This is from the podcast today linked below (discussion starts at the 16:50 minute mark). Bobby Skinner said he heard that John Mara believes Schoen picked his QB when they gave Jones $160M. This is likely why some of these stories have come out (Vachhiano) and Banks/Papa on twitter defending Jones.
This is really where this contract is a disaster if this is the view from ownership. Schoen & Daboll have 4 months to convince Mara otherwise (I think they will).
But, Skinner made a good point - Jones will be in the building rehabbing and working hard. I'm sure ownership will eat that up.
Link - (
New Window )
It's funny cause listening to the giant insider podcast Chris B pretty much said the opposite but who knows.
We will see next spring.
This.
But if I were the owner, and my GM said we should sign our quarterback for 160mil, and 6 months later tells me we need new quarterback, I d be a bit miffed too.
If this as being perceived as typical Mara interference, I think that is an unreasonable take
In fact, if this is true and Giants draft a quarterback, it will turn out that Mara is not at all like the Maranoia, people believe
I'm hoping they have a frank discussion about the season, and how they have an opportunity to improve in a way that they never expected last year when they signed him.
This never would even be a consideration 20 years ago, but recently teams are more willing to pivot and draft/sign/trade etc... earlier than trying to make it work and failing.
49ers trade 3 1st round picks to trade up and draft Lance, then 2 years later they trade him for pennies on the dollar. (Sidebar: do they make this trade if they didn't have Purdy?)
Cardinals draft Kyler Murray a year after taking Josh Rosen. Murray was considered a can't miss player and so they cut bait on Rosen a year later. Granted, they had a new HC, but they were willing to grab the guy they wanted regardless of who was in the building.
The Giants were in a similar situation when they drafted Eli. Collins was in the building, and was still able to have success, but EA knew that you never let anything get in the way of taking a HOF QB.
I think if you have the opportunity to make your team better exponentially, then you have to do it.
Can you imagine the reaction across the NFL if that happened?
Clearly the signing was predicated on Jones continued improvement, which didn't happen. In fact, he actually looked worse than at anytime with the Giants. Throw in two serious injuries.
No doubt John will be in WTF mode, but shit happens. Players get hurt and they fail. The contract was structured(and he would know this) to be able to get out after two years. I am sure that was explained to him.
I'm hoping they have a frank discussion about the season, and how they have an opportunity to improve in a way that they never expected last year when they signed him.
This never would even be a consideration 20 years ago, but recently teams are more willing to pivot and draft/sign/trade etc... earlier than trying to make it work and failing.
49ers trade 3 1st round picks to trade up and draft Lance, then 2 years later they trade him for pennies on the dollar. (Sidebar: do they make this trade if they didn't have Purdy?)
Cardinals draft Kyler Murray a year after taking Josh Rosen. Murray was considered a can't miss player and so they cut bait on Rosen a year later. Granted, they had a new HC, but they were willing to grab the guy they wanted regardless of who was in the building.
The Giants were in a similar situation when they drafted Eli. Collins was in the building, and was still able to have success, but EA knew that you never let anything get in the way of taking a HOF QB.
I think if you have the opportunity to make your team better exponentially, then you have to do it.
I like Jones and understand that with an at least avg OL he can give you a shot to compete. However we have no backup at the moment QB (TT is nice but also prone to injury) and no DECENT developmental QB, so QB is a need since the one we have is injured and has a play style that increases the probability of another injury. Not to mention the latest injury is to one of his biggest assest. We go QB with either Drake or Williams if either is there. The real question is do you cluster draft in the 2nd rd for OL or use 1 2nder on a WR or OLB/DE?
Normally I am pro BPA but our OL is just bad bad and conventional thinking needs to be reconsidered. Jones or not no QB is going to thrive under the current OL conditons. Trade a 2nder for a vet OL (get a known entity). A 2nder during the draft has more value than in the off-season.
Yes, that and an army of other poor decisions to draw on as examples. When they picked Jones I feared for five seasons of bad football. I fear if they bypass a QB for Jones, we're staring at how many more before they get another opportunity to draft, and everyone is "comfortable" pulling the trigger.
How is Is structured explains that plan. They have to go through next season and can get out of it reasonably.
I have no doubt Schoen is scouting USC and UNC lately with a QB in mind.
2) The worst decisions by people in any line of business are made by those who double down or try to save face.
Although the sports are different and there's no salary cap in baseball, Mara can learn from what Steve Cohen did this past MLB season. Mets spent crazy money and went for it. Didn't work out. Didn't try to make silly trades at the deadline to save face. Ripped the band aid off and pivoted.
We all know Jones will be here, that's fine. I actually love a rookie QB hanging around a guy with the work ethic and character Jones possesses. He will be either an expensive backup QB or short term bridge QB and you hope by the middle of the year or next offseason Jones establishes some trade value. If not, you cut him before the 25 season and move on.
2 neck injuries and a torn ACL. A quarterback must be selected with a premium pick and given an opportunity to win the job. That's the way forward.
I thought for sure the Jones was Mara's guy - like the LL dad that played his son at SS (looked the part, even played well for stretches, but was mediocre at best)....
I thought the contract they gave DJ with the 2nd year out was a half-ass commitment and I was operating under the assumption that out was due Daboll/Schoen wanting it in there.
Time to move on. Barkley should have taken the Bye Week offer, but he didn't.
They are here now and lamenting does nothing.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
Injury can undermine any contract made by any GM
Any player ( except Mahomes) can be had for the right price.
that includes Williams and Maye. If they can get 3 ones or 2 ones and 2 twos for the pick they can fill a lot of holes
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
Sean, I hear you but I don't think it was a few games. Once they withheld the 5th year option, all of 2022 became an audition.
Now if you want to tell me, the Minnesota playoff game was his only sort of pro-bowl/all pro type performance, I'd probably agree with that, but he played the QB position very efficiently last year. Not to mention, each time Schoen and Daboll were asked about him their answer never wavered, "Daniel has done exactly what we've asked him to do". Now it's clear they didn't seem to be asking very much in terms of the offensive game plans, but then the question would become was that because of Jones or because of the skill people around him. With the contract they gave out it's clear they felt it was the latter. Even with that though, they still hedged with the 2-year out.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
You are all over the place man. Schoen signed Jones to what amounts to a 2 year deal at market value. Jones had just brought the Giants to the last 4 teams of the NFC conference by playing great down the stretch until the Eagles killed us. He had played the first year in Daboll's system and looked comfortable. I imagine both him and Daboll were comfortable with him as the QB for the following two seasons and did not expect this season to go as it did with injuries and poor play. Tell me how he misjudged this thing so poorly? Tell me what you would have done differently that would have been so much better for the franchise? You franchise tag Jones? OK, so then you basically have what, 1 less year? That doesn't mean much.
I knew what you meant and I agree with your sentiments 100%.
I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
Yea but what you're referencing is the short-term/long-term tight rope they were walking, they wanted Jones and Barkley here this year. They felt they threaded the needle.
2025 is not insignificant but it's also not worth everyone running around here with their hair on fire. If they take the QB like they need to, they'll be ok.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
It would have been a risk to do the unpopular thing, and I understand why a rookie GM/HC went along with it. They don't have the pelts on the wall to have earned the benefit of the doubt.
Their presumptions : 1. Jones proved he wasn’t injury prone . 2. They would not be slotted high enough to get one of the QBs in the next draft . Here, they were misled by their success last year . Both presumptions were wrong . They were wrong on Waller . They were also wrong about the state of the offensive line . I’ll set aside the defense for now as that involved another set of complications .
