Don't get me wrong...he's sensational. An incredible talent. But the Halos won 70ish games this season. When he won his first MVP in '21, the Angels also won 70ish games.
Shouldn't an MVP, ya know, be a dude on a winning team that helps elevate said team? If we're going to just give MVP to the best player, rename the award to something like...MEP, Most Excellent Player.
Was there a player on the Rangers or Orioles that kind of carried his team (as Judge did last year)? Maybe Seager? If two players are close it should go to the player whose team finished higher in the standings.
To me an MVP, he/she is someone on a winning team.
The Angels are unfortunate in that great players like Trout (who has also been MVP multiple times) and Ohtani haven't made them contenders. Kind of incredible when you think about it.
But he certainly was deserving.
I am sure there's an example out there of an MVP who possibly wasn't the best player overall for a particular season. Kirk Gibson with the Dodgers maybe back in 88? Had just 76 RBI for the season but his leadership was off the charts for that team.
If it was close then I’m 100% going with the guy on a winning team (like with Judge), but it wasn’t close at all in the AL.
To me an MVP, he/she is someone on a winning team.
He won 10 games as a starting pitcher alone with a 3.14 ERA. He was lost for the year in August and still led the league in home runs, OBP, slugging and OPS with a WAR of 10.0. If he didn't get hurt he would have obliterated the rest of the league offensively while pitching every 5th day.
To me an MVP, he/she is someone on a winning team.
I agree with you and so do some others.
What do you mean "we"? There are some old timers here that saw Willie, Mickey and Hank play (and others).
Ohtani is one of the best players today, no question. I think Judge is a better position player(Mookie too). He is not the best pitcher, but one of the better ones.
If I could have Ohtani or Judge and Cole, I am taking Judge and Cole.
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the best baseball player we have ever seen but for me you should have to finish the season healthy to be MVP. I know it's a weird take but but finishing the year with a team losing record and on the IL doesn't seem very valuable.
What do you mean "we"? There are some old timers here that saw Willie, Mickey and Hank play (and others).
Ohtani is one of the best players today, no question. I think Judge is a better position player(Mookie too). He is not the best pitcher, but one of the better ones.
If I could have Ohtani or Judge and Cole, I am taking Judge and Cole.
Just my opinion, wasn't speaking for you.
I'm not young, love all those you mentioned. I'm a Yankee fan too but Ohtani is a different beast.
If I'm starting a team tho I would take Cole as well from those three just because of health and he's pretty awesome as well.
"We couldn't have done it without you."
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Alright, I guess I'm in the minority. I just don't get how a player-incredible as she/he might be-is an MVP when his team sucked. So the Angels won 73 games with him. So if he's not there, they win 65 games? Who GAF?
To me an MVP, he/she is someone on a winning team.
I agree with you and so do some others.
I'm with you guys. Great, yes. Most Valuable, NOT.
Branch Rickey said it best: "We finished last with you and we can finish last without you."
Rangers signed them both as FAs on the same day, December 1, 2021. Result was to transform a 101-loss team into a World Series winner a year later.
Brian "pretty f-ing good" Cashman had no interest. Fifty million for Josh Donaldson, that was the ticket.
Seager can content himself with the 2023 WS MVP, which made him only the second position player to win multiple such awards, and the second to do so with two different teams.
Joining Reggie J, on both counts, of course.
So, some education is probably helpful on how to determine player value or just don't take these awards as seriously.
Rangers signed them both as FAs on the same day, December 1, 2021. Result was to transform a 101-loss team into a World Series winner a year later.
Brian "pretty f-ing good" Cashman had no interest. Fifty million for Josh Donaldson, that was the ticket.
Seager can content himself with the 2023 WS MVP, which made him only the second position player to win multiple such awards, and the second to do so with two different teams.
Joining Reggie J, on both counts, of course.
Ok, so two guys virtually turned a 101 loss team into a WS champion (the very definition of MVP) and end up 2nd fiddle to a guy that propelled his team to 73 wins....my(our) exact point.
I have not seen the voting, but I guess Ohtani got the majority of the 1st place votes.
This wasn't really close.
One player can’t elevate an entire baseball team, c’mon.
