His defense had very little to do with the 40-0 fiasco as 14 of those pints were quick and had nothing to do with his unit. They had tackling issues which I put on the players, not the coordinator. His unit was the only one to show up during the small part of the season that mattered and they were playing well when they traded one of his unit’s leaders and best players.
Kafka or really anyone in the offensive or special teams staffs would not surprise me. Johnson and McGaughey should be out 100%.
We need to be better on defense. Wink isn't terrible and I am sure the Giants could hire a shittier DC, knowing them they will, but Wink isn't exactly inspiring.
No development in the QB and passing game. A comedy of errors
within the OL unit. A disasterous showing by most of the Special Teams. None of those areas were even close to being ready to play when the season started.
Not suggesting that the Defense doesn't have its issues but if Wink is shown the door, he better be walking out with a bunch of other NYG coaches too.
"Daboll needs to keep games competitive or he might be in trouble"
"Kafka and Wink may be replaced"
"The team still believes in Jones"
"The Giants will draft a QB"
It'll be non stop. Daboll will have his hands full. It'll be fascinating to see how Schoen handles the question in two weeks.
Schoen speaking over the BYE week is now the most important thing that happens football wise until the season is over. Obviously he’ll keep things relatively close to the best but we should be able to take away certain things based on what he does say.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
eventhough Eric points out the Wink said it would take time to get the defense together, 6 weeks was far too long - shitty summer camp system or not. They have pretty good pieces and should be playing far better than they are. There are good players on the D, a lot of them.
But Wink is not 1st on my list to be axed.
McGaughey has had one, maybe two, decent years, none recently, as STC. ST have been a disaster. Needs to be replaced.
Kafka - he is just awful at calling a game. How many times did the offense start moving(two years) and he calls some stupid backward play that loses yardage and kills the drive. Even the tush push has been a disaster. He does not seem to have a feel for the game. I think he designs excellent plays, but there is just a disconnect between him and the field.
Bobby Johnson - sorry, Evan Neal's development has been brutal as has been Ezeudu and Bredesen. These guys may not be pro bowlers but they are also not dog meat. Aside from AT, what Giants' lineman has performed at near average level? They bring in Pugh out of deperation and he looks like a revelation. WTF? You watch Pugh play and he picks up stunts with aplomb and knows how the leverage his opponent. He is undersized, not very strong but he is still the best OL after Thomas. Get someone in here before they eff up Schmitz too.
have been better for Mara to stay quiet on the cycling HC's comment.
Daboll better wind up being a great HC. If you are firing both coordinators (and maybe the third one as well) with potentially one position coach (OL) then you better justify all these coaches were the problem and not the one who hired them.
Agree, it will be very interesting to hear what JS has to say during the bye.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
Because as Daboll grows as a HC, he gets to see what works and what doesn't. He brought in people he thought would be good and is finding out the job is not being done.
The firing of a coordinator is usually a life preserver of a head coach. It can work (Coughlin & Spagnuolo), Coughlin was in a make or break season. If it doesn't work, the head coach being fired usually happens shortly after. Judge firing Garrett was a last ditch effort on his part.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
The performance in Buffalo is looking less and less impressive as the Bills season progresses, and it's only thanks to an atrocious offense that the defense hasn't been more scrutinized.
The defense was the only thing keeping them in some of the early games
The firing of a coordinator is usually a life preserver of a head coach. It can work (Coughlin & Spagnuolo), Coughlin was in a make or break season. If it doesn't work, the head coach being fired usually happens shortly after. Judge firing Garrett was a last ditch effort on his part.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
Do you think Kafka is worth keeping? I may be wrong, but I have not been a fan of his either year. As to a new OC, Tierney is more important to the new QB than Kafka, unless Tierney is elevated to OC - but with Dorsey free.....
A new QB will be in trouble unless they fix the oline. We sound like broken records on that point, but it is true.
Is too hit or miss for my liking. If the pressure he is sending doesn’t get home, the back half of the defense gets roasted. Unless he has either an elite pass rush or elite corners, his defense struggles mightily. We don’t have either so it just doesn’t work.
shit on the wall anymore. Maybe Wink will be back, maybe he won't. But Tony Pauline certainly doesn't know anything...
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
shit on the wall anymore. Maybe Wink will be back, maybe he won't. But Tony Pauline certainly doesn't know anything...
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
And social media where everything is shared without consideration of source. Sigh.
shit on the wall anymore. Maybe Wink will be back, maybe he won't. But Tony Pauline certainly doesn't know anything...
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
And social media where everything is shared without consideration of source. Sigh.
Indeed. A recurring problem from what I understand.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
You cant not look at the HC who has repeatedly badly managed games during the year. Bad clock management, playing key players when injured or when a game is clearly lost. All of these imo are at least as bad as any errors Wink has made.
To be clear I am not advocating for Daboll to be sacked, just calling it as I see it.
RE: Wink and Kafka are both having pretty miserable seasons
Wink has had the defense, which was going to take a couple games to gel due to so many new bodies, and it did. They did enough to win against Buffalo. Enough in several other games.
Feel like it's unfair to compare his game this year and Kafka's side. There's been improvements and guys developing on defense. There's been zero on offense.
Only half joking. Wink is an OK d coordinator and probably better than what we’ve had in recent years, but he’s definitely not someone who’s irreplaceable.
The defense has been mostly solid up until the last 2 games. They trade Leo, things start going downhill. But if the offense was competent they probably win the Buffalo, Jets, and Seahawks games.
