer has to be a trial balloon. It's clear as day.

In comment 16288453 UberAlias said:

Quote:

The answer has to be a trial balloon. It's clear as day.

Why wouldn't it be a trial balloon? That's how the Giants use the media and have for decades. Again, nothing inherently wrong with that, but it informs the narrative.

In comment 16288453 UberAlias said:

Quote:

The answer has to be a trial balloon. It's clear as day.

As Spock would say "Interesting"

But are they Chinese trial balloons?

makes me wonder if they actually pay attention to the games. A damn rookie corner is telling them Jones is first read only and stares down receivers. Lol.

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out.

The best decision was always the franchise tag, and it was true 12 months ago. It’s not hindsight

In comment 16288458 logman said:

Quote:

In comment 16288453 UberAlias said: Quote: The answer has to be a trial balloon. It's clear as day. Why wouldn't it be a trial balloon? That's how the Giants use the media and have for decades. Again, nothing inherently wrong with that, but it informs the narrative.

How do you know that's how they have used the media for decades? Because someone online told you and you believed it? What I know for fact is that Mara reads hundreds of emails and letters from fans. I know this because I have written him and he has responded and I know others who have too. So the notion that a "trial balloon" would even be necessary much less a widely used tactic should be taken with a grain of salt. Yet here you are, stating it as a self evident fact.

In comment 16288463 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. The best decision was always the franchise tag, and it was true 12 months ago. It’s not hindsight

They should have let him hit the open market.

plays WRT to the NYG predates the advent of the internet, so, no.

and which ones aren't.

Like you have the Secret NYG Decoder Ring that tells you that.

to the deal they did, unfortunately.

Even Papa is smart enough to know in a complex organization, with an owner whose only business is football, there isn't an exclusive uniform and tidy chain of decisions.

Did Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese have full autonomy on who played quarterback in 2017?

But that's all just noise. The real problem is the going gets tough for the Giants, and their media relations outfit tangles with their customers.

Great look guys!

In comment 16288408 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

is the timing of this. Why is Bob Papa - who works for the team - finally discussing this now? After 12 years?

They have obviously seen/heard the fan sentiment that the problems with this team run across GMs to the ownership. BBI is probably a huge source of that.

This is something they are sensitive to. It is something Mara was asked about when Schoen was hired.

Mara weighing in on Jones publicly is meddling, whether he wants to call it that or not. All meddling is not "Hey Joe, you need to re-sign Jones ASAP or you're fired." Sometimes it is "We have done everything we can to screw him up."

In comment 16288479 christian said:

Quote:

But that's all just noise. The real problem is the going gets tough for the Giants, and their media relations outfit tangles with their customers. Great look guys!

This is the bigger problem with the Giants going back to Pat Hanlon. "The Giants are awesome and if you don't see it, it is because you are an idiot."

Their public relations and media presence are a disaster and have been for a very long time. They expect blind loyalty and support from fans regardless of what product they put on the field. Winning comes from hard work and skill, losing comes from injuries and unfortunate events outside of anyone's control.

In comment 16288476 UberAlias said:

Quote:

to the deal they did, unfortunately.

That's correct.

I guess Team Mara forgot to send up the trial balloons to get the fan base to tell them that the Franchise Tag was the smarter play.

Or scarier, they sent up the trial balloons and the answer came back to sign him to $40M/year deal. So they did.

So to the fans that answered that balloon...thanks a lot.

In comment 16288476 UberAlias said:

Quote:

to the deal they did, unfortunately.

Ha. Yeah. Like I said ex post facto.

In comment 16288414 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

Same people there every time he goes back. Dating back to the early 90's But yeah - just "chat room" stuff That HE, and others that work there, spend time on often. Reading chat room stuff. Irony

_________________
Same people there except for his old girlfriend.

In comment 16288433 Biteymax22 said:

Quote:

They've had a lot of studies that show it doesn't take much for a boss to influence a decision by someone that reports to them. So while I'm sure Mara feels like he isn't meddling and is giving Schoen full autonomy. Even just making comments publicly about things like not giving Jones a fair chance to prove himself, can send a message to Schoen that Mara wants to keep him. I'm sure within the confines of the Giants offices, there is a lot of the same behavior. "Joe, you run the show, do whatever you want" "Thanks John, just letting you know we may need to let Barkley walk" "I fully understand Joe, do what you need to. Its just a shame, he's such a good player and such a good teammate, I really hope we can find a way to keep him here but I get it..." A good example right there of an interaction where Mara feels like he's giving Schoen autonomy but is also passive aggressively steering decisions.

EXACTLY.
This is how business works in the US everywhere.
I don't understand why people get bent out of shape about it.
It is what it is...
It doesn't make the Mara's bad owners.

In comment 16288479 christian said:

Quote:

Even Papa is smart enough to know in a complex organization, with an owner whose only business is football, there isn't an exclusive uniform and tidy chain of decisions. Did Ben McAdoo and Jerry Reese have full autonomy on who played quarterback in 2017? But that's all just noise. The real problem is the going gets tough for the Giants, and their media relations outfit tangles with their customers. Great look guys!

I think beyond personnel, the Giants have a history of giving lifetime appointments. Would Pat Hanlon ever get fired? Would Ronnie Barnes ever get fired?

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person.

EXACTLY.
These are some of the most reasonable posts I've seen on BBI in months.

In comment 16288442 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16288438 SirLoinOfBeef said: Quote: In comment 16288417 ThomasG said: Quote: truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up. While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon. Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists. Sure it is. The fact they didn’t want to pay him $23 million for a year then ultimately wind up overpaying him after an unexpectedly exciting season says it all actually. No way they could sell not signing Jones to the Maras and fanbase. “The Giants are back” remember?… That makes no sense. If Schoen's hands are tied by the Mara's who love Jones, then the 5th year option is a slam-dunk. This is why trying to perpetuate this fictional story is hard. Because you have to keep it going and fit actual common-sense facts and events into as well.

It's called confirmation bias. Plenty of people on this board are guilty of it when it comes to Mara.

Even if the Giants draft a QB next year, if it isn't the QB that some fans want (e.g., let's say it's McCarthy but tje fan wants Daniels) they will blame Mara.

In comment 16288505 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person. EXACTLY. These are some of the most reasonable posts I've seen on BBI in months.

Actually no. This is not reasonable. You don't sign a mega contract to a mediocre player because you're afraid to be laughed out of the building. That's how you get this.

You sign worthy players only to big contracts. Schoen and Daboll are in their positions because they're supposed to know the difference

In comment 16288505 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person. EXACTLY. These are some of the most reasonable posts I've seen on BBI in months.

100%. People are acting as if everyone except Schoen and Daboll knew exactly how the season would turn out before it started. No one can predict the future.

the RV article, Papa with an ironic 2nd tack-on ... pay attention, this is what has gone on prior to a number of significant decisions and changes over the past 10 years plus.

news at 11.

He is correct that Wellington allowed Young more free rein, but let’s not forget why George Young was hired in the first place. And the issue isn’t John Mara telling the GM what he should do, it’s John Mara hiring the GM who tells him what he wants to hear.

Now I don’t think this is the case with Schoen, but it almost certainly was with DG, who continued to extol the virtues of Eli when most of BBI knew he was running on fumes. If the Giants have a 1 or 2 pick, and pass on taking a QB in a historically good QB class, I’m going to be more than a little dubious that John Mara didn’t influence that decision.

In comment 16288446 UberAlias said:

Quote:

Being skeptical is one thing, but some of you are steadfast convinced of yourselves. It's like, we need to go back and remind people not to believe everything they read online. Just too funny. Someone who is actually in position to know makes a comment --which by the way by no means paints Mara in a great light (his comments about Mara fondness of Jones for having mannerisms similar to Eli is so obviously his opinion and flat out not a company narrative)-- and people immediately jump all over it including critiquing his tech terminology to discredit it (LOL), because it doesn't jive with what they believe. Wake up call people --you don't know shit, haha.

That wasn’t Papa that said that about Maras mannerisms similar to Eli. It was some cat named AngryKnicksfan. Papa responded to it by basically saying it’s absurd and the dude is getting his info from “chat rooms”.

In comment 16288512 RCPhoenix said:

Quote:

In comment 16288505 Dnew15 said: Quote: In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person. EXACTLY. These are some of the most reasonable posts I've seen on BBI in months. 100%. People are acting as if everyone except Schoen and Daboll knew exactly how the season would turn out before it started. No one can predict the future.

I expected a at minimum competitive team. You don't throw a 3rd round pick at a tight end with a huge contract if you don't expect to compete. I was aware the record could be worse because we won a lot of close games last year. Never in my right mind expected this.

would have laughed at the Giants for slapping the franchise tag on Jones. You can tell that because of the way the media reacted to the contract he signed, which people thought at the time was too much.

I will admit after last year I thought a bridge deal for Jones was a good idea because there was nobody else to take the reigns right away, but I would not have given him $40M because it should have been clear that he was the QB "for now."

Thankfully I think we can be done with this silliness soon and turn the page to a more hopeful future with this team when Jones is out of the building and we can all stop wringing hands on exactly what went wrong and just all accept it went wrong and now it is over.

In comment 16288515 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 16288446 UberAlias said: Quote: Being skeptical is one thing, but some of you are steadfast convinced of yourselves. It's like, we need to go back and remind people not to believe everything they read online. Just too funny. Someone who is actually in position to know makes a comment --which by the way by no means paints Mara in a great light (his comments about Mara fondness of Jones for having mannerisms similar to Eli is so obviously his opinion and flat out not a company narrative)-- and people immediately jump all over it including critiquing his tech terminology to discredit it (LOL), because it doesn't jive with what they believe. Wake up call people --you don't know shit, haha. That wasn’t Papa that said that about Maras mannerisms similar to Eli. It was some cat named AngryKnicksfan. Papa responded to it by basically saying it’s absurd and the dude is getting his info from “chat rooms”.

Ugh. Jones’ mannerisms similar to Eli…

In comment 16288510 jinkies said:

Quote:

In comment 16288505 Dnew15 said: Quote: In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person. EXACTLY. These are some of the most reasonable posts I've seen on BBI in months. Actually no. This is not reasonable. You don't sign a mega contract to a mediocre player because you're afraid to be laughed out of the building. That's how you get this. You sign worthy players only to big contracts. Schoen and Daboll are in their positions because they're supposed to know the difference

If you think that Jones signed a "mega contract" then you are misinformed on what the NFL mega contract market looks like.

Go look at the contracts for Mahomes/Burrow/Murray/Watson/Herbert/Allen.

coming out with this reeks of an overly sensitive exec, but why do the Giants care? Why bother trying to convince a subset of the fans, the vast majority of which have no idea what they are talking about?

In comment 16288529 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

coming out with this reeks of an overly sensitive exec, but why do the Giants care? Why bother trying to convince a subset of the fans, the vast majority of which have no idea what they are talking about?

Don’t be so hard on yourself. You may not have any idea of what you’re talking about but Mara would approve of your fierce loyalty to Daniel Jones, regardless of knowledge level

In comment 16288514 Section331 said:

Quote:

news at 11. He is correct that Wellington allowed Young more free rein, but let’s not forget why George Young was hired in the first place. And the issue isn’t John Mara telling the GM what he should do, it’s John Mara hiring the GM who tells him what he wants to hear. Now I don’t think this is the case with Schoen, but it almost certainly was with DG, who continued to extol the virtues of Eli when most of BBI knew he was running on fumes. If the Giants have a 1 or 2 pick, and pass on taking a QB in a historically good QB class, I’m going to be more than a little dubious that John Mara didn’t influence that decision.

Bingo.

In comment 16288525 Dnew15 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288510 jinkies said: Actually no. This is not reasonable. You don't sign a mega contract to a mediocre player because you're afraid to be laughed out of the building. That's how you get this. You sign worthy players only to big contracts. Schoen and Daboll are in their positions because they're supposed to know the difference If you think that Jones signed a "mega contract" then you are misinformed on what the NFL mega contract market looks like. Go look at the contracts for Mahomes/Burrow/Murray/Watson/Herbert/Allen.

ok.. so now $100M is not a lot of money. Fine. When Jones signed the contract, it was top-8 all-time in total NFL contract value. And it was top 12-ish all time in guarantee. Whatever you call that, I call it mega, but whatever YOU call that, it's ludicrous for a player with Jones' resume.

I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this.

I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies.

Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair.

Enjoy!

In comment 16288360 oghwga said:

Quote:

He has no credibility and some of you guys know more than him. He's in the building all the time and is is in the know more than anyone here but because he's telling you you're wrong suddenly he's a shill. That's rich.

A couple of us made a joke about him calling BBI a chat room, no one was impugning his credibility because of it.

In comment 16288510 jinkies said:

Quote:

Actually no. This is not reasonable. You don't sign a mega contract to a mediocre player because you're afraid to be laughed out of the building. That's how you get this. You sign worthy players only to big contracts. Schoen and Daboll are in their positions because they're supposed to know the difference

I'm sticking with "ex post facto". Jones played far better last year than anyone(I suspect Daboll and Schoen too) expected.

It is not a mega deal - it is mid-level. Some called for the tag to be used. It would have been reasonable to do so, true. Jones made a huge jump last year and I even remember SY saying something to the effect of - get this guy some pro level WRs and they may have something (close to that anway). I admit I changed my mind on him mid-season.
Obviously the Viking game(actually both of them) dwarfed everyone's reason and the Eagle game should have been a clue. Which one was the true Jones. Obviously Daboll thought he had something and so did Schoen, in a way. Remember that while $40 mill is nothing to sneeze at, but 5 years $160 mill is not unreasonable, especially when they can get out after two seasons.

In the end, Jones is only one of the reasons the rug was pulled out from underneath the Giants this year. Probably more importantly, is as brilliant as Daboll was last season, he is the opposite this year. Almost Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde.

While injuries are probably the biggest factor in a bad season, the poor offensive line play is at least equal and probably bigger than Jones flopping.
There are many big reasons for this dismal season, Jones, Daboll, offensive line and injuries.

..