The Giants are in a terrible spot . Ownership must be seething . Perhaps they don’t have a right to be but they do own it ..
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
That contract (and FA addition/trade) signifies to me the expectation was to be a good team and one that competes for a division or is at least playing meaningful games at the end for a playoff spot.
More of the discussion should be centered on all the other aspects of the team and not just Jones imv. This includes coaching.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
Well - you are of the opinion that it was a fuck up. I am not there yet.
Quote:
IMO.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
It would have been a risk to do the unpopular thing, and I understand why a rookie GM/HC went along with it. They don't have the pelts on the wall to have earned the benefit of the doubt.
100% IMO.
Seems like we have trouble finding GMs/HCs who have had previous success...
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
I have a hard time believing they fall out of the top 3 and with Daniels rocketing up draft boards they should be guaranteed one of those guys.
And as much as people scream about it, if there is a guy they really like among the McCarthy, Nix, Penix group you can go Harrison or Edge and then get one of those guys in the 2nd or slide back in late round 1 with the extra 2.
Should be plenty of options.
Their presumptions : 1. Jones proved he wasn’t injury prone . 2. They would not be slotted high enough to get one of the QBs in the next draft . Here, they were misled by their success last year . Both presumptions were wrong . They were wrong on Waller . They were also wrong about the state of the offensive line . I’ll set aside the defense for now as that involved another set of complications .
The Giants are in a terrible spot . Ownership must be seething . Perhaps they don’t have a right to be but they do own it ..
Sure looked like it when he flipped the iPad in his direction...
I cannot see Daboll backing Jones whatsoever.
That contract (and FA addition/trade) signifies to me the expectation was to be a good team and one that competes for a division or is at least playing meaningful games at the end for a playoff spot.
More of the discussion should be centered on all the other aspects of the team and not just Jones imv. This includes coaching.
Agreed.
Quote:
LOL Ryan's a big spoofer.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
Well - you are of the opinion that it was a fuck up. I am not there yet.
LOL what?
Why would you love drafting a quarterback if Jones wasn't a mistake?
I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
With the benefit of hindsight, sure, in some ways it would've been better to tag him in 2023. But suppose Jones had another season like 22 this year? We are probably looking at $45m++ AAV and we don't get either Thomas or Lawrence done in the last offseason.
With a ~$280 million cap in 2025, and presumably a QB on a rookie deal, $22m is a big hit, but it's totally manageable for one season.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
If that's the case, this organization is a bigger clown show than it's current perception.
Let me explain. I'm totally on board with Williams or Maye. Don't want anyone else. But I also think Jones can be a winning quarterback and wouldn't care if they continued to build up the team around him. They are paying him for next year and a small-ish dead cap for 2025.
So, yeah, I don't necessarily think it was a mistake. Jones tore his knee against the Raiders, Taylor is hurt, we are playing with a third string quarterback. Jones hurt his neck earlier in the season because he had been pressured about 25 times per fucking game.
So, that's my opinion dude. Get the fuck over it already.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
The fact that they would be looking to draft his successor has more to do with the top 2 players at the position and the fact that the team is horrendous this year, and it would possibly be malpractice not to take Williams or Maye considering they are much better prospects than Jones.
If Maye or Williams aren't in this draft, they probably aren't even considering it.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
I think Schoen has an eye for talent to fair degree with how he's building front office, but its clear there's been some "learning curve" on some of the machinations of roster management, philosophy, etc.
The contract for Jones made no sense and still in retrospect makes no sense even moreso - even forgetting about the injury problems in past and this year. I don't care what other franchises are doing with QB scale. Jones never deserved what he got.
There's no reason Jones should have gotten anything more than 25m per season for 2 years. Defies logic to give a QB that much money and then hedge on idea and belief that he needs a lot of help around him to simply "elevate" and win big games. He needs a lot of help and control to win games, period. Thats a mediocre QB if there ever was one, and Jones, just "is" as Sy likes to say.
It also continues to be highly offensive when people say the Giants "broke" Jones. Wrong. The organization just makes wrong decisions, which "breaks" the fanbase, which includes drafting Jones and believing he's a guy to keep going on and on and running it back with.
Haha...right. So I answer your question like I always do for the 100th time, that you still somehow don't understand, and target all of my posts because of it...and now you are gaslighting me about being angry. Give me a break dude. Just leave it be.
Simms11 - I don't disagree. This more to Mara and Tisch. How do they go to ownership? They shouldn't have to, the results are on the field. It was the right decision at the time and now the landscape has changed.
It happens, I've seen it.
Giants will have their new QB that Schoen (and ultimately Daboll) will sink or swim with in for 2024.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
Why is it a tricky spot?
Is QB a need? You make the decision NOW.
It's only as tricky as you want to make it.
Schoen might realize that trading for future 1s could be the best move. I don't know. But to think of how many elite type talented players you could add to your team over time with trading down is enticing, if someone wants to do it.
The roster the last 10 years has been really top heavy plauyers 1-4 and then nothing for players 5-22. Could be the perfect time to change that.
There are pros and cons to both.
There ya go.
That's why it not tricky at all. Admit the mistake and move on.
What do they say, the cover up is always worse that the actual crime?
If the Giants attempt to "cover this up" they'll hurt themselves even more and send the team into more years of pre Halloween elimination.
I suspect if the Giants felt Jones was a top tier quarterback, an ACL and neck strain wouldn't be cause to move on.
So, I get it, QB likely needs to be the pick if Maye or Williams are staring them in the face. But nothing is a guarantee with any player and there's something to be said for setting your franchise up for massive draft capital if that offer is there.
Quote:
He got injured twice, both serious. We will have one of the top 2 picks in the draft. Changes everything.
I suspect if the Giants felt Jones was a top tier quarterback, an ACL and neck strain wouldn't be cause to move on.
Not sure. That’s his second neck injury. Another could end his career. The knee not only means he probably won’t be ready to start next year but likely compromises his mobility which is key for him. We’ll see.
So, I get it, QB likely needs to be the pick if Maye or Williams are staring them in the face. But nothing is a guarantee with any player and there's something to be said for setting your franchise up for massive draft capital if that offer is there.
The difference is Jones was not a slotted top 10 pick.
They reached, and it has failed overall. Sometimes a reach works, this did not.
These guys are, and at the very top of the rung.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
The franchise tag also doesn’t have a cap hit into 2025. So it’s not “one year less”.
It was a big mistake that can’t be hand waived away like nothing is wrong. That being said, I have faith in Schoen to get it right.
1. Jones is injury prone with his style of play
2. He didnt elevate the team (yes the OL is bad) enough as a franchise QB
But seeing that it had a 2 year "out", Im suspecting they were hedging on Jones...give him 2 years to show it under new leadership. If he fails then draft another QB.
With his injuries, It moves this process along faster. I would think ownership and Coach and GM can agree on that moving forward.
Paying a guy that doesn't work out 82M for two years, when could have paid 32M for one is a big mistake.
The year isn't finished. I could list a bunch of what ifs.
What if Daboll breaks down over the next 7 weeks and has a Judge meltdown?
DeVito starts playing really well.
Tyrod comes back and we win out?
Andrew Thomas comes back and blows his ACL?
More players make business decision, sit out games for boo boo's and lose every remaining game by at least 20(most likely of the what ifs)
Personally, I would draft QB.
