It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
RE: Thibs would be a nightmare in the Dallas defense
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Good post.. Totally agree. Look what LT did for this franchise. Made everyone around him better instantly
if the QB is there at 2, don't think twice. We need that kind of player I just hope the QB is that kind of of player. WE don't want good. We need great. The locker room needs it.
Almost certain this is an indictment on the o-line and offensive coaches.
Thibs is not a failure on a talent basis. Might not be in an ideal system for him but he’s still productive.
I hope we at least can bring in a top level o-line coach, none of our young lineman are playing at high level… most are well below average.
RE: RE: I get the feeling if the Cowboys had drafted them ...
He has been injured often, and the G next to him has sucked, so this hampers development. Maybe he isn't a RT, but then I'd try him a G next season. I think there is something there.
Thibs is a very good player
RE: I get the feeling if the Cowboys had drafted them ...
He won't get that here and on most NFL teams which makes him a risky pick. Got the 3.4 on a You Tube video regarding QBs. This board has been horrible on QBs. Rosen Darnold Willis Haskings were all BBI darlings.
Thibodeaux was basically a wasted jersey on Sunday.
And they really don’t miss on those positions very much.
I actually heard a cowboys beat reporter talking about how lucky they've been the last decade or so where their number 1 prospects at their spot have been taken right before them and then they had to settle for guys like Parson and Zach Martin, so theres that.
Agree with a lot of the comments about Neal especially
First off, he has played next to terrible RGs and hasn't had much TE help either. In Dallas he would have both and look a lot better right now. I think if we passed on him, there would be a ton of threads every week blasting the Giants for not taking him. This is why I would go out and get the very best RG available this off season.
Don't forget, Neal was projected as high as the #1 pick and was consistently a top 10 pick right up to the draft. He really was a no brainer pick, whether he works out or not.
handling versus top teams, but their drafting and player development operation is elite. These guys are taking guys from all over the draft and turning them into productive NFL players.
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
Me too.
So this is saying the NYG coaches are the problem. Not the player evaluation or draft decision.
Just for a second, envision him lining up on the right with Parsons on the left. How good do you think Thibs would be in that scenario, regardless of coaching or scheme.
RE: Thibs would be a nightmare in the Dallas defense
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Yep, this team needs better players. Yes, coaching has a massive impact but we have been getting mediocrity on the O-line for YEARS. Lets continue to build the lines via the draft ala Cowboys and Philly, and we will be in a better spot.
He has been injured often, and the G next to him has sucked, so this hampers development. Maybe he isn't a RT, but then I'd try him a G next season. I think there is something there.
Thibs is a very good player
But Neal's problem is his feet in pass pro. He just can't move around the edge to extend the defensive player around the pocket. He can only chip them as they run by him.
Players drafted have other players of high quality around them that can coach them and teach them techniques that make that player a better pro.
Dallas is a good landing spot for players to develop. Lamb, Pollard, and Ferguson who are now the one's were not when they were drafted. There are many examples of this on the team.
When you're drafted by NY you're expected to make an immediate impact. This is not ideal for good young players who need to develop and grow into their roles.
RE: I get the feeling if the Cowboys had drafted them ...
However big the Giants Cowboy's roster talent gap, the on the 2023 field talent gap is enormous. Thibs would be a monster with that DL, and he's been pretty damn good this season anyway.
Want to see Neal improve? Play from ahead. Want to see the Cowboys OL (and entire team) struggle? Hurt a few starters and have them play from behind like they had to against SFO and AZ.
I saw enough improvement from Neal before his latest injuries to conclude he's a workable RT at worst with a better guy next to him. I think an upgrade at RG translates to an upgrading Neal at RT.
And like so many other things this season, who really knows anymore with the MASH unit nonsense.
He won't get that here and on most NFL teams which makes him a risky pick. Got the 3.4 on a You Tube video regarding QBs. This board has been horrible on QBs. Rosen Darnold Willis Haskings were all BBI darlings.
There was no universal BBI opinion on a single one of those guys. In fact the overwhelming majority of posters didn't want Rosen, Willis or Haskins.
If you want to sound smarter than everyone, try using facts instead of your imagination when you post.
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
If Thibs were a cowgirl he would draw a hold on the offense every play. As a Giant he seldom gets a call.