In comment 16288537 djm said:

Quote:

I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this. I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies. Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair. Enjoy!

Didn’t that come out last year?

we don’t have to look very far to find evidence of Mara meddling in personnel decisions. It was reported a couple of years ago by reliable sources that McAdoo was urging a trade up to take Pat Mahomes and was scoffed at because the Giants already had their eyes on a QB - Davis Webb. When that report came it, other reporters confirmed it and added that it was Chris Mara.

I’m not trying to defend McAdoo, he was awful, but he did realize that Eli had declined, and did pick out an underappreciated talent who is now the best QB in football. We don’t know what conversations go on between Schoen and John/Chris/Tim, neither does Bob Papa, but the idea that Chris and Tim report to Schoen while at the same time being his bosses is the most fucked up arrangement possible. I don’t know how even the most ardent Mara defenders can argue that.

fucking wing nuts behavior.

Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias.

top 8 to 12 all time. For a player who nobody had on top 100 lists, even before this season. Only people in a Giants bubble view it as anything but a botched deal, and a mega payout for a mediocrity, which many observers were saying when the deal was inked.

because teams fear they will miss the playoffs or worse if they deploy a worse than mediocre QB. Teams do this all the time. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Ask the Washington Commies if they regret letting Kirk Cousins walk 5-6 years ago. They likely make the playoffs 2-3 more times if they had a PRO QB. Instead they go 9-8 with a bottle of beer.

Or, fixate on this contract every day. Keep bringing it up and replaying the numbers in your head day after day. That's healthy.

In comment 16288427 Sean said:

Quote:

Slater saying he needs to stop hiding and speak for the dumpster fire. The worst thing that could happen is Mara speaking. Link - ( New Window )

Personally I'd love for Mara to go on record and answer some very specific questions about the organization, how personnel decisions are made, how they evaluate themselves, etc.

Is John Mara a meddler, or if this mess is a Schoen/Daboll creation (building on the smoldering wreckage left behind by Dave Gettleman) does Mara's organization simply suck at hiring football people?

Maybe he's not dictating these decisions. Maybe he's just an imbecile who has no idea what a modern-day NFL operation is suppose to look like.

In comment 16288546 jinkies said:

Quote:

top 8 to 12 all time. For a player who nobody had on top 100 lists, even before this season. Only people in a Giants bubble view it as anything but a botched deal, and a mega payout for a mediocrity, which many observers were saying when the deal was inked.

You’re right about the money not being mid-level, but the fact remains that it had an out after 2 years. That isn’t even close to being a huge contract. Stop throwing around $160M, that number is meaningless, it’s a 2-year, $82M contract. The per year figure is high, but the 2-year commitment is anything but.

Thru the media for this franchise?

It's not. I dont get why we would forget recent and lengthy history.

In comment 16288544 djm said:

Quote:

fucking wing nuts behavior. Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias.

People treat their own opinions as 100% facts. So much so, they attack you personally and your intelligence. Stuff people would never say directly to your face.

If you really want to read a tarot card that fucks up your morning -- think of the reasons why State Media would be directed to put all of this on Schoen today.

1) Vote of no confidence in Schoen
2) Vote of no confidence in Daboll
3) Laying the foundation for more voices to be involved moving forward

Now, doofus Papa could just have been drinking, and ran his mouth on his own.

But if he's speaking on behalf of the organization, he's saying Schoen fucked this up all on his own.

when Dallas hits that big bad salary cap wall due to the Dak contract. Weren't they supposed to completely suck by now? Behold, Dallas is about to EXTEND Dak. The same Dak everyone agrees is probably closer to average than elite but the same Dak that helps Dallas curb stomp NYG every year and the same team that wins 10-12 games every year.

One more time, teams are going to pay average PRO QBs because the alternative can be far far worse. GMS get fired. Head coaches get fired if teams fail to win 7-10 games and most of the time the disparity between pretty good QB and bad is the main reason why teams don't win.

You don't have to agree with. Maybe you have your own system that the world needs to acknowledge but you are ignoring the cold hard truths of the NFL and how teams operate.

Teams live in fear of the truly bad QB that has no business playing in the NFL. They would rather pay the 6 then lose with the 3.

In comment 16288553 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288546 jinkies said: Quote: top 8 to 12 all time. For a player who nobody had on top 100 lists, even before this season. Only people in a Giants bubble view it as anything but a botched deal, and a mega payout for a mediocrity, which many observers were saying when the deal was inked. You’re right about the money not being mid-level, but the fact remains that it had an out after 2 years. That isn’t even close to being a huge contract. Stop throwing around $160M, that number is meaningless, it’s a 2-year, $82M contract. The per year figure is high, but the 2-year commitment is anything but.

yes. It's good that we can get out after 2 years. Yes. It's good they didn't treat him like Joe Burrow. But we're talking about the mismanagement of the franchise. This is ground zero. When their hands are tied in 2024 and they have no margin for error and no ability to maneuver, this is the reason. They threw big money at a bad player because he won a game against a JV defense. This is the mismanagement worth talking about. Their hands are tied.

In comment 16288542 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288537 djm said: Quote: I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this. I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies. Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair. Enjoy! Didn’t that come out last year?

Nope. Link it. Where's is this huge story? I am not talking about bad GM hirings or bad HC hirings. I want personnel meddling. Facts.

Not one article. EVER. The only thing we have seen is articles detailing Mara's regrets when players he loved were cut or traded.

And I know people here are going to take this as me defending Mara. Yet I am the guy who put Mara on blast for firing Coughlin when he didn't have a worthy successor in mind. I will gladly crush Mara for his hirings.

Mara isn't fucking around in player personnel. Every source known to man has corroborated this stance. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

IT's a pet peeve of mine to call out these takes. Someone has to.

In comment 16288562 djm said:

Quote:

when Dallas hits that big bad salary cap wall due to the Dak contract. Weren't they supposed to completely suck by now? Behold, Dallas is about to EXTEND Dak. The same Dak everyone agrees is probably closer to average than elite but the same Dak that helps Dallas curb stomp NYG every year and the same team that wins 10-12 games every year. One more time, teams are going to pay average PRO QBs because the alternative can be far far worse. GMS get fired. Head coaches get fired if teams fail to win 7-10 games and most of the time the disparity between pretty good QB and bad is the main reason why teams don't win. You don't have to agree with. Maybe you have your own system that the world needs to acknowledge but you are ignoring the cold hard truths of the NFL and how teams operate. Teams live in fear of the truly bad QB that has no business playing in the NFL. They would rather pay the 6 then lose with the 3.

The Dak contract isn't a big problem because he plays at a high level. The last month he is a top-2 QB in the conference. You want to call him "not elite". Whatever. He produces.

I don't mind paying big money to good players. When you pay big money to bad players, you get the 2023 Giants. It matters WHO you pay. There is a good chance Daniel Jones never throws another pass for the NY Giants. Look at his numbers this year, his rankings, and his overall production. When you pay $100M for that, it's hard to overcome.

In comment 16288442 ThomasG said:
[quote] In comment 16288438 SirLoinOfBeef said:


Quote:


In comment 16288417 ThomasG said:


Quote:


truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up.

While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon.

Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists.



Sure it is. The fact they didn’t want to pay him $23 million for a year then ultimately wind up overpaying him after an unexpectedly exciting season says it all actually.

No way they could sell not signing Jones to the Maras and fanbase.

“The Giants are back” remember?…



That makes no sense. If Schoen's hands are tied by the Mara's who love Jones, then the 5th year option is a slam-dunk.

This is why trying to perpetuate this fictional story is hard. Because you have to keep it going and fit actual common-sense facts and events into as well. [/quote

Disagree

If the Giants sucked last year Jones would not be signed. However since they made the playoffs, and Jones wasn't horrible...

was very involved but I also think when Schoen was hired he backed off.

Tisch was very involved in both the GM and HC selections. He has also been in the draft room. This suggests that he was making sure Schoen could run the team imv.

The mess right now is Schoen's. He will be given a opportunity to get out of it but with how this season has played out I would expect a little more scrutiny from ownership.

In comment 16288562 djm said:

Quote:

when Dallas hits that big bad salary cap wall due to the Dak contract. Weren't they supposed to completely suck by now? Behold, Dallas is about to EXTEND Dak. The same Dak everyone agrees is probably closer to average than elite but the same Dak that helps Dallas curb stomp NYG every year and the same team that wins 10-12 games every year.

Not everyone agrees Prescott is average.

He's earned his contract and contributed benefit commensurate with his cost.

This is a bad example.

In comment 16288558 Giantsbigblue said:

Quote:

In comment 16288544 djm said: Quote: fucking wing nuts behavior. Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias. People treat their own opinions as 100% facts. So much so, they attack you personally and your intelligence. Stuff people would never say directly to your face.

Look, if this is about Mara meddling in personnel decisions, I’m sorry, there is ample evidence for it. I mentioned the Mahomes/Davis Webb incident that was well reported, and Paul Schwartz reported that Reese wanted to replace TC with Mike Smith, but John Mara wanted continuity around Eli, so they hired QB guru Pat Shurmur instead.

I don’t know what other examples of meddling you need, unless you’re only willing to Lil stem to reporters who tell you what you want to hear.

not the point in how good he is.

In comment 16288553 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288546 jinkies said: Quote: top 8 to 12 all time. For a player who nobody had on top 100 lists, even before this season. Only people in a Giants bubble view it as anything but a botched deal, and a mega payout for a mediocrity, which many observers were saying when the deal was inked. You’re right about the money not being mid-level, but the fact remains that it had an out after 2 years. That isn’t even close to being a huge contract. Stop throwing around $160M, that number is meaningless, it’s a 2-year, $82M contract. The per year figure is high, but the 2-year commitment is anything but.

And that is mid-level for a QB even with the full $160 mill...

In comment 16288444 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288430 joeinpa said: Quote: Lol, Bob nails it. You guys will call him out as a shill, because the alternative is to admit you were wrong Two years ago we heard. Mara Will retain judge, wrong He ll retain Gettleman. Wrong He ll hire Abrams. Wrong He ll force the tag on Jones. Wrong None of this mattered. As soon a Schoen decides he wanted to sign Jones, the hysteria returned in full force. MARA Arm chair analysis of the inner workings of the Giants front office based on opinions presented as facts is a staple here. It has now reached a level that the view of a man who has personal relationships with the organization , is dismissed because it doesn’t fit the narrative Discussing this issue here is akin to trying to convince those who believe the games are fixed, that they are not; it is an exercise in futility It must be nice to have a default setting that enables you to never have to admit you are wrong. It s not valid, but it is convient But was John not too loyal to Gettleman? They were going to retain Judge until the press conference. They were going to hire Abrams until they got lambasted by national media for only hiring people they know. They did worse than the franchise tag, which Mara definitely had a hand in. How much is up for debate.

Mara was definitely too loyal to Gettleman, I ve said often he is loyal to a fault, not just with DG

They were going to retain Judge. Don’t know how to respond to that except to say They didn’t

I think Jones contract was what Schoen wanted to do, prove I m wrong

Schwartz did a pretty good summary a few years back.
Giants Blunde4 - ( New Window )

In comment 16288583 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288558 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: In comment 16288544 djm said: Quote: fucking wing nuts behavior. Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias. People treat their own opinions as 100% facts. So much so, they attack you personally and your intelligence. Stuff people would never say directly to your face. Look, if this is about Mara meddling in personnel decisions, I’m sorry, there is ample evidence for it. I mentioned the Mahomes/Davis Webb incident that was well reported, and Paul Schwartz reported that Reese wanted to replace TC with Mike Smith, but John Mara wanted continuity around Eli, so they hired QB guru Pat Shurmur instead. I don’t know what other examples of meddling you need, unless you’re only willing to Lil stem to reporters who tell you what you want to hear.

That is not meddling - holy shit. That is an owner being an owner with the coach and GM.

Yes, McAdoo wanted Mahomes it was rumored. Mahomes went 10th, the Giants picked 23rd.....Not sure where your head is, but explain to me how they get from 23rd to 9th?

Papa has already called out the need to get another young QB high in draft if opportunity is there. Basically alluded to it being malpractice if they do not.

In comment 16288583 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288558 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: In comment 16288544 djm said: Quote: fucking wing nuts behavior. Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias. People treat their own opinions as 100% facts. So much so, they attack you personally and your intelligence. Stuff people would never say directly to your face. Look, if this is about Mara meddling in personnel decisions, I’m sorry, there is ample evidence for it. I mentioned the Mahomes/Davis Webb incident that was well reported, and Paul Schwartz reported that Reese wanted to replace TC with Mike Smith, but John Mara wanted continuity around Eli, so they hired QB guru Pat Shurmur instead. I don’t know what other examples of meddling you need, unless you’re only willing to Lil stem to reporters who tell you what you want to hear.

I don't live in the New York area and don't listen to any of it. I'm just all set with people being complete assholes when my opinions don't match theirs or their conspiracy theories.

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person.

Bingo. What were the Giants supposed to do at the QB situation after the season Jones had? His contract doesn't even come close to Burrow or Hurts. I haven't heard any alternatives about who should have been QB this year if Jones wasn't. Now you have people lamenting about the third string QB, most third string QB's are what they are for a reason!

I saw it here or elsewhere, 26 expiring contracts on the roster. That's half the group. Yes this season is entirely wasted, and it's very frustrating. Daboll has been great with in-game decisions this year. Won't deny any of it. But barring something totally unprofessional from Daboll, he's coming back and there will likely be an onus for next year to be much improved.

In comment 16288599 Costy16 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said: Quote: Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person. Bingo. What were the Giants supposed to do at the QB situation after the season Jones had? His contract doesn't even come close to Burrow or Hurts. I haven't heard any alternatives about who should have been QB this year if Jones wasn't. Now you have people lamenting about the third string QB, most third string QB's are what they are for a reason! I saw it here or elsewhere, 26 expiring contracts on the roster. That's half the group. Yes this season is entirely wasted, and it's very frustrating. Daboll has been great with in-game decisions this year. Won't deny any of it. But barring something totally unprofessional from Daboll, he's coming back and there will likely be an onus for next year to be much improved.