What if they get the first pick and trade it away for the biggest haul in history? Are we much farther than a QB away?
What if the Bills offer us Josh Allen for the first pick in the draft?
Ignoring everything said on BBI.
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
he was just coming off a neck injury in which we had no idea the severity of and even when he played in 2021, it was rather middling.
Yeah with the benefit of hindsight Schoen should have done so, but it wouldn’t have made sense to do it then
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
Seems like taking a break could be good for you too, amigo.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
the 5th year option was the right move for Jones. 2 yr prove it is better for the team. and would have been cheaper.
The year isn't finished. I could list a bunch of what ifs.
What if Daboll breaks down over the next 7 weeks and has a Judge meltdown?
DeVito starts playing really well.
Tyrod comes back and we win out?
Andrew Thomas comes back and blows his ACL?
More players make business decision, sit out games for boo boo's and lose every remaining game by at least 20(most likely of the what ifs)
Personally, I would draft QB.
What if they get the first pick and trade it away for the biggest haul in history? Are we much farther than a QB away?
What if the Bills offer us Josh Allen for the first pick in the draft?
Ignoring everything said on BBI.
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
Your posts are brutal. In what you say and how you say it.
just brutal
he was just coming off a neck injury in which we had no idea the severity of and even when he played in 2021, it was rather middling.
Yeah with the benefit of hindsight Schoen should have done so, but it wouldn’t have made sense to do it then
DG decision to set the WR market on a guy no one else was interested in was a mistake regardless of hindsight.
They had a front row seat for Jones in 2022. It was a reasonable decision and a good contract. I am sure Jones hits NONE of the incentives.
It would have been a very risky move not to bring Jones back after he won that playoff game, I though Schoen did well. They were NEVER letting him walk after that game, and no GM would have let him go. You folks playing Madden on BBI don't live in reality.
This team had sucked for a decade and won a playoff game. Jones was coming back after that. I thought Schoen did well in negotiations.
* Jones improved in 2022 and won a playoff game, moving on from him after this would have been tremendously difficult in the public eye
* Due to draft position and what was available on the open market, there was no real path to upgrading the QB position this year that wouldn't involve some sort of risk
* The contract signed, as expected, wound up being a middle of the road contract for QBs once things shook out
* The contract also noticeably has an out after year 2
Regardless of all the reports we've seen, my gut says that they were never really THAT committed to Jones and had no intention of him playing out all 4 years of this contract. Its more likely that the plan was for Jones to be a stop gap to buy them 1 to 2 more years before they could get their franchise guy with the upside that if he took another jump from 2022, you could just extend him and keep him.
If Schoen really felt that this was HIS guy, I think the contract would have been longer than 4 years and wouldn't have taken until the last minute to sign. This never struck me as an "all in" contract.
* Jones improved in 2022 and won a playoff game, moving on from him after this would have been tremendously difficult in the public eye
* Due to draft position and what was available on the open market, there was no real path to upgrading the QB position this year that wouldn't involve some sort of risk
* The contract signed, as expected, wound up being a middle of the road contract for QBs once things shook out
* The contract also noticeably has an out after year 2
Regardless of all the reports we've seen, my gut says that they were never really THAT committed to Jones and had no intention of him playing out all 4 years of this contract. Its more likely that the plan was for Jones to be a stop gap to buy them 1 to 2 more years before they could get their franchise guy with the upside that if he took another jump from 2022, you could just extend him and keep him.
If Schoen really felt that this was HIS guy, I think the contract would have been longer than 4 years and wouldn't have taken until the last minute to sign. This never struck me as an "all in" contract.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
There are pros and cons to both.
That’s fair, I just think it is easier to fill one position than half a dozen. SF is a great example, but they were able to find studs like Deebo, Kittle and Warner in later rounds. That didn’t preclude them from giving up a massive package to get Trey Lance.
If we have the chance to get a game changing QB, we have to take that shot.
1) The Giants would be complete morons to actively say they are looking at QBs in the draft at this point in time. There a variety of obvious reasons for that.
2) If you have a top 3 pick and have a chance at a QB you think can be top 5 in the league you have to take him unless you already have a top 5 guy. I like Jones a lot, but he isn't even top 10 when at his best and not injured.
3) I wouldn't be surprised to see Daniel Jones ready for week 1 (he'll work his ass off to get there) and starting even if they pick a QB on round 1. It depends whether or not the Giants are willing to have another down year, record wise. It would be hard for them to watch a rookie go through his struggles while your backup QB is sitting there counting $40MM against the cap, or whatever it is.
Quote:
but my prior post is meant to say the optics of such a choice could easily be put on the GM/HC.
If this is true, and Mara was told that DJ is their QB of the future, then ownership should be pissed.
1. Jones is injury prone with his style of play
2. He didnt elevate the team (yes the OL is bad) enough as a franchise QB
But seeing that it had a 2 year "out", Im suspecting they were hedging on Jones...give him 2 years to show it under new leadership. If he fails then draft another QB.
With his injuries, It moves this process along faster. I would think ownership and Coach and GM can agree on that moving forward.
Or you could look at it the other way, ownership wanted them to roll with Jones (not arguing that they forced it), but GM/HC pay for what the front office wanted.
Most everyone here saw the contract for what it was, to keep the DJ in the building for a couple of years to see if a) they could bring his level of play up, or b) look for a replacement. If Mara couldn’t see that, it’s on him.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
1) The Giants would be complete morons to actively say they are looking at QBs in the draft at this point in time. There a variety of obvious reasons for that.
2) If you have a top 3 pick and have a chance at a QB you think can be top 5 in the league you have to take him unless you already have a top 5 guy. I like Jones a lot, but he isn't even top 10 when at his best and not injured.
3) I wouldn't be surprised to see Daniel Jones ready for week 1 (he'll work his ass off to get there) and starting even if they pick a QB on round 1. It depends whether or not the Giants are willing to have another down year, record wise. It would be hard for them to watch a rookie go through his struggles while your backup QB is sitting there counting $40MM against the cap, or whatever it is.
On point 3, why would we think an ACL recovering Jones would be better for the Giants record than a rookie?
Quote:
Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
Quote:
In comment 16292166 christian said:
Quote:
Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
Within this you touch on the disadvantage of playing in NYC. In Buffalo you let Tyrod walk, maybe one reporter writes an article criticizing, that's it.
In NYC/North Jersey, you wind up having the whole world picking apart this decision, talking about it on TV, calling for heads etc... The Giants ownership has always been very sensitive to this whether they should or shouldn't be.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
It's not like a crop of corn. You don't always get good QBs every year.
Can't just punt to 2025.
When the draft spot (+/-) and talent intersect, you have to act.
First, Jones played like garbage. Like the 32nd best QB in a 32 team league.
Then, he got hurt. Twice.
Stop the rationalizing. Be honest. You're not fooling anybody but yourselves.
Quote:
Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
Nonsense. It's a terrible contract.
Quote:
In comment 16292166 christian said:
Quote:
Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
NAME DATE ROUND TM OPP REC W% CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD TD% INT INT% SCK SCKY RATE
Tyrod Taylor illustrationTyrod Taylor
1/7/2018 AFC Wild Card
BUF logoBUF
@
JAX logoJAX
0-1 .000 17 37 45.9 134 3.6 0 0.0 1 2.7 2 15 44.2
Are you sure he won and played well?
At what point in the season did Mara know he wanted Jones for the long haul?
