JaMarcus Russell
Joey Harrington
Daniel Jones
Sam Darnold
Matt Leinart
Tim Tebow
Josh Rosen
Brandon Weeden
JP Loseman
Brady Quinn
Christian Ponder
Kyle Boller
Vince Young
Baker Mayfield
All first round picks.
The odds of getting this NFL talent level is equal or worse than the odds of getting the next Joe Borrow, no matter where you pick.
Arizona, Cleveland, Jets, Giants, Panthers, Commanders Bears, Falcons and Titans all draft in the top half of the draft every years and all of them still suck.
Keep dreaming if you're one of those that advocates tanking. Losing "tanks" your culture and it rarely makes a team better quickly. Even the Lions, who have drafted high for 20 years took that look to be competitive.
The end...
JaMarcus Russell
Joey Harrington
Daniel Jones
Sam Darnold
Matt Leinart
Tim Tebow
Josh Rosen
Brandon Weeden
JP Loseman
Brady Quinn
Christian Ponder
Kyle Boller
Vince Young
Baker Mayfield
Daniel Jones
You missed one.
the odds of getting Borrow (or Burrow), Herbert, Mahomes, Allen, Stroud, Lamar, etc. even throw in Hurts, Brady, etc (QB's not picked in the 1st round) are remarkably higher at the top of the draft, not "no matter where you pick"
the fact that QB's have a high bust rate does not change the fact that overwhelmingly the best QB's are picked in the 1st round.
Quote:
JaMarcus Russell
Joey Harrington
Daniel Jones
Sam Darnold
Matt Leinart
Tim Tebow
Josh Rosen
Brandon Weeden
JP Loseman
Brady Quinn
Christian Ponder
Kyle Boller
Vince Young
Baker Mayfield
Daniel Jones
You missed one.
He has one Jones boy- needs the other
how about Marcus Mariotta, EJ Manuel, and Jake Locker
The higher you pick gives you more opportunity to pick the guy you think is best suited for helping the team. Often, that is QB, and sometimes they don't work out. But the same goes for other high drafted non-QBs. You still have to do all the work of scouting, interviewing, measuring, etc each of which introduces a new set of variables not controlled by draft position.
LOL my bad. But maybe?
Probably need to think about skipping the Draft altogether.
Too many busts.
RB
DE
LB
CB
S
TE
OL
Got it, thanks!
RB
DE
LB
CB
S
TE
OL
Evan Neal
Eli Manning
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Joe Burrow
Matthew Stafford
Philip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Aaron Rodgers
Deshaun Watson
Tua
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan
Andrew Luck
Alex Smith
CJ Stroud
Jared Goff
Evan Engram
Daniel Jones
Kadarius Toney
Evan Neal
Same Thread - ( New Window )
Not at all what I am implying. You can EASILY make things worst by tanking as some here advocate every year.
Got it, thanks!
That's one (dumb) interpretation of what I said....
Eli Manning
Patrick Mahomes
Josh Allen
Joe Burrow
Matthew Stafford
Philip Rivers
Ben Roethlisberger
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Aaron Rodgers
Deshaun Watson
Tua
Jay Cutler
Matt Ryan
Andrew Luck
Alex Smith
CJ Stroud
Jared Goff
Yep and you can do Brad Johnson (free agent signing), Trend Dilfer (free agent signing), etc. etc..... tanking tanks franchises....
Quote:
JaMarcus Russell
Joey Harrington
Daniel Jones
Sam Darnold
Matt Leinart
Tim Tebow
Josh Rosen
Brandon Weeden
JP Loseman
Brady Quinn
Christian Ponder
Kyle Boller
Vince Young
Baker Mayfield
Daniel Jones
You missed one.
The enthusiasm and haste you use in criticizing Daniel has caused you to be careless, read the list again
I would say all three teams were rewarded handsomely with strong QB play and multiple SB's for the Giants and Steelers.
I think it is incumbent on Schoen, Dabol and the scouts to pick the best possible college QB destined for pro success. It isn't that hard to see some top qualities in this crop of college QB's.......seeing the whole field, athleticism, leadership, ability to put his team on his back at times, winning close games with last minute or two minute drives when the pressure is most intense. I am sure I am missing some.