Daboll has *not* been great.

An owner gets judged on what happens, anything else is speculative. I don't know if Mara wanted to retain Judge, I'm sure he had a preference to, but he didn't. That's all that matters.

The big issue right now is the Jones contract. That's really all that matters. And right now it looks really bad. You aren't rebuilding with a QB with a $47M cap hit in 2024. The earliest out would cost a $22M dead cap charge in 2025. That is not a rebuilding team.

So there was a massive error in where this roster stood competitively. Someone owns that. Is it all Schoen? If it's all Schoen then it's a Gettleman level miscalculation.

This team is getting embarrassed. This team lost 40-0 week one hosting Dallas.

that people need to pay close attention to what JonC posts. He knows what he's talking about.

In comment 16288574 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 16288542 ajr2456 said: Quote: In comment 16288537 djm said: Quote: I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this. I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies. Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair. Enjoy! Didn’t that come out last year? Nope. Link it. Where's is this huge story? I am not talking about bad GM hirings or bad HC hirings. I want personnel meddling. Facts. Not one article. EVER. The only thing we have seen is articles detailing Mara's regrets when players he loved were cut or traded. And I know people here are going to take this as me defending Mara. Yet I am the guy who put Mara on blast for firing Coughlin when he didn't have a worthy successor in mind. I will gladly crush Mara for his hirings. Mara isn't fucking around in player personnel. Every source known to man has corroborated this stance. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. IT's a pet peeve of mine to call out these takes. Someone has to.

It was two years ago, not last year. And it was when Mara was preparing to promote Abrams and keep Judge, until the public outcry became too deafening to ignore.

Linked below is the Duggan article from the Athletic, but the more damaging reports came from Tyler Dunne here and here.

You might still have some sand in your ears from burying your head. Such is the plight of the Giants' heroic superfan.

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16288604 IchabodGiant said:

Quote:

that people need to pay close attention to what JonC posts. He knows what he's talking about.

Thanks, not to mention it's as obvious as it can be without punching one square in the face.

In comment 16288579 SirLoinOfBeef said:

Quote:

In comment 16288442 ThomasG said: [quote] In comment 16288438 SirLoinOfBeef said: Quote: In comment 16288417 ThomasG said: Quote: truly is just disgruntled fans getting worked up. While the decision on Jones extension may have gotten input from outside the GMs office, Schoen could have killed that deal at any point and he didn't. He and Daboll made a mistake in their eval of Jones and probably reading of the situation where they were after Year 1. This also tells you why they kept Saquon. Declining the cheap 5th year option on Jones but then watching him play and signing him to a big deal after 2022 is not a helpful fact for the conspiracy theorists. Sure it is. The fact they didn’t want to pay him $23 million for a year then ultimately wind up overpaying him after an unexpectedly exciting season says it all actually. No way they could sell not signing Jones to the Maras and fanbase. “The Giants are back” remember?… That makes no sense. If Schoen's hands are tied by the Mara's who love Jones, then the 5th year option is a slam-dunk. This is why trying to perpetuate this fictional story is hard. Because you have to keep it going and fit actual common-sense facts and events into as well. [/quote Disagree If the Giants sucked last year Jones would not be signed. However since they made the playoffs, and Jones wasn't horrible...

Struggling to see how you are making your point. Agree, Jones and Giants didn't suck last year. What the heck does that have to do with you suggesting Mara is forcing Jones on Schoen/Daboll?

He could have done it earlier with the 5th year option so why didn't he if that is your contention? Did he forget to pull the strings that week?

Make a compelling point or I am moving on.

In comment 16288593 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288583 Section331 said: Quote: In comment 16288558 Giantsbigblue said: Quote: In comment 16288544 djm said: Quote: fucking wing nuts behavior. Dangerous, slippery slope to believe what you choose to believe based on some pre conceived bias. People treat their own opinions as 100% facts. So much so, they attack you personally and your intelligence. Stuff people would never say directly to your face. Look, if this is about Mara meddling in personnel decisions, I’m sorry, there is ample evidence for it. I mentioned the Mahomes/Davis Webb incident that was well reported, and Paul Schwartz reported that Reese wanted to replace TC with Mike Smith, but John Mara wanted continuity around Eli, so they hired QB guru Pat Shurmur instead. I don’t know what other examples of meddling you need, unless you’re only willing to Lil stem to reporters who tell you what you want to hear. That is not meddling - holy shit. That is an owner being an owner with the coach and GM. Yes, McAdoo wanted Mahomes it was rumored. Mahomes went 10th, the Giants picked 23rd.....Not sure where your head is, but explain to me how they get from 23rd to 9th?

That’s not the point. Sure, I get that it would have been hard/impossible to trade up that far, but the issue was McAdoo being shot down because they had their eyes on Davis Webb and DeShone Kizer.

I’m not talking only about John Mara, but about the entire Mara family. Do you not agree that 2 guys reporting to Schoen while still being his boss is a fucked up situation? Should a GM get to hire the HC, or should the owner? That’s a fair call to make, but many here deny that the Mara’s are overly involved in the process. Reese wanting Mike Smith is proof that they are/were.

Quote:

Yet for whatever reason, co-owners John Mara and Steve Tisch conducted an extremely narrow search. The only other people they interviewed were Marc Ross and Kevin Abrams in-house and ESPN analyst Louis Riddick out of house. One source even recalls Gettleman being stunned he got the job. Gettleman promised to keep Eli Manning as his starting quarterback in 2018, per one source, so he got the job.

Quote:

Of course, a different team in the NFC East draws all the criticism when it comes to meddling. Whereas John Mara is widely praised for running a model franchise, Dallas Cowboys owner/GM Jerry Jones has been (justifiably) ripped for poisoning the football department over the last 25 Super Bowl-less seasons. We covered this all at Go Long right here before the 2021 season began. This can manifest itself in small ways. Once, when tackle Russell Okung was interested in signing with the Giants as a free agent, Chris Mara stepped in to say that Okung’s ex-agent calls him an asshole, so, the Giants didn’t sign him. “If a regular scout comes in and says that, you say, ‘Thanks, but no thanks. I appreciate the information but we’re not going to use that because it’s nonsense,’” one source says. “But you’re the senior vice president of personnel and you own the team and you say that, it’s over with. It’s done. There’s zero accountability, zero consequences for this. So, you can do whatever you want to do on the front end — not go through the proper channels — and then, on the back end, there are zero consequences for it.”

Giants - ( New Window )

In comment 16288593 section125 said:

Quote:

Yes, McAdoo wanted Mahomes it was rumored. Mahomes went 10th, the Giants picked 23rd.....Not sure where your head is, but explain to me how they get from 23rd to 9th?

Is that a real question? Why don't you go look up where the Chiefs were picking in 2017 and then get back to us.

In comment 16288605 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16288574 djm said: Quote: In comment 16288542 ajr2456 said: Quote: In comment 16288537 djm said: Quote: I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this. I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies. Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair. Enjoy! Didn’t that come out last year? Nope. Link it. Where's is this huge story? I am not talking about bad GM hirings or bad HC hirings. I want personnel meddling. Facts. Not one article. EVER. The only thing we have seen is articles detailing Mara's regrets when players he loved were cut or traded. And I know people here are going to take this as me defending Mara. Yet I am the guy who put Mara on blast for firing Coughlin when he didn't have a worthy successor in mind. I will gladly crush Mara for his hirings. Mara isn't fucking around in player personnel. Every source known to man has corroborated this stance. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. IT's a pet peeve of mine to call out these takes. Someone has to. It was two years ago, not last year. And it was when Mara was preparing to promote Abrams and keep Judge, until the public outcry became too deafening to ignore. Linked below is the Duggan article from the Athletic, but the more damaging reports came from Tyler Dunne here and here. You might still have some sand in your ears from burying your head. Such is the plight of the Giants' heroic superfan. Link - ( New Window )

m

Read them already. I have a sub to the athletic. Not one line proves or states clearly that Mara is making the personnel decisions or constantly meddling.


Yet I see this from bleacher:

Quote:

Per ESPN New York's Anita Marks, the Giants tried to trade up to select Mahomes because head coach Ben McAdoo "loves" him and was "very upset" they weren't able to land him.

I don’t just make shit up. I do my homework. Maybe I’m wrong but all the evidence points me to NO.

Again, don’t tell me the instances where Mara hired the wrong guy. We know that already.

Don’t you have a sentence or grammatical error to expose?


Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16288614 djm said:

Quote:

In comment 16288605 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16288574 djm said: Quote: In comment 16288542 ajr2456 said: Quote: In comment 16288537 djm said: Quote: I will wait for the article to come out that exposes Mara as the clandestine meddling troll that he is. I would think the athletic or some other reputable source will eventually find the time to expose what would be one of the biggest NY sports stories in quite some time. We all know the media wants clicks and they live to expose shit like this. I'll wait. Until then, you folks can go ahead disparage every reputable source you see because that is far easier to do than acknowledging any facts that don't give you the warm and fuzzies. Bob Papa is a shill now I see. Who's not a shill? The person who writes what you want to believe? That's fair. Enjoy! Didn’t that come out last year? Nope. Link it. Where's is this huge story? I am not talking about bad GM hirings or bad HC hirings. I want personnel meddling. Facts. Not one article. EVER. The only thing we have seen is articles detailing Mara's regrets when players he loved were cut or traded. And I know people here are going to take this as me defending Mara. Yet I am the guy who put Mara on blast for firing Coughlin when he didn't have a worthy successor in mind. I will gladly crush Mara for his hirings. Mara isn't fucking around in player personnel. Every source known to man has corroborated this stance. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. IT's a pet peeve of mine to call out these takes. Someone has to. It was two years ago, not last year. And it was when Mara was preparing to promote Abrams and keep Judge, until the public outcry became too deafening to ignore. Linked below is the Duggan article from the Athletic, but the more damaging reports came from Tyler Dunne here and here. You might still have some sand in your ears from burying your head. Such is the plight of the Giants' heroic superfan. Link - ( New Window ) m Read them already. I have a sub to the athletic. Not one line proves or states clearly that Mara is making the personnel decisions or constantly meddling. Yet I see this from bleacher: Quote: Per ESPN New York's Anita Marks, the Giants tried to trade up to select Mahomes because head coach Ben McAdoo "loves" him and was "very upset" they weren't able to land him. I don’t just make shit up. I do my homework. Maybe I’m wrong but all the evidence points me to NO. Again, don’t tell me the instances where Mara hired the wrong guy. We know that already. Don’t you have a sentence or grammatical error to expose? Link - ( New Window )

McAdoo was Anita Marks’ source. He wanted to trade up, but was told no by the personnel dept.

he owes his very well compensated financial life to the Mara's. He may as well change his name to Baghdad Bob Papa. That's his level of credibility when it comes to anything related to the Giants. Pat Hanlon has trained him well.

In comment 16288578 jinkies said:

Quote:

In comment 16288562 djm said: Quote: when Dallas hits that big bad salary cap wall due to the Dak contract. Weren't they supposed to completely suck by now? Behold, Dallas is about to EXTEND Dak. The same Dak everyone agrees is probably closer to average than elite but the same Dak that helps Dallas curb stomp NYG every year and the same team that wins 10-12 games every year. One more time, teams are going to pay average PRO QBs because the alternative can be far far worse. GMS get fired. Head coaches get fired if teams fail to win 7-10 games and most of the time the disparity between pretty good QB and bad is the main reason why teams don't win. You don't have to agree with. Maybe you have your own system that the world needs to acknowledge but you are ignoring the cold hard truths of the NFL and how teams operate. Teams live in fear of the truly bad QB that has no business playing in the NFL. They would rather pay the 6 then lose with the 3. The Dak contract isn't a big problem because he plays at a high level. The last month he is a top-2 QB in the conference. You want to call him "not elite". Whatever. He produces. I don't mind paying big money to good players. When you pay big money to bad players, you get the 2023 Giants. It matters WHO you pay. There is a good chance Daniel Jones never throws another pass for the NY Giants. Look at his numbers this year, his rankings, and his overall production. When you pay $100M for that, it's hard to overcome.

Most of their fanbase wants DAK to be let go. He has not delivered the goods in 7 years plus on a team that has been loaded with talent since took over in 2016.

Papa is not objective.

Wake me up when the truth is unearthed. Every time someone posts a link or piece of info that says Mara is not impacting player personnel the writer or source is disparaged or literally mocked. Every time a piece of anecdotal shit is conjured up that says Mara is meddling it's validated.

Respectfully, I can't buy it. That's not me being a cheerleader but if you can't see that then we are wasting each other's time.

Just because the Giants are god awful doesn't prove a thing.

about just putting a team on the field that doesn't get smoked in its own division?

Jesus.

Don't want to ruin anyone's fun. I take it Schoen is safe from now on since Mara is making all the bad moves. Wonder why we didn't afford the last GM this same leeway.

that has been discussed through the past ten years on BBI.

Here's my opinion...

YES - the Mara's are guilty of being MILDLY meddlesome owners.

I do think that they are loyal to employees (yeah - that's everyone that is employed by the Giants) to a fault...yes.
I think they deem those that have "Blue running through their veins" and keep them longer than they should to a fault...yeah. Is it the worst quality to have as an ownership group - nah (see Daniel Snyder). BUT does it cost them - yes, we are experiencing what that does to a franchise right now.


Would I guess that that they are guilty of nepotism and using family to influence personnel decisions...yes. It's hard to believe that Schoen and Daboll are making decisions without ownership input given that multiple family members are (I'm guessing based on titles - I didn't see any job descriptions listed on Giants.com) SUPPOSED to be weighing in on football personnel matters.

It's not awesome business practices NOR is something that as a fan I love...HOWEVER, it's not uncommon practice in the business sector as a whole and I'm surprised at how many here really believe that in reality the Mara's wouldn't have some input on one of their larger investment.

In comment 16288640 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

about just putting a team on the field that doesn't get smoked in its own division? Jesus.