"I had a lot of confidence that he was our guy," Mara said. "We obviously made the decision not to exercise the fifth-year option (last year). I couldn't have been more pleased that he played as well as he did. I think it became pretty apparent, by midseason anyway, that he was going to be the guy.
Mara went on about this at some length without ever mentioning Joe Schoen.
If any selling was being done, once the season was over, who would have been doing it?
As for Tyrod Taylor and the 2017 Bills, Taylor was benched mid-season (when healthy) because Sean McDermott didn't want to watch him play QB anymore and gave Nate Peterman a try.
Peterman was horrendous, so Taylor got the job back. But Bills lost the playoff game 10-3, with Taylor completely ineffective.
Everyone in Buffalo wanted a new QB; no comparison to the Jones' controversy.
giants.com - ( New Window )
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Quote:
Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
Agreed 100%
I might be out.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Then one or both of Maye or Williams play like a generational talent while Hones continues to flounder with the basics of the position and Daboll is fired
Shoulda tagged him.
2) The worst decisions by people in any line of business are made by those who double down or try to save face.
Although the sports are different and there's no salary cap in baseball, Mara can learn from what Steve Cohen did this past MLB season. Mets spent crazy money and went for it. Didn't work out. Didn't try to make silly trades at the deadline to save face. Ripped the band aid off and pivoted.
We all know Jones will be here, that's fine. I actually love a rookie QB hanging around a guy with the work ethic and character Jones possesses. He will be either an expensive backup QB or short term bridge QB and you hope by the middle of the year or next offseason Jones establishes some trade value. If not, you cut him before the 25 season and move on.
2 neck injuries and a torn ACL. A quarterback must be selected with a premium pick and given an opportunity to win the job. That's the way forward.
Seems to me like the neck/ACL and possibility he's damaged goods from here on out should give Schoen cover to pivot to a rookie. Hoping Mara will see his way to agree.
But the ACL in combination with his concussion and neck injuries should at a minimum be the end of his career with the Giants. The running in fact puts Jones at a high risk of having a collision that could result in another concussion or neck injury.
As far as the contract itself, it's a disaster. He should have gotten the FT, even though that would have meant a $32.5M cap hit. Then try and sign Barkley. Now we can't release Jones until 2025, and even then with a $22M cap hit. And nobody is trading for Jones right now or probably ever.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
If you can get one those top 3 QBs you have to swing. All elite athletes with plus elusiveness and plus arms. Gotta do it.
Even if Jones comes back and wins the Superbowl, drafting a QB wont be a waste. Still a 1st round chip.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Jones showed enough last year to get more of a look-see. Schoen laid an extra $40M on the table to keep him around for an extra year or so rather than franchise him. Greater scheme of things, BFD.
As things worked out, it's a no brainer to go QB in '24, and we likely get our choice in a deep pool.
Hey, it's been a bumpy friggin ride, but thems the breaks.
If you look at this from their perspective drafting Drake Maye would be a quick and decisive admission of an error. It would not be characteristic of how the Giants operate.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
This would be a really tough pill to swallow.
Daboll deserves a lot of credit for Jones' improved play last year. It was the best he had looked in his 4 seasons in the league. So at the end of the day, if that man himself --Daboll-- believes it's in the teams best interest to move on, it would be flat out criminal to force a different decision on him. I'm not saying Daboll hasn't made plenty of mistakes, but last year he got more out of Jones than anyone else and Tyrod playing fairly well for him this year too. If the Owner thinks he knows better, he better keep those ideas to himself when push comes to shove.
As of right now, 3 of the top 5 QBs in football arugably are on the AFC teams and out of the playoff picture.
Jones showed enough last year to get more of a look-see. Schoen laid an extra $40M on the table to keep him around for an extra year or so rather than franchise him. Greater scheme of things, BFD.
As things worked out, it's a no brainer to go QB in '24, and we likely get our choice in a deep pool.
Hey, it's been a bumpy friggin ride, but thems the breaks.
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
+1. I’ll be following him out the door, not that that’s important.
Quote:
In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
Safe and loved isn't the NFL. They'll cast you aside when you are of no worth anymore.
Schoen has his pick of a franchise QB and you think he'll pass that up to keep an underperforming QB who is now coming off an ACL and two neck injuries.......that's fiction.
If it makes sense to us morons, it will make sense to a professional GM.
Quote:
At what point in the season did Mara know he wanted Jones for the long haul?
"I had a lot of confidence that he was our guy," Mara said. "We obviously made the decision not to exercise the fifth-year option (last year). I couldn't have been more pleased that he played as well as he did. I think it became pretty apparent, by midseason anyway, that he was going to be the guy.
Mara went on about this at some length without ever mentioning Joe Schoen.
If any selling was being done, once the season was over, who would have been doing it?
As for Tyrod Taylor and the 2017 Bills, Taylor was benched mid-season (when healthy) because Sean McDermott didn't want to watch him play QB anymore and gave Nate Peterman a try.
Peterman was horrendous, so Taylor got the job back. But Bills lost the playoff game 10-3, with Taylor completely ineffective.
Everyone in Buffalo wanted a new QB; no comparison to the Jones' controversy. giants.com - ( New Window )
It's just the Jurrell Jernigan quote all over again lmao.
The math is wonderful. Three years of mediocrity, but sold after 8 games of the 4th year.
He was always looking for a reason to 'right' about Jones.
Quote:
In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
If he played like the 12th best QB, it would be worth it.
The answer is "no fucking way".
Put yourself in the Giants' shoes. I'm not certain they're going to pass on a QB, but I think it's pretty damn far from certain they'll draft one.
Quote:
In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
Considering that, it was at least a reasonable signing.
Before you post an encyclopedia of stats, I will counter with his 2022 QBR. He played very well in 2022, YOUR WORDS WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT WE SAW AND FELT.
I equate greatness with wins and championships.
Michael over Lebron
Eli over Marino(I know this pisses people off, Marino is the best pure passer I ever saw but not a great leader.)
I do understand that this is a something we need to agree to disagree on. This argument has endured for ages. It is just who we are individually.
I'm sure Cowboys fans were sad to see Herschel Walker go, but his departure created the triplets.
We could only hope for such a haul for picks.
Everything falling apart is giving Schoen his do-over.
DJ coming back, getting hurt, the team hitting rock bottom in nearly all areas - Schoen has his moment.
Sometimes you have to be lucky.
The answer is "no fucking way".
Put yourself in the Giants' shoes. I'm not certain they're going to pass on a QB, but I think it's pretty damn far from certain they'll draft one.
Daniel Jones = Joe Burrow?
Smart business people are not emotionally tied to past decisions and they re-evaluate decisions as more information is received. I feel comfortable that Schoen will do that. If Mara doesn't, the abject failures of the past decade will keep repeating themselves over and over again.
Everything falling apart is giving Schoen his do-over.
DJ coming back, getting hurt, the team hitting rock bottom in nearly all areas - Schoen has his moment.
Sometimes you have to be lucky.
Furthermore, Schoen lived thru a situation where Buffalo did the exact same thing - drafted a QB high to be the franchise.
He'll follow thru here.
Quote:
If Joe Burrow tore his ACL last night would the Bengals draft a QB in the first round in April?
The answer is "no fucking way".
Put yourself in the Giants' shoes. I'm not certain they're going to pass on a QB, but I think it's pretty damn far from certain they'll draft one.
Daniel Jones = Joe Burrow?
Yeah - I don't think anyone thinks that...
And if the Giants brass do - we are in really, really bad shape.