Let’s get some Yankees hot stove going. I can complain about Cashman forever, as you know, but…
This wasn't really close.
While he may be the best player this year, he would not fit the criteria customarily used. However I did a quick search and apparently the old definition is no longer used - most valuable player to his team. The guy that made his team a winner. Perhaps with so many divisions and teams making playoffs, that was scraped.
Now it seems to be more of player of the year award and if that is the case, then he would be deserving.
To me an MVP, he/she is someone on a winning team.
Angels actually won 61 games with him before he tore his UCL. 61-63 record
Then without him or with him trying to play through that injury when probably no one else would (speaks volumes about his character considering he was on a team out of the race) the Angels went 12-26.
So that tells you right there how many wins alone this guy was worth to the team
I get the argument about missing almost two months of the season with injury keeping him from this award - I don’t think the W/L argument does. You’re blaming him for the angels falling apart without him there late in the year.
Not a weird take at all. They were already one of the worst teams in baseball and have been. If you go by WAR, he basically added 10 wind to their 73 - tremendous. They also have Mike Trout.
Think about the Texans - lost 94 games last year. They added Seager, who had a great year, and won 90 - 22 more wins. He was one of the leading reasons they improved.
But like I said, I tried to find the definition and it appears that BBWAA no longer uses the traditional definition. And that may be better or easier to define the award..
As you can see from this thread, many of us use the traditional MVP criteria.
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Dude was an incredible pitcher and hitter. Clearly the *most valuable player* to his team. The fact that the rest of the team was shite, shouldn't be a negative for him. Without him, they'd be the worst team in baseball.
Not a weird take at all. They were already one of the worst teams in baseball and have been. If you go by WAR, he basically added 10 wind to their 73 - tremendous. They also have Mike Trout.
Think about the Texans - lost 94 games last year. They added Seager, who had a great year, and won 90 - 22 more wins. He was one of the leading reasons they improved.
But like I said, I tried to find the definition and it appears that BBWAA no longer uses the traditional definition. And that may be better or easier to define the award..
As you can see from this thread, many of us use the traditional MVP criteria.
LOL we are gonna pretend they only added Seager?
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In comment 16291909 Heisenberg said:
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Dude was an incredible pitcher and hitter. Clearly the *most valuable player* to his team. The fact that the rest of the team was shite, shouldn't be a negative for him. Without him, they'd be the worst team in baseball.
Not a weird take at all. They were already one of the worst teams in baseball and have been. If you go by WAR, he basically added 10 wind to their 73 - tremendous. They also have Mike Trout.
Think about the Texans - lost 94 games last year. They added Seager, who had a great year, and won 90 - 22 more wins. He was one of the leading reasons they improved.
But like I said, I tried to find the definition and it appears that BBWAA no longer uses the traditional definition. And that may be better or easier to define the award..
As you can see from this thread, many of us use the traditional MVP criteria.
LOL we are gonna pretend they only added Seager?
He was the prime mover there. Was he the guy that pushed them over the top? Probably
We can play the game all day in what ifs. Look Ohtani had a great year. The definition has changed, he won. Remember last year there were those that questioned if Judge was MVP over Ohtani(had another great year) and the two CA BBWAA voted for Ohatni. Now that was truly WTF! Voting for a guy on a 73 win team vs a guy that literally carried his team to 99 wins while breaking the AL home run record. If there was ever an example of MVP Judge last year was it.
But Baseball has always had great debates over these awards.
He was rightly unanimous. Seager finished 2nd, with 11 less HRs and an OPS .053 lower. Oh, and he didn't pitch. Noone was close.
Exactly. The only difference is the former has a worse team than the latter. Not his fault.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
Ohtani missed a month of baseball and was miles on everyone else. He was a slam dunk.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
I said last year, Ohtani is basically a lock for MVP in any league he is but for two things:
1. Health. 2024 he won't be pitching at all, or playing the field.
2. A historic season such as Judge had last year. Acuna was nuts this year. It would have been an interesting vote if Acuna and Ohtani were in the same league. As much as I despise the Braves, Acuna might have won it.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
You are exasperating. It is not the Player of the Year Award. It may now have turned into Player of the Year, but that is not how it historically was awarded. Ohtani had a great year, he did. But his team did nothing. So basically he was the tallest midget(he is tall} on a shitty team. He is crazy good. If you read the thread thru, basically it is about 75%(unscientific survey) that people do not understand why a player on an unsuccessful team wins the most important award in baseball.