Hey no arguments from me. Again, this doesn't really prove anything other than Mara is hiring the wrong people. We know that to be a fact.

Maybe we should hire a HC with actual HC experience ONCE in a blue moon. Just a thought.

Mara would like to stick with Jones and is looking for any excuse to do so. He's paying this guy a lot of money, he's got the demeanor Mara likes, and moving on from him is admitting you made a dumb decision giving him a huge contract. So, if he thinks he can get away with sticking with him and not taking a qb, without too much fan blowback, he'll do it. That's why we're seeing these articles come out--to measure how fan's feel. There will be more and more of them until draft day. It's a bizarre way to run a franchise, but it's basically what they've always done. Hopefully fans are vocal about not wanting to stick with Jones and Mara takes notice.

there is risk there too... hiring a former HC who has already been fired. See Dan Reeves.

Because his agent was mean to Chris once seems like more than mild meddling to me. Especially for a team that has had an oline problem for a decade

In comment 16288658 LW_Giants said:

Quote:

Mara would like to stick with Jones and is looking for any excuse to do so. He's paying this guy a lot of money, he's got the demeanor Mara likes, and moving on from him is admitting you made a dumb decision giving him a huge contract. So, if he thinks he can get away with sticking with him and not taking a qb, without too much fan blowback, he'll do it. That's why we're seeing these articles come out--to measure how fan's feel. There will be more and more of them until draft day. It's a bizarre way to run a franchise, but it's basically what they've always done. Hopefully fans are vocal about not wanting to stick with Jones and Mara takes notice.

Yessir.

‘…he’s got the demeanor Mara likes’

Like, WTF are we doing here? Who fucking cares? Jones isn’t that good. Good Lord, if true, Mara is completely fucking out to lunch.

And I suspect LW Giants is right.

As GT says, when you’re here..you’re family.

In comment 16288695 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

‘…he’s got the demeanor Mara likes’ Like, WTF are we doing here? Who fucking cares? Jones isn’t that good. Good Lord, if true, Mara is completely fucking out to lunch. And I suspect LW Giants is right. As GT says, when you’re here..you’re family.

So, what changed? Kerry Collins got the Giants to a Super Bowl a few years before Eli was drafted. Collins got the Giants to the playoffs in 2002.

Has Mara got more soft over the years? Collins is better than Jones.

In comment 16288698 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 16288695 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: ‘…he’s got the demeanor Mara likes’ Like, WTF are we doing here? Who fucking cares? Jones isn’t that good. Good Lord, if true, Mara is completely fucking out to lunch. And I suspect LW Giants is right. As GT says, when you’re here..you’re family. So, what changed? Kerry Collins got the Giants to a Super Bowl a few years before Eli was drafted. Collins got the Giants to the playoffs in 2002. Has Mara got more soft over the years? Collins is better than Jones.

Different Mara.

I remember John Mara telling Mike Francesa that his dad needed to be convinced to draft Eli since Wellington was loyal to Collins.

If the Giants roll into training camp with Jones as the franchise QB, I’m out. This has been my favorite team for 40 years but, if they do this. I will no longer waste any time on a team this dumb and that subjects me to a walking black hole of QB play like Jones.

to keep Jones (Schoen did decline his option after all), you can’t argue that his “we did all we could to screw this kid up” would have zero influence. That said, as I’ve mentioned many times, I think Schoen was caught between a rock and a hard place after last season’s playoff run.

They declined his option because they were not sold on him. Maybe they thought they’d have a competitive, but ultimately losing season that would put them in range to draft Jones’s replacement. Daboll did a great job minimizing Daniel’s weaknesses while taking advantage of his one outstanding trait, his speed.

The playoff run left them out of range of taking a QB unless mortgaged multiple picks that were desperately needed. That is the proverbial rock/hard place. So Schoen constructed a deal that paid Jones like a top 10 QB but allowed him an out after 2 years. I don’t think Mara influenced those decisions at all, and I can’t find fingerprints on any other personnel decisions either. That said, we have no idea what is going on behind closed doors, but all I can think of is the anonymous Giants scout saying none of us on the outside had any idea of what Jerry Reese had to deal with on a daily basis. And he was referring to Chris Mara.

11 years and counting of mostly lousy football, 5 HC’s, and 3 GM’s. Either the Mara’s are REALLY bad at evaluating personnel, or this something rotten within. DG was flat out a bad hire, reports said that even he was surprised he got the job, but a lot of teams were in on Schoen. Maybe he won’t work out, but I don’t think he was a bad hire. If JonC is right, and Papa is putting out a smoke screen to presage toppling another administration, nothing changes until the Mara’s change.

The thought of running it back in ‘24 with Jones considering his play even before he got injured/injury history is so fucking asinine that it would actually be on brand for this last decade of sheer incompetence.

Hey, and when Jones blows in ‘24, let’s give him another shot in ‘25! He is such a nice and polite gentleman!

The hiring process that led to Gettleman was & remains an absolute fucking joke.

In comment 16288708 cosmicj said:

Quote:

If the Giants roll into training camp with Jones as the franchise QB, I’m out. This has been my favorite team for 40 years but, if they do this. I will no longer waste any time on a team this dumb and that subjects me to a walking black hole of QB play like Jones.

If I'm remembering correctly, every once in awhile someone on BBI would start a thread with Mara's email soliciting messages to him re: player decisions. As sad as it is that there's even a slight chance something like that would work (and I'm not convinced it did/does), perhaps we'll need that again when draft day gets close.

In comment 16288705 Sean said:

Quote:

I remember John Mara telling Mike Francesa that his dad needed to be convinced to draft Eli since Wellington was loyal to Collins.

Which is kind of ironic since there were reports that John would complain in the owner’s box on Sunday that they had to replace Eli, but by Monday morning wanted to rebuild around him.

In comment 16288719 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

The hiring process that led to Gettleman was & remains an absolute fucking joke.

So horrendous.

But in hindsight - there's a clear scenario that may have taken place behind closed doors that lead to the hire.

In comment 16288613 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 16288593 section125 said: Quote: Yes, McAdoo wanted Mahomes it was rumored. Mahomes went 10th, the Giants picked 23rd.....Not sure where your head is, but explain to me how they get from 23rd to 9th? Is that a real question? Why don't you go look up where the Chiefs were picking in 2017 and then get back to us.

Thanks. 27, 91 and #1 2018. Yeah, I could see Reese doing that.....

When people want to believe that either Mara is making all the decisions and Schoen is just a figurehead, or that Schoen doesn't even know or care what Mara might prefer.

The world is really simple when every situation is so binary that one of two things has to be absolutely true and physical evidence needs to exist to prove one and disprove the other.

Have some of you never worked with other humans in any capacity?

In comment 16288746 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

When people want to believe that either Mara is making all the decisions and Schoen is just a figurehead, or that Schoen doesn't even know or care what Mara might prefer. The world is really simple when every situation is so binary that one of two things has to be absolutely true and physical evidence needs to exist to prove one and disprove the other. Have some of you never worked with other humans in any capacity?

Literally no one is saying either of the things you are alluding to, but owners can be overly involved without “making all the decisions”.

In comment 16288658 LW_Giants said:

Quote:

Mara would like to stick with Jones and is looking for any excuse to do so. He's paying this guy a lot of money, he's got the demeanor Mara likes, and moving on from him is admitting you made a dumb decision giving him a huge contract. So, if he thinks he can get away with sticking with him and not taking a qb, without too much fan blowback, he'll do it. That's why we're seeing these articles come out--to measure how fan's feel. There will be more and more of them until draft day. It's a bizarre way to run a franchise, but it's basically what they've always done. Hopefully fans are vocal about not wanting to stick with Jones and Mara takes notice.

This is my read as well.

To say Mara doesn't have influence over big decisions is ludicrous. Mara 100% played a part in the decision and how they brought back Jones and Barkley.

But this is still on Schoen and Daboll. They screwed up big time that they will now have to pay for. And they need to be held accountable for the big mistake they made on Jones, and some of the smaller roster decisions this year. They don't deserve a free pass for 1 good year.

In comment 16288772 Section331 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288746 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: When people want to believe that either Mara is making all the decisions and Schoen is just a figurehead, or that Schoen doesn't even know or care what Mara might prefer. The world is really simple when every situation is so binary that one of two things has to be absolutely true and physical evidence needs to exist to prove one and disprove the other. Have some of you never worked with other humans in any capacity? Literally no one is saying either of the things you are alluding to, but owners can be overly involved without “making all the decisions”.

Whether BBI wants to believe it or not, most NFL owners have input on their team...scary to think about, I know.

In comment 16288775 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16288658 LW_Giants said: Quote: Mara would like to stick with Jones and is looking for any excuse to do so. He's paying this guy a lot of money, he's got the demeanor Mara likes, and moving on from him is admitting you made a dumb decision giving him a huge contract. So, if he thinks he can get away with sticking with him and not taking a qb, without too much fan blowback, he'll do it. That's why we're seeing these articles come out--to measure how fan's feel. There will be more and more of them until draft day. It's a bizarre way to run a franchise, but it's basically what they've always done. Hopefully fans are vocal about not wanting to stick with Jones and Mara takes notice. This is my read as well.

Of course he does.

There's nothing worse than having to fire good people. I've had to do it myself - it sucks.

When Mara said the team wasn't trading for Watson, I was very happy. The idea owners have no input is insane. They do and should.

I don't believe the Jones deal was done to satisfy Mara, I think they made a huge evaluation error and nothing more. People still defending the deal when the franchise tag was on the table are idiots.

Mara's biggest error was the process for hiring Gettleman. And then retaining him.

I don't know who is responsible for what, but the self-scouting in this organization has been a disaster for a decade, across multiple GMs and coaches. Why is that? What accountabilities are there in the organization when people get there forecasts wrong? Is there a tangible process for evaluations? That isn't suggesting errors necessarily lead to dismissals, but changes in processes, etc. This season we saw a ton of hype ahead of the Dallas game. And then we played six quarters of just atrocious football. An error that huge means something is terribly wrong.

The Giants strike me as an incredibly complacent organization. There seems to be some denial over how terrible this past decade has been--and frankly, how avoidable it was.

In comment 16288826 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

When Mara said the team wasn't trading for Watson, I was very happy. The idea owners have no input is insane. They do and should. I don't believe the Jones deal was done to satisfy Mara, I think they made a huge evaluation error and nothing more. People still defending the deal when the franchise tag was on the table are idiots. Mara's biggest error was the process for hiring Gettleman. And then retaining him. I don't know who is responsible for what, but the self-scouting in this organization has been a disaster for a decade, across multiple GMs and coaches. Why is that? What accountabilities are there in the organization when people get there forecasts wrong? Is there a tangible process for evaluations? That isn't suggesting errors necessarily lead to dismissals, but changes in processes, etc. This season we saw a ton of hype ahead of the Dallas game. And then we played six quarters of just atrocious football. An error that huge means something is terribly wrong. The Giants strike me as an incredibly complacent organization. There seems to be some denial over how terrible this past decade has been--and frankly, how avoidable it was.

This is a great post. I think you really nail it here.

In comment 16288737 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288613 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 16288593 section125 said: Quote: Yes, McAdoo wanted Mahomes it was rumored. Mahomes went 10th, the Giants picked 23rd.....Not sure where your head is, but explain to me how they get from 23rd to 9th? Is that a real question? Why don't you go look up where the Chiefs were picking in 2017 and then get back to us. Thanks. 27, 91 and #1 2018. Yeah, I could see Reese doing that.....

My point was just that it shouldn't be viewed as an impossibility that the Giants could have moved up for Mahomes, when the Chiefs did precisely that, from farther back. The Giants wouldn't even have had to get in front of Kansas City, theoretically. They could have just made the exact same offer for #10 overall, with slightly better picks.

I'm not saying it works out as well for Mahomes as it did for him to land in Kansas City, but it's silly to suggest that there wasn't a path available to drafting Mahomes back in 2017 if the Giants were so inclined.

but it was beautiful.

Mara hires GMs that will very likely tell him what he wants to hear. Gettleman was the perfect example.

Despite coming from outside, my fear is Schoen has turned out to be just that type of GM.

Thanks, Sean.

If I was running the organization, I'd have key people give me a ton of forecasts prior to each season: what is the expected record, offensive, and defensive output projections, projected statistics for key players, expected All-Pros, which players they expected to take big steps, etc.

Take Jones for example. I ranted against the contract all off-season because I said guys like that never ascend to the top ten after year four, that the way teams contend is through the air and Jones' skillset was limiting, etc., etc. Did the Giants actually disagree? Did they think Jones was going to ascend to a 30 TD/4000 yard guy. It's an entirely different discussion, in my view, if you got that projection wrong vs. thinking the 2022 Jones was worth that contract.

I'm a little worried Jones' injury allows the Giants to allow themselves to lie to themselves about how stupid the contract was.

If the belief was Jones could get there with the appropriate pieces, was that part of the projection wrong? Or did we really think a team with no elite unit could seriously contend? Drilling down on these analytical errors is how franchises get better, I am concerned the insular nature of the Giant organization (and the fact these mistakes are in the public eye) prevent the hard work necessary to improve processes.

In comment 16288858 bw in dc said:

Quote:

but it was beautiful. Mara hires GMs that will very likely tell him what he wants to hear. Gettleman was the perfect example. Despite coming from outside, my fear is Schoen has turned out to be just that type of GM.

If Schoen sucks, Mara is 0-for-2 on GM hires. (Reese was promotion and the only other reported candidates were Chris Mara, Kevin Abrams, Dave Gettleman, and Charley Casserly.)

What pitiful list, by the way.

If Daboll sucks, Mara is 0-for-4 on Head Coaches.

ol Joe than I did for DG.

Some of the old Jints Central were cut loose - ie Chris Petit...but many still remain.

He's also been able to bring on some of "his" guys to have a seat at the table - ie Brandon Brown

the field or on the sidelines. Never a good spot to be.

In comment 16288604 IchabodGiant said:

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that people need to pay close attention to what JonC posts. He knows what he's talking about.

