He leaves and with this supposedly tragic offensive line Coughlin (assuming McAdoo was more passenger) gets the offense +5 and +8 better the next two years.
RE: Snee coming back for the 2013 season where he spent most of it
Don't hire Dave Gettleman.
Realise at the time of going into the 2018 draft that the Giants are not a couple of players away from competing for a Superbowl, and recognise instead - as many fans did - that the roster needs an overhaul, hence you absolutely do not draft a runningback with that #2 pick.
The preparations for Eli's departure. We held onto 'things' for way too long. We should have started the process of preparing for his successor a lot earlier than we did. It all stems from that, mistake after compounding mistake. Dead serious, we should have started thinking about it as far back as the '14 season.
The possible trade for Mahomes is interesting but there’s no guarantee he’d be the same with the Giants’ coaches. Everything else mentioned is still fixable … not taking Parsons is not.
I am not sure that the only difference between Mahomes and Jones is coaching.. many things Mahomes does cannot be coached.. may be just may be he is really that good..
I’m not comparing Mahomes and DJ … Mahomes is a very special talent, clearly the best in the league right now; but a lot of it is because of Andy Reid.
I think this was the turning point and where any alignment in the origination ended. This was when Mara said the offense was "broken" and made the comments about Jernigan.
It was not productive to force staff changes on Coughlin at that point. Everyone should have gotten 2014 to sink and swim. And if you wanted to give them 2015 too, fine. That's Reese, Coughlin, Gilbride, etc. Fewell ended up getting scapegoated the next year.
This is when the priority became "fixing Eli" instead of winning. We've seen similar moves with Jones in recent years.
I'm similar, Gilbride was a scapegoat of another terrible OL. That said, worse than that was the fact that they spent that money on defense after letting Coughlin go in 2016. If he is still the head coach in 2016 I think they had a shot to make a good run in the playoffs. And I echo others that Gettleman was the worst hire in NY Giants FO history.
His decisions were disastrous as evidenced by the current state of the team. However, not properly addressing the O-Line during the 2nd half of Eli’s career was criminal.
I remember going to a place straight from the hotel to watch the game with my wife and family. Odell putting the team on his back with 2 ridiculous td grabs and the comeback only to lose on that kick. Brutal
hiring Gettleman was a disaster. Not only did we waste the half decade that he was in charge with awful teams, but he left the roster and cap situation a complete train wreck behind him. Just awful.
I understand after a championship, you want to bring as many back to see if you can ride the momentum (2008 until Plaxico's mishap).
However, If I recall correctly, Justin Tuck was thinking of shutting it down for 2011 in mid December due to a neck issue and Coughlin talked him out of it. Osi was vocal. The O-Line was running on fumes. It felt like we squeezed the last bit of toothpaste out of that tube.
Starting a rebuild or retool in 2012 may have been the way to go. I believe the Ravens did this after 2012.
RE: Gettleman was much more destructive than Reese
The Gettleman drafts were a disaster and Schoen has doubled down on it. Has set the franchise back at least 2 years.
The fact that Reese gets brought up here like he's an equal to Gettleman is ridiculous.
Really? Go look at 2012 - 17. Yikes! Wilson, Pugh, OBJ, Flowers, Apple, Engram. And those were better than his 2nd day picks. Randal, Hosley, , Hankins, Moore, Richberg, Bromley, Collins, Odigizuwa, Shepard, Thompson, Tomlinson, Webb. Certainly not all misses but nothing to brag about.
is overblown IMO. He is obviously amazing and we would be so much better with him. But remember, he came into the perfect situation.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
Giants beat the Packers in the opening round in 2016
I agree with this. I think that 2016 team was pretty good with the defense and they just didn't luck out playing Green Bay/Rodgers in the first round. Oh well.
I was excited for that 2017 season, as I was 2023. Holy shit. Both were/are God awful.
Then again, I watched basically every 2017 game. I gave up on the 2023 Giants weeks ago lol the last game I watched was in Miami when I was there. Didn't go down there for the game, if ya smell what the Route 9 is cooking?
To me, the 2016 season feels very much like 2022, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Not in how they played so much as that it was a complete mirage that unfortunately convinced the organization they were better than they actually were.