You forgot that Judge is a plus outfielder in both CF and RF too, BTW.
Oh, and pitching has its own award, called the Cy Young. So his pitching should not count in MVP voting.
So basically, I am egging you on. It appears that BBWAA have decided to not maintain the historical aspect of the MVP.
BTW, Seager had a fantastic year - .327 BA, 96 RBIs, 33 HRs, OPS 1.013 and OPS+ of 170 with a 6.9 WAR. And he plays the field in the second most important position at SS.
Ohtani is a DH(no fielding) with a .304 BA, 95 RBIs, 44 HRs, OPS 1.066 and OPS+ 184.
So Ohtani doesn't play the field and basically sits on his ass 6 out of 7 days per week.
[quote] though. Lefty hitter too [/quote
In my mind he either pitches or he hits(plays the field). Eventually he will need to stop pitching. But he will not go to a team that won't let him continue doing both.
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debate. Last year, Judge only won because he had a truly historic offensive season. He led the league in HR, OBP, SLG and set a record for HR in AL.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
You are exasperating. It is not the Player of the Year Award. It may now have turned into Player of the Year, but that is not how it historically was awarded. Ohtani had a great year, he did. But his team did nothing. So basically he was the tallest midget(he is tall} on a shitty team. He is crazy good. If you read the thread thru, basically it is about 75%(unscientific survey) that people do not understand why a player on an unsuccessful team wins the most important award in baseball.
You forgot that Judge is a plus outfielder in both CF and RF too, BTW.
Oh, and pitching has its own award, called the Cy Young. So his pitching should not count in MVP voting.
So basically, I am egging you on. It appears that BBWAA have decided to not maintain the historical aspect of the MVP.
BTW, Seager had a fantastic year - .327 BA, 96 RBIs, 33 HRs, OPS 1.013 and OPS+ of 170 with a 6.9 WAR. And he plays the field in the second most important position at SS.
Ohtani is a DH(no fielding) with a .304 BA, 95 RBIs, 44 HRs, OPS 1.066 and OPS+ 184.
So Ohtani doesn't play the field and basically sits on his ass 6 out of 7 days per week.
LOL…the one day a week he doesn’t “sit on his ass” he pitches, and he’s show. Himself to be one of the best in the league.
He earned the MVP. Just stop with your nonsense.
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debate. Last year, Judge only won because he had a truly historic offensive season. He led the league in HR, OBP, SLG and set a record for HR in AL.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
You are exasperating. It is not the Player of the Year Award. It may now have turned into Player of the Year, but that is not how it historically was awarded. Ohtani had a great year, he did. But his team did nothing. So basically he was the tallest midget(he is tall} on a shitty team. He is crazy good. If you read the thread thru, basically it is about 75%(unscientific survey) that people do not understand why a player on an unsuccessful team wins the most important award in baseball.
You forgot that Judge is a plus outfielder in both CF and RF too, BTW.
Oh, and pitching has its own award, called the Cy Young. So his pitching should not count in MVP voting.
So basically, I am egging you on. It appears that BBWAA have decided to not maintain the historical aspect of the MVP.
BTW, Seager had a fantastic year - .327 BA, 96 RBIs, 33 HRs, OPS 1.013 and OPS+ of 170 with a 6.9 WAR. And he plays the field in the second most important position at SS.
Ohtani is a DH(no fielding) with a .304 BA, 95 RBIs, 44 HRs, OPS 1.066 and OPS+ 184.
So Ohtani doesn't play the field and basically sits on his ass 6 out of 7 days per week.
Brooks Robinson won in 1965. They finished third.
Roberto Clemente won in 1966. They finished third.
Rod Carew won in 1977. They finished fourth.
Robin Yount won in 1989. They finished fourth.
Cal Ripken Jr. won in 1991. They finished sixth.
Maybe the way it was historically awarded is not exactly the way you remember it.