People pick and choose who to listen to when it supports the argument they want. They do it with sy too. When Sy agrees, his words are proof. When Sy doesn't agree, 'scouts aren't perfect'

I don’t think there’s any self evaluation/taking a long look in the mirror.

In comment 16288778 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

To say Mara doesn't have influence over big decisions is ludicrous. Mara 100% played a part in the decision and how they brought back Jones and Barkley. But this is still on Schoen and Daboll. They screwed up big time that they will now have to pay for. And they need to be held accountable for the big mistake they made on Jones, and some of the smaller roster decisions this year. They don't deserve a free pass for 1 good year.

This is an interesting post.

Mara influences big decisions, and he played a big part in the decisions on both Jones and Barkley.

But the screw up is on Schoen and Daboll and somehow they are the accountable ones.

"Off with their heads! But, but you told me to sign them. Oh, I forgot...Off with my own head first"

In comment 16288894 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

I don’t think there’s any self evaluation/taking a long look in the mirror.

This is my concern. My guess is a guy like Coughlin was fairly ruthless in self-scouting (or at least tried to be), but I'm concerned that there's a bit of clumsiness since.

These guys aren't necessarily smart, lol. Jim Fassel--I think--had the quote about them being glorified PE teachers.

defending Chris Mara,and claiming that he was qualified to run an NFL Team based on his resume.A line that some people repeat on here.But one thing he failed to mention is if he could hold the same title in any other organization for this long without getting fired.

In comment 16288858 bw in dc said:

Quote:

but it was beautiful. Mara hires GMs that will very likely tell him what he wants to hear. Gettleman was the perfect example. Despite coming from outside, my fear is Schoen has turned out to be just that type of GM.

It's possible, but may be a little too early to tell. This offseason will be very telling to that end. If they don't take a QB with a top 5 pick, for example, it would say a lot to back that up.

If we end up drafting high & pass on a QB, we might as well find a new hobby.

In comment 16288922 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

If we end up drafting high & pass on a QB, we might as well find a new hobby.

Yup. I'm not interested in watching if they fuck this up. In my 40 years of watching this team, I have NEVER felt that before

In comment 16288775 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16288658 LW_Giants said: Quote: Mara would like to stick with Jones and is looking for any excuse to do so. He's paying this guy a lot of money, he's got the demeanor Mara likes, and moving on from him is admittqing you made a dumb decision giving him a huge contract. So, if he thinks he can get away with sticking with him and not taking a qb, without too much fan blowback, he'll do it. That's why we're seeing these articles come out--to measure how fan's feel. There will be more and more of them until draft day. It's a bizarre way to run a franchise, but it's basically what they've always done. Hopefully fans are vocal about not wanting to stick with Jones and Mara takes notice. This is my read as well.

There's something worse for Mara than some fan blowback.

If Mara has a top 2 pick and then decides to pass on a QB and run it back with Jones, he'll be a laughing stock in the national sports media. The derision will be merciless and he will confirm every attack Lombardi ever made on the Giants. I don't think Mara wants that kind of attention.

In comment 16288786 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 16288772 Section331 said: Quote: In comment 16288746 Mike from Ohio said: Quote: When people want to believe that either Mara is making all the decisions and Schoen is just a figurehead, or that Schoen doesn't even know or care what Mara might prefer. The world is really simple when every situation is so binary that one of two things has to be absolutely true and physical evidence needs to exist to prove one and disprove the other. Have some of you never worked with other humans in any capacity? Literally no one is saying either of the things you are alluding to, but owners can be overly involved without “making all the decisions”. Whether BBI wants to believe it or not, most NFL owners have input on their team...scary to think about, I know.

Of course they do. The difference is how much. Hiring the GM who agrees that the aging QB can make one more run is his right, but it doesn’t mean it’s right, and that he should be shielded from criticism for it. Overruling his GM on a HC hire is his right, but it also doesn’t make it the right decision.

Unless you think through 11 years, 3 GM’s, 5 HC’s, it’s all just bad luck. Someone is responsible, and if you want to give the Mara’s a(nother) pass, that is your right. It just doesn’t make it right.

In comment 16288899 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16288778 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: To say Mara doesn't have influence over big decisions is ludicrous. Mara 100% played a part in the decision and how they brought back Jones and Barkley. But this is still on Schoen and Daboll. They screwed up big time that they will now have to pay for. And they need to be held accountable for the big mistake they made on Jones, and some of the smaller roster decisions this year. They don't deserve a free pass for 1 good year. This is an interesting post. Mara influences big decisions, and he played a big part in the decisions on both Jones and Barkley. But the screw up is on Schoen and Daboll and somehow they are the accountable ones. "Off with their heads! But, but you told me to sign them. Oh, I forgot...Off with my own head first"

I said Mara influences, not that he fully decides.

And yes the screw up and accountability falls on Schoen and Daboll ( to a lesser extent).

Just because Mara influences doesn't mean Schoen couldn't push back or brought Jones back at a much lower risk. And theres no way Mara decided to draft Evan Neal or played a role in the roster screw ups ( not having a returtner, the dogshit o line backups etc).

There is nuance here and multiple things can be true. Mara has influence and Schoen screwed up.

In comment 16288906 ghost718 said:

Quote:

defending Chris Mara,and claiming that he was qualified to run an NFL Team based on his resume.A line that some people repeat on here.But one thing he failed to mention is if he could hold the same title in any other organization for this long without getting fired.

If that's true, it seems irresponsible to have not hired Chris as GM by now. Hell make it a Chris/Tim McDonnell tandem and show how much the family knows about building a football team.

mess. Like we suck, bad. Really, bad. The talent level on this team isn't up to snuff and it hasn't been for over a decade now and why this team gets a shit ton of injuries year in and year out now. Same thing happens to crappy high school teams that are the walking wounded by the time the year is over.

I'm all for drafting a new QB, but my expectations are way low, regardless of who they decide to roll out there. If it's Caleb Williams I think that is an experimetn doomed to literally fail when you see what he needs to work on. It's as much about fit and situation as much as it is talent and he needs to go somewhere with decent OL play or he's never goign to develope based on what he needs to work on.

When you realize that the only reason we were good was because the system the NFL essentially forced onto us for being so dysfunctional, and that system has been dismantled, and now we have to trust the Maras to get out of this....yeah.

that are written way too definitively about what Mara says and feels. The reality is nobody here (outside of maybe a an asshat or two) has any fucking clue what Mara is saying in the building behind closed doors. That goes for either Mara and also goes for Tisch.

For me, it is still too early to make any determination on Schoen in terms of his skills as a GM or his relationship with Mara in making those decisions. He still seems to have a plan and I'd like to see another offseason and draft before making a real judgement on him. He inherited a roster devoid of talent at most positions, no depth, yet absolutely no wiggle room against the cap. That is a very dangerous combination and really shouldn't happen. That is where Gettleman was a huge problem.

It is easy to point to a couple of draft picks that worked out and say he wasn't all bad. That isn't accurate. First of all, I think we are seeing it was VERY premature to take that stance on Jones. But, he had really no hits in later rounds and made some terrible decisions in FA and extending guys. He grossly overpaid for the likes of Solder and Leonard Williams. For Williams he traded away a valuable 3rd round pick and paid way too much for a good, not great player. These types of moves hamstrung the team.

Last year really wasn't supposed to be a playoff team. Schoen was rebuilding the roster and made the conscious decision to take the lumps in the cap with an eye toward next year. The team and coaching staff overperformed, which may have affected their thinking this year. But, the bottom line is the roster was still in the improving phase. Personally, I am perplexed how we are this bad this year. I see us as more talented and deeper than last year. Given our schedule, I didn't necessarily expect it to manifest in a better record. But, I didn't expect us to be historically bad either.

Right now, I am writing this year off as an anomaly, and want to see what Schoen and Daboll do next year. I truly believe that with the addition of even 1 really good OL and a franchise QB, the rest of the normal off season moves will position us for a major improvement. But, if we bypass the QBs available this draft to give Jones a pass because of both injuries and OL play, we will set this franchise back years. I think, at this point, even with a perfect OL we can say Jones' ceiling is not that of an elite QB. There are more than a couple of QBs this draft who are projecting to be that kind of player. So, I don't need another show me year for Jones. I want a franchise QB on the roster.

That said, if Jones is healthy, he still may be the starter with knowledge in the back everyone's mind that the franchise QB is likely QB2. At the same time, it is still very likely Jones isn't even ready to start the season, or if he does he isn't really 100%, meaning he can't or won't fully utilize his biggest asset, which is running the ball. That will easily pave the way for the next QB. But, we have to make that pick first.

And, we have to be very careful in choosing the right FA OL and evaluating the right OL on the current roster. I think we are already set at LT and OC. Neal is still likely to be the RT. A VERY good OL at either OG or RT positions can anchor this line, making it easier to fill the remaining 1 or 2 spots. It is not realistic to think we will have an all pro talent at all 5 OL positions. But, with 1 excellent and 1 good and improving player already in place, the right 1 or 2 moves can have a huge impact.

In comment 16288942 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

In comment 16288899 ThomasG said: Quote: In comment 16288778 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: To say Mara doesn't have influence over big decisions is ludicrous. Mara 100% played a part in the decision and how they brought back Jones and Barkley. But this is still on Schoen and Daboll. They screwed up big time that they will now have to pay for. And they need to be held accountable for the big mistake they made on Jones, and some of the smaller roster decisions this year. They don't deserve a free pass for 1 good year. This is an interesting post. Mara influences big decisions, and he played a big part in the decisions on both Jones and Barkley. But the screw up is on Schoen and Daboll and somehow they are the accountable ones. "Off with their heads! But, but you told me to sign them. Oh, I forgot...Off with my own head first" I said Mara influences, not that he fully decides. And yes the screw up and accountability falls on Schoen and Daboll ( to a lesser extent). Just because Mara influences doesn't mean Schoen couldn't push back or brought Jones back at a much lower risk. And theres no way Mara decided to draft Evan Neal or played a role in the roster screw ups ( not having a returtner, the dogshit o line backups etc). There is nuance here and multiple things can be true. Mara has influence and Schoen screwed up.

You're playing both sides of the fence, and doing it poorly.

If Schoen wanted Jones and he gave him that deal, then Mara's influence did not matter.

If Schoen didn't want Jones, but was forced to give him that deal because of Mara's influence, then how is Schoen accountable?

Stay on the Jones decision, not anything else like punt returner as you're mixing messages. And let me know.

I get the fans being miserable and looking to vilify the owner. Mara is the owner. The buck stops there. HE's a big boy who doesn't have to sit in traffic and worry about bills and he's made this bed so he can lie in it. I have long questioned his big decision making "skills."

I WANT Mara to be exposed if he's pulling too many strings. I have no dog in this race. Prove it. IN a town built on this so called big bad media rep, someone fucking prove it. Not once has it been proven beyond some whispers or fence sitting innuendo. IF Mara is impacting player personnel on a level that fans don't know about it should be exposed and would be by now. Dolan farts at a seat paying Knicks fan and it's plastered all over the news. Where is the Mara stuff.

I'll wait for the facts. Until then I live in a world that asks, begs and pleads with Schoen, Daboll and the rest to draft impact players.

In comment 16288858 bw in dc said:

Quote:

but it was beautiful. Mara hires GMs that will very likely tell him what he wants to hear. Gettleman was the perfect example. Despite coming from outside, my fear is Schoen has turned out to be just that type of GM.

Schoen was a rookie GM. He'll make some mistakes.

He'll also have to take his boss's wishes into serious consideration.

In comment 16288524 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

In comment 16288515 BigBlueShock said: Quote: In comment 16288446 UberAlias said: Quote: Being skeptical is one thing, but some of you are steadfast convinced of yourselves. It's like, we need to go back and remind people not to believe everything they read online. Just too funny. Someone who is actually in position to know makes a comment --which by the way by no means paints Mara in a great light (his comments about Mara fondness of Jones for having mannerisms similar to Eli is so obviously his opinion and flat out not a company narrative)-- and people immediately jump all over it including critiquing his tech terminology to discredit it (LOL), because it doesn't jive with what they believe. Wake up call people --you don't know shit, haha. That wasn’t Papa that said that about Maras mannerisms similar to Eli. It was some cat named AngryKnicksfan. Papa responded to it by basically saying it’s absurd and the dude is getting his info from “chat rooms”. Ugh. Jones’ mannerisms similar to Eli…

Ok, got it, thanks. Makes sense.

and some of the other dismal seasons we've had over the last decade is that we do have some young talent. In the past, we had mostly PS level players at all the backup spots and at some of the starting spots, to go along with some grossly overpaid players. We were in terrible positions from one year to the next. This year I do believe we have some nice, young talent we can continue building with and a lot of them already have that unexpected post season experience from last year to build on. Prior to this season, how many players did we have on any of the last few years' rosters with any playoff experience? Not many.

Don't get me wrong. This roster still needs a ton of work. But, I truly believe this year is an anomaly that just spiraled out of control quickly. But, I like the idea of continuing to build with Hyatt, Robinson, Thomas, JMS, Bellinger, even Neal on O. I like Dexter, Riley, Okereke, KT, Banks, Hawkins, Flott, McFadden (as a situational player) and intrigues to see Owens in camp next year at S and think Pinnock and Belton can be decent with a good D around them.

With an improved OL, I think Jones can be serviceable next year and we should have a franchise QB in the wings to move in behind a better OL at some point next year or to begin 2025. There are still plenty of holes, but there are some other decent players not mentioned. I do expect this team to rebound and be a playoff team next year.

What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season.

That is a lot of money to throw away.

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said:

Quote:

What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away.

Yes it is, but they don't have a choice. It is a sunk cost. Becaus2e of the balloon salary for next year, he is on the team barring being physically unable to play. I also think that means he starts if he is deemed 100% to open the season. But, assuming they take a QB, the only way he is on the team in 2025 is if he has a historically amazing season, which is so unlikely I wouldn't consider it a possibility.

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said:

Quote:

What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away.

The injury is going to allow them to rationalize it away. It was one of the worst dollars-to-TD contracts ever allocated to a QB (on both a historical and prospective basis at the time of signing).