You must love torturing yourself, or just others on this thread lol
Ownership has to let the GM pick the players.
Can you give a concrete example of that not happening?
Speculation doesn't count.
Just because Mara likes DJ doesn't mean he puts him ahead of the franchise.
Quote:
At what point in the season did Mara know he wanted Jones for the long haul?
"I had a lot of confidence that he was our guy," Mara said. "We obviously made the decision not to exercise the fifth-year option (last year). I couldn't have been more pleased that he played as well as he did. I think it became pretty apparent, by midseason anyway, that he was going to be the guy.
Mara went on about this at some length without ever mentioning Joe Schoen.
If any selling was being done, once the season was over, who would have been doing it?
I don't know why more people don't get this. There was ZERO chance the Giants organization was going to let Jones leave after last year. None. The owner was on record on multiple occasions as believing in Jones. First with the "we've done everything possible to screw him up" comment, then with subsequent remarks on the record like the ones here.
People say that if Schoen didn't want Jones he should have "made his case" to Mara about it, but what case could he have made after everything the owner said publicly on the subject? Jones was going to be a Giant in 2024, no ifs, ands, or buts.
So maybe Mara doesn't "meddle". Maybe he just makes his opinion perfectly clear every single time he speaks, which given the fact that he OWNS THE TEAM carries quite a bit of weight with the people who report directly to him.
Quote:
If Joe Burrow tore his ACL last night would the Bengals draft a QB in the first round in April?
The answer is "no fucking way".
Put yourself in the Giants' shoes. I'm not certain they're going to pass on a QB, but I think it's pretty damn far from certain they'll draft one.
Daniel Jones = Joe Burrow?
For John Mara, possibly.
For some stragglers on BBI, too early to say.
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
You must love torturing yourself, or just others on this thread lol
Hopefully, it all evolves into picking a new QB. It will require a significant shift in the Mara opinion of Jones to potentially admit a big error in judgement and financial commitment. Right now, the recent stuff in media flags differently.
However, if they do draft a QB early can we drop the Mara intrigue. They did not pick up year 5. That does say something, no?
I know there was meddling, not saying it was made up. It appears like Schoen has autonomy to me, April will be telling.
with the Chief's offensive line at the LOS?
LT Donovan Smith
LG Joe THuney
C Creed Humphrey
RG Trey Smith
RT Jaawan Taylor
Or, Detroit?
LT Taylor Decker
LG Jonah Jackson
C Frank Ragnow
RG Graham Glasgow
RT Penei Sewell
Or, Dallas
LT Tyron Smith
LG Tyler SMith
C Tyler Biadasz
RG Zack Martin
RT Terrence Steele
Or, Philly?
LT Jordan Mailata
LG Landon Dickerson
C Jason Kelce
RG Cam Jurgens
RT Lane Johnson
You won't be going out on a limb if you say... a hell of a lot better than what this franchise has trotted out there for the past decade.
Quote:
In comment 16292271 JonC said:
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
You must love torturing yourself, or just others on this thread lol
Hopefully, it all evolves into picking a new QB. It will require a significant shift in the Mara opinion of Jones to potentially admit a big error in judgement and financial commitment. Right now, the recent stuff in media flags differently.
Right, because the media doesn't like to stir shit.
Quote:
In comment 16292242 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
Assholish and unnecessary. He took a team that was universally agreed at the start of 2022 season as one of the worst rosters in the NFL. After a week he had practice squad receiving talent. He lead the team to 9 wins, then he won a playoff game playing historically well. Not 1 game, not a small sample.
Considering that, it was at least a reasonable signing.
Before you post an encyclopedia of stats, I will counter with his 2022 QBR. He played very well in 2022, YOUR WORDS WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT WE SAW AND FELT.
I equate greatness with wins and championships.
Michael over Lebron
Eli over Marino(I know this pisses people off, Marino is the best pure passer I ever saw but not a great leader.)
I do understand that this is a something we need to agree to disagree on. This argument has endured for ages. It is just who we are individually.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree then. Yes, Jones played better last year, but the prior 3 years weren’t even backup level football. And his performance last year was wildly overstated by most of BBI, he did most of his damage with his legs. This is the NFL, QB’s need to make plays in the passing game. Defenses have schemed how to keep him in the pocket, where his weaknesses are multiplied.
Jones is basically Sam Bradford with speed. If you think that’s worth an $82M guarantee, that’s your right, but I certainly don’t. The contract was bad, the only thing that saves it from being among the worst in team history is that they can get out from under it without too much penalty after 2 years.
Quote:
In comment 16292271 JonC said:
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
You must love torturing yourself, or just others on this thread lol
Hopefully, it all evolves into picking a new QB. It will require a significant shift in the Mara opinion of Jones to potentially admit a big error in judgement and financial commitment. Right now, the recent stuff in media flags differently.
I think there's time to convince Mara of idealistic decisions that make sense going into future. Jones injuries now also present that construct.
I admire his effort to want a player to succeed to a fair degree, but things change, times change, circumstances and opportunities present themselves and it's why owners need to allow voices in room to argue and present alternative thinking or opinion (which to be fair, I believe Mara encourages and allows).
In this case, it just makes zero financial sense either holding Jones thinking it will work next 4-5 yrs. And the Jones crowd keeps blaming the roster is so bad, this and that. Well then, why is Jones being kept here, if this is such a multi-year rebuild? Then it turns to blaming Schoen for giving him the contract, or not drafting well quick enough to "help" Daniel. If you remove that narrative, it's blame "Daboll, Kafka, Bobby Johnson".
Jones isn't going to get cheaper even if he has a marginal/middle of road season in 2024 by some chance. Giants would be forced to rework his deal again and he's not taking a discount.
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I believe it would criminal not to take a QB if we draft high because even if Jones keeps the Job and plays lights out, you will get a HAUL in trade by waiting and either trading the rookie or Jones to a team in need.
However, if they do draft a QB early can we drop the Mara intrigue. They did not pick up year 5. That does say something, no?
I know there was meddling, not saying it was made up. It appears like Schoen has autonomy to me, April will be telling.
The ONLY way another team is taking Jones is if the Giants eat a ton of his contract or cut him. No one, and I mean NO ONE is absorbing that contract.
A quick pivot is the sign of people who recognize that they erred and are moving away from it. My inclination is that there's more of that in Schoen than there is in Mara.
People got carried away with that clown circus win over the Colts last season. Their defense was a joke playing third stringers.
Overall the 2nd half of the season was a couple good games, couple poor games, and generally "meh" performances in the other few.
If Mara really listened to fan sentiment, it's going to be overwhelmingly in favor of 80/20-ish given how this season played out, draft one of the studs.
These guys are generational talents - from what I have read - it would really be unimaginable to pass up.
That's why I think all this chatter is just, well, chatter. Something to fill the time as we continue to roll into oblivion.
I think you have a lot of great insight, but I don't think this is very likely. A lot can change between now and April, but is Schoen really going to trade down when he has a chance to draft Williams or Maye? Doubtful. Daniels maybe. But the other two? As of now, I'd be very surprised if that happened.
I think the Giants will take a QB no later than the top of round two, and I could easily see them packaging both second round picks to move back into the first for a QB, if only for the fifth year option.
Then I give up.
Remember, this is an organization that once spent a draft pick on a guy who didn't make the team because he used to mow Wellington's lawn when he was a kid.
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I think you have a lot of great insight, but I don't think this is very likely. A lot can change between now and April, but is Schoen really going to trade down when he has a chance to draft Williams or Maye? Doubtful. Daniels maybe. But the other two? As of now, I'd be very surprised if that happened.