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In comment 16292060 Heisenberg said:
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debate. Last year, Judge only won because he had a truly historic offensive season. He led the league in HR, OBP, SLG and set a record for HR in AL.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
You are exasperating. It is not the Player of the Year Award. It may now have turned into Player of the Year, but that is not how it historically was awarded. Ohtani had a great year, he did. But his team did nothing. So basically he was the tallest midget(he is tall} on a shitty team. He is crazy good. If you read the thread thru, basically it is about 75%(unscientific survey) that people do not understand why a player on an unsuccessful team wins the most important award in baseball.
You forgot that Judge is a plus outfielder in both CF and RF too, BTW.
Oh, and pitching has its own award, called the Cy Young. So his pitching should not count in MVP voting.
So basically, I am egging you on. It appears that BBWAA have decided to not maintain the historical aspect of the MVP.
BTW, Seager had a fantastic year - .327 BA, 96 RBIs, 33 HRs, OPS 1.013 and OPS+ of 170 with a 6.9 WAR. And he plays the field in the second most important position at SS.
Ohtani is a DH(no fielding) with a .304 BA, 95 RBIs, 44 HRs, OPS 1.066 and OPS+ 184.
So Ohtani doesn't play the field and basically sits on his ass 6 out of 7 days per week.
Brooks Robinson won in 1965. They finished third.
Roberto Clemente won in 1966. They finished third.
Rod Carew won in 1977. They finished fourth.
Robin Yount won in 1989. They finished fourth.
Cal Ripken Jr. won in 1991. They finished sixth.
Maybe the way it was historically awarded is not exactly the way you remember it.
No, I remember it correctly because it was a discussion even when I was a kid, back when baseball was king and baseball was the topic of discussion. Not every winner was on a 1st place team. And I'm not going to look and see what those players did to earn it. Perhaps there wasn't any player on the teams above them that did anything special.
No doubt Ohatni was the MVP to the Angels. Seager's numbers weren't far off and he only played in 119 games vs Ohtani's 144(?). Now that could be a factor too. Availibility.
You showed me 5 players of almost 90 years of awards and they span 26 years, so you must have looked over the winners to see who somewhat fits Ohtani's position.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
As for Judge, he led the league in WAR last year. And his WAR was more than Ohtani's batting + pitching WAR. It wasn't just about the HR.
And, with Ohtani's WAR they lost over 100 games. So, without him they lose 120? His value is unmistakeable.
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debate. Last year, Judge only won because he had a truly historic offensive season. He led the league in HR, OBP, SLG and set a record for HR in AL.
This year, it was Ohtani that led the league in HR, OBP and SLG (same league as Seager, btw). AND he pitched 23 games and struck out 11 guys per 9. So, with due respect to Seager, to pretend that he's better than Ohtani because the rest of the Rangers are also better than the bad Angels team is nuts to me.
Nobody said Seager is better. They said he is more valuable.
As for Judge, he led the league in WAR last year. And his WAR was more than Ohtani's batting + pitching WAR. It wasn't just about the HR.
And, with Ohtani's WAR they lost over 100 games. So, without him they lose 120? His value is unmistakeable.
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every voter voted for Ohtani for 1st place. And should have.
This wasn't really close.
While he may be the best player this year, he would not fit the criteria customarily used. However I did a quick search and apparently the old definition is no longer used - most valuable player to his team. The guy that made his team a winner. Perhaps with so many divisions and teams making playoffs, that was scraped.
Now it seems to be more of player of the year award and if that is the case, then he would be deserving.
Thanks section125, I did not know that the criteria had changed.
No, I remember it correctly because it was a discussion even when I was a kid, back when baseball was king and baseball was the topic of discussion. Not every winner was on a 1st place team. And I'm not going to look and see what those players did to earn it. Perhaps there wasn't any player on the teams above them that did anything special.
No doubt Ohatni was the MVP to the Angels. Seager's numbers weren't far off and he only played in 119 games vs Ohtani's 144(?). Now that could be a factor too. Availibility.
You showed me 5 players of almost 90 years of awards and they span 26 years, so you must have looked over the winners to see who somewhat fits Ohtani's position.
I am sure there are more. I am not looking through every year because I don’t really care. The point is there are times throughout league history that a player does things so impressive that they get the award even on a shitty team because it is not their fault they are on a shitty team.