In comment 16289072 Matt M. said:

Quote:

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said: Quote: What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away. Yes it is, but they don't have a choice. It is a sunk cost. Becaus2e of the balloon salary for next year, he is on the team barring being physically unable to play. I also think that means he starts if he is deemed 100% to open the season. But, assuming they take a QB, the only way he is on the team in 2025 is if he has a historically amazing season, which is so unlikely I wouldn't consider it a possibility.

My point is I wouldn't assume they take a QB. I think there's a good chance they don't.

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said:

Quote:

What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away.

And if you mention it somebody tells you it's not a lot of money. Someone else says it's a mid-range contract, even though it ranks near top-10 all-time. Someone else says, that's what a quarterback costs. Someone else says they're tired of hearing about it. Get used to it I say. It will be the worst production for a guaranteed contract of that size in history. Look at those abysmal numbers.

And Spotrac has the guaranteed portion as $92M.

1. Hiring McAdoo was easy since he could keep half of Coughlin's staff and there would be offensive continuity.

2. Hiring Dave Gettleman was easy with all of his previous NYG ties.

3. Drafting Saquon Barkley was easy, they could put together one last run with Eli and the fans were mostly onboard.

4. Hiring Pat Shurmur was easy. He was the hot offensive mind during that
cycle.

5. Drafting Daniel Jones was easy despite the fan backlash since he was coached by Cutcliffe. They knew him well and Gettleman fell in love based on a few drives at the Senior Bowl.

6. To a lesser extent the Joe Schoen hire was easy since he came with Parcells approval and worked under Beane who worked under Gettleman.

7. Both Joe Judge and Brian Daboll hires came from Bill Belichick.

8. Resigning Daniel Jones and bypassing the franchise tag was easy coming off the playoff win. Instead of looking at the roster objectively, everyone bought in and Mara declared the Giants "back".

The hardest, uncomfortable decision the Giants made was benching Eli Manning. And they didn't have the stomach for it and backed off.

I think the next easy decision will be Drake Maye. And fortunately, that is probably the best decision assuming the Giants pick #2. Running it back with Jones would not be easy and Mara will probably face national mortification to levels he's never experienced. So, I expect it will be Maye.

In comment 16289077 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16289072 Matt M. said: Quote: In comment 16289069 Go Terps said: Quote: What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away. Yes it is, but they don't have a choice. It is a sunk cost. Becaus2e of the balloon salary for next year, he is on the team barring being physically unable to play. I also think that means he starts if he is deemed 100% to open the season. But, assuming they take a QB, the only way he is on the team in 2025 is if he has a historically amazing season, which is so unlikely I wouldn't consider it a possibility. My point is I wouldn't assume they take a QB. I think there's a good chance they don't.

I look at tit as the opposite. The 2 injuries make it easier to rationalize taking a QB. Then it isn't simply giving up on Jones. It is protecting themselves.

If ever there was a draft to take a QB, this is it. unlike 2018, where there were also a number of highly touted QBs, I think there are at least 4 or 5 who have a realistic shot to be special players at the position. In 2018 there wasn't a single guy I really wanted, each with his own reasons. The only guy that intrigued me was Jackson, and more because they could have traded down to get him and ended up with more picks. This year is different. Regardless of where they end up picking, they should have a serious potential franchise guy.

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said:

Quote:

What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away.

Smart organizations catch and admit their mistakes early, and make the necessary adjustments.

We're about to test that with this Jones error.

In comment 16289106 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16289069 Go Terps said: Quote: What's being proposed by most is that he gets that money for the 6 starts he's made this season. That is a lot of money to throw away. Smart organizations catch and admit their mistakes early, and make the necessary adjustments. We're about to test that with this Jones error.

Agreed. Next year is the sunk cost. But, they don't have to accept that as defaulting him as the QB of the short or long term. Take the QB and move on. He is making so much, though, that an extension to further amortize guaranteed money won't work because he would still be WAY too expensive as a backup.

It doesn't matter if he goes somewhere else with a decent team and has a nice string of seasons. I don't see any scenario in which he ever lives up to the deal they gave him. So, I don't care what he does after next year.

Put it this way, on the whole, his tenure here has been so bad, that even if the QB they take (knock on wood) doesn't pan out, they still aren't worse off because after next season, that QB is still on a rookie deal.

In comment 16289096 Sean said:

Quote:

I think the next easy decision will be Drake Maye. And fortunately, that is probably the best decision assuming the Giants pick #2. Running it back with Jones would not be easy and Mara will probably face national mortification to levels he's never experienced. So, I expect it will be Maye.

On the other side of that coin, however, is the possibility that the Giants finish with the #3 pick, and make the "easy" move of drafting Harrison and waiting on a QB. If reports are accurate that they aren't fully ready to give up on Jones yet, I could see them privately rejoicing over having the decision on Williams/Maye taken out of their hands.

To play off ‘Animal House’…’You fucked up! You trusted Jones long term.’

Acknowledge it & rectify your error and go get a top QB.

can question Giants if they take a QB in the draft.

Disappointed though because there are so many other needs. Like Shawn Ohara said - they have to resolve that OLine. Have to get people who can block.

Referring to the last game - "That's not NFL football!"

In comment 16289123 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 16289096 Sean said: Quote: I think the next easy decision will be Drake Maye. And fortunately, that is probably the best decision assuming the Giants pick #2. Running it back with Jones would not be easy and Mara will probably face national mortification to levels he's never experienced. So, I expect it will be Maye. On the other side of that coin, however, is the possibility that the Giants finish with the #3 pick, and make the "easy" move of drafting Harrison and waiting on a QB. If reports are accurate that they aren't fully ready to give up on Jones yet, I could see them privately rejoicing over having the decision on Williams/Maye taken out of their hands.

If they miss out on Williams/Maye, there is still Daniels and McCarthy. Harrison does nothing for them with no QB to throw to him.

Quote:

Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”.

If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16289123 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 16289096 Sean said: Quote: I think the next easy decision will be Drake Maye. And fortunately, that is probably the best decision assuming the Giants pick #2. Running it back with Jones would not be easy and Mara will probably face national mortification to levels he's never experienced. So, I expect it will be Maye. On the other side of that coin, however, is the possibility that the Giants finish with the #3 pick, and make the "easy" move of drafting Harrison and waiting on a QB. If reports are accurate that they aren't fully ready to give up on Jones yet, I could see them privately rejoicing over having the decision on Williams/Maye taken out of their hands.

It is a big concern, imv. These trial balloons are clearly designed to test the fan tolerance for sticking with Jones. If they miss out on potential top targets and went QB with one of their #2 picks, I think many would sign up for it.

In comment 16288452 ryanmkeane said:

Quote:

Schoen and Daboll would have been laughed out of the building by every fan of the Giants if they chose to move on from Jones after the run last year and started the season the way it has gone. Maybe some fans say hey, I still trust them. But they had their best season since the SB run and looked to be improving in every area including QB. If Schoen says hey you gotta trust me on this and then the Giants are the worst team in football, it is likely both him and Daboll are fired. So, again, I know it sucks because we are 2-8, but they made the best decision they could in order to protect the long term in case Jones didn't work out. Very easy for anyone to say "well they should have just moved on because we are 2-8." That's called the benefit of hindsight that nobody in the history of earth has. In the end, it will likely be a new QB tied to them which everyone seems to want anyway. But you can't fault Schoen for giving Jones what amounts to a 2 year contract. I'm sorry but if you think that, you just aren't a realistic person.

You're still here lecturing this board? And now on the topic of realism? The ultimate shill delusional optimist in Giant fandumb history has decided it is ok now to acknowledge that the team is a steaming pile of cowdung. Especially when it was just last week you were flitting about here like "anti-chicken little" saying the sky's not falling and the "realists" on this board, aka the smart football guys, were going to be so embarrassed as to "run and hide away with shame" within a matter of weeks.

Newsflash slick. It ain't hindsight. It's been known to anyone with a brain for years. And any way you slice it, whether Mara gave the direct order or is a passive aggressive master, he and Schoen are both fucking morons for caving in to DJ and his ransom like contract demands. It is unequivocally the dumbest decision in this team's history. And the DJ Era, your beloved DJ Era, will forever be known in posterity as the absolute nadir of this franchise, and will now be an anchor that impedes the positive progress this team makes for years to come.

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window )

They run the team like a fan would, it would drive me insane if I let it.

That's a good point. That would allow the Giants to draft a day 2 QB while sticking with Jones. This is my biggest fear. They can sell the fanbase that they drafted QB, but Jones is still the clear choice for the foreseeable future.

I think that's a legitimate concern. If it's Williams, Maye or Daniels - Jones is clearly not the long term QB.

I would look for a trading partner knowing you would still have to pick up most of the costs. Granted, I know it's probably a dead market for Team Jones, but at least try.

I don't like the idea of having a lottery pick QB sitting. Stroud, Young, and Richardson played right away. Get into the deep end of the pool.

And who the hell needs the stench of Jones lingering. Move on...

Yet, I fear the Jones Experiment is going get audition #6 come next fall...

In comment 16289136 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said: Quote: Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window ) They run the team like a fan would, it would drive me insane if I let it.

When I step back and think about it I find it hard to believe how poorly run they are. It is their good fortune that they exist in this artificial universe with only 31 competitors, many of whom are themselves incompetent.

What did Bill Walsh say? "We are only competing against 8 teams." That's still true today.

I don’t mean to sound like a dick or an insensitive prick, but Jones’ ACL injury might just force our hand when it comes to drafting a QB high because it’s not even clear he’d be ready to go Week 1.

In comment 16289165 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

I don’t mean to sound like a dick or an insensitive prick, but Jones’ ACL injury might just force our hand when it comes to drafting a QB high because it’s not even clear he’d be ready to go Week 1.

They’ll start Tyrod and start the RT from Penn State with Neal at RG and think they’ll be ok until Jones comes back…

What a joke.

In comment 16289169 The_Boss said:

Quote:

In comment 16289165 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: I don’t mean to sound like a dick or an insensitive prick, but Jones’ ACL injury might just force our hand when it comes to drafting a QB high because it’s not even clear he’d be ready to go Week 1. They’ll start Tyrod and start the RT from Penn State with Neal at RG and think they’ll be ok until Jones comes back… What a joke.

You just made me throw up in my mouth.

Sadly, I could see that. Maybe by 2045 the Jones experiment will end…

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window )

Thus really suggests to me Papa reads BBI. Where else was rolling with Tyrod in 2023 discussed?

And there was this quote from a team owner looking in awed amazement at US sports leagues. He was amazed at the combination of salary caps and the lack of any relegation.

Relegation holds the owners feet to the fire. They can see their investment shrink before their eyes with a bad season. Meanwhile, in socialized-for-the-rich US sports, incompetents like the Maras face no relegation risk and can run the team like idiots for decades. Instead of: the New York Giants take the field against the Bridgeport Rambling Hornets in the Division III opener.

.

rules in the soccer.

It would certainly change the complexation of American football should there be another league to relegate teams to.

It could also serve as a "minor leagues" for the NFL.

Would be very different.

In comment 16289219 cosmicj said:

Quote:

And there was this quote from a team owner looking in awed amazement at US sports leagues. He was amazed at the combination of salary caps and the lack of any relegation. Relegation holds the owners feet to the fire. They can see their investment shrink before their eyes with a bad season. Meanwhile, in socialized-for-the-rich US sports, incompetents like the Maras face no relegation risk and can run the team like idiots for decades. Instead of: the New York Giants take the field against the Bridgeport Rambling Hornets in the Division III opener.

In principle, I totally agree.

But the NFL, when stripped to its core, is really just another television show. Football entertainment structured to limit the risk for the socialist owners with these foolproof astronomical network deals shared equally with all the owners. As long as the product keeps pumping out the ratings, the value of the franchises continues to rise, win or lose on the field.

Added benefits - the losing teams will get the benefit of higher draft picks (new actors); and the salary cap (agreement with their workers union) fixes their direct costs to essentially guarantee positive net income year after year after year.

It's a great, great business model if you can get in on the action...

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window )

So you're saying that there were fans calling for Tyrod Taylor to start the next season after that stretch of games before the elimination game, which is what he said? You are actually contending that? Maybe you were, but of course no-one will ever know since you ran into hiding. But nobody else was calling for Tyrod Taylor at that point.

In comment 16289210 cosmicj said:

Quote:

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said: Quote: Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window ) Thus really suggests to me Papa reads BBI. Where else was rolling with Tyrod in 2023 discussed?

Couple non Giants beats, one being Emory Hunt, was cycling through and talked about how well Tyrod looked while motioning toward Jones in struggling in a portion of camp.

This conveniently ignored how they practiced certain plays and formations to make it challenging, ie 3rd and 10s against a blitz.

in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now.

He practically spat the word 'fan'. You can hear the disdain in the typing.

In comment 16289251 JonC said:

Quote:

in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now.

This is a huge indictment on Schoen for thinking Jones actually had a robust market for his services.

I said it in March, and I still stick by it - there is NFW another team was rewarding Jones with the deal he received based on one year of good play.

In comment 16288349 k2tampa said:

Quote:

In comment 16288308 NorcalNYG said: Quote: In comment 16288287 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: BBI doesn't have "chats." We have threads. Focus on the important things, Bob. Lol its funny Bob papa thinks beat writers would hear about any of these conversations too, beyond funny it's arrogant thinking the almighty beat writers have any inside scoops of upper management conversations. It's a discussion between the owner and upper brass, none of them are going to leak a god dam word about it. Yet every year before the draft poster after poster here bitches about the front office leaking info about the Giants plans. You don't think there are people in the front office who would share info about owners limiting the GM's effectiveness? And if they are not leaking to help their boss, they are leaking because they want people to think they are in the know. You don't understand human nature. This isn't the NSA or the CIA, which have had leaks. It's a football team.

No draft leaks have occurred under Schoen yet. And everyone in the building knows guys they like in the draft. This is a conversation between Schoen and Mara only. It's completely different and there is no comparison.