They’ve been accruing talent to fit winks system (Banks, Okereke, KT) while guys like Dex have taken their game to the next level…so it wouldn’t make sense to start fresh. Especially if it’s a massive scheme overhaul…
Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
Basically said that Wink isn't adapting to the personnel, which has been his history. It's Wink's system and he doesn't stray much from it. He speculated that Daboll was upset that Wink was still going man late in the Dallas game after the injuries had piled up.
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
Hasn’t impressed me one bit. They came out this year expecting to run the same bootleg PA plays. Defenses were ready for it. They were completely out coached
Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
but I keep going back to, this staff needed to open up the offense after last year and with the increase in weapons, and it looked so ugly because the OLine was not functional and the QB couldn't get through 1 read. Sure, there are several spots we can point to as bad playcalling, but I think the offenses ineptitude is shared by many, not just one person.
What sucks is that he's from Staten Island and was the giants' DB Coach for a season 5 years ago. We had him here and then he goes on to the Bengals and becomes an excellent DC there. Typical.
The defense is just as culpable as the offense this season with far LESS injury excuses.
The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field.
The defense was shredded last week. The defense provided very little resistance to the Cardinals for the entire first half. The Cards could have and quite frankly should have won that game.
The defense again, when it needed to stop someone late- Buffalo, could not do so. * don't tell me the offense couldn't score blah blah blah, because the Bills were in the same boat until late. One defense caved and one survived.
We have had very FEW game changing plays and cannot stop the run for shit.
Bad output this season or not, I don’t see how the defense is at or near the top of our problems.
They weren’t at fault in the Dallas game. The Arizona game makes a little more sense now seeing Dobbs continue the season he’s having in Minnesota.
The game I’ll pin most on Wink and the D was at Miami. Other than that they were fine until Leo was traded.
This is pure speculation but I wonder if there's more going on with Wink than just the on-field stuff.
Leonard Williams talked openly about how every DC has favorites and he wasn't Wink's favorite so the scheme didn't get him as many opportunities to decorate the stat sheet.
Xavier McKinney talked about Wink not listening to his players, which resulted in a oddly long response from Wink about it - that suggests to me that something about that feedback from X was either very very true, or very very false (and I suspect the former).
Someone on here claimed some asshat credentials a few months ago and made a vague reference to certain coaches blurring the line of authority with their players and treating some of them like pals instead of subordinates. I don't know how credible that poster's info is, but adding it here just as an effort to compile.
And then finally, the fact that Baltimore parted ways with Wink despite his unit performing as well as ever might be an indication that there was some other reason why they thought it was time to separate.
I'll fully acknowledge that there's a ton of speculation on my part there and I'm stringing things together to create a pattern that may not exist. But if there is something there, it could justify a decision to move on from Wink after this season.
What sucks is that he's from Staten Island and was the giants' DB Coach for a season 5 years ago. We had him here and then he goes on to the Bengals and becomes an excellent DC there. Typical.
He did, or was, an interview to be the coach here. I agree he has been great.
There are defenses loaded with talent and still struggling a bit. Niners to name. Steve Wilks is a better position coach than coordinator.
Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
Wink is overrated on BBI just like we overrated players on team
The firing of a coordinator is usually a life preserver of a head coach. It can work (Coughlin & Spagnuolo), Coughlin was in a make or break season. If it doesn't work, the head coach being fired usually happens shortly after. Judge firing Garrett was a last ditch effort on his part.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
and Coughlin also canned Hufnagel and made Gilbride OC
"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
The defense is just as culpable as the offense this season with far LESS injury excuses.
The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field.
The defense was shredded last week. The defense provided very little resistance to the Cardinals for the entire first half. The Cards could have and quite frankly should have won that game.
The defense again, when it needed to stop someone late- Buffalo, could not do so. * don't tell me the offense couldn't score blah blah blah, because the Bills were in the same boat until late. One defense caved and one survived.
We have had very FEW game changing plays and cannot stop the run for shit.
This defense needs to change..
Cmon this is absurd. Could have won the Jets game on their own? They gave up 3 points in the second half!
I imagine that was his call. Coughlin never wanted to fire Gilbride, I'm sure that was pushed on him. If Daboll wants to make the change, fine. If it's forced, no.
I imagine that was his call. Coughlin never wanted to fire Gilbride, I'm sure that was pushed on him. If Daboll wants to make the change, fine. If it's forced, no.
"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
They played lights out 99% of it. Blame Daboll and their bad offensive gameplan and decisions at the end.
"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
They played lights out 99% of it. Blame Daboll and their bad offensive gameplan and decisions at the end.
Me thinks Gano missing two FGs he makes 98 times out of 100 may have had the most to do with that loss.
square 1 again on defense considering the offense will likely require a complete overhaul.
The D started looking pretty strong right before the LW trade. They developed some young players, we also sunk a 1st rounder into getting Wink a CB to build around.
Revisit this when the offense is league average.
Going back a few years with the Ravens, Wink definitely had top
defenses, and it seems the Giants have gotten him the players he wanted …but things can change. Maybe the realization he’s not going to get a HC job took something out of him; or maybe he’s on a different philosophical page from Dabs … He’s 60 years old and has been coaching defenses for 37 years, it’s possible he’s burnt. I retired at the same age because I had nothing left in the tank.
Over-confidence/over-reliance in Tre Hawkins early on (that is on Daboll and Wink)
Drop in level of safety play (McKinney’s injury/attitude?, Loss of Julian Love?, Lack of development from Belton?)
