after last weekend’s game. Sorry if this has been brought up before. “Williams has to address his awful ball security. He fumbled again Saturday to raise his career tally to 32 in as many starts. USC’s offense has had no schematic answers for blitzes this year, but Williams’ tendency to wildly run around the pocket turns his greatest asset — improvisation — into a liability.”
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In comment 16291465 jinkies said:
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He is going #1 overall.
His TD to turnover ratio for 2 years at USC is 7 to 1. 92 TDs / 13 turnovers.
This year his efficiency numbers are similar, without Jordan Addison and a lesser OL, 40 TDs / 7 turnovers.
He is a phenomenal prospect and many of you are cheering for the Giants not to consider him. He may be Andrew Luck good. Please watch him and Maye and tell me with a straight face you like Maye better. Maye is not better.
If we have #1 Maye is the pick.
I am more worried about Williams character than his ball security skills. Jones was awful and he got much better and so can Caleb.
Their issues aren't apples to apples at all. Jones always had pretty good mechanics, he got hit a ton in college because how bad Dukes OL is and he was middle of the road fumbles. When he got to the NFL he just needed to get a little stronger (a ton of those fumbles were squeekers his rookie year) and can't the ball a bit higher.
What he had is fixable. What Williams has, I don't think I've seen anyone get better at it, looks a lot like Wentz, and Wentz is way stronger. I can't imagine him fixing it unless he goes to a team with a decent line, because insticts are going to take over here. His high school coaches really failed him here, and his college coaches did nothing to fix it.
His coaching in the NFL will beat it into his head to stop flailing away with the ball. Ball security is teachable especially when he forgets a couple times and fumbles. The return to the bench will be a teachable moment. Smart guy, he will get it. Nobody likes to be shit on for something that they can fix. Ask Tiki....
Hopefully Jones doesn't share with Williams, how to pass for just 62 TDs and rush for 13 more (75 combined TDs) over DJ's 60 career starts.
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lean on Daniel Jones' expertise and how he solved the same problem in his game.
Hopefully Jones doesn't share with Williams, how to pass for just 62 TDs and rush for 13 more (75 combined TDs) over DJ's 60 career starts.
Unfortunately, they are the same answer.
I read through threads like this and I seriously believe many here watch no football outside of NYG, which is fine of course. But saying that QB’s need to only play within structure to be successful is really damning.
His coaching in the NFL will beat it into his head to stop flailing away with the ball. Ball security is teachable especially when he forgets a couple times and fumbles. The return to the bench will be a teachable moment. Smart guy, he will get it. Nobody likes to be shit on for something that they can fix. Ask Tiki....
Way different fixing a QBs fumbles then a RBs, not even close to the same issue. They can beat it into his head, but its really tough to do until you get live bullets, and then instincts take over. Guys just don't get better here, not that I've seen at least. I've seen QBs get better that have decent mechanics, but bring the ball low too much when moving around.
People said that about Ohio State QBs and now Stroud is getting MVP talk.
27 TDs (Rushing)
13 INTs
I couldn't find a stat for "fumbles lost" but given that Jones averages about 75% of his fumbles lost, let's go with that number.
That means approximately 24 of Caleb's fumbles were lost, combined with 13 INTs = 37 total turnovers or 1.16 per game.
His passing and rushing totals for those 32 games = 119, which is an average of 3.72 TDs per game (or 26 points per game).
I'll live with one turnover per game if Caleb can deliver nearly 4 TDs per.
17 fumbles lost in 36 games. Not ideal, but not a game breaker.
https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/caleb-williams-4-player-stats?category=rushing&seasonType=reg
Most scouts have him as the best QB prospect since Luck ... better than Burrow and Lawrence.
Caleb rushing stats - ( New Window )
It’s a lot easier to fix fumbling issues than an interception issue. Caleb will be fine in the NFL.
I believe sacks count towards rushing in college, so I’d assume the fumbles on sacks are included in the rushing stats too
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He is going #1 overall.
His TD to turnover ratio for 2 years at USC is 7 to 1. 92 TDs / 13 turnovers.
This year his efficiency numbers are similar, without Jordan Addison and a lesser OL, 40 TDs / 7 turnovers.
He is a phenomenal prospect and many of you are cheering for the Giants not to consider him. He may be Andrew Luck good. Please watch him and Maye and tell me with a straight face you like Maye better. Maye is not better.
If we have #1 Maye is the pick.
Caleb is the pick.. sorry..
Having concerns is not ‘anti-Caleb’. From what I’ve seen, ball security is an issue. Be happy with any of the top 3, but prefer Maye and Daniels to Williams for that reason. That’s not anti-Caleb, just an opinion. Bottom line, I want Schoen/Daboll to pick THEIR guy and we’ll go from there.
He did fine, but not what you expect from the No. 1 overall pick. He was a good, not great, solid QB.
- Threw 20 or more INTs 3 times
- Only made the playoffs three times in 14 years, only won one playoff game.