I think the Giants will take a QB no later than the top of round two, and I could easily see them packaging both second round picks to move back into the first for a QB, if only for the fifth year option.
Acid/Sammo, a lot can change and hopefully in April we see it. I have to think logic, facts, and common sense will prevail. But, it should've happened before now, lol.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
Remember, this is an organization that once spent a draft pick on a guy who didn't make the team because he used to mow Wellington's lawn when he was a kid.
Who was that? lol
hahahaha, right? This about sums up the entire thread.
I'd say JV defense is a bit unfair.....it was a very good win, playoffs and on the road.
It is disqualifying. He is not a starter in this league. Tyrod Taylor was more functional.
There is no scenario where Jones returns to a normal offense and plays "lights out".
Quote:
I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
That's what makes this illogical.
Quote:
It was a nice statistical day against a JV defense. He wants to elevate it to the status of a Super Bowl win. In a division playoff game against a rival with a good defense, Jones was horrendous.
I'd say JV defense is a bit unfair.....it was a very good win, playoffs and on the road.
Actually, a historically bad pass D. Even Vikings fans admit.
Boston College TE Todd Pollack in 1998. Only a sixth round pick, but still.
Quote:
In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
The Viking game is cited frequently like it was an incredible achievement. You don't see the Eagle game brought up much though.
Oh...did the trial balloons lose their air already?
31st in passing yards allowed
22nd in sacks and QB hits
24th in completion % allowed
and
Mac Jones 382 yards
look like HOFers
in addition to D Jones.
It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league.
Quote:
Who was that? lol
Boston College TE Todd Pollack in 1998. Only a sixth round pick, but still.
Never heard that story, thanks.
He had ample opportunity to secure Jones for less money, and he chose this path. As it stands it looks like a mistake.
If the Giants draft a quarterback on round one, it's debatable whether the Giants will even play Jones in 2024.
Why would they risk putting a recovering Jones on the field, and risk triggering his 2025 injury guarantee.
The chances of Jones gloriously returning to the field and netting a king's ransom in a trade is delusional.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
He had ample opportunity to secure Jones for less money, and he chose this path. As it stands it looks like a mistake.
If the Giants draft a quarterback on round one, it's debatable whether the Giants will even play Jones in 2024.
Why would they risk putting a recovering Jones on the field, and risk triggering his 2025 injury guarantee.
The chances of Jones gloriously returning to the field and netting a king's ransom in a trade is delusional.
This is where I'm at. It is Schoen's job to sell Mara on the direction of the team. If Mara wanted Jones back (and I fully believe Schoen did as well), he should have explained why the tag would make more sense. Or why allowing him to test the market would make sense.
With the assumption that the Giants would continue to build and compete, the contract is not that bad. But, the contract assumes Jones would take another step.
Sitting here at 2-8 where Jones had another neck injury and season ending ACL, the contract looks awful. As GM, Schoen owns that.
The regime owns the fact that they lost 40-0 week 1 to Dallas. It also owns the fact that the vibe around the franchise was victory laps after last season.
Do we think we'll see Schoen and Daboll at a Ranger game anytime soon?
I need a break from the Giants if that happens. Running it back with Jones is completely insane.
What do you mean? John Mara is the owner. The buck stops with him.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
I completely understand why you wish to ignore the compelling data that
1. the 2022 Vikings pass D, and D in general, was abysmal
2. Daniel Jones fails against good defenses and apart from the first 7 games of last season has a record of failure
3. Jones has an all-time record of failure in prime time games.
4. Jones can't function in a normal offense with professional downfield passing
5. Jones' performance in 2023, prior to the injury, is absolutely disqualifying him as a starter in the NFL.
Jones has been unmasked as a fraud.
With the assumption that the Giants would continue to build and compete, the contract is not that bad. But, the contract assumes Jones would take another step.
Sitting here at 2-8 where Jones had another neck injury and season ending ACL, the contract looks awful. As GM, Schoen owns that.
The regime owns the fact that they lost 40-0 week 1 to Dallas. It also owns the fact that the vibe around the franchise was victory laps after last season.
Do we think we'll see Schoen and Daboll at a Ranger game anytime soon?
I hope Schoen has the courage and influence to convince his boss that he made a mistake, and that's that.
Jones will be a Giant next year, because there's virtually no reasonable way he can be traded or cut.
I won't be surprised if they slow play his return, and ultimately keep him off the field so as to not risk a trigger to his injury guarantee.
Denial
Quote:
In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
I must have missed it, because I don’t see anything that would have made his performance “historic”. It was a terrific game, no doubt, probably the best of his career, but here’s the thing - even mediocre QB’s have really good games. Now Daniel did it under the bright lights of the playoffs, so he gets credit for that, but it’s not like other run of the mill QB’s haven’t.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
Yep. This is a big issue and both sides are extreme. Whether it's comparing Jones to Josh Allen on one extreme or saying any backup QB is better than Jones on the other extreme.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
It’s not overblown. They were an atrocious defense and one of the worst to ever make the playoffs. The stats on that subject are not debatable.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
Lol. I'm not saying he pulled one over on us. I'm saying he is not an NFL starter and got paid near elite dollars. He's a fraud. Does not necessarily imply he knowingly cheated us.
Quote:
What’s your theory?
I thought for sure the Jones was Mara's guy - like the LL dad that played his son at SS (looked the part, even played well for stretches, but was mediocre at best)....
I thought the contract they gave DJ with the 2nd year out was a half-ass commitment and I was operating under the assumption that out was due Daboll/Schoen wanting it in there.
I think this is true.
The "2 year out" was likely a compromise between ownership and Schoen and Daboll. It gave Jones more time to prove himself or get to the next level which ownership wanted, a long enough window to appease Jones' camp, and enough flexibility so that it's not too long-term to hamstring Shoen and Daboll's future plans.
Mara played chicken with this commitment and lost.
I fully expect Shoen and Daboll to jump at the opportunity to move on from Jones that's in front of them. The chances of being top 3 in the draft again are not great or reliable, you have to strike now.
The Giants need to stop pussyfooting. Daniel Jones is not winning this team a Super Bowl, period... Get the guy in here who can.
NFL, more than most sports, is subject to unpredictable swings, owing to small sample sizes, for individual and team performances.
Quote:
This is Mara et al using the media with a purpose, they've done it every late season where it's been a shitshow and jobs are on the line. They care about fan sentiment, probably too much.
If they cared about fan sentiment, wouldn't that point firmly to their moving on from Jones? Yes, Jones has his apologists, but I have to believe the overwhelming sentiment is that we're done making excuses for poor performance and enough is enough. No?
I think the problem is the apologists tend to be the louder group, or at least loud enough for a listener that's specifically hoping for that particular feedback.
Fan sentiment was the driving factor in McAdoo and Reese getting canned. Fan sentiment caused the about-face on Abrams and the firing of Judge. Fan sentiment probably led to Gettleman as an Eli-centric crony choice in the wake of 2017's dumpster fire.
Medium Pepsi jokes aside, there are times when John Mara cares a little too much about what the fans think. And other times when his organization decides to use their comms team to try to tell the fans how they're supposed to feel.
It's all a little dysfunctional.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
Option 2 could still mean you pick a QB from the spot you trade down to, or use the future picks to move around to get a QB this draft.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
I'll be in honest in saying the Giants have interested me less and less each day since hiring DG and drafting Jones, etc.
