It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
You think Schoen should have a shorter leash than Gettleman?
I think he should have another year to get this program back on track. We can walk through what that means, but he needs to feel pressure.
And that's because the difference between last year and this year is so profound that you have to question everyone who was making final decisions for this product.
RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
Basically said that Wink isn't adapting to the personnel, which has been his history. It's Wink's system and he doesn't stray much from it. He speculated that Daboll was upset that Wink was still going man late in the Dallas game after the injuries had piled up.
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
This attitude of we do what we do regardless of whose in there is a failed process.
When quarterbacks get those type of mismatches they get rid of the ball so quickly there can be no pass rush
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I didn’t expect to be reading that Wink might be gone, but that’s good by me
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
I would add one thing to it (relevant for next year or whatever year they need to make changes).
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Get better players and the defense will be better. Giants haven't had a consistent pass rush in about 10 years. I mean honestly - when was the last time the DL was a force?
They worked on secondary and LBs. They have to add edge guys that can hunt or else the defense will continue to be pretty average.
Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
This basically. What value does he bring if we're cleaning house anyway?
RE: RE: RE: This team needs a plan it can stick to
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
Chris Mara didn't promote himself until 2012. What happened to the player personnel afterward?
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So we had a guy who came in here with this plan and tried to follow it. His name was Joe Judge.
RE: RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
Do you not think his Defenses in Baltimore would qualify?
Didnt you think last year our D was fantastic until injuries hit???
That was with LBs which couldn't tackle,let me say that again.
Our LBs couldn't tackle and we were competitve!!
This year our D kept us in numerous games...
What makes you feel he isn't the guy for us?
Personally I felt we were fortunate to get him...and even gladererer that noone signed him away from us this offseason.
Everyone should be on notice, I'm sick of reading about people "deserving" more time.
With that said, I'm a little surprised at this.
1. We have had some really good games with Wink.
2. We have seen real player development under Wink.
3. I find the defense hard to judge with the offenses constant 3 and outs. They're on the field nonstop. A better offense might give them a breather and allow them to execute better.
But what is funny about it is we hired a Special Teams Guy,and got him experienced Coordinators when we got Judge
Garrett...
That didn't work out so well did it?
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
I did, well done. I should have realized no one could really write what you wrote and think it true
But I stand by my previous take that Daniel was the key cog in leading the team to the playoffs and winning there
Those are the results on the field I m thinking off and why signing him was the correct move
I would add one thing to it (relevant for next year or whatever year they need to make changes).
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Are you kidding me? The GM is the HC's boss. Back in George Young's day he took players with little regard for Parcells - that is not right. I agree.
Nowadays they work together to pick the players but still it is the GM that has the final word I believe.
Not always. Reid runs the show in KC. Shanahan runs the show in SF. Belichick does although it's been a struggle lately there.
Different issue all together. In those case they are the real GM. There might be a person with a title on those teams, but Reid, Belichick and Shanahan are the real GMs.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
It's a lot easier to say the solution is poor coaching then to say
Harder to fix a shitty 53 man roster than change a few coaches.
Our o line has been shit for 10+ years and we have had multiple o line coaches. So has changing the coach worked?
Jones has been mediocre at best under multiple coaches. Has changing the coaches worked?
I am not saying we have good coaches but changing coaches is not going to fix a shitty roster. On defense we have three above average players Dex, and the two inside backers and the rest are average at best.
On offense we have Thomas and Barkley as above average players.
So out of our 22 starters we have 5 above average players. I don't care who the coaches are, you are not winning many games having only 5 above average players.
We are a terrible drafting team and until we draft much better we will not improve.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I don't think I'm overthinking it, but I am trying to figure how this works.
So the GM is not the GM but a personnel manager. Basically, you shitcan Schoen, and keep Brandon Brown to do contracts and administration.
Then the HC becomes, HC and VP of football operations.
Then who does the HC and VP of football Ops answer to, the owner?
The GM still negotiates contracts and makes trades. That doesn’t change. It is simply a change in who is guiding the direction of the team. The VP of Football Operations job does not change as well. The coach reports to him and is managed/hired/fired by that person.
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I would view this like the current college structure where the director of recruiting and director of operations report to the HC.
In that case, the HC has final say on all personnel decisions.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
Makes sense, but then what about Shoen? They came in like a team, shouldn
t he go then?
Defense was getting better except for last two games. Coincidentally we let Leo Williams go 2 games ago. Giants need upgrade On BL and edge. Youngster secondary will be fine.
The GM still negotiates contracts and makes trades. That doesn’t change. It is simply a change in who is guiding the direction of the team. The VP of Football Operations job does not change as well. The coach reports to him and is managed/hired/fired by that person.
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
On the Giants, Schoen is the VP of Football Ops as well as GM... I suspect that many teams this is the set up.
I see what is being said and it has merit. But who is hiring the HC? And then the HC goes out and hires what is essentially a Player Personell manager.
But teams would need to change their entire structures. What happens if a HC wants to bring in a player with a terrible moral background(but a really, really good player - a Joe Mixon type) ? Or a Vontez Burfict? Who says no? Do you really want an owner involved that much?