- Only completed 65 percent twice (I gave it to him for 64.9) :)
This, along with questions about how he plays when facing pressure from a good defense, will, I believe, turn off the Giants.
No.
I am clearly in the minority with this topic because I think that's way overrated; and it's a lot easier to coach/manage that piece than teach someone how to roll left and fire 35-yard strikes for big splash plays.
The fact anyone would have media relations as a key variable in the assessment process is absurd.
How about Duke QBs in the NFL?
We have had 2 for the Giants and one went 23-30 and one is currently 22-36-1
This isn't a running back we're talking about, it's the most important position in football where we're in position to take a great prospect. A position we wouldn't likely be again any time soon. I doubt we're picking top 3 AND picking in a strong QB class that often. Linemen can be had in other rounds.
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Not wanting to play for a clownshow organization, derailing your career, and using what very little leverage you have, vs demanding a payout before even playing a snap?
Thinking both are similar can't not be a serious opinion if you think about it for one second.
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In comment 16291463 46and2Blue said:
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Not wanting to play for a clownshow organization, derailing your career, and using what very little leverage you have, vs demanding a payout before even playing a snap?
Thinking both are similar can't not be a serious opinion if you think about it for one second.
Why not? Neither one of those players' demands was even realistic in real time (and let's not forget that draftees actually had negotiable contracts back when Eli was drafted vs. the slotting system used now), so neither Eli's confirmed threat to refuse to play for San Diego was honestly just as hollow as Caleb's rumored request for ownership shares is now. But they're viewed differently despite the fact that they're both just hot air.
You're proving my point.
Caleb is not that. The fumbles is a giant concern, especially at the college level and loss fumbles are actually worse than ints from a analytics perspective. If he sits out a year, he would drop below other QB prospects.
Mostly right. But the irony to me was Peyton was willing to go to the dreadful Colts and their lunatic owner. He embraced the challenge.
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I don't think Eli had 'demands'. I just remember-& perhaps I'm getting old & forgetting things-he didn't just want to play for the Chargers because of their instability/Archie had played for a woebegone franchise in the Saints. &-at the time-the Giants were seen as a well run organization.
Mostly right. But the irony to me was Peyton was willing to go to the dreadful Colts and their lunatic owner. He embraced the challenge.
Follow the money.
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Man you re on a role. In this thread alone you accused someone you don’t even know of being unintelligent because he has a different opinion than you on a football player. And now you are suggesting another poster you never met is a racist for the same reason.
Think about that for a moment, is that really who you want to be
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He is going #1 overall.
His TD to turnover ratio for 2 years at USC is 7 to 1. 92 TDs / 13 turnovers.
This year his efficiency numbers are similar, without Jordan Addison and a lesser OL, 40 TDs / 7 turnovers.
He is a phenomenal prospect and many of you are cheering for the Giants not to consider him. He may be Andrew Luck good. Please watch him and Maye and tell me with a straight face you like Maye better. Maye is not better.
If we have #1 Maye is the pick.
Caleb is the pick.. sorry..
sure glad you aren't handing in the card to the Commish :)
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In comment 16291463 46and2Blue said:
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Man you re on a role. In this thread alone you accused someone you don’t even know of being unintelligent because he has a different opinion than you on a football player. And now you are suggesting another poster you never met is a racist for the same reason.
Think about that for a moment, is that really who you want to be
No, I said the practice of helmet scouting is lazy and unintelligent. And it is.
Intelligent people do lazy, unintelligent things all the time. You're just taking it personally because you also do the same helmet scouting nonsense.
Care to show me where I made any mention of race?
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In comment 16291633 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16291463 46and2Blue said:
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Man you re on a role. In this thread alone you accused someone you don’t even know of being unintelligent because he has a different opinion than you on a football player. And now you are suggesting another poster you never met is a racist for the same reason.
Think about that for a moment, is that really who you want to be
No, I said the practice of helmet scouting is lazy and unintelligent. And it is.
Intelligent people do lazy, unintelligent things all the time. You're just taking it personally because you also do the same helmet scouting nonsense.
Care to show me where I made any mention of race?
No not taking it personally Just don’t agree that suggesting a poster with a differing view is unintelligent. Some of your posts have a real edge to them, I normally don’t engage your posts for that reason, this time I did.
I took your statement, “or maybe it s something else” as an inuendo , which Is why I wrote “suggesting”
If that was not where you were going, I apologize. But you seem like an intelligent guy, did you not suspect it could be taken that way
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I don't think Eli had 'demands'. I just remember-& perhaps I'm getting old & forgetting things-he didn't just want to play for the Chargers because of their instability/Archie had played for a woebegone franchise in the Saints. &-at the time-the Giants were seen as a well run organization.
Mostly right. But the irony to me was Peyton was willing to go to the dreadful Colts and their lunatic owner. He embraced the challenge.
He went back to school rather than go to the Jets
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In comment 16291633 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16291463 46and2Blue said:
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Not wanting to play for a clownshow organization, derailing your career, and using what very little leverage you have, vs demanding a payout before even playing a snap?