I clearly remember watching that 2016 season and feeling very much like they were doing it with smoke and mirrors. The offense was not good. At all. The defense held it together by being the best unit in the NFL in the redzone, but they were just okay at pressuring QBs, and if you recall in that playoff game, Aaron Rodgers spent HOURS standing around in the pocket with nobody near him for most of the game. They got exposed big time.
is overblown IMO. He is obviously amazing and we would be so much better with him. But remember, he came into the perfect situation.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
he is doing just fine with little or no wide receivers. He is great and would have been an altering presence. That was the biggest mistake in the last ten years--even more than hiring Gettleman and Judge, who had no business being a head coach in this league at that point in his career. All three were bad errors, but drafting a QB like Mahommes is franchise altering.
is overblown IMO. He is obviously amazing and we would be so much better with him. But remember, he came into the perfect situation.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
he is doing just fine with little or no wide receivers. He is great and would have been an altering presence. That was the biggest mistake in the last ten years--even more than hiring Gettleman and Judge, who had no business being a head coach in this league at that point in his career. All three were bad errors, but drafting a QB like Mahommes is franchise altering.
He still has the best TE in the game. And having Hill, Kelce, and a few others when he was young was definitely very beneficial.
One simple thing — I let coughlin coach the 2016 giants
If it falls apart I sack both coughlin and Reese at the same time.
Sign the same players. Sign Vernon/snacks and Jack rabbit. We win playoff games in 2016 if coughlin is the coach. We never hire mcadoo, who was a mess in waiting.
Go from there. I know everyone says this is nuts. At the very least keeping coughlin for 16 stops the brutal and ending dominos of failed hire after failed hire.
I think this was the turning point and where any alignment in the origination ended. This was when Mara said the offense was "broken" and made the comments about Jernigan.
It was not productive to force staff changes on Coughlin at that point. Everyone should have gotten 2014 to sink and swim. And if you wanted to give them 2015 too, fine. That's Reese, Coughlin, Gilbride, etc. Fewell ended up getting scapegoated the next year.
This is when the priority became "fixing Eli" instead of winning. We've seen similar moves with Jones in recent years.
This isn’t a bad idea either. It stops the mcadoo mess.
No Gettleman means Eli is potentially replaced with a new QB in 2018.
And even if a different GM keeps Eli, no Gettleman means the #2 pick could have been shopped properly and used volume of picks to reset team instead of picking a RB.
No Gettleman means no ridiculous contract/deals for Solder, Ogletree, Golladay and Leonard Williams to name a few big ones.
Don't hire Dave Gettleman.
Realise at the time of going into the 2018 draft that the Giants are not a couple of players away from competing for a Superbowl, and recognise instead - as many fans did - that the roster needs an overhaul, hence you absolutely do not draft a runningback with that #2 pick.
I think I agree with you most. Lots of good choices. But I'd even say that IF gettleman had started the rebuild with the Barkley pic(either getting more or going OL) perhaps he wouldn't have been so bad. But then Shurmur and Solder and sealing it with Toney.
I think I would add, not having our Owner so attached to the QB position. His influence with keeping the last two starters around too long(both of which I was in for) may have changed the tragectory, in hindsight. Seems some teams have been smarter about parting ways a year too soon rather than 2 years too late. On the flip side, QB hell wasn't a great place to be back in the late '90s.
I would have let Carolina get more into FG range so their kicker makes that kick in the last game of the year 2008 and we would have played the Cardinals instead of the Eagles.
Was passing on Micah Parsons. Think about us as a smart organization that drafted Josh Allen and Micah Parsons. If we had done that alone, we would be an excellent team right now. Because now we could have mot drafted Daniel Jones also. Which would have alowed us to bolster the team talent. Particularly the offensive line.
Yeah.. I would've accepted the benching of Eli and started the process of finding a new QB in 2017.. Plus I won't have interfered with coaches in deciding who starts and who doesn't.. Also this would've stopped from DG ever being hired..
With the benefit of hindsight I would have cleaned house after 2012 and given the entire operation to Belichick or Andy Reid. Remember, Reid was actually FIRED after 2012.
But more realistically my wrist moment of that past decade was the Barkley pick. That draft was the fork in the road, the opportunity to begin a new project from the ground floor. What they actually did was so colossally stupid it set the direction for where we are now.
I know its 11 years ago. Our OL was clearly in decline despite winning the super bowl and Reese went with the shiny new toy in David Wilson and ignored guys like Mitchell Schwartz and Cordy Glenn who could have really help re-establish our OL.
The we took Randle in the 2nd - he was awful
Hosley in the 3rd - awful
JPP of TEs in the 4th - awful
4 chances to shore up the OL, and got nothing.