Ojulari. Zero pass rush threat opposite a 2nd year player in Thibs. There was no depth at an oft injured position. This is on Schoen.
Okereke has really come on and turned into a bright spot, but he clearly needed a few games to acclimate. This to me is on Daboll and Wink. What were we doing this preseason and in training camp?
Then there was the bad tackling, most of which I put on the players at this level. McKinney was a huge culprit here. It feels like it took him a month before he hit someone instead of stripping at the ball other than when Dobbs trucked him.
The firing of a coordinator is usually a life preserver of a head coach. It can work (Coughlin & Spagnuolo), Coughlin was in a make or break season. If it doesn't work, the head coach being fired usually happens shortly after. Judge firing Garrett was a last ditch effort on his part.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
Wink has had the defense, which was going to take a couple games to gel due to so many new bodies, and it did. They did enough to win against Buffalo. Enough in several other games.
Feel like it's unfair to compare his game this year and Kafka's side. There's been improvements and guys developing on defense. There's been zero on offense.
The defense had a few solid games in the middle of the first half of the schedule, and had improved over the early start. But, they weren't against offensive juggernauts and now they're regressing plus injuries worsening, and for much of this season Wink's been getting outcoached, making some odd choices (presumably to protect his younger players), and there's been a number of head-scratching calls. I'm not in favor of letting him go unless it's determined it's the best course forward. But, he's had a difficult season so far.
I'd like to get away from the concept of a leash entirely
Rather than asking if someone has earned a firing I'd rather ask if someone is part of the solution. This team has a culture of scapegoating that is destructive.
RE: I'd like to get away from the concept of a leash entirely
Rather than asking if someone has earned a firing I'd rather ask if someone is part of the solution. This team has a culture of scapegoating that is destructive.
That's fair. This franchise probably needs Jim Harbaugh more than anything. An asshole who will run the show and keep everyone in check.
RE: I'd like to get away from the concept of a leash entirely
Rather than asking if someone has earned a firing I'd rather ask if someone is part of the solution. This team has a culture of scapegoating that is destructive.
Good concept. Go a bit more into detail. No need to write a thesis, a little broader overview, perhaps.
For instance, I think McGaughey is not part of the solution and neither is Johnson. Seeing little improvement in the development of the line in ANYONE leads me to believe something is amiss and the line coach is not part of the solution.
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
I don't think this is the offseason to go crazy with changes
We are going to pick our next QB, we know that already.
We need to fire Bobby Johnson for the total collapse of this offensive line to something sub-NFL level.
We should fire Thomas McGaughey for overseeing generally shitty ST units since he's been here.
We need to be looking at our medical staff and figure out what the hell we are doing there.
Personnel wise, we need to strengthen all areas of the passing game and affecting the opposing pass game. Specifically Edge and WR need to be addressed, as well as the swing Tackle position which should viewed as a capable potential starter given Neal's status.
Beyond this we have to hope Daboll and the rest of his staff can at least land somewhere closer to their 2022 performance and that this season had a kind of snowball effect once things got going wrong.
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Reasonable to me.
Brief take:
Pt 3 - I like reason to keep is forced on them by the players ability
Pt - 2.1 didn't work out so well previously, but I see the point.
I doubt Wink will be fired. The main reason is they’ve drafted Wink kind of players and consulted him on free agents as well. I think they still believe in his concepts and are looking for a few more pieces on defense.
Kafka, Johnson and our illustrious special teams coach should all be shit canned.
Hopefully it will happen.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
But you're suggesting that the organization fires them instead of BD doing it? It is HIS staff
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
You think Schoen should have a shorter leash than Gettleman?
I think he should have another year to get this program back on track. We can walk through what that means, but he needs to feel pressure.
And that's because the difference between last year and this year is so profound that you have to question everyone who was making final decisions for this product.
RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
Basically said that Wink isn't adapting to the personnel, which has been his history. It's Wink's system and he doesn't stray much from it. He speculated that Daboll was upset that Wink was still going man late in the Dallas game after the injuries had piled up.
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
This attitude of we do what we do regardless of whose in there is a failed process.
When quarterbacks get those type of mismatches they get rid of the ball so quickly there can be no pass rush
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I didn’t expect to be reading that Wink might be gone, but that’s good by me
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
I would add one thing to it (relevant for next year or whatever year they need to make changes).
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Get better players and the defense will be better. Giants haven't had a consistent pass rush in about 10 years. I mean honestly - when was the last time the DL was a force?
They worked on secondary and LBs. They have to add edge guys that can hunt or else the defense will continue to be pretty average.
Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
This basically. What value does he bring if we're cleaning house anyway?
RE: RE: RE: This team needs a plan it can stick to
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
Chris Mara didn't promote himself until 2012. What happened to the player personnel afterward?
It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So we had a guy who came in here with this plan and tried to follow it. His name was Joe Judge.
RE: RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
Do you not think his Defenses in Baltimore would qualify?
Didnt you think last year our D was fantastic until injuries hit???
That was with LBs which couldn't tackle,let me say that again.
Our LBs couldn't tackle and we were competitve!!
This year our D kept us in numerous games...
What makes you feel he isn't the guy for us?
Personally I felt we were fortunate to get him...and even gladererer that noone signed him away from us this offseason.
Everyone should be on notice, I'm sick of reading about people "deserving" more time.
With that said, I'm a little surprised at this.