It's partially because of those inflection point poor decisions and countless poor decisions since then ... also my son being born, my career getting to stupid mega busy levels all contributing to my dwindled free time for football. But, ever since they drafted Jones my interest has really dwindled, and they haven't proven me wrong yet on the path(s) they've chosen. I'm not dumping them, but they desperately need to fix their house, stat.
Quote:
In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
What was historic about it? I'm not kidding, I have never seen the explanation, just the constant repetition of the adjective.
Just because you seem to care about what others think doesn't mean you are really listening to them.
Agreed.
I'm fucking done if Mara sticks his nose in dictating the QB to Shoen and Daboll.
Quote:
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
My statement was a general/broad statement so I definitely am underestimating fans frustration. However, It seems tough to 'quit' a team. I think that is usually a gradual process that starts with focusing less attention on the team (some fans are there already). I don't think any of the fans on this particular message that claim they may be done as fans if the giants don't take a top qb prospect really believe themselves that they will be done.
Btw. I can see a scenario where the Giants can't pass up a guy like Harrison Jr if they like a qb that isn't rated quite as high as the top prospects with a hope of trading up later or if they really like a qb prospect that will be in the '25 class. I get that passing on this class of qbs would be a pretty big risk, but if the Giants feel that a guy like Harrison Jr is just too good to pass up, I could see that.
Personally, I would prefer to get one of the big named qbs this year, but not going qb with the first pick is not necessarily an endorsement of Daniel Jones.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
Regardless of all that, let's see if this front office and ownership understands the concept of "sunk cost"... That's what Jones should become. Learn from it and don't repeat the mistake again.
Major intelligence tests coming up for this team.
Quote:
and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I believe it would criminal not to take a QB if we draft high because even if Jones keeps the Job and plays lights out, you will get a HAUL in trade by waiting and either trading the rookie or Jones to a team in need.
However, if they do draft a QB early can we drop the Mara intrigue. They did not pick up year 5. That does say something, no?
I know there was meddling, not saying it was made up. It appears like Schoen has autonomy to me, April will be telling.
You can never stop the Mara intrigue, you can only hope to contain it.
If Giants pick a quarterback in April, Maranoia will disappear….for a moment, but the minute a decision by Schoen is made that does not fit the narrative of what we fans think is best for the team, it will resurface, be assured of that
Quote:
a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
Giving Jones any significant guarantee was an error. And it is not just hindsight. As Terps has very astutely pointed out, you had a Vikings-Eagles sequence that should have preached caution. AGAIN! Just like with Pat Shurmur, the Vikes win was fools gold and the Eagles loss was a better barometer of where we were. You cannot make this up... It's just error compounding error with this team, and that's what concerns me.
But I don't think it's hyperbole to say this offseason is going to tell us A LOT about our team:
1. Is our GM willing to admit a mistake and cut bait so quickly on the "franchise" QB? One kernel of hope is the way the contract was structured, but as Sean and others have observed, it's a TON of dead cap space.
2. Even if our GM is willing to make such a concession, will ownership let him?
3. What do we do with Barkley? I've always been a fan of his, but it's clear he's a luxury we cannot afford, and as noted above if we had not been so obsessed with locking down Jones and Barkley, it would've been much easier to hedge on Jones again with the FT. Or, at least let him test the f'ing market to establish he was worth $40M.
4. I think the decision will really hinge on where we are picking--if we're top 5, you HAVE to pick the QB. Show the courage we showed when we cut bait from Kerry Collins in '04, and take your true franchise QB and build around him.
I'm not saying anything you all aren't saying; but to me, this is really the way it breaks down.
Quote:
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I'll be in honest in saying the Giants have interested me less and less each day since hiring DG and drafting Jones, etc.
It's partially because of those inflection point poor decisions and countless poor decisions since then ... also my son being born, my career getting to stupid mega busy levels all contributing to my dwindled free time for football. But, ever since they drafted Jones my interest has really dwindled, and they haven't proven me wrong yet on the path(s) they've chosen. I'm not dumping them, but they desperately need to fix their house, stat.
I hear ya, I have the least amount of interest in the team when they play each week than I ever have in my fandom. I don't get stating 'I may be done as a fan if...' to other fans on a forum. It just seems dramatic to me.
More exaggerated bullshit from you. He was the 6th ranked QB last year (QBR). There is nothing "poor quality" about that.
His rookie year he had 26 total TD's (2 rushing) 3,300 total yards (3,020 passing and 280 rushing) in 12 games. TO's were certainly a problem, but the other stats aren't "poor quality".
2020 and 2021 were terrible, but then again EVERYTHING was of "poor quality", from the HC/OC/DC all the way down
But we all know how you like to make shit up to support your narrative...
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
I will puke x100000 if this happened.
Bunch of unintelligent losers if this occurs. The Giants deserve what they get if that's what happens, empty stadiums and all.
I might be out.
+ a lot, and I know owners in the same mental boat.
If you look at this from their perspective drafting Drake Maye would be a quick and decisive admission of an error. It would not be characteristic of how the Giants operate.
Well, time for the Giants to grow up and grow a set. Better late than never.
We're a forgiving bunch so long as the right, logical moves are made. Ownership can take their PR and optics, and owner father-player son relationship stuff and shove it up their ass. This is about football and winning games. If the wrong move is made on this one I think it gets nuclear against this team in a way they won't be able to anticipate or combat with 30 Pat Hanlons in his prime.
So the only evaluation you could ever have of Jones just slides between "he's good" and "he's really good?"
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to say that is a minority opinion anywhere in the football world is an understatement.
I'm done if this happens. Let's not manifest this at all.
I don't think it's fans writing to Mara like kids writing letters to Santa (although there are some fans from whom I might not doubt it), but I do think they pay close attention to social media, particularly X and probably some FB groups, and definitely here, the comments on the beat articles, etc. And I would be at least mildly surprised if they're not doing some actual digital sentiment tracking beyond just what they read for themselves.
What would worry me about that is that I think all people fall into the same trap with this sort of thing (amplified by orders of magnitude online), where they just see the side they inherently agree with as the prominent voice and the side they disagree with as the trolls. And then it's made worse by the internet itself tending to feed you more of what you told it you agree with.
For me at least, I don't believe most people are typically capable of being truly impartial and unbiased with anything that matters to them. So I personally have concerns with the Giants seemingly consistent history of seeking out fan approval for the outcome they want before it happens, or immediately tuning in to fan reaction when a major and unexpected event occurs (like the Eli benching or now DJ's season-ending injury and likely top draft pick). And even though I recognize the tin-hat nature of pointing much of that concern at Mara, I'm also unable to otherwise explain how the same behavior seems to have lingered through three GMs and five HCs.
On the broader Giants fandom front, the empty seats in upcoming home games I think will cause another spasm of stupid public actions by the Maras. I hope Daboll just stays calm and stoic through all of this. I have no confidence that John Mara will behave with steadiness.
Quote:
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
Excellent post. +1
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
On the broader Giants fandom front, the empty seats in upcoming home games I think will cause another spasm of stupid public actions by the Maras. I hope Daboll just stays calm and stoic through all of this. I have no confidence that John Mara will behave with steadiness.
Hi Cosmic, actually I was not responding to yours. You make a good point; if something is not giving you some sort of positivity then why do it? It's just really hard to just walk away from a team cold turkey. I am not saying fans don't do it, I think they are the extreme minority. Being a fan of a team is kind of like an addiction like you pointed out; a lot of people struggle to quit something even if it is bad for them.