I couldn't have said it better then myself. Literally, before opening this thread it was the Wilson luxury pick.
John Mara's covering of his tracks with the Eli benching.
That Giant's team was on pace to be the best Giants team in franchise history.
Plax was right in having the gun. It was a dangerous night club. After all, he did get shot there.
Dumb for him to have the gun with poor safety and no license . Though people forget a few players had been robbed or attempts had happen. They were starting to be on alert.
To me, the 2016 season feels very much like 2022, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Not in how they played so much as that it was a complete mirage that unfortunately convinced the organization they were better than they actually were.
I clearly remember watching that 2016 season and feeling very much like they were doing it with smoke and mirrors. The offense was not good. At all. The defense held it together by being the best unit in the NFL in the redzone, but they were just okay at pressuring QBs, and if you recall in that playoff game, Aaron Rodgers spent HOURS standing around in the pocket with nobody near him for most of the game. They got exposed big time.
Let's not leave out the drops and the offense leaving points off the board in that game. The only ones who showed up to play on offense that day were Eli Manning, Victor Cruz and Will Tye.
We won the Superbowl in 2011. As awful as the 2012 draft was, it at least made sense from the standpoint of patching a championship team and letting them take another crack at it as is. And IIRC that team did start well before the wheels fell off.
But that should've been the sign to commit to a real rebuild. Instead the team continued with the idea of "patch things and hope Eli can pull a rabbit out of a hat." Every decision this team made - including hiring a familiar face in Gettleman as GM, or hiring Shurmur to "fix" an old Eli, can be traced to this idea.
Then when it was abundantly clear even to the Giants that Eli was shot, they picked ultimately the wrong QB to build around in Jones. And then had no plan whatsoever beyond that.
To mimic the "Take the gun from Plax" how about a "get that gas mask
The offense with Eli at the helm had been dysfunctional since the last super bowl. In reality the offensive numbers, particularly in 2015, were inflated by yards picked up in garbage time when games were already out of reach. And in games where they were competitive, having Odell on the field during his early years really masked a lot of the issues.
Beckham on his own extended Eli's career past it's expiration point - it would have been much clearer that it was time to find a replacement for Eli sooner rather than later had the offense been left to try and function without the big plays that he generated.
It would also have meant the wheels likely fall off the bus sooner without having Beckham there as a playmaker, and in all likelihood the Giants would have been searching for a new GM a year or two earlier. In which case they would have missed out on Dave Gettleman who was still tied up in Carolina.
I don't think there was any way to avoid at least some pain over the past 10 years, but ultimately the biggest mistake in this franchise's history was hiring Gettleman (we're probably looking at 2025 as the earliest this team will be able to fully recover from the decisions that he made as GM). And I think that mistake was precipitated by sticking with Eli as the starter for slightly too long.
He leaves and with this supposedly tragic offensive line Coughlin (assuming McAdoo was more passenger) gets the offense +5 and +8 better the next two years.
Snee played pretty well in 2012 until he got hurt. But yeah the heads in the sand on 2013 was unforgivable.
Quote:
The Gettleman hire was THE worst hire in this franchise's history. & the whole process that led to DG was a complete & utter joke.
Come on. Ernie searched near and far for that schlub.
I think you mean near and nearer.
Realise at the time of going into the 2018 draft that the Giants are not a couple of players away from competing for a Superbowl, and recognise instead - as many fans did - that the roster needs an overhaul, hence you absolutely do not draft a runningback with that #2 pick.
Another great one.
That Giant's team was on pace to be the best Giants team in franchise history.
The other is Eli Apple over Laremy Tunsil.
Quote:
The possible trade for Mahomes is interesting but there’s no guarantee he’d be the same with the Giants’ coaches. Everything else mentioned is still fixable … not taking Parsons is not.
I am not sure that the only difference between Mahomes and Jones is coaching.. many things Mahomes does cannot be coached.. may be just may be he is really that good..
I’m not comparing Mahomes and DJ … Mahomes is a very special talent, clearly the best in the league right now; but a lot of it is because of Andy Reid.
It was not productive to force staff changes on Coughlin at that point. Everyone should have gotten 2014 to sink and swim. And if you wanted to give them 2015 too, fine. That's Reese, Coughlin, Gilbride, etc. Fewell ended up getting scapegoated the next year.