Ernie Accorsi said in his book that he scouted and ultimately chose Eli because of the number of times while in the stadium, he saw Eli lead Ole Miss down the field to win close games at the end.
"A QB can bust, therefore you should never draft one because he may be bad. You should pick something like a RT high because they are safe picks that don't bust."
Oh, Hi Ereck Flowers! Sorry, didn't see you there, Evan Neal!
If you don't trust your GM and scouts to be able to select a QB and develop him, then you should fire them, not avoid drafting a QB.
The draft is not a random draw where "odds" and "percentages" dictate decisions. You have access to information to make informed decisions, and you can influence the success or failure of the pick when you coach him.
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Is that your odds of hitting on a top 10 QB aren't 100%, so if you draft one at say.... 6 and 5 years later it isn't working out you shouldn't have to feel bad about taking another swing at one.
Got it, thanks!
That's one (dumb) interpretation of what I said....
Maybe you can clean that up in your next attempt at starting basically the same thread every few days.
Does Friday work for you?
Quote:
.
Not at all what I am implying. You can EASILY make things worst by tanking as some here advocate every year.
Tim, you and your uncles have been making things worse for a decade.
Step away from the computer and go enjoy your trust fund. The team will only improve when your fingerprints are wiped clean from the roster.
Assume the Giants pick #1. Question is simple. Do they think any QB is franchise worthy in this draft. Then draft him. Or trade the pick for a massive haul and run with DJ. And I suspect the appetite for the latter is zero.
We may end up in QB hell. But that is the risk you take.
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In comment 16289697 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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.
Not at all what I am implying. You can EASILY make things worst by tanking as some here advocate every year.
Tim, you and your uncles have been making things worse for a decade.
Step away from the computer and go enjoy your trust fund. The team will only improve when your fingerprints are wiped clean from the roster.
Director of Player Personnel - Tim McDonnell ?
What’s the alternative to finding a good quarterback? Keep paying Daniel Jones 20 % of the cap and pray the magically shows he’s a good QB in his 6th or 7th season? Something he hasn’t consistently shown his entire nfl and college career?
You can say well players bust, no shit, players bust no matter where you pick
I would say all three teams were rewarded handsomely with strong QB play and multiple SB's for the Giants and Steelers.
I think it is incumbent on Schoen, Dabol and the scouts to pick the best possible college QB destined for pro success. It isn't that hard to see some top qualities in this crop of college QB's.......seeing the whole field, athleticism, leadership, ability to put his team on his back at times, winning close games with last minute or two minute drives when the pressure is most intense. I am sure I am missing some.
Ernie Accorsi said in his book that he scouted and ultimately chose Eli because of the number of times while in the stadium, he saw Eli lead Ole Miss down the field to win close games at the end.
I'll see that and raise you, remember when Allen, Rosen, Darnold and Mayfield were the consensus next big QB draft?
FWIW, I think just about any of the top 10 QBs will do better than Jones.
What I have found is that there are a few QBs who come along who have achieved and maintained excellence and are universally acknowledged as franchise QBs.
It is fortunate that this year there are two QBs who fit this description.Both would be a first three draft pick in any year.
I would not subscribe to tanking if not for Williams and Maye. They change the dynamics. The last QB who had this type of fanfare was Lawrence and you can see what he has done for Jacksonville.
With the potential position in the draft the Giants will have and with the quality of some of the QB's coming out it seems a good decision to take a QB.
The whole coaching staff should be part of the evaluation for the remainder of the season to make sure the right people are part of this decision imv.
Ernie sure nailed his evaluation of Eli. Two big points he made sure played out.
1. He takes hits and keeps getting up.
2. The "It" factor.
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.
Not at all what I am implying. You can EASILY make things worst by tanking as some here advocate every year.
What can happen as a result of tanking that hasn't already happened in this 10+ year run of "you can compete and rebuild at the same time" which has accomplished neither?
Quote:
In comment 16289697 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
.
Not at all what I am implying. You can EASILY make things worst by tanking as some here advocate every year.
What can happen as a result of tanking that hasn't already happened in this 10+ year run of "you can compete and rebuild at the same time" which has accomplished neither?
Exactly. The Giants have one of the worst records in the NFL since 2016, and they’ve been trying.
The arguments for rolling with DJ have gone from absurd to certifiable.