Also on Dallas Thibs couldn't draw the huge number of double-teams he sees now. Teams gameplan to take him out of the plays by double-teaming him and forcing other players to beat them
RE: RE: RE: RE: I get the feeling if the Cowboys had drafted them ...
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
Me too.
So this is saying the NYG coaches are the problem. Not the player evaluation or draft decision.
Just for a second, envision him lining up on the right with Parsons on the left. How good do you think Thibs would be in that scenario, regardless of coaching or scheme.
If that is what Thibs needs to provide more of a consistent impact than we picked him too high.
By the way, there is an All-Pro named Dexter Lawrence playing about as well as any DL is playing in the entire league. And he is only about 10 feet away from Thibs. Does that help Thibs too or not?
RE: Thibs would be a nightmare in the Dallas defense
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Exactly.. Agree 100%
Giants don't have the coaches they have.
if the QB is there at 2, don't think twice. We need that kind of player I just hope the QB is that kind of of player. WE don't want good. We need great. The locker room needs it.
Agree but "great" is a crap shoot. Nobody really knows. You can probably count on one hand the number of highly drafted QBs who were going to be great and were. In fact, you can probably count more who people thought WOULD be great and turned out not to be.
That'd be advantageous because he seems to play more naturally on the left side. He'd be next to AT on his left and Schmitz on his right. He would need to adjust to the interior, but there's no reason he couldn't do it.
He's a hard working kid and there's precedent for it. William Roberts did it back in day as a #1 pick who didn't work out at OT. Once moved inside, he became a pro bowler. Guy was a monster. I don't wanna bring up Eric Flowers, but I will anyway. He moved inside and became productive and he was a *ickhead. Neal, despite spouting off last month, is not. Brandon Scherff is another guy who has drafted highly at OT that moved to OG and flourished. He was drafted even higher than Neal was (5th overall instead of 7th) and is a taller man playing inside, listed at 6'5". It can be done.
Get Neal a Prime Time OL Coach too. Bobby Johnson is a JAG of an OL Coach. See if you can lure Russ Grimm out of retirement in Pennsylvania. He's 64, which isn't ancient. If you can't, you can't. Shoot your shot with him first. The point is this: Get an upgrade at OL Coach. That will work wonders. Address the right side of the OL too in FA and the draft, so that Neal can concentrate on the left interior side instead of revisiting a failed experiment. No reason to play musical chairs anymore. Let him settle in, and the get the OL settled in once and for all with young players who are coachable.
Thibs is a whole other issue. They need to just continue to surround him with better players. I'm bullish on him. He gets held all the time. We know this, but the officials aren't gonna call the game as fairly as they should. We know that. Improve the talent on D and let's go. He needs to get better at setting the edge of course. Can't deny that. Osi had that issue as well.
I think Thibs can be an Osi type of player coming off of the edge. He can be better though. I've got my concerns about Wink's Amoeba defense that's all over the place. Get some stout DL in there if you're gonna play a 3-4 already, not a teacher's pet in Jihad Ward who everyone and their mother knows they can run on.
Anywho, Thibs is part of the solution going forward. He needs to stay healthy and become more consistent though, which he can absolutely do. If you let him do what he does best---rush the passer---he will shine; however, those other things I mentioned need to be addressed/improved upon. Wink might not necessarily be the man to lead this defense long term. We need a John Fox type take him to the next level.
Good post Optimis, agree with your point on Neal to G.
Although I do think he's starting to pick up his play, right around the time Willie Anderson said he would. Unfortunately he got injured which really hurts the evaluation just as it appeared he was settling down a bit.
That said, I love his size and natural strength matching up with the beast DTs in the NFC East. I see it as one of the primary reasons we can't compete with DAL and PHI - we get destroyed on the interior. Neal can physically match up.
I think he can be a better G than T, even if he ends up smoothing out at T.
RE: Good post Optimis, agree with your point on Neal to G.
Although I do think he's starting to pick up his play, right around the time Willie Anderson said he would. Unfortunately he got injured which really hurts the evaluation just as it appeared he was settling down a bit.
That said, I love his size and natural strength matching up with the beast DTs in the NFC East. I see it as one of the primary reasons we can't compete with DAL and PHI - we get destroyed on the interior. Neal can physically match up.