This is when the priority became "fixing Eli" instead of winning. We've seen similar moves with Jones in recent years.
I'm similar, Gilbride was a scapegoat of another terrible OL. That said, worse than that was the fact that they spent that money on defense after letting Coughlin go in 2016. If he is still the head coach in 2016 I think they had a shot to make a good run in the playoffs. And I echo others that Gettleman was the worst hire in NY Giants FO history.
However, If I recall correctly, Justin Tuck was thinking of shutting it down for 2011 in mid December due to a neck issue and Coughlin talked him out of it. Osi was vocal. The O-Line was running on fumes. It felt like we squeezed the last bit of toothpaste out of that tube.
Starting a rebuild or retool in 2012 may have been the way to go. I believe the Ravens did this after 2012.
The fact that Reese gets brought up here like he's an equal to Gettleman is ridiculous.
Really? Go look at 2012 - 17. Yikes! Wilson, Pugh, OBJ, Flowers, Apple, Engram. And those were better than his 2nd day picks. Randal, Hosley, , Hankins, Moore, Richberg, Bromley, Collins, Odigizuwa, Shepard, Thompson, Tomlinson, Webb. Certainly not all misses but nothing to brag about.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
Quote:
From Plaxico
Another great one.
That Giant's team was on pace to be the best Giants team in franchise history.
Plax was right in having the gun. It was a dangerous night club. After all, he did get shot there.
Quote:
Giants beat the Packers in the opening round in 2016
I agree with this. I think that 2016 team was pretty good with the defense and they just didn't luck out playing Green Bay/Rodgers in the first round. Oh well.
I was excited for that 2017 season, as I was 2023. Holy shit. Both were/are God awful.
Then again, I watched basically every 2017 game. I gave up on the 2023 Giants weeks ago lol the last game I watched was in Miami when I was there. Didn't go down there for the game, if ya smell what the Route 9 is cooking?
To me, the 2016 season feels very much like 2022, especially with the benefit of hindsight. Not in how they played so much as that it was a complete mirage that unfortunately convinced the organization they were better than they actually were.
I clearly remember watching that 2016 season and feeling very much like they were doing it with smoke and mirrors. The offense was not good. At all. The defense held it together by being the best unit in the NFL in the redzone, but they were just okay at pressuring QBs, and if you recall in that playoff game, Aaron Rodgers spent HOURS standing around in the pocket with nobody near him for most of the game. They got exposed big time.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
he is doing just fine with little or no wide receivers. He is great and would have been an altering presence. That was the biggest mistake in the last ten years--even more than hiring Gettleman and Judge, who had no business being a head coach in this league at that point in his career. All three were bad errors, but drafting a QB like Mahommes is franchise altering.
Quote:
is overblown IMO. He is obviously amazing and we would be so much better with him. But remember, he came into the perfect situation.
- contending team
- sat for a year
- hill and kelce on the roster
- andy reid as a coach.
If drafted by us, he would have had shitbird coaches with a shitty roster. One can never say what would have happened, but I think a lot of bad habits and wasted years would have happend to Mahomes if drafted by us.
he is doing just fine with little or no wide receivers. He is great and would have been an altering presence. That was the biggest mistake in the last ten years--even more than hiring Gettleman and Judge, who had no business being a head coach in this league at that point in his career. All three were bad errors, but drafting a QB like Mahommes is franchise altering.
He still has the best TE in the game. And having Hill, Kelce, and a few others when he was young was definitely very beneficial.
Sign the same players. Sign Vernon/snacks and Jack rabbit. We win playoff games in 2016 if coughlin is the coach. We never hire mcadoo, who was a mess in waiting.
Go from there. I know everyone says this is nuts. At the very least keeping coughlin for 16 stops the brutal and ending dominos of failed hire after failed hire.
We have never replaced coughlin.
It was not productive to force staff changes on Coughlin at that point. Everyone should have gotten 2014 to sink and swim. And if you wanted to give them 2015 too, fine. That's Reese, Coughlin, Gilbride, etc. Fewell ended up getting scapegoated the next year.
This is when the priority became "fixing Eli" instead of winning. We've seen similar moves with Jones in recent years.
This isn’t a bad idea either. It stops the mcadoo mess.
And even if a different GM keeps Eli, no Gettleman means the #2 pick could have been shopped properly and used volume of picks to reset team instead of picking a RB.
No Gettleman means no ridiculous contract/deals for Solder, Ogletree, Golladay and Leonard Williams to name a few big ones.