In was going to say the same thing
Yep and you can do Brad Johnson (free agent signing), Trend Dilfer (free agent signing), etc. etc..... tanking tanks franchises....
What round was Trent Dilfer drafted in again?
Quote:
Yep and you can do Brad Johnson (free agent signing), Trend Dilfer (free agent signing), etc. etc..... tanking tanks franchises....
What round was Trent Dilfer drafted in again?
LOL.
"Trying is the first step to failure."
Has a narrative to push. OP is one of a couple posters who have been in perpetual meltdown mode since Jones' knee injury
+1
There is not a single poster on this site that doesn't understand the risks involved with drafting a QB in the top 5 but they almost all support it because of the impressive talent that is in this years draft. What's the topic of your next thread going to be, water is wet?
They will draft a QB, as they should. But the point is accurate. Even drafting one of the top QBs this year, the odds are still incredibly long that we end up with an actual top-shelf franchise QB.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
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We’re chosen mid to late first round so that list is misleading. This is ridiculous to suggest they shouldn’t draft a QB because there have been many busts before. What do you suggest they do at QB then?
They will draft a QB, as they should. But the point is accurate. Even drafting one of the top QBs this year, the odds are still incredibly long that we end up with an actual top-shelf franchise QB.
Of course the odds are long, but they are longer if you take a QB later in the draft.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
Have Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes not taught us this lesson enough already?
I like Daniel Jones and wanted him to succeed here in the worst way. It hasn't worked out so far.
The Giants now have the opportunity to get a top level QB prospect, one that does not come along every year. They have no choice but to take the one they feel is the best...whether that be Williams, Maye, or Daniels.
It's time for Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll to put their reputations on the line.
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The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
He responded when he was put in an offense that was built to hide his biggest flaw - decision making. He was put in more situations to get rid of the ball quickly. That helped. It did not turn him into a functional NFL starter.
I think Schoen and Daboll saw enough to think he can run their offense competently until they could find someone else. That is why there was a two year out in his contract.
Sometimes you are stuck with a guy who isn't very good because you don't have the resource/options to get better. I think that was why they gave him the contract they did. I don't think either of them ever said "this is our guy" or they would not have been looking to move on from him in two years.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
This.
If we draft a QB, if we're not feeling really good about him by the end of year two we should be open to trading him, drafting another quarterback, anything.
Two seasons. That's the length of the scholarship.
If the guy doesn’t pan out, we will be looking at new management in a few years. If he’s the guy, the trajectory is up and this season will be in the rear BBI we mirror.
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The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
I agree that Jones responded well to Daboll’s coaching, but that was because Daboll micromanaged him. He simplified the offense to a lot of one read RPO, used Barkley as a decoy to allow Jones to use his one outstanding trait - his speed - to create plays.
People like to point to the Philly playoff game as when teams caught on to what Daboll was doing, but let’s not forget they went 3-6-1 after the 6-1 start, so I would argue that teams had already started to figure it out. That the 31st ranked pass defense in the league couldn’t shouldn’t obscure that fact.
I firmly believe that Schoen and Daboll knew what they had in Jones, a game manager able to win games by playing ball control with a decent defense. Once teams figured out keeping Jones in the pocket and taking away his short routes, he struggled. Daboll and Schoen watch tape, they knew this, which is why they structured his contract with an out after 2 years. If they really believed in him, they would have locked him up longer than that.
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In comment 16289834 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
He responded when he was put in an offense that was built to hide his biggest flaw - decision making. He was put in more situations to get rid of the ball quickly. That helped. It did not turn him into a functional NFL starter.
I think Schoen and Daboll saw enough to think he can run their offense competently until they could find someone else. That is why there was a two year out in his contract.
Sometimes you are stuck with a guy who isn't very good because you don't have the resource/options to get better. I think that was why they gave him the contract they did. I don't think either of them ever said "this is our guy" or they would not have been looking to move on from him in two years.
That seems reasonable and is why they structured the contract like they did. That was my initial thought. If he improves, great they ave a QB for midlevel money. If he doesn't, draft new and offload Jones. Unfortunately besides digression the injury occured and the additional $25 mill comes into play.
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
From the look of things, it appears Daboll asked him to run a less stripped-down offense than they ran last year and a combination of Jones lack of processing speed and a poor OL proved to be too much.