I think he can be a better G than T, even if he ends up smoothing out at T.
Agreed with you about Neal. He is a POWERFUL young fella. Turn him loose on the inside. I think he can learn to play very well in a phone booth with his wrestling background. If he gets his hands on a DL it should favor him. Right now, he's discombobulated out there on the edge and is getting his lunch handed to him. He could eventually be decent out there at OT, but he could be very good inside at Guard, especially on his natural side (left guard). Check out the hread below about him from Reddit.
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
This. So many fans don’t realize how malleable a young player is and how much environment matters. This is why losing out to get a better draft pick is a fool’s gold strategy.
100%. Neal probably plays well and never gets injured for Dallas.
Me too.
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Good post.. Totally agree. Look what LT did for this franchise. Made everyone around him better instantly
Thibs is not a failure on a talent basis. Might not be in an ideal system for him but he’s still productive.
I hope we at least can bring in a top level o-line coach, none of our young lineman are playing at high level… most are well below average.
Quote:
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
Me too.
So this is saying the NYG coaches are the problem. Not the player evaluation or draft decision.
Thibs is a very good player
Thibodeaux is pretty close, but not near the impact.
You do realize Thibs has 8.5 sacks, right?
Dallas never even blinked about his presence coming from the edge and passed at will.
I actually heard a cowboys beat reporter talking about how lucky they've been the last decade or so where their number 1 prospects at their spot have been taken right before them and then they had to settle for guys like Parson and Zach Martin, so theres that.
Don't forget, Neal was projected as high as the #1 pick and was consistently a top 10 pick right up to the draft. He really was a no brainer pick, whether he works out or not.
Link - ( New Window )
Andrew Thomas was the worst lineman in football before Judge fired Columbo. Coaching is huge.
Quote:
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
You do realize Thibs has 8.5 sacks, right?
Yeah. I think he'd be even better in Dallas.
Agree 100%. DAL would've just plugged Neal in at G and Thibs at 43 DE and been done with it. And they would've integrated into a winning team.
Instead, they got drafted by the Washington Generals.
Quote:
In comment 16288987 FStubbs said:
Quote:
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
Me too.
So this is saying the NYG coaches are the problem. Not the player evaluation or draft decision.
Just for a second, envision him lining up on the right with Parsons on the left. How good do you think Thibs would be in that scenario, regardless of coaching or scheme.
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Yep, this team needs better players. Yes, coaching has a massive impact but we have been getting mediocrity on the O-line for YEARS. Lets continue to build the lines via the draft ala Cowboys and Philly, and we will be in a better spot.
Thibs is a very good player
Dallas is a good landing spot for players to develop. Lamb, Pollard, and Ferguson who are now the one's were not when they were drafted. There are many examples of this on the team.
When you're drafted by NY you're expected to make an immediate impact. This is not ideal for good young players who need to develop and grow into their roles.
If Thibs were a cowgirl he would draw a hold on the offense every play. As a Giant he seldom gets a call.
Want to see Neal improve? Play from ahead. Want to see the Cowboys OL (and entire team) struggle? Hurt a few starters and have them play from behind like they had to against SFO and AZ.
I saw enough improvement from Neal before his latest injuries to conclude he's a workable RT at worst with a better guy next to him. I think an upgrade at RG translates to an upgrading Neal at RT.
And like so many other things this season, who really knows anymore with the MASH unit nonsense.
If the Cowboys were able to draft those 2, they would be undefeated this year and win it all.
There was no universal BBI opinion on a single one of those guys. In fact the overwhelming majority of posters didn't want Rosen, Willis or Haskins.
If you want to sound smarter than everyone, try using facts instead of your imagination when you post.
Quote:
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
If Thibs were a cowgirl he would draw a hold on the offense every play. As a Giant he seldom gets a call.
Also on Dallas Thibs couldn't draw the huge number of double-teams he sees now. Teams gameplan to take him out of the plays by double-teaming him and forcing other players to beat them
Quote:
In comment 16288994 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16288987 FStubbs said:
Quote:
Neal would be near Pro Bowl status and Thibodeaux would have 11-12 sacks.
Me too.
So this is saying the NYG coaches are the problem. Not the player evaluation or draft decision.