RE: RE: RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
If we can’t get to the QB via Edge or blitz, his D will be shot. I’ve seen a lot of that this year. I don’t think another DC could do much better. That said, I think we have to do better against the run and then pressure the QB. Ojulari seems like a lost cause and KT can only do so much. He’s not LT! We need another Edge rusher that is reliable and can consistently get home. Those guys are not easy to find though and may require a trade up in the draft. Further exacerbating the issue is the need for a QB!
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
I would argue that John Fox was the best
I'm not sure I'm comfortable hitting the reset button less than 1.5 years in on the defense.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
Quote:
asking why keeping Schoen is a good idea.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
You think Schoen should have a shorter leash than Gettleman?
I think he should have another year to get this program back on track. We can walk through what that means, but he needs to feel pressure.
And that's because the difference between last year and this year is so profound that you have to question everyone who was making final decisions for this product.
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
This attitude of we do what we do regardless of whose in there is a failed process.
When quarterbacks get those type of mismatches they get rid of the ball so quickly there can be no pass rush
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I didn’t expect to be reading that Wink might be gone, but that’s good by me
Quote:
Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
Quote:
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
They worked on secondary and LBs. They have to add edge guys that can hunt or else the defense will continue to be pretty average.
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Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
This basically. What value does he bring if we're cleaning house anyway?
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In comment 16291544 Go Terps said:
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It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
Chris Mara didn't promote himself until 2012. What happened to the player personnel afterward?
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So we had a guy who came in here with this plan and tried to follow it. His name was Joe Judge.
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
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In comment 16291361 joeinpa said:
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Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
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No, he is not
Do you not think his Defenses in Baltimore would qualify?
Didnt you think last year our D was fantastic until injuries hit???
That was with LBs which couldn't tackle,let me say that again.
Our LBs couldn't tackle and we were competitve!!
This year our D kept us in numerous games...
What makes you feel he isn't the guy for us?
Personally I felt we were fortunate to get him...and even gladererer that noone signed him away from us this offseason.
Everyone has fucked up.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
So it's 2 and out until someone wins?
With that said, I'm a little surprised at this.
1. We have had some really good games with Wink.
2. We have seen real player development under Wink.
3. I find the defense hard to judge with the offenses constant 3 and outs. They're on the field nonstop. A better offense might give them a breather and allow them to execute better.
Garrett...
That didn't work out so well did it?
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In comment 16291425 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16291361 joeinpa said:
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Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
I did, well done. I should have realized no one could really write what you wrote and think it true
But I stand by my previous take that Daniel was the key cog in leading the team to the playoffs and winning there
Those are the results on the field I m thinking off and why signing him was the correct move
But the Giants might have broken him.
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asking why keeping Schoen is a good idea.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
So it's 2 and out until someone wins?
No. I think three years should be enough to determine if the right foundation is in place.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Graham literally out coached Wink 2 weeks ago and we won a Superbowl with Fewell. What's Wink given us exactly?
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Who's been a better DC for the Giants? Spags. That's it.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Graham literally out coached Wink 2 weeks ago and we won a Superbowl with Fewell. What's Wink given us exactly?
This comment comes off as unserious. What were your expectations in 2022?
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Are you kidding me? The GM is the HC's boss. Back in George Young's day he took players with little regard for Parcells - that is not right. I agree.
Nowadays they work together to pick the players but still it is the GM that has the final word I believe.
That was fast.
Different issue all together. In those case they are the real GM. There might be a person with a title on those teams, but Reid, Belichick and Shanahan are the real GMs.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
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I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
Harder to fix a shitty 53 man roster than change a few coaches.
Our o line has been shit for 10+ years and we have had multiple o line coaches. So has changing the coach worked?
Jones has been mediocre at best under multiple coaches. Has changing the coaches worked?
I am not saying we have good coaches but changing coaches is not going to fix a shitty roster. On defense we have three above average players Dex, and the two inside backers and the rest are average at best.
On offense we have Thomas and Barkley as above average players.
So out of our 22 starters we have 5 above average players. I don't care who the coaches are, you are not winning many games having only 5 above average players.
We are a terrible drafting team and until we draft much better we will not improve.
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In comment 16291780 Mike from Ohio said:
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I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I don't think I'm overthinking it, but I am trying to figure how this works.
So the GM is not the GM but a personnel manager. Basically, you shitcan Schoen, and keep Brandon Brown to do contracts and administration.
Then the HC becomes, HC and VP of football operations.
Then who does the HC and VP of football Ops answer to, the owner?
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I would view this like the current college structure where the director of recruiting and director of operations report to the HC.
In that case, the HC has final say on all personnel decisions.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
t he go then?
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
On the Giants, Schoen is the VP of Football Ops as well as GM... I suspect that many teams this is the set up.
I see what is being said and it has merit. But who is hiring the HC? And then the HC goes out and hires what is essentially a Player Personell manager.
But teams would need to change their entire structures. What happens if a HC wants to bring in a player with a terrible moral background(but a really, really good player - a Joe Mixon type) ? Or a Vontez Burfict? Who says no? Do you really want an owner involved that much?
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I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
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However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
well said GD
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In comment 16291597 joeinpa said:
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I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I appreciate the adult conversation.