I think what people miss in defending Jones based on his best games is that nobody says he cannot drop back and make throws when everything works as expected. If it was a simple as making a pre-snap read, having that read be correct, and having an open target when you hit your drop, Jones would be absolutely fine. When you play bad defenses, that tends to happen more often, and if you look at the best games of Jones's career, they are most often against really bad defenses who don't pressure QBs. The MIN-IND-MIN stretch that everybody fell in love with - those are legitimately terrible defensive teams.
The problem is, that very rarely happens when you face good teams, and his ability to do anything off script other than run is limited - and his biggest strength with his legs isn't even navigating the pocket with footwork, it's straight line speed.
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In comment 16289834 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
I agree that Jones responded well to Daboll’s coaching, but that was because Daboll micromanaged him. He simplified the offense to a lot of one read RPO, used Barkley as a decoy to allow Jones to use his one outstanding trait - his speed - to create plays.
People like to point to the Philly playoff game as when teams caught on to what Daboll was doing, but let’s not forget they went 3-6-1 after the 6-1 start, so I would argue that teams had already started to figure it out. That the 31st ranked pass defense in the league couldn’t shouldn’t obscure that fact.
I firmly believe that Schoen and Daboll knew what they had in Jones, a game manager able to win games by playing ball control with a decent defense. Once teams figured out keeping Jones in the pocket and taking away his short routes, he struggled. Daboll and Schoen watch tape, they knew this, which is why they structured his contract with an out after 2 years. If they really believed in him, they would have locked him up longer than that.
I would say the Lions figured it out as that was his 1st really bad game.
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In comment 16289853 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16289834 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
I agree that Jones responded well to Daboll’s coaching, but that was because Daboll micromanaged him. He simplified the offense to a lot of one read RPO, used Barkley as a decoy to allow Jones to use his one outstanding trait - his speed - to create plays.
People like to point to the Philly playoff game as when teams caught on to what Daboll was doing, but let’s not forget they went 3-6-1 after the 6-1 start, so I would argue that teams had already started to figure it out. That the 31st ranked pass defense in the league couldn’t shouldn’t obscure that fact.
I firmly believe that Schoen and Daboll knew what they had in Jones, a game manager able to win games by playing ball control with a decent defense. Once teams figured out keeping Jones in the pocket and taking away his short routes, he struggled. Daboll and Schoen watch tape, they knew this, which is why they structured his contract with an out after 2 years. If they really believed in him, they would have locked him up longer than that.
I would say the Lions figured it out as that was his 1st really bad game.
I agree with that.
I don’t think the Giants are tanking. They have a 3rd string QB, have lost a couple of games they could have won and the season has slipped away. It will be hard to win moving forward, but the coaches and players will play to win; they’re auditioning for their jobs next year.
We are going to draft a QB next year and it will be a high pick. There is no doubt in my mind of this. Those wishing for a SPECIFIC guy might want to be careful…let Joe and Brian make their pick, they will live and die by it. Personally, Williams scares me, I prefer Maye and Daniels.
Have Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes not taught us this lesson enough already?
The only time Mahomes' postseason ended in a loss was to Brady. Sure the OL sucked, but Brady's pedigree helped stabilize the playing field (i.e. refs).
Otherwise it ends with Mahomes winning it (so far).
Unless you are a dynasty with a great QB - like Pats, Chiefs, etc - the mood of one season doesn't carry over to the next. There is too much turnover for EVERY team, too many coaching changes, injuries, etc.
The Giants are a perfect example. We had a winning season last year and a playoff win. There were expectations to improve on last year and be in the hunt.
Well, ten minutes into the season at home against a division rival, the season - yes, the season - unraveled. Completely.
Embrace tanking. It's exactly what this hideous organization needs.
If they lose and get to the very top of the draft, no problem here. If they ‘tank’ on purpose and get to the very top of the draft - I think that’s a mistake. You play to win the game - that’s the only way to play, coach, and manage IMO.
I didn't want Manning in that draft, he scared the hell out of me... lol. I saw him as a less athletic version of who we already had. Now I'd give just about anything in the World to have him back.
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any of those guys. The only QB I really wished for was Eli Manning. Guess I should be the GM.