Thinking both are similar can't not be a serious opinion if you think about it for one second.
Why not? Neither one of those players' demands was even realistic in real time (and let's not forget that draftees actually had negotiable contracts back when Eli was drafted vs. the slotting system used now), so neither Eli's confirmed threat to refuse to play for San Diego was honestly just as hollow as Caleb's rumored request for ownership shares is now. But they're viewed differently despite the fact that they're both just hot air.
You're proving my point.
Intent is the major difference. Eli’s demand was based on competitive advantage: wanting to win. You can make argument about NY vs San Diego market impact, but we all know that was Archie’s demand to protect his son from suffering the same fate he did with the Aints.
Caleb’s is based solely on personal, financial gain. He’s got all the talent in the world, and any warts in his game can be coached out, theoretically. The concern with him is how does he respond to coaching, adversity, and not being head and shoulders ahead of everyone else on the field in talent?
He reminds me of the OBJ of QBs. His supreme talent will carry him for a bit, but at some point, he won’t be able to escape himself. We all focused on the one handed catch, when we should have been focused on the spear with helmet in his first game. Caleb seems to have an element of that in him.
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In comment 16291736 joeinpa said:
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In comment 16291633 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 16291463 46and2Blue said:
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interested in rumors about his character and wanting to partially own etc... he seems to have a very Cam Newton like personality
See, I see it more like an Eli-like personality, making NFL-sized demands before even entering the league. What's the difference between supposedly wanting ownership equity (which CW can't actually have, anyway) vs. telling the team with the #1 pick that you won't play for them even if they draft you, and going so far as to apply to law school as a threat?
No one seemed to mind those equally (IMO) ballsy demands from a pre-rookie when it came from someone like Eli. Maybe I'm misremembering. Or maybe it's something else.
Man you re on a role. In this thread alone you accused someone you don’t even know of being unintelligent because he has a different opinion than you on a football player. And now you are suggesting another poster you never met is a racist for the same reason.
Think about that for a moment, is that really who you want to be
No, I said the practice of helmet scouting is lazy and unintelligent. And it is.
Intelligent people do lazy, unintelligent things all the time. You're just taking it personally because you also do the same helmet scouting nonsense.
Care to show me where I made any mention of race?
No not taking it personally Just don’t agree that suggesting a poster with a differing view is unintelligent. Some of your posts have a real edge to them, I normally don’t engage your posts for that reason, this time I did.
I took your statement, “or maybe it s something else” as an inuendo , which Is why I wrote “suggesting”
If that was not where you were going, I apologize. But you seem like an intelligent guy, did you not suspect it could be taken that way
It wasn't meant to be racially-driven, though I'll concede that race may fit into the perception for some people. But where I was going with that was more the fact that fans will happily lap up similar behavior when it comes from an oh-golly-gee-shucks persona (like Eli) vs. the perception around the newer generation of athletes (and people in general, like the pages-long debate on here about backpacks and reusable water bottles just a few months ago). Sometimes that seems to overlap with race and culture, but that wasn't my direct intent.
That said, I do think it's funny that the post that I initially replied to on this compared Caleb to Cam but the reality is that there has never been a bigger example of mercenaries than the Manning brothers - it's not a coincidence that they finished their careers #1 and #2 in all time NFL earnings. A lot of that is due to the previous contracts that #1 overall picks used to get, and the career longevity that both Mannings had, but that's not the only factor. The Mannings didn't leave money on the table, and the only way to achieve that is to ask for it.
I just don't see what the crime is in Caleb asking for ownership other than the stupidity of asking for something that, by rule, he can't get. As far as I know, that hasn't even been confirmed - it's just a rumor.
Having said all that, I personally would probably lean toward Maye over Williams, but it's more about body type. Small QBs make me nervous. Small QBs behind porous OLs make me extra nervous. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over the Giants drafting Caleb if Schoen and Daboll think he's the star QB for this team.
All the other stuff doesn't bother me. A little flair? So what? Did that bother anyone when it was Namath half a century ago? How about when it's Burrow now? Superstar, celebrity QBs are always going to have that swagger. How they carry it varies I guess, but that same confidence required to play the position at the highest level is usually going to come through in their personality in other ways also, IMO.
LOL
Who cares.
Who cares.
It's completely ludicrous.
Can we decide if he's the best quarterback first. Before we eliminate him over nonsense.
Who cares.
Generally speaking I don’t care at all. But whether you want to admit it or not, mental makeup is a huge part of sport and we’ve been burned a lot by players who can’t seem to handle life in the NFL. I think Caleb Williams is handling himself differently enough from the other top guys where it gives me pause to want to know why. I obviously won’t be able to get that answered but I hope Schoen does. And if he’s satisfied, than I will be too.
No.
Completely agree.
A 6ft qb who has never played under center and is in a air raid one read type offense is def not a sure thing.
Caleb is light years ahead of Daniel Jones in every regard.
This is not about Caleb vs Jones. It is Caleb vs other QBs we could select with our pick.
WTF is wrong with you people?