No Gettleman means no Daniel Jones.
No Gettleman means no Kadarius Toney.
Realise at the time of going into the 2018 draft that the Giants are not a couple of players away from competing for a Superbowl, and recognise instead - as many fans did - that the roster needs an overhaul, hence you absolutely do not draft a runningback with that #2 pick.
I think I agree with you most. Lots of good choices. But I'd even say that IF gettleman had started the rebuild with the Barkley pic(either getting more or going OL) perhaps he wouldn't have been so bad. But then Shurmur and Solder and sealing it with Toney.
I think I would add, not having our Owner so attached to the QB position. His influence with keeping the last two starters around too long(both of which I was in for) may have changed the tragectory, in hindsight. Seems some teams have been smarter about parting ways a year too soon rather than 2 years too late. On the flip side, QB hell wasn't a great place to be back in the late '90s.
Yeah.. I would've accepted the benching of Eli and started the process of finding a new QB in 2017.. Plus I won't have interfered with coaches in deciding who starts and who doesn't.. Also this would've stopped from DG ever being hired..
With a real HC, I agree.
McAdoo was losing his team in 2016.
But more realistically my wrist moment of that past decade was the Barkley pick. That draft was the fork in the road, the opportunity to begin a new project from the ground floor. What they actually did was so colossally stupid it set the direction for where we are now.
The moron made error after error all having long standing and cascading effects to the organization.
Eli would have had 2-3 good years, DJ would have had at least that as well.
I know its 11 years ago. Our OL was clearly in decline despite winning the super bowl and Reese went with the shiny new toy in David Wilson and ignored guys like Mitchell Schwartz and Cordy Glenn who could have really help re-establish our OL.
The we took Randle in the 2nd - he was awful
Hosley in the 3rd - awful
JPP of TEs in the 4th - awful
4 chances to shore up the OL, and got nothing.
Quote:
In comment 16291939 Gmanfandan said:
Quote:
From Plaxico
Another great one.
That Giant's team was on pace to be the best Giants team in franchise history.
Plax was right in having the gun. It was a dangerous night club. After all, he did get shot there.
Dumb for him to have the gun with poor safety and no license . Though people forget a few players had been robbed or attempts had happen. They were starting to be on alert.
I clearly remember watching that 2016 season and feeling very much like they were doing it with smoke and mirrors. The offense was not good. At all. The defense held it together by being the best unit in the NFL in the redzone, but they were just okay at pressuring QBs, and if you recall in that playoff game, Aaron Rodgers spent HOURS standing around in the pocket with nobody near him for most of the game. They got exposed big time.
Let's not leave out the drops and the offense leaving points off the board in that game. The only ones who showed up to play on offense that day were Eli Manning, Victor Cruz and Will Tye.
Yeah, that Hail Mary was pathetic.
We won the Superbowl in 2011. As awful as the 2012 draft was, it at least made sense from the standpoint of patching a championship team and letting them take another crack at it as is. And IIRC that team did start well before the wheels fell off.
But that should've been the sign to commit to a real rebuild. Instead the team continued with the idea of "patch things and hope Eli can pull a rabbit out of a hat." Every decision this team made - including hiring a familiar face in Gettleman as GM, or hiring Shurmur to "fix" an old Eli, can be traced to this idea.
Then when it was abundantly clear even to the Giants that Eli was shot, they picked ultimately the wrong QB to build around in Jones. And then had no plan whatsoever beyond that.
Quote:
From Plaxico
Another great one.
That Giant's team was on pace to be the best Giants team in franchise history.
John Madden said of Plaxico Burress, "If you cover Plaxico Burress with only one defender, he's essentially open on every play."
Beckham on his own extended Eli's career past it's expiration point - it would have been much clearer that it was time to find a replacement for Eli sooner rather than later had the offense been left to try and function without the big plays that he generated.
It would also have meant the wheels likely fall off the bus sooner without having Beckham there as a playmaker, and in all likelihood the Giants would have been searching for a new GM a year or two earlier. In which case they would have missed out on Dave Gettleman who was still tied up in Carolina.
I don't think there was any way to avoid at least some pain over the past 10 years, but ultimately the biggest mistake in this franchise's history was hiring Gettleman (we're probably looking at 2025 as the earliest this team will be able to fully recover from the decisions that he made as GM). And I think that mistake was precipitated by sticking with Eli as the starter for slightly too long.