I didn't want Manning in that draft, he scared the hell out of me... lol. I saw him as a less athletic version of who we already had. Now I'd give just about anything in the World to have him back.
I wanted Eli if he fell to them. I didn't want Rivers. So, if Eli wasn't there, and he wasn't, I wanted the NYG to trade back a few spots to 6-8 and pick Big Ben plus a high draft pick. I seem to recall other teams were interested.
The QB many here wanted in the 2018 draft was Josh Rosen. And in the 2019 draft was Dwayne Haskins. But you won't get most to admit it and say Jones showed more promised his rookie year than either Haskins or Rosen did in their careers.
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there's a bunch in your list that everyone knew weren't likely to be pro-bowlers.
The QB many here wanted in the 2018 draft was Josh Rosen. And in the 2019 draft was Dwayne Haskins. But you won't get most to admit it and say Jones showed more promised his rookie year than either Haskins or Rosen did in their careers.
Rosen was FAR from the most desired QB in 2018 (there was a very vocal but small group of posters who repeated their Rosen adoration on multiple threads - things like "how Rosen's tennis background will make him elite" and other such nonsense), and Haskins was widely criticized on here in 2019.
Even if you're correct (but you're not), there's no fucking pride to be had in DJ being the best of that lot. But it's emblematic of the sort of comparisons that are needed if the goal is to demonstrate the level of QB that DJ is better than.
Grade: 89
Strong Points
-Knows and understands the game inside and out, very intelligent on the field
-Advanced footwork and release, consistent mechanics
-Excels at passes within the intermediate range
Weak Points:
-Deep ball accuracy is inconsistent
-Slight frame plus concussion issues plus tennis background causes for some durability concern
-Doesn’t pose much of a threat as a passer on the move
Summary:
Ezoic
Junior entry. Has had the look of a pro passer since his freshman season. The 3 year career at UCLA didn’t pan out the way many were hoping for, but it can’t be pinned on him. His supporting cast was dreadful. The pass catchers dropped more balls than any of the other QBs in this top-of-the-draft discussion, there was no running game to lean on, and the offensive line was very leaky up the middle. With all of that, Rosen still threw for 9,342 yards and 59 touchdowns. One red flag, however, is that he missed 8 games over the past 2 years with various injuries. And another nugget here is that more teams are fearful of his knees not holding up, as that is a consistent occurrence with tennis players when they get in to their late 20’s-early 30’s. Rosen was a big time tennis player in his teen years, so it is something to consider.
Here is something I am confident can be put to bed. Rosen is not a character risk. He is not going to be an issue with the media, he is not going to be a problem with the coaches and players. He is not going to be a problem socially. This kid knows more about football than a lot of current professionals. He studies it hard, practices hard, and was head and shoulders on another level than his teammates mentally and physically. If you could guarantee be Rosen can stay on the field, his grade would be 90+, elite. NYG could be the perfect spot for him as it will allow him to add bulk to his frame for a year or two, use his intelligence to pick up the schemes and tendencies of the NFL, and be ready to rock in 2019 or 2020. During that time, you let Davis Webb handle backup duties and if he proves to be a solid player, you have a very good problem on your hands, one that several teams will pay up for.
But, it's the most important position in the NFL and you need to keep swinging.
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there's a bunch in your list that everyone knew weren't likely to be pro-bowlers.
The QB many here wanted in the 2018 draft was Josh Rosen. And in the 2019 draft was Dwayne Haskins. But you won't get most to admit it and say Jones showed more promised his rookie year than either Haskins or Rosen did in their careers.
I thought Rosen was the best QB in a weak QB class, but I wanted nothing to do with Haskins. That said, I didn’t want NYG to take Rosen at 2, if they wanted him, trade back and accrue some picks.
And sure, Jones was much better than those 2, but so what? He still isn’t good enough, and that’s the point.
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In comment 16290633 xtian said:
Quote:
there's a bunch in your list that everyone knew weren't likely to be pro-bowlers.
The QB many here wanted in the 2018 draft was Josh Rosen. And in the 2019 draft was Dwayne Haskins. But you won't get most to admit it and say Jones showed more promised his rookie year than either Haskins or Rosen did in their careers.
I thought Rosen was the best QB in a weak QB class, but I wanted nothing to do with Haskins. That said, I didn’t want NYG to take Rosen at 2, if they wanted him, trade back and accrue some picks.