1. We have had some really good games with Wink.
2. We have seen real player development under Wink.
3. I find the defense hard to judge with the offenses constant 3 and outs. They're on the field nonstop. A better offense might give them a breather and allow them to execute better.
But what is funny about it is we hired a Special Teams Guy,and got him experienced Coordinators when we got Judge
Garrett...
That didn't work out so well did it?
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
I did, well done. I should have realized no one could really write what you wrote and think it true
But I stand by my previous take that Daniel was the key cog in leading the team to the playoffs and winning there
Those are the results on the field I m thinking off and why signing him was the correct move
I would add one thing to it (relevant for next year or whatever year they need to make changes).
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Are you kidding me? The GM is the HC's boss. Back in George Young's day he took players with little regard for Parcells - that is not right. I agree.
Nowadays they work together to pick the players but still it is the GM that has the final word I believe.
Not always. Reid runs the show in KC. Shanahan runs the show in SF. Belichick does although it's been a struggle lately there.
Different issue all together. In those case they are the real GM. There might be a person with a title on those teams, but Reid, Belichick and Shanahan are the real GMs.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
It's a lot easier to say the solution is poor coaching then to say
Harder to fix a shitty 53 man roster than change a few coaches.
Our o line has been shit for 10+ years and we have had multiple o line coaches. So has changing the coach worked?
Jones has been mediocre at best under multiple coaches. Has changing the coaches worked?
I am not saying we have good coaches but changing coaches is not going to fix a shitty roster. On defense we have three above average players Dex, and the two inside backers and the rest are average at best.
On offense we have Thomas and Barkley as above average players.
So out of our 22 starters we have 5 above average players. I don't care who the coaches are, you are not winning many games having only 5 above average players.
We are a terrible drafting team and until we draft much better we will not improve.
I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I don't think I'm overthinking it, but I am trying to figure how this works.
So the GM is not the GM but a personnel manager. Basically, you shitcan Schoen, and keep Brandon Brown to do contracts and administration.
Then the HC becomes, HC and VP of football operations.
Then who does the HC and VP of football Ops answer to, the owner?
The GM still negotiates contracts and makes trades. That doesn’t change. It is simply a change in who is guiding the direction of the team. The VP of Football Operations job does not change as well. The coach reports to him and is managed/hired/fired by that person.
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I would view this like the current college structure where the director of recruiting and director of operations report to the HC.
In that case, the HC has final say on all personnel decisions.
Why even keep Daboll? I'm all for keeping Daboll, but I hate picking apart the staff and then the pressure mounts for the head coach.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
Makes sense, but then what about Shoen? They came in like a team, shouldn
t he go then?
Defense was getting better except for last two games. Coincidentally we let Leo Williams go 2 games ago. Giants need upgrade On BL and edge. Youngster secondary will be fine.
The GM still negotiates contracts and makes trades. That doesn’t change. It is simply a change in who is guiding the direction of the team. The VP of Football Operations job does not change as well. The coach reports to him and is managed/hired/fired by that person.
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
On the Giants, Schoen is the VP of Football Ops as well as GM... I suspect that many teams this is the set up.
I see what is being said and it has merit. But who is hiring the HC? And then the HC goes out and hires what is essentially a Player Personell manager.
But teams would need to change their entire structures. What happens if a HC wants to bring in a player with a terrible moral background(but a really, really good player - a Joe Mixon type) ? Or a Vontez Burfict? Who says no? Do you really want an owner involved that much?
RE: RE: RE: Chris B heard the same and gave some context on last night's podcast
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
If we can’t get to the QB via Edge or blitz, his D will be shot. I’ve seen a lot of that this year. I don’t think another DC could do much better. That said, I think we have to do better against the run and then pressure the QB. Ojulari seems like a lost cause and KT can only do so much. He’s not LT! We need another Edge rusher that is reliable and can consistently get home. Those guys are not easy to find though and may require a trade up in the draft. Further exacerbating the issue is the need for a QB!
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
His defense had very little to do with the 40-0 fiasco as 14 of those pints were quick and had nothing to do with his unit. They had tackling issues which I put on the players, not the coordinator. His unit was the only one to show up during the small part of the season that mattered and they were playing well when they traded one of his unit’s leaders and best players.
Kafka or really anyone in the offensive or special teams staffs would not surprise me. Johnson and McGaughey should be out 100%.
The best games the defense played were losses.
We need to be better on defense. Wink isn't terrible and I am sure the Giants could hire a shittier DC, knowing them they will, but Wink isn't exactly inspiring.
Not suggesting that the Defense doesn't have its issues but if Wink is shown the door, he better be walking out with a bunch of other NYG coaches too.
"Daboll needs to keep games competitive or he might be in trouble"
"Kafka and Wink may be replaced"
"The team still believes in Jones"
"The Giants will draft a QB"
It'll be non stop. Daboll will have his hands full. It'll be fascinating to see how Schoen handles the question in two weeks.
So you think the Ravens, as smart an organization as there is in the game, let Wink go in a lateral move, even though he's a top 5 DC?
Shows how tenuous the league is and how fans tend to react to success and failures.
"Daboll needs to keep games competitive or he might be in trouble"
"Kafka and Wink may be replaced"
"The team still believes in Jones"
"The Giants will draft a QB"
It'll be non stop. Daboll will have his hands full. It'll be fascinating to see how Schoen handles the question in two weeks.