Just for a second, envision him lining up on the right with Parsons on the left. How good do you think Thibs would be in that scenario, regardless of coaching or scheme.
If that is what Thibs needs to provide more of a consistent impact than we picked him too high.
By the way, there is an All-Pro named Dexter Lawrence playing about as well as any DL is playing in the entire league. And he is only about 10 feet away from Thibs. Does that help Thibs too or not?
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
Exactly.. Agree 100%
Giants don't have the coaches they have.
Agree but "great" is a crap shoot. Nobody really knows. You can probably count on one hand the number of highly drafted QBs who were going to be great and were. In fact, you can probably count more who people thought WOULD be great and turned out not to be.
He's a hard working kid and there's precedent for it. William Roberts did it back in day as a #1 pick who didn't work out at OT. Once moved inside, he became a pro bowler. Guy was a monster. I don't wanna bring up Eric Flowers, but I will anyway. He moved inside and became productive and he was a *ickhead. Neal, despite spouting off last month, is not. Brandon Scherff is another guy who has drafted highly at OT that moved to OG and flourished. He was drafted even higher than Neal was (5th overall instead of 7th) and is a taller man playing inside, listed at 6'5". It can be done.
Get Neal a Prime Time OL Coach too. Bobby Johnson is a JAG of an OL Coach. See if you can lure Russ Grimm out of retirement in Pennsylvania. He's 64, which isn't ancient. If you can't, you can't. Shoot your shot with him first. The point is this: Get an upgrade at OL Coach. That will work wonders. Address the right side of the OL too in FA and the draft, so that Neal can concentrate on the left interior side instead of revisiting a failed experiment. No reason to play musical chairs anymore. Let him settle in, and the get the OL settled in once and for all with young players who are coachable.
Thibs is a whole other issue. They need to just continue to surround him with better players. I'm bullish on him. He gets held all the time. We know this, but the officials aren't gonna call the game as fairly as they should. We know that. Improve the talent on D and let's go. He needs to get better at setting the edge of course. Can't deny that. Osi had that issue as well.
I think Thibs can be an Osi type of player coming off of the edge. He can be better though. I've got my concerns about Wink's Amoeba defense that's all over the place. Get some stout DL in there if you're gonna play a 3-4 already, not a teacher's pet in Jihad Ward who everyone and their mother knows they can run on.
Anywho, Thibs is part of the solution going forward. He needs to stay healthy and become more consistent though, which he can absolutely do. If you let him do what he does best---rush the passer---he will shine; however, those other things I mentioned need to be addressed/improved upon. Wink might not necessarily be the man to lead this defense long term. We need a John Fox type take him to the next level.
That said, I love his size and natural strength matching up with the beast DTs in the NFC East. I see it as one of the primary reasons we can't compete with DAL and PHI - we get destroyed on the interior. Neal can physically match up.
I think he can be a better G than T, even if he ends up smoothing out at T.
That said, I love his size and natural strength matching up with the beast DTs in the NFC East. I see it as one of the primary reasons we can't compete with DAL and PHI - we get destroyed on the interior. Neal can physically match up.
I think he can be a better G than T, even if he ends up smoothing out at T.
Agreed with you about Neal. He is a POWERFUL young fella. Turn him loose on the inside. I think he can learn to play very well in a phone booth with his wrestling background. If he gets his hands on a DL it should favor him. Right now, he's discombobulated out there on the edge and is getting his lunch handed to him. He could eventually be decent out there at OT, but he could be very good inside at Guard, especially on his natural side (left guard). Check out the hread below about him from Reddit.
Reddit.com Giants thread- Evan Neal since he was a rookie was forced the change the Technique that got him drafted, to fit our system, Bobby Johnson’s system might be ruining Evan Neal’s career - ( New Window )
It's not even the coaching as much as you surround a young struggling player with great players and that young player is going to grow, especially on the OL where you're only as strong as the weakest link.
It's a team game. When the team breaks down, the individual breaks down. This is why I have been screaming to move heaven and earth to find that great great player. Fuck average players that are filling a hole or need. Find me the great player that is going to scare the shit and fail out of everyone.
Every bad team like this is one legendary player away.
This. So many fans don’t realize how malleable a young player is and how much environment matters. This is why losing out to get a better draft pick is a fool’s gold strategy.