And sure, Jones was much better than those 2, but so what? He still isn’t good enough, and that’s the point.
Tallest midget....
Rosen had character concerns, IIRC. I was a Rosen guy to some extent because I didn't like the others.
Many times here, posters who really follow players in CFB will warn us about players with character concerns. Rosen was one, Eli Apple, (Marvin Austin?)...there are others that at the moment I do not remember. Had BBI been around I am sure that Ryan Leaf would have been one and he was really pushing Manning for that #1 draft pick.
Brings me to Caleb Williams. Does he really have issues that could flair up once on a roster. Talented QB, probably the top guy. But the wanting a piece of the team, crying on the bench with his mom, calling out fans....???? Does this scream watch out?
They absolutely need to draft a QB. They cannot screw this up. Is drafting Williams a liability waiting to happen or are his "issues" overblown?
Grade: 89
Strong Points
-Knows and understands the game inside and out, very intelligent on the field
-Advanced footwork and release, consistent mechanics
-Excels at passes within the intermediate range
Weak Points:
-Deep ball accuracy is inconsistent
-Slight frame plus concussion issues plus tennis background causes for some durability concern
-Doesn’t pose much of a threat as a passer on the move
Summary:
Ezoic
Junior entry. Has had the look of a pro passer since his freshman season. The 3 year career at UCLA didn’t pan out the way many were hoping for, but it can’t be pinned on him. His supporting cast was dreadful. The pass catchers dropped more balls than any of the other QBs in this top-of-the-draft discussion, there was no running game to lean on, and the offensive line was very leaky up the middle. With all of that, Rosen still threw for 9,342 yards and 59 touchdowns. One red flag, however, is that he missed 8 games over the past 2 years with various injuries. And another nugget here is that more teams are fearful of his knees not holding up, as that is a consistent occurrence with tennis players when they get in to their late 20’s-early 30’s. Rosen was a big time tennis player in his teen years, so it is something to consider.
Here is something I am confident can be put to bed. Rosen is not a character risk. He is not going to be an issue with the media, he is not going to be a problem with the coaches and players. He is not going to be a problem socially. This kid knows more about football than a lot of current professionals. He studies it hard, practices hard, and was head and shoulders on another level than his teammates mentally and physically. If you could guarantee be Rosen can stay on the field, his grade would be 90+, elite. NYG could be the perfect spot for him as it will allow him to add bulk to his frame for a year or two, use his intelligence to pick up the schemes and tendencies of the NFL, and be ready to rock in 2019 or 2020. During that time, you let Davis Webb handle backup duties and if he proves to be a solid player, you have a very good problem on your hands, one that several teams will pay up for.
Now do Daniel Jones and Malik Willis.
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In comment 16289834 Mike from Ohio said:
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The sin is not in picking the wrong guy - that happens. The sin is staying with him for 5 years and giving him a second contract.
This team needs to be more self-critical with their own players and move on more quickly from mistakes. Every franchise will have guys bust. How you handle that is what separates the good from the bad.
Mike, unfortunately Jones responded very well to Daboll and obviously made a positive impression on Schoen too.
It is easy for us to sit here now and see last year was an absolute mirage. The guy has had ups and downs(more of them)through his career and when given solid coaching appeared to make steady improvement including a playoff win. Yet, the clue should have been the Eagle game(I turned off mid 2nd quarter).
What I would truly like to know is how the hell(aside from one half) could Jones have crapped the bed so badly? It is not like he doesn't put the time in. Yes the slow processing is evident, but even with that he should still should have been able to look somewhat competent. This is the worst he has ever looked.
But it is also clearly evident it is time to move on. I almost do not care who they draft next year to be QB. That person will be a huge upgrade.
He responded when he was put in an offense that was built to hide his biggest flaw - decision making. He was put in more situations to get rid of the ball quickly. That helped. It did not turn him into a functional NFL starter.
I think Schoen and Daboll saw enough to think he can run their offense competently until they could find someone else. That is why there was a two year out in his contract.
Sometimes you are stuck with a guy who isn't very good because you don't have the resource/options to get better. I think that was why they gave him the contract they did. I don't think either of them ever said "this is our guy" or they would not have been looking to move on from him in two years.