Schoen speaking over the BYE week is now the most important thing that happens football wise until the season is over. Obviously he’ll keep things relatively close to the best but we should be able to take away certain things based on what he does say.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
How would this affect the defense. They have been drafting Wink style players for 2 seasons now.
No, he is not
you need to draft BPA.
wink might be gone now.
But Wink is not 1st on my list to be axed.
McGaughey has had one, maybe two, decent years, none recently, as STC. ST have been a disaster. Needs to be replaced.
Kafka - he is just awful at calling a game. How many times did the offense start moving(two years) and he calls some stupid backward play that loses yardage and kills the drive. Even the tush push has been a disaster. He does not seem to have a feel for the game. I think he designs excellent plays, but there is just a disconnect between him and the field.
Bobby Johnson - sorry, Evan Neal's development has been brutal as has been Ezeudu and Bredesen. These guys may not be pro bowlers but they are also not dog meat. Aside from AT, what Giants' lineman has performed at near average level? They bring in Pugh out of deperation and he looks like a revelation. WTF? You watch Pugh play and he picks up stunts with aplomb and knows how the leverage his opponent. He is undersized, not very strong but he is still the best OL after Thomas. Get someone in here before they eff up Schmitz too.
Daboll better wind up being a great HC. If you are firing both coordinators (and maybe the third one as well) with potentially one position coach (OL) then you better justify all these coaches were the problem and not the one who hired them.
Agree, it will be very interesting to hear what JS has to say during the bye.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
Because as Daboll grows as a HC, he gets to see what works and what doesn't. He brought in people he thought would be good and is finding out the job is not being done.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
Bad output this season or not, I don’t see how the defense is at or near the top of our problems.
They weren’t at fault in the Dallas game. The Arizona game makes a little more sense now seeing Dobbs continue the season he’s having in Minnesota.
The game I’ll pin most on Wink and the D was at Miami. Other than that they were fine until Leo was traded.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
Do you think Kafka is worth keeping? I may be wrong, but I have not been a fan of his either year. As to a new OC, Tierney is more important to the new QB than Kafka, unless Tierney is elevated to OC - but with Dorsey free.....
A new QB will be in trouble unless they fix the oline. We sound like broken records on that point, but it is true.
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
Quote:
shit on the wall anymore. Maybe Wink will be back, maybe he won't. But Tony Pauline certainly doesn't know anything...
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
And social media where everything is shared without consideration of source. Sigh.
Quote:
In comment 16291316 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
shit on the wall anymore. Maybe Wink will be back, maybe he won't. But Tony Pauline certainly doesn't know anything...
And this is the problem with the current state of sports media. Any swinging dick with thumbs can go out and report anything and people will lap it up without even considering if the reporter has any credibility.
And social media where everything is shared without consideration of source. Sigh.
Indeed. A recurring problem from what I understand.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
Agree, why indeed?
To be clear I am not advocating for Daboll to be sacked, just calling it as I see it.
Wink has had the defense, which was going to take a couple games to gel due to so many new bodies, and it did. They did enough to win against Buffalo. Enough in several other games.
Feel like it's unfair to compare his game this year and Kafka's side. There's been improvements and guys developing on defense. There's been zero on offense.
Only half joking. Wink is an OK d coordinator and probably better than what we’ve had in recent years, but he’s definitely not someone who’s irreplaceable.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
They’ve been accruing talent to fit winks system (Banks, Okereke, KT) while guys like Dex have taken their game to the next level…so it wouldn’t make sense to start fresh. Especially if it’s a massive scheme overhaul…
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
The defense is just as culpable as the offense this season with far LESS injury excuses.
The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field.
The defense was shredded last week. The defense provided very little resistance to the Cardinals for the entire first half. The Cards could have and quite frankly should have won that game.
The defense again, when it needed to stop someone late- Buffalo, could not do so. * don't tell me the offense couldn't score blah blah blah, because the Bills were in the same boat until late. One defense caved and one survived.
We have had very FEW game changing plays and cannot stop the run for shit.
This defense needs to change..
Same here man. Yuck!
Bad output this season or not, I don’t see how the defense is at or near the top of our problems.
They weren’t at fault in the Dallas game. The Arizona game makes a little more sense now seeing Dobbs continue the season he’s having in Minnesota.
The game I’ll pin most on Wink and the D was at Miami. Other than that they were fine until Leo was traded.
This is pure speculation but I wonder if there's more going on with Wink than just the on-field stuff.
Leonard Williams talked openly about how every DC has favorites and he wasn't Wink's favorite so the scheme didn't get him as many opportunities to decorate the stat sheet.
Xavier McKinney talked about Wink not listening to his players, which resulted in a oddly long response from Wink about it - that suggests to me that something about that feedback from X was either very very true, or very very false (and I suspect the former).
Someone on here claimed some asshat credentials a few months ago and made a vague reference to certain coaches blurring the line of authority with their players and treating some of them like pals instead of subordinates. I don't know how credible that poster's info is, but adding it here just as an effort to compile.
And then finally, the fact that Baltimore parted ways with Wink despite his unit performing as well as ever might be an indication that there was some other reason why they thought it was time to separate.
I'll fully acknowledge that there's a ton of speculation on my part there and I'm stringing things together to create a pattern that may not exist. But if there is something there, it could justify a decision to move on from Wink after this season.
He did, or was, an interview to be the coach here. I agree he has been great.
There are defenses loaded with talent and still struggling a bit. Niners to name. Steve Wilks is a better position coach than coordinator.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
and Coughlin also canned Hufnagel and made Gilbride OC
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
The defense is just as culpable as the offense this season with far LESS injury excuses.