In comment 16289143 bw in dc said:

Quote:

I would look for a trading partner knowing you would still have to pick up most of the costs. Granted, I know it's probably a dead market for Team Jones, but at least try. I don't like the idea of having a lottery pick QB sitting. Stroud, Young, and Richardson played right away. Get into the deep end of the pool. And who the hell needs the stench of Jones lingering. Move on... Yet, I fear the Jones Experiment is going get audition #6 come next fall...

I do get your point and don't disagree. I just don't think they find a partner, even if we eat the majority of the cost. Who, in their right mind, is in need of a QB and thinks to trade anything for Jones, coming off a 2nd neck injury and an ACL tear? He wasn't worth a ton before getting hurt. Now?

I guess there's a good chance he isn't ready to start the season anyway, which opens the door for the rookie.

I am only opposed to starting the rookie if the OL still sucks. It ruins young QBs. If the OL is just decent, I think we have enough weapons and will add more to have success.

In comment 16289259 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

He practically spat the word 'fan'. You can hear the disdain in the typing.

Papa can come off as a world class prick at times.

tells you which segments of the fan base they're trying to message.

In comment 16289245 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16289219 cosmicj said: Quote: And there was this quote from a team owner looking in awed amazement at US sports leagues. He was amazed at the combination of salary caps and the lack of any relegation. Relegation holds the owners feet to the fire. They can see their investment shrink before their eyes with a bad season. Meanwhile, in socialized-for-the-rich US sports, incompetents like the Maras face no relegation risk and can run the team like idiots for decades. Instead of: the New York Giants take the field against the Bridgeport Rambling Hornets in the Division III opener. In principle, I totally agree. But the NFL, when stripped to its core, is really just another television show. Football entertainment structured to limit the risk for the socialist owners with these foolproof astronomical network deals shared equally with all the owners. As long as the product keeps pumping out the ratings, the value of the franchises continues to rise, win or lose on the field. Added benefits - the losing teams will get the benefit of higher draft picks (new actors); and the salary cap (agreement with their workers union) fixes their direct costs to essentially guarantee positive net income year after year after year. It's a great, great business model if you can get in on the action...

Sharing a pool of billions between 32 teams is not socialism. It's oligarchy.

In comment 16289269 JonC said:

Quote:

tells you which segments of the fan base they're trying to message.

I wonder how much of this is just Hanlon being Hanlon.

Why would any expect him to be anything *but* a defender of the organization? I'm not criticizing him for it, but I do find it rather amusing that anyone would take his angry defense of the franchise at face value.

In comment 16289280 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16289269 JonC said: Quote: tells you which segments of the fan base they're trying to message. I wonder how much of this is just Hanlon being Hanlon.

lol, certainly would expect he's behind it, at the behest of Mara. It's become their every two years playbook.

In comment 16289251 JonC said:

Quote:

in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now.

This^. The Giants held all the cards and they caved. They had minimal if any risk at letting him hit the open market.

Put it another way, if he was playing on the tag right now, would the Giants even resign him this offseason?

And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific.

Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon.

Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory.

In comment 16289292 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Put it another way, if he was playing on the tag right now, would the Giants even resign him this offseason?

Smart teams - NFW.

But, here at 1925 Giants Way...

Quote:

“We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here,” Mara said. “We keep changing coaches, keep changing offensive coordinators, keep changing offensive line coaches. I take a lot of responsibility for that."

Amended for Jones's 2023 season...

Quote:

“We’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up since he’s been here,” Mara said. “We keep changing coaches, keep changing offensive coordinators, keep changing offensive line coaches. I take a lot of responsibility for that. And this past year he was riddled with his own injuries and many key players on offense getting injured"

In comment 16289246 Chris in Philly said:

Quote:

In comment 16289132 Go Terps said: Quote: Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window ) So you're saying that there were fans calling for Tyrod Taylor to start the next season after that stretch of games before the elimination game, which is what he said? You are actually contending that? Maybe you were, but of course no-one will ever know since you ran into hiding. But nobody else was calling for Tyrod Taylor at that point.

If you want an example of people calling for the Giants to go with Tyrod Taylor as the starter in 2023, I provided it (the Athletic Football podcast) in the linked thread below on 10/29/22. You'll also see there why I left.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16289280 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

I wonder how much of this is just Hanlon being Hanlon.

Pat Hanlon's career, while not football-related, is a rather telling example of how loyalty and being considered a part of the family trumps competence for the Giants.

In comment 16289251 JonC said:

Quote:

in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now.

^This. Schoen didn't want to use the FT on Jones because it would have cost $32.5M, which would have limited what he could do in FA. I think he was concerned about that because he basically had no FA money his first year. But that should have been irrelevant, or at best secondary. The primary concern should have been not to resign Jones to a ridiculous contract. Schoen basically replaced the Solder and Golladay contracts with a similar one for Jones.

Schoen and the Giants also broadcast they wanted to resign Jones and Barkley, which gave Jones and his agents a big advantage during negotiations. I also doubt that Barkley would have gotten a lot more in FA from another team than the final offer from the Giants. But if he did, then you let him go.

In comment 16289310 ThomasG said:

Quote:

And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific. Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon. Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory.

They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake.

In comment 16289292 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

In comment 16289251 JonC said: Quote: in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now. This^. The Giants held all the cards and they caved. They had minimal if any risk at letting him hit the open market. Put it another way, if he was playing on the tag right now, would the Giants even resign him this offseason?

Exactly. I was not a fan of re-signing him for most of the season because of the market and that is when people thought it was $25-35M. After the Minny game, I was resigned to the fact that he would be back, but I was happy enough with the tag for him. Do it again before I pay you like a top QB. The extension was a ridiculous cave in.

I don't think there is any chance he would be re-signed this off season if he was playing the year on the tag. I thought they were 100% correct to decline the 5th year option. They just got the next contract wrong.

To me, the more interesting question in retrospect is whether they would be better long term if they tagged Jones and worked out a reasonable 2-3 year deal for Barkley.

No chance in hell. I refuse to even consider it.

In comment 16289267 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

In comment 16289259 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: He practically spat the word 'fan'. You can hear the disdain in the typing. Papa can come off as a world class prick at times.

And his repeated use of the term "Chat Room" is a direct shot.

Giants are taking a QB no later than the second round.

Jones's injuries now moot any discussion about whether he or our porous OL was more responsible for our offensive woes. He's had a concussion, two neck injuries, and a torn ACL. His contract means he's here for 2024, but will be gone after that season, albeit with a $22M cap hit, the largest in franchise history.

In comment 16289332 NorcalNYG said:

Quote:

No chance in hell. I refuse to even consider it.

I agree. I think there is always fear with how the past decade has gone. It reminds me of that doubt that Abrams was going to get the GM role at the end of 2021. I recall Paul Schwartz writing an article about why Abrams would be qualified. This feels very similar, but I fully expect QB to be drafted in the first round.

In comment 16289314 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 16289246 Chris in Philly said: Quote: In comment 16289132 Go Terps said: Quote: Quote: Bob Papa @BobPapa_NFL There is not an HONEST Giants fan alive after X-Mass Eve performance(loss) at Min, clinching win vs Indy and playoff win at Min & BEFORE playoff loss at Phi that said, “we should go w/ Tyrod next season”. If you want a window into the Giants' thinking, here it is. Horrifying. Link - ( New Window ) So you're saying that there were fans calling for Tyrod Taylor to start the next season after that stretch of games before the elimination game, which is what he said? You are actually contending that? Maybe you were, but of course no-one will ever know since you ran into hiding. But nobody else was calling for Tyrod Taylor at that point. If you want an example of people calling for the Giants to go with Tyrod Taylor as the starter in 2023, I provided it (the Athletic Football podcast) in the linked thread below on 10/29/22. You'll also see there why I left. Link - ( New Window )

That thread is not in the window of time that Papa specified. You are disagreeing just to disagree...

If that's the specification, then I'd have to ask the relevance of the time period Papa chose. Why was the week after the Vikings win the best time to make a decision on Jones?

In comment 16289323 AcidTest said:

Quote:

In comment 16289251 JonC said: Quote: in '23, the issue was the contract extension given to him. From a football perspective, the sample size of Jones playing well was very small compared to the rest. They should've FT'd him then, and it's even more clear now. ^This. Schoen didn't want to use the FT on Jones because it would have cost $32.5M, which would have limited what he could do in FA. I think he was concerned about that because he basically had no FA money his first year. But that should have been irrelevant, or at best secondary. The primary concern should have been not to resign Jones to a ridiculous contract. Schoen basically replaced the Solder and Golladay contracts with a similar one for Jones. Schoen and the Giants also broadcast they wanted to resign Jones and Barkley, which gave Jones and his agents a big advantage during negotiations. I also doubt that Barkley would have gotten a lot more in FA from another team than the final offer from the Giants. But if he did, then you let him go.

AT, I agree with everything you post, which would lead me to another question for Schoen/Daboll--why did they value the cap room in 2023 so highly? My answer is it's because they wildly overrated 2022 and thought they could contend. Which, of course, was so obviously a mistake.

The self-scouting has to get better. This team makes decisions like everything has a 50-50 chance of working out and then it's just bad luck when things go wrong. Not competing in 2018, not competing this year. They were pretty obviously not contenders in my eyes. I, of course, didn't expect this, but the odds this team was a contender in 2023 at the start of the year were insanely low. Vegas odds suggested this too.

Even at 6-1 it was evident (at least to people who weren't shills) that Jones wasn't the reason they were winning and wasn't worth paying.

And for what it's worth, the amount the Athletic guys speculated Jones would ask was $20M per year.

Giving Jones that contract was a fucking joke. Same old clown show.

In comment 16289342 Go Terps said:

Quote:

If that's the specification, then I'd have to ask the relevance of the time period Papa chose. Why was the week after the Vikings win the best time to make a decision on Jones?

Im not saying it was the best time. All I am saying is that what he said was no fans were calling for Tyrod Taylor to be the starter during that period. It was a simple statement. You took issue with it (of course), but you didn't disprove his statement.

I want a new QB at the top of this draft. I am content with that and am not interested in arguing the same points with the same people for months. I also don't see anything in that link about why you left. I don't even see you in that linked thread. But whatever. Your disappearing act was weak.

lol, I kinda spelled out how the Giants would need to deploy the offense before last season began. To their credit, they did it but the NFL's defenses caught on in time for the second half of the season. Contain Jones' legs, keep him in the pocket, force him to beat you with the vertical pass and you will eat him alive.

but hopefully he has come back to the 'chat rooms' to see the feedback on it. The people who already believe Mara doesn't meddle still believe Mara doesn't meddle. Everyone else views Papa as a thin-skinned shill for management.

I like listening to Papa call the games, but he was really short-sighted in believing someone who works for the Giants can put to rest any idea that the Giants front office has any problems based on a social media post.

Not sure why the requirement for Giants media people starts and ends with "grumpy old man who looks down on the fans and media."

Maybe let Schmelk handle this stuff and let Hanlon and Papa go yell at clouds.

In comment 16289317 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 16289280 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: I wonder how much of this is just Hanlon being Hanlon. Pat Hanlon's career, while not football-related, is a rather telling example of how loyalty and being considered a part of the family trumps competence for the Giants.

I'll still never forget how he made a fool of himself on twitter in '21 when the ship was in flames. A grown man acting like a child.

In comment 16289326 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 16289310 ThomasG said: Quote: And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific. Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon. Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory. They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake.

I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.

Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain.

Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it.

I screwed up the thread link. Here's the right one.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 16289370 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16289326 JonC said: Quote: In comment 16289310 ThomasG said: Quote: And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific. Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon. Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory. They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake. I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless. Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain. Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it.

And yet, they do. I will agree to disagree.

In comment 16289372 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I screwed up the thread link. Here's the right one. Link - ( New Window )

Yeah, that was a strange afternoon. Of all the things, right?

Different tack, I think this was an interesting nugget in there (besides my Drake Maye reference)... ;)

Quote:

bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 15888643 bw in dc said: Unless Jones goes Mahomes the second half of the season, I would only consider two options: (1) Tag and make him prove it again. (2) Let him walk and thank him for his time. And that because for (1), it's really hard to discern how much is Jones and how much is system. To be fair, it's probably 60/40 - Jones right now. Which, for me, isn't compelling enough for a long term deal.

sensitive, aren't they?

Yes, they deserve to be called Jints central with stuff like this.

In comment 16289370 ThomasG said:

Quote:

I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless.

I think you're taking your read on the situation and assuming they see it the same way as you. When the football world thought Dave Gettleman was incompetent and a doddering old fool this ownership doubled down and let him play out his entire contract.

When the roster was broken and the performance was awful, they booted Tom Coughlin and doubled down on 'this roster is close to contending', and hired McAdoo and retained Reese to stay the course.


I will not assume the Giants subscribe to the point of view that may be obvious to many.

Even the sight of him hanging around training camp in that ridiculous hat....

In comment 16289372 Go Terps said:

Quote:

I screwed up the thread link. Here's the right one. Link - ( New Window )

Jesus I just re-read that thread. Putting everything else aside, gidie was completely out of line. Agree with your points or not, there is nothing disrespectful in those posts. That was an attempt to silence opinions he didn't like, nothing more.

And I'd happily take a banning if he thinks that is out of line. That was absurd.

In comment 16289353 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Even at 6-1 it was evident (at least to people who weren't shills) that Jones wasn't the reason they were winning and wasn't worth paying. And for what it's worth, the amount the Athletic guys speculated Jones would ask was $20M per year. Giving Jones that contract was a fucking joke. Same old clown show.

Well they did take away the unlimited salad and breadsticks as part of the deal.