The problem with that is, if they thought that he was not the guy, they would have signed a stopgap like Mayfield for a lot less than Jones was asking and sent him on his way. And if somehow Mara was forcing them to resign Jones, then they'd make their case (since their jobs are now in peril thanks to keeping him anyway).
They signed him because they were cautiously optimistic, not because he was a stopgap.
There is not a single poster on this site that doesn't understand the risks involved with drafting a QB in the top 5 but they almost all support it because of the impressive talent that is in this years draft. What's the topic of your next thread going to be, water is wet?
I'll type it slowly for you....
Many on this board every year seem to think "tanking" is the right thing to do. Rarely does anyone talk specifically about how tanking to get a QB or drafting early every year has literally ZERO effect in the long term.
Even drafting early has little to do with a team's success. The good teams usually stay good and the bad teams usually stay bad.
If you disagree, give me data to back your opinion as I have done...
Nope. The worst case in your scenario is you draft another bust and you let Marvin Harrison Jr go somewhere else...
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You discuss how there have been many QB busts in the NFL draft over the past three decades. This could be said with every position. Besides QB the biggest need on the Giants is probably RT and the Giants just used the 7th overall pick on Evan Neal less than two years ago. Neal was considered the safest OT in the draft at the time and was expected to go before the Giants picked at 7.
There is not a single poster on this site that doesn't understand the risks involved with drafting a QB in the top 5 but they almost all support it because of the impressive talent that is in this years draft. What's the topic of your next thread going to be, water is wet?
I'll type it slowly for you....
Many on this board every year seem to think "tanking" is the right thing to do. Rarely does anyone talk specifically about how tanking to get a QB or drafting early every year has literally ZERO effect in the long term.
Even drafting early has little to do with a team's success. The good teams usually stay good and the bad teams usually stay bad.
If you disagree, give me data to back your opinion as I have done...
Colts, Pats, Saints, Broncos and Packers stayed good?
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and he reclaims the mantle of Franchise QB, there is no logical reason to pass on a highly regarded QB prospect at the top of the draft next year. QB is the most important position on the team and it is the hardest position to fill in the NFL b/c there simply are not enough quality QBs to go around. At worst the Giants will end up with a high quality backup (or 2 if they keep Tyrod) which is going to be valuable asset regardless of whatever statistical rate of success/failure you apply to drafting QBs in the fist round.
Nope. The worst case in your scenario is you draft another bust and you let Marvin Harrison Jr go somewhere else...
Not having an elite WR is nothing new here. You can win without them. Nice to have, to be sure, but they'll win nothing with a less-than at QB and a great WR.
I just watched Lawrence Cager and Darnay Holmes celebrate individual plays down 3+ scores. I'm seeing the organization put on a full court press in the media to convince the public to run it back with a shitty QB for a sixth time.
This is a team that can't get through a game without making some of the stupidest mistakes you'll ever see.
Why would we want to preserve this culture?
Nothing has been built here in terms of culture.
Tell me what culture was gained by a winning season last year? How has that carried over or helped navigate hard times this year?
Culture's a thing fans talk about to justify their opinions of losing more games. The 'culture' in San Francisco or Kansas City is having the correct amount of special talent and good coaching.
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In comment 16289930 kdog77 said:
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and he reclaims the mantle of Franchise QB, there is no logical reason to pass on a highly regarded QB prospect at the top of the draft next year. QB is the most important position on the team and it is the hardest position to fill in the NFL b/c there simply are not enough quality QBs to go around. At worst the Giants will end up with a high quality backup (or 2 if they keep Tyrod) which is going to be valuable asset regardless of whatever statistical rate of success/failure you apply to drafting QBs in the fist round.
Nope. The worst case in your scenario is you draft another bust and you let Marvin Harrison Jr go somewhere else...
Not having an elite WR is nothing new here. You can win without them. Nice to have, to be sure, but they'll win nothing with a less-than at QB and a great WR.
On his weekly spot on TMKS Toomer was asked point blank if the Giants should take MHJ instead of a QB. AT replied that a high end WR is a luxury you add after all the other pieces are in place, and that was not the Giants situation.
Also when asked about trading back, he heavily implied that with DJs neck injuries they can't trust him to be their QB for the next 5-10 years.