The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field.
The defense was shredded last week. The defense provided very little resistance to the Cardinals for the entire first half. The Cards could have and quite frankly should have won that game.
The defense again, when it needed to stop someone late- Buffalo, could not do so. * don't tell me the offense couldn't score blah blah blah, because the Bills were in the same boat until late. One defense caved and one survived.
We have had very FEW game changing plays and cannot stop the run for shit.
This defense needs to change..
Cmon this is absurd. Could have won the Jets game on their own? They gave up 3 points in the second half!
I agree Sean.
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"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
They played lights out 99% of it. Blame Daboll and their bad offensive gameplan and decisions at the end.
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In comment 16291426 Toth029 said:
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"The defense could have won the Jets game by themselves and instead let that game go. A jets team that couldn't move the ball all day when it mattered most moved down the field."
They were the only reason the game was winnable. They forced a fumble early and Taylor and the offense did jack shit with it
And with the game all but won WINK went with 2 DL and the softest prevent I've ever seen and let a shit QB have the easiest long completion of his life to blow the game.
They played lights out 99% of it. Blame Daboll and their bad offensive gameplan and decisions at the end.
Me thinks Gano missing two FGs he makes 98 times out of 100 may have had the most to do with that loss.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Oh please. The 2020 Giants put up a top 10 defense.
The D started looking pretty strong right before the LW trade. They developed some young players, we also sunk a 1st rounder into getting Wink a CB to build around.
Revisit this when the offense is league average.
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Who's been a better DC for the Giants? Spags. That's it.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Oh please. The 2020 Giants put up a top 10 defense.
Not by DVOA. And their division was hilariously bad which helped strengthen the total yards and points.
Over-confidence/over-reliance in Tre Hawkins early on (that is on Daboll and Wink)
Drop in level of safety play (McKinney’s injury/attitude?, Loss of Julian Love?, Lack of development from Belton?)
Ojulari. Zero pass rush threat opposite a 2nd year player in Thibs. There was no depth at an oft injured position. This is on Schoen.
Okereke has really come on and turned into a bright spot, but he clearly needed a few games to acclimate. This to me is on Daboll and Wink. What were we doing this preseason and in training camp?
Then there was the bad tackling, most of which I put on the players at this level. McKinney was a huge culprit here. It feels like it took him a month before he hit someone instead of stripping at the ball other than when Dobbs trucked him.
If this happens and Daboll starts 3-7 next year, I think it's messy with the new QB.
Like it has been for the 10 years.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
I mean WTF, let's blame everyone. Fuck it, get rid of the ball boy and equipment manager and the travel secretary.....
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
You think Schoen should have a shorter leash than Gettleman?
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Wink has had the defense, which was going to take a couple games to gel due to so many new bodies, and it did. They did enough to win against Buffalo. Enough in several other games.
Feel like it's unfair to compare his game this year and Kafka's side. There's been improvements and guys developing on defense. There's been zero on offense.
The defense had a few solid games in the middle of the first half of the schedule, and had improved over the early start. But, they weren't against offensive juggernauts and now they're regressing plus injuries worsening, and for much of this season Wink's been getting outcoached, making some odd choices (presumably to protect his younger players), and there's been a number of head-scratching calls. I'm not in favor of letting him go unless it's determined it's the best course forward. But, he's had a difficult season so far.
That's fair. This franchise probably needs Jim Harbaugh more than anything. An asshole who will run the show and keep everyone in check.
Good concept. Go a bit more into detail. No need to write a thesis, a little broader overview, perhaps.
For instance, I think McGaughey is not part of the solution and neither is Johnson. Seeing little improvement in the development of the line in ANYONE leads me to believe something is amiss and the line coach is not part of the solution.
Kafka has been a problem.
Bobby Johnson has been a problem.
The ST Coach has been a problem.
There may be more….but please don’t leave these decisions solely in Dabunk’s hands.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
We need to fire Bobby Johnson for the total collapse of this offensive line to something sub-NFL level.
We should fire Thomas McGaughey for overseeing generally shitty ST units since he's been here.
We need to be looking at our medical staff and figure out what the hell we are doing there.
Personnel wise, we need to strengthen all areas of the passing game and affecting the opposing pass game. Specifically Edge and WR need to be addressed, as well as the swing Tackle position which should viewed as a capable potential starter given Neal's status.
Beyond this we have to hope Daboll and the rest of his staff can at least land somewhere closer to their 2022 performance and that this season had a kind of snowball effect once things got going wrong.
Seeing what is happening with Buffalo now does concern me.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Reasonable to me.
Brief take:
Pt 3 - I like reason to keep is forced on them by the players ability
Pt - 2.1 didn't work out so well previously, but I see the point.
Pt 1 - makes sense.
Kafka, Johnson and our illustrious special teams coach should all be shit canned.
Hopefully it will happen.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
But you're suggesting that the organization fires them instead of BD doing it? It is HIS staff
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asking why keeping Schoen is a good idea.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
I mean WTF, let's blame everyone. Fuck it, get rid of the ball boy and equipment manager and the travel secretary.....
I didn't say to part ways, but he needs to be in the center of this scrutiny.
He's just as responsible for the product as anyone with a headset.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
I would argue that John Fox was the best
I'm not sure I'm comfortable hitting the reset button less than 1.5 years in on the defense.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
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asking why keeping Schoen is a good idea.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
You think Schoen should have a shorter leash than Gettleman?