In comment 16289382 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 16289370 ThomasG said: Quote: In comment 16289326 JonC said: Quote: In comment 16289310 ThomasG said: Quote: And they can also start their own OP and gauge whatever they heart desires if they want to be specific. Not a strong front office and hasn't been for awhile, but that doesn't mean everybody plays GM in the building. Schoen needs to not become part of the bad, but to drive his own way. He simply got lost (as did Daboll) in first year success and made an error in judgment with Jones and Saquon. Nevertheless, and you don't need a balloon to surmise they will be going QB early next draft. Just use common sense while others play Conspiracy Theory. They haven't earned that level of safe assumption. Common sense suggests they should go QB early, but would you honestly be surprised if they do not? These media bits are testing the fanbase, make no mistake. I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless. Top picks in a QB-rich drafts are for teams to do just that, draft a top QB prospect. And the 2023 NY Giants are the "poster-child" for needing to solve for the position and put a positive face on this franchise. It isn't Jones, Barkley or Thibs for certain. Whether these media bits are testing the fanbase is not even worthy of debating. Not only is it silly, but it is also extremely inefficent if they really care about garnering such wide-spread fan opinion. I certainly wouldn't bother with it. And yet, they do. I will agree to disagree.

Fine to disagree as well. Hopefully though on just how silly the trial balloon method is, and not the fundamental need to draft a QB.

In comment 16289387 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Even the sight of him hanging around training camp in that ridiculous hat....

Worst hire of my lifetime.

NYG clearly needs to draft a QB early. Bordering on insanity if they don't, if you ask me. Even if it's with one of their #2 picks after missing out on a blue chip and going elsewhere at the top.

And they monitor this site because they know there is a strong following here that will shower praise on everything they do. Hell most people who went to the mat defending the genius of Dave Gettleman really never said "Gee, maybe I got that one wrong."

It's confirmation bias. When people agree with you, they are good, smart people. The people who disagree with you are dumb and should be looked down upon and condescended to like Papa just did.

Everyone is wrong sometimes. Just move on.

In comment 16289385 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16289370 ThomasG said: Quote: I would be just short of shocked if they do not. Not only is Jones not what they hoped, he is injured and will not be recovered anyway. It would be reckless. I think you're taking your read on the situation and assuming they see it the same way as you. When the football world thought Dave Gettleman was incompetent and a doddering old fool this ownership doubled down and let him play out his entire contract. When the roster was broken and the performance was awful, they booted Tom Coughlin and doubled down on 'this roster is close to contending', and hired McAdoo and retained Reese to stay the course. I will not assume the Giants subscribe to the point of view that may be obvious to many.

That's fine, but I can probably name just as many situations where they did do the obvious thing too but those are conveniently not debated. Just because the Mara's don't have the same timeline in altering courses as fans would doesn't mean we should assume an obvious future decision will be ignored.

And the next obvious future decision is that Schoen will draft a new QB next year.

The only thing not obvious is which one.

In comment 16289395 JonC said:

Quote:

NYG clearly needs to draft a QB early. Bordering on insanity if they don't, if you ask me. Even if it's with one of their #2 picks after missing out on a blue chip and going elsewhere at the top.

without question

In comment 16289396 Mike from Ohio said:

Quote:

And they monitor this site because they know there is a strong following here that will shower praise on everything they do. Hell most people who went to the mat defending the genius of Dave Gettleman really never said "Gee, maybe I got that one wrong." It's confirmation bias. When people agree with you, they are good, smart people. The people who disagree with you are dumb and should be looked down upon and condescended to like Papa just did. Everyone is wrong sometimes. Just move on.

Frankly the Giants haven't been right on too much in the past 10/12 years.
I do think JM gets far to much blame for "meddling." Name one owner that doesn't "meddle." You can likely find the same claims on the fan sites of most NFL teams, especially the ones with losing records.
I guess you could say the family meddles since they hold a few upper level positions in scouting and player personnel.

Not sure if it was SY, JonC or christian that said a lot of the same guys are still there from when Accorsi(something to that affect) was there. At first glance, it is like "so what." And then you see there is never consistency with the Giants except wallowing in failure consistently. They had a decent run from 2006 to 2012ish, but before that - ick and since then yuck.

I don't know how a team with so many family owners involved in the operation can flush itself of this condition. They are not likely to fire themselves. Bringing in Schoen and Brown is a good start. They got a few new scouts and people in player personnel, but the leadership hasn't changed much. The various "owners" need to recuse themselves and perhaps let the entire operation be run by an unrelated entity.

but they haven't gotten a lot right to say 'well we don't talk about the times they chose the right path' from an ownership perspective. Maybe hiring Schoen was correct. Far too early to tell but I like him.

Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end.

1- Mara’s criticism of Kevin Gilbride in 2013. Gilbride had a big role in winning a trophy just two years ago and here he was being criticized publicly despite Coughlin’s support. Then Mara doubled down implying that some young lousy 3rd rounder WR was being held back by Gilbride. That press conference has aged badly. Really badly.

2- The firing of McAdoo and Reese. I’m guessing there was some miscommunication in the meeting when they decided to start Geno, but if it was so pivotal a meeting, why wasn’t the decision formalized and defined so everyone understood what was agreed to? And why would an NFL owner cave to fan Pressure in such a craven way? And why would Mara behave so dishonorably to his head coach and long time GM? In fact, w was Reese fired anyway? Why was that never addressed? Meanwhile, Geno Smith led a team to the playoffs last season.

Mara didnt just look like a blunderer. He looked simultaneously weak and untrustworthy. It’s formed a very bad impression.

In comment 16289430 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

but they haven't gotten a lot right to say 'well we don't talk about the times they chose the right path' from an ownership perspective. Maybe hiring Schoen was correct. Far too early to tell but I like him. Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end.

Do we really have to go back pre-Schoen here? This fan base got what they wanted with a true outside GM hire who then took charge of the HC process as well. Let's at least stay in the present when you take your tally of the front office situation.

Schoen hasn't been able to play in free agency much because of the cap situation but have you really disagreed with his choices in the draft so far? Neal and Thibs aren't all-pros, but he has done pretty obvious things in his first two drafts. He put Dex and Thomas under long term deals which was obvious. He didn't rubber stamp a Jones 5th year option but made him play into a new deal which was fair. He absolutely made a mistake in not tagging Jones and letting Barkley test the market, but letting them both walk was never going to happen and was not obvious. When we started falling out place, Schoen also moved Big Leo for picks which is helpful.

Gettleman was a moron and we have had some bad coaches. I think Schoen and Daboll are better and are not puppets for Mara. I do think both thought they had more to work with (from DJ and the roster) after a successful year one and made some evaluation mistakes on Offense. A new QB though is sitting there to potentially rectify that though...just make the obvious decision.

Half-measures and changing horses midstream has been characteristic of this front office for years. The most obvious example is how they bungled the QB transition from Eli to Jones and are now doing the same with Jones to his successor.

They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023.

What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?

In comment 16289500 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Half-measures and changing horses midstream has been characteristic of this front office for years. The most obvious example is how they bungled the QB transition from Eli to Jones and are now doing the same with Jones to his successor. They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023. What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?

I think they will have wound up paying a huge amount for just a few Jones starts as you state. But that is a function of his injury as much as it was a bad idea not to tag him as well.

If anything, I think having so little on Offense and being stubborn about possibly losing Barkley was the downfall for wasting a whole lot of money with Jones. Schoen screwed that up because (like most of this fan board) he valued the Minnesota playoff game more than the Philadelphia one.

Anything pre-Schoen is not that interesting to me in this debate as piling on could go back to why Lombardi or Landry both were allowed to leave.

Or maybe I just don't have time for the pain.

The fish rots from the head.

I still can't believe TC got canned, but somehow Reese survived. Half measure AF.

Just reading this thread gets me mad AF about that clown Mara. He's turned this franchise into a joke. You have BBI posters-who are the top .00001 of fans-not even watching the fucking games!

In comment 16289500 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Half-measures and changing horses midstream has been characteristic of this front office for years. The most obvious example is how they bungled the QB transition from Eli to Jones and are now doing the same with Jones to his successor. They paid Eli $23M for 4 starts on 2019. There is a decent chance they paid Jones $81M for 6 starts in 2023. What are the chances that Reese, Gettleman, Schoen, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, and Daboll are all incompetent fools? We know Gettleman was, but all the others too?

Eli was cooked in 2016. Not sure where you stood on that. But that was on Reese.
Unfortunately, it appears Daboll was good enough to get more out of Jones than he should have and it lead to a contract that absolutely looks bad. But teams sign bad QB deals often enough. They are stuck with it, but perhaps SChoen has seen the light now and will get a replacement in 2024.

In comment 16289485 ThomasG said:

Quote:

In comment 16289430 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: but they haven't gotten a lot right to say 'well we don't talk about the times they chose the right path' from an ownership perspective. Maybe hiring Schoen was correct. Far too early to tell but I like him. Even (correctly) firing Judge required becoming a national punchline, the coach melting down in embarrassing public fashion, and Tisch needing to get vocal to push Mara to let Judge go. They were going to keep him until the bitter end. Do we really have to go back pre-Schoen here? This fan base got what they wanted with a true outside GM hire who then took charge of the HC process as well. Let's at least stay in the present when you take your tally of the front office situation. Schoen hasn't been able to play in free agency much because of the cap situation but have you really disagreed with his choices in the draft so far? Neal and Thibs aren't all-pros, but he has done pretty obvious things in his first two drafts. He put Dex and Thomas under long term deals which was obvious. He didn't rubber stamp a Jones 5th year option but made him play into a new deal which was fair. He absolutely made a mistake in not tagging Jones and letting Barkley test the market, but letting them both walk was never going to happen and was not obvious. When we started falling out place, Schoen also moved Big Leo for picks which is helpful. Gettleman was a moron and we have had some bad coaches. I think Schoen and Daboll are better and are not puppets for Mara. I do think both thought they had more to work with (from DJ and the roster) after a successful year one and made some evaluation mistakes on Offense. A new QB though is sitting there to potentially rectify that though...just make the obvious decision.

This is a point many don't understand, we don't get okereke if Jones was tagged. Okereke looks like a great signing, reminds me of the Antonio Pierce signing in 2006.

The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper
@GiantInsider
You mean like when Mara didn’t want Kadarius Toney and kept asking Gettleman “you sure about this guy?” Look, Mara is the owner and of course involved. But heavy handed? Runs the draft? Furtherest thing from the truth.
Quote
Richard Savner
@RichardSavner
·
40m
Replying to @GiantInsider and @BobPapa_NFL
Chris- until they actually do it, I’ll still believe that the John Mara is just like his father and too involved and heavy handed. I wouldn’t be shocked if they took a pass rusher or OT

The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper
@GiantInsider
·
1m
All I’m telling you bud is, if Schoen wants a QB, he will take a QB. In no way will Mara tell him “nope, I want a tackle”
Quote
Richard Savner
@RichardSavner
·
7m
Replying to @GiantInsider
Never said he runs the draft. But he stuck his nose in with Eli and until Joe schoen he wouldn’t hire a guy unless they at least work as a ball boy for the giants 30 years ago. Or because Belichick told him to. Which he did more than once. He’s been overbearing and archaic

I think Dabs is done with Jones. I suspect Joe is too.

Let the post DJ era begin dammit!

I knew this was gonna be a gem. Repetitive, as expected, but the regulars really brought it. Been looking forward to this brand of crazy all day. Kudos!

That's interesting about Toney. Such a bizarre pick that was.

For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument
. - ( New Window )

In comment 16289604 Sean said:

Quote:

That's interesting about Toney. Such a bizarre pick that was.

Wasn't the rumor that Judge really wanted Toney?

And that was based on the video where Judge is smiling while Gettleman slumps away shaking his head in the War Room...

In comment 16289612 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window )

Like clockwork JonC, lol.

In comment 16289615 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16289612 ajr2456 said: Quote: For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window ) Like clockwork JonC, lol.

Great job by Papa there. Danny Devito? Holy moly.

In comment 16289582 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

Quote:

I think Dabs is done with Jones. I suspect Joe is too. Let the post DJ era begin dammit!

The feeling is probably mutual. Jones is lucky Daboll didn’t put him in a wheelchair and Schoen has actually done the impossible and made the OL worse than it already was.

than sitting here day after day trying to figure out how much Mara is involved in personnel decisions. We'll never know for sure, but he's involved to some extent, and he's the owner. I'd imagine almost all the NFL owners are involved to some extent, and it's perfectly OK: they own the fucking team. They're allowed to have opinions on who they hire.

IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point?

In comment 16289615 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

In comment 16289612 ajr2456 said: Quote: For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window ) Like clockwork JonC, lol.

Yessir!

and make it known to the Giants organization that the fans 1)don't want Jones to return as starter and 2)They're tired of the half measures and the way the Franchise is operating.

Up to and including these trial balloons using certain reporters.

In comment 16289612 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window )

Carl Banks is in on this conspiracy too???

In comment 16289673 Ron Johnson said:

Quote:

In comment 16289612 ajr2456 said: Quote: For Banks to bring out the “anyone will suck behind the oline” argument . - ( New Window ) Carl Banks is in on this conspiracy too???

Some of the trial balloons are posters on BBI too.

In comment 16289631 mittenedman said:

Quote:

than sitting here day after day trying to figure out how much Mara is involved in personnel decisions. We'll never know for sure, but he's involved to some extent, and he's the owner. I'd imagine almost all the NFL owners are involved to some extent, and it's perfectly OK: they own the fucking team. They're allowed to have opinions on who they hire. IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point?

I guess for some people BBI is the main focus in their life . Why else would the same people rehash the same subjects everyday?

In comment 16289728 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 16289631 mittenedman said: Quote: than sitting here day after day trying to figure out how much Mara is involved in personnel decisions. We'll never know for sure, but he's involved to some extent, and he's the owner. I'd imagine almost all the NFL owners are involved to some extent, and it's perfectly OK: they own the fucking team. They're allowed to have opinions on who they hire. IMO, either accept that Mara has some level of involvement and make your peace with it, and continue to follow the team, or decide you can't respect it anymore and just stop. To stay stuck in this k-hole of trying to figure out exactly how heavily he's involved is obsessive, digging up quotes, etc. is a bore. What's the point? I guess for some people BBI is the main focus in their life . Why else would the same people rehash the same subjects everyday?

And the only thing worse is the people who come to BBI to talk about other posters instead of talking about the Giants.