I think he should have another year to get this program back on track. We can walk through what that means, but he needs to feel pressure.
And that's because the difference between last year and this year is so profound that you have to question everyone who was making final decisions for this product.
He also said that he thinks there was more to the "long conversation" caught on TV between Wink and Daboll. He mentioned this for the first time last week.
Last night he also said he doesn't think the Giants will replace all 3 coordinators. He thinks Wink and McGaughey are gone, and the retain Kafka although Daboll takes over playcalling. He also thinks Bobby Johnson is gone.
This attitude of we do what we do regardless of whose in there is a failed process.
When quarterbacks get those type of mismatches they get rid of the ball so quickly there can be no pass rush
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I didn’t expect to be reading that Wink might be gone, but that’s good by me
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Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
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It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
They worked on secondary and LBs. They have to add edge guys that can hunt or else the defense will continue to be pretty average.
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Schoen sits down with Daboll and asks him "what went wrong this year and how do we fix it for next year?" If Daboll says he made a mistake in hiring the coordinators/coaches, he says that and presents a plan for who he is letting go and who he is looking at bringing in. If Schoen agree Daboll handles that.
If Daboll says "weird year, huh? I have no idea, but everyone on the staff did a nice job." Schoen either has to agree and let everyone stay (and let Daboll know his fate is tied to theirs) or he needs to let Daboll go and get a new coach.
The idea that you fire coordinators out from under the coach is absurd.
Great post. If potentially all coordinators are on the table should be fired, so should Daboll. I'm on record of wanting to keep him, but this is ridiculous.
This basically. What value does he bring if we're cleaning house anyway?
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In comment 16291544 Go Terps said:
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It's obvious above everything that they don't have a comprehensive plan, and even if they did they couldn't stick to it if they tried. They cycle through coaches, they reversed course on Eli in 2019 and Jones in 2022...they clearly lack patience and are sensitive to criticism.
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
Outstanding Terps!
And yet Parcells and Coughlin had no problem working for and succeeding with this meddlesome ownership
Chris Mara didn't promote himself until 2012. What happened to the player personnel afterward?
That is a failing of ownership.
There is a reason they wouldn't hire Belichick before or Harbaugh now... because those guys wouldn't accept ownership involvement in decision making.
With the way this organization is structured they need to set up a broad comprehensive plan based on clearly defined goals and objectives that can serve as guiding principles. They need this because there are a million different voices, agendas, and timelines in decision making posts at varying levels of the organization.
There is no vision. No plan.
1. What type of team do we want to be?
Given their history and the northeast climate I'd suggest that identity be based on smart QB play and strong (deep) offensive and defensive lines.
2: How do we become that type of team?
2.1: Hire a head coach with special teams experience that is familiar with coaching players on both sides of the ball and won't get bogged down with their nose in a play sheet or ignoring one side of the ball.
2.2: Hire veteran assistant coaches, particularly at both coordinator spots and the OL coach. Cleveland for example has Jim Schwartz at DC and Bill Callahan for the OL, and it shows.
2.3: With few exceptions spend premium draft picks and FA resources at QB, both OT spots, and along the DL. Fill out the rest later. Never feel comfortable with your depth at any of these positions. Philadelphia and SF are good examples.
3. Self-scout ruthlessly. Find reasons to replace people in all areas, rather than reasons to keep them. When faced with a question of whether to re-sign a player, lean towards "No" unless that player didn't give you a choice with his play.
That's a skeleton of a plan, and it feels like more than what the Giants are already doing.
So we had a guy who came in here with this plan and tried to follow it. His name was Joe Judge.
I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
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In comment 16291361 joeinpa said:
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Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
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No, he is not
Do you not think his Defenses in Baltimore would qualify?
Didnt you think last year our D was fantastic until injuries hit???
That was with LBs which couldn't tackle,let me say that again.
Our LBs couldn't tackle and we were competitve!!
This year our D kept us in numerous games...
What makes you feel he isn't the guy for us?
Personally I felt we were fortunate to get him...and even gladererer that noone signed him away from us this offseason.
Everyone has fucked up.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
So it's 2 and out until someone wins?
With that said, I'm a little surprised at this.
1. We have had some really good games with Wink.
2. We have seen real player development under Wink.
3. I find the defense hard to judge with the offenses constant 3 and outs. They're on the field nonstop. A better offense might give them a breather and allow them to execute better.
Garrett...
That didn't work out so well did it?
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In comment 16291425 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16291361 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Stinks
He singlehandedly dragged the team to the playoffs and beat the Vikings in the opening round! How can you say he stinks? Just because of the stupid results on the field? Have you considered how weak his supporting cast might be?
Single handily? Did you watch Daniel perform down the stretch and at Minnesota in the play offs. Your response is really a head scratcher.
In your haste to disagree with me you might have overstated your point.
I think you might have missed my point entirely.
I did, well done. I should have realized no one could really write what you wrote and think it true
But I stand by my previous take that Daniel was the key cog in leading the team to the playoffs and winning there
Those are the results on the field I m thinking off and why signing him was the correct move
But the Giants might have broken him.
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asking why keeping Schoen is a good idea.
So much of what he did in the offseason preparing for 2023 looks like the height of incompetence.
So it's 2 and out until someone wins?
No. I think three years should be enough to determine if the right foundation is in place.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Graham literally out coached Wink 2 weeks ago and we won a Superbowl with Fewell. What's Wink given us exactly?
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Who's been a better DC for the Giants? Spags. That's it.
Not Graham. Not Bettcher. Not Fewell. Not Sheridan. Not Lewis.
Graham literally out coached Wink 2 weeks ago and we won a Superbowl with Fewell. What's Wink given us exactly?
This comment comes off as unserious. What were your expectations in 2022?
They should have a structure where the head coach selects the GM. The GMs role is to get the players the coaches need to run their system. GMs should not be picking players and coaches then figure out how to best use them. The coaches need to have an outline of what they want at each position, and it is up to the GM and his staff to go find those guys. If he does a poor job, the coach lets him go and brings in someone else.
I know the Giants have never functioned this way, but to me it makes absolute sense.
Are you kidding me? The GM is the HC's boss. Back in George Young's day he took players with little regard for Parcells - that is not right. I agree.
Nowadays they work together to pick the players but still it is the GM that has the final word I believe.
That was fast.
Different issue all together. In those case they are the real GM. There might be a person with a title on those teams, but Reid, Belichick and Shanahan are the real GMs.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
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I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
Harder to fix a shitty 53 man roster than change a few coaches.
Our o line has been shit for 10+ years and we have had multiple o line coaches. So has changing the coach worked?
Jones has been mediocre at best under multiple coaches. Has changing the coaches worked?
I am not saying we have good coaches but changing coaches is not going to fix a shitty roster. On defense we have three above average players Dex, and the two inside backers and the rest are average at best.
On offense we have Thomas and Barkley as above average players.
So out of our 22 starters we have 5 above average players. I don't care who the coaches are, you are not winning many games having only 5 above average players.
We are a terrible drafting team and until we draft much better we will not improve.
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In comment 16291780 Mike from Ohio said:
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I didn’t suggest the Giants do run that way or ever have, I was suggesting that it makes more sense to me.
Ok.
Sorry I don't get it. Too much responsiblity for one man. Does the HC decide contracts too? (Not sure how Reid and Belichick do it for their teams) What happens with FAs and negotiating contracts? Who decides on the CAP space?
Not a terrible idea, but Coughlin was terrible at it and it bled over to his coaching. Belichick is not doing well with it now.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I don't think I'm overthinking it, but I am trying to figure how this works.
So the GM is not the GM but a personnel manager. Basically, you shitcan Schoen, and keep Brandon Brown to do contracts and administration.
Then the HC becomes, HC and VP of football operations.
Then who does the HC and VP of football Ops answer to, the owner?
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
I feel like you're overthinking this. The job responsibilities wouldn't have to change much, if at all; just the org chart would shift the reporting structure. Instead of the GM being the HC's direct superior, they would be the HC's direct report.
I would view this like the current college structure where the director of recruiting and director of operations report to the HC.
In that case, the HC has final say on all personnel decisions.
I've said it before, but a rookie QB and a potential lame duck head coach would be a disaster. Then the next coach is inheriting the QB. It can't happen.
Either commit to Daboll for three more years or just fire him now.
t he go then?
This is really just saying the coach hires the GM instead of the GM hires the coach.
On the Giants, Schoen is the VP of Football Ops as well as GM... I suspect that many teams this is the set up.
I see what is being said and it has merit. But who is hiring the HC? And then the HC goes out and hires what is essentially a Player Personell manager.
But teams would need to change their entire structures. What happens if a HC wants to bring in a player with a terrible moral background(but a really, really good player - a Joe Mixon type) ? Or a Vontez Burfict? Who says no? Do you really want an owner involved that much?
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I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
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However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I think it's easy to get hung up on this, even though it seems like a soundbite sort of thing more than anything else. It's not like Wink has Dexter playing deep middle or has Adoree 2-gapping the interior.
Generally speaking, the Giants have about the same number of bigger guys, medium-sized guys, and little guys on the field as any other defense and also has them in generally the same place doing the same macro role as pretty much another defense. How the pass rush is deployed or the coverage is schemed, or whatever - those are the details where Wink's defense is more on the unorthodox side, IMO.
And I know there are fans who get stuck on the depth chart listing too few defensive linemen, for example, which probably fuels much of the attempts by us as fans to reconcile our disappointment with the team's performance. But if Wink called his defense a 4-2 base nickel, and the depth chart had the current OLB groups listed as DE instead, I don't know if people would complain about the nomenclature, even though the performance would be the same, IMO.
well said GD
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In comment 16291597 joeinpa said:
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I hate the concept of positionless defense. Let s guys do what they do best
How can anyone defend the defense we saw against the Cowboys last week or the Eagles twice last season, especially the playoff rout
I'm not sure you would describe this as 'positionless defense'. He blitzes a lot and plays man coverage, which everyone wanted when Graham was here and Fewell was here. Read and React and soft coverage is bad, right?
This defense requires defensive backs that can play man defense and run support, and they also didn't have much of that and still don't. Last year they had one legitimate cornerback on the team, and still managed to win 9 games.
He also unlocked Dexter Lawrence and got him playing an untold and fully unexpected level.
You 'defend' how they played against the cowboys and eagles by understanding that the Eagles and Cowboys are elite offenses, have been miles ahead of the giants for years, and are conference title game expectants. How they dismantled the Giants is what they do to many teams, and you only have to look at the box scores to see that's true.
This is. Reasonable take, mine was a reaction without much thought
However, hasn’t Wink referred to his defense as positionless?
I appreciate the adult conversation.