With the Giants, I try to reset expectations and remember that it is only football. I don't think I need to walk away from the Giants, I think I need to do a better job of understanding why I get so worked up about a team.
So the only evaluation you could ever have of Jones just slides between "he's good" and "he's really good?"
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to say that is a minority opinion anywhere in the football world is an understatement.
A certain segment of Giants fan has always operated under the belief that his best games are the “real” Jones and the other ones aren’t his fault because of a variety of factors that are out of his control.
It couldn’t be that his best games are almost exclusively against awful defensive teams. It couldn’t be that he’s fairly easy to gameplan against. It couldn’t be that he doesn’t process quickly when things don’t look the way they are supposed to post-snap. It couldn’t be that he doesn’t throw with anticipation.
All that said, I’m absolutely prepared for the possibility that the powers-that-be in the Giants organization believe the same as that segment of fans.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Quote:
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
If that scenario happens and you follow through with that, I have to give you credit. If you don't follow through, then it is understandable.
Giving Jones any significant guarantee was an error. And it is not just hindsight. As Terps has very astutely pointed out, you had a Vikings-Eagles sequence that should have preached caution. AGAIN! Just like with Pat Shurmur, the Vikes win was fools gold and the Eagles loss was a better barometer of where we were. You cannot make this up... It's just error compounding error with this team, and that's what concerns me.
But I don't think it's hyperbole to say this offseason is going to tell us A LOT about our team:
1. Is our GM willing to admit a mistake and cut bait so quickly on the "franchise" QB? One kernel of hope is the way the contract was structured, but as Sean and others have observed, it's a TON of dead cap space.
2. Even if our GM is willing to make such a concession, will ownership let him?
3. What do we do with Barkley? I've always been a fan of his, but it's clear he's a luxury we cannot afford, and as noted above if we had not been so obsessed with locking down Jones and Barkley, it would've been much easier to hedge on Jones again with the FT. Or, at least let him test the f'ing market to establish he was worth $40M.
4. I think the decision will really hinge on where we are picking--if we're top 5, you HAVE to pick the QB. Show the courage we showed when we cut bait from Kerry Collins in '04, and take your true franchise QB and build around him.
I'm not saying anything you all aren't saying; but to me, this is really the way it breaks down.
Yup.
Quote:
Personally I think his poor quality of play should end his career with the Giants, but they clearly interpreted things differently and saw fit to reward him with a renewed commitment.
More exaggerated bullshit from you. He was the 6th ranked QB last year (QBR). There is nothing "poor quality" about that.
His rookie year he had 26 total TD's (2 rushing) 3,300 total yards (3,020 passing and 280 rushing) in 12 games. TO's were certainly a problem, but the other stats aren't "poor quality".
2020 and 2021 were terrible, but then again EVERYTHING was of "poor quality", from the HC/OC/DC all the way down
But we all know how you like to make shit up to support your narrative...
So your view is that we have to keep examining history to determine what we have in Daniel Jones? And we should continue to see what happens because sometimes he looks good and when he is bad you can share the blame?
Put aside your poster-vengences and give us your logical course of action hotshot.
I was once the fan who went to lots of games, spent lots of money on Giants products, and never missed a moment of the games whether live or on TV.
Despite two one off playoff appearances, the Giants have the worst record I believe over the last 10+ seasons.
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
I will puke x100000 if this happened.
Bunch of unintelligent losers if this occurs. The Giants deserve what they get if that's what happens, empty stadiums and all.
Get the sickness bags ready because it is a real possibility that Jones gets the Mulligan.
I've never seen a more mediocre player create so much confusion for an organization even after five years.
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Great lets hang a banner for the road playoff win. They also got embarassed in the Divisional round.
The Giants are 60-102 the last 10 years. They have become an abysmal franchise.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Of course the year happened. They did win a road playoff game. But they were not a very good team. Sometimes two middling teams play each other in the playoffs and one of them wins. The Vikings, despite their record, scored fewer points than they gave up. They were an anomaly.
The Giants finished the regular season on a 1-7 free fall. The week after their road playoff win, they were steam rolled by a team whose roster was leaps and bounds better. This was not an epic battle of good teams. It was two flawed teams in a top-heavy conference. This has been borne out by how both teams crashed back to earth in 2023.
The Giants had a good year in 2022 with a rebuilding roster. Many of the players on that roster are not good enough to build around, including the QB.
Did last year not happen?
It did. And in the context of the surrounding seasons, we call that an abberation
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
Bingo!
Quote:
Did last year not happen?
It did. And in the context of the surrounding seasons, we call that an abberation
When you have access to a deep set of data, but select a small subset of that data to drive your assessment of the entire data set, it is called confirmation bias.
There are a lot of people on here who look to small data sets and outlier games to draw broad conclusions that don't consider the full data set at all.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
I was once the fan who went to lots of games, spent lots of money on Giants products, and never missed a moment of the games whether live or on TV.
Despite two one off playoff appearances, the Giants have the worst record I believe over the last 10+ seasons.
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
Is this in response to my comments about fans saying they will or may quit on the Giants?
Against the 2022 Vikings he completed 72% of his passes for 382 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs.
DANIEL Jones aside, not very good QBs can and did have very good games against the Vikings defense.
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
Quote:
In comment 16292446 UberAlias said:
Quote:
a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
It matters at some point for sure. Picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is exactly how we found ourselves in this mess to begin with and needs to be avoided at all costs. Worse that sticking with Jones is doubling down by reaching on a future QB bust.
Busting on a QB pick isn't that damaging since the CBA to introduce the rookie wage scale. Take Bryce Young as an example. Young's dead cap money in year three is a little over $22M...that is about as much as what everyone is considering an "out" in Jones's contract in '25. You can move on pretty fast from even the first pick overall.
The danger is in doing exactly what the Giants have done... self-imposed QB hell.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
What happens next will tell the tale of Schoen. Anybody can make a mistake, make a bad eval, get pressured by ownership into a bad move. But given all the data Schoen must add a top QB this offseason. A replacement for Jones. If he doesn't. Forget him. He's not up to the job.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
All good. We're all making our best guesses based on the public info we have.
Along with a little reading between the lines... ;)
Quote:
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
Is that true? I do not recall reading it, if so, WOOF.
Quote:
In comment 16292449 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16292446 UberAlias said:
Quote:
a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
It matters at some point for sure. Picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is exactly how we found ourselves in this mess to begin with and needs to be avoided at all costs. Worse that sticking with Jones is doubling down by reaching on a future QB bust.
Busting on a QB pick isn't that damaging since the CBA to introduce the rookie wage scale. Take Bryce Young as an example. Young's dead cap money in year three is a little over $22M...that is about as much as what everyone is considering an "out" in Jones's contract in '25. You can move on pretty fast from even the first pick overall.
The danger is in doing exactly what the Giants have done... self-imposed QB hell.
I agree that it is easier to move on from a top pick at qb, the question is when to move on from a top pick at quarterback.
Quote:
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
That Jones pro day was a joke. But I do remember seeing CMara's big head in the background. And the twinkle in his eye and the big smile on his big head.
I still get a little depressed thinking about the prior year with Shurmur at Josh Allen's pro day. Shurmur looked jubilant as Allen was throwing rocket after rocket with absolute ease...
Quote:
H
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
Leave now. Save us the trouble.
Quote:
In comment 16292411 ChrisRick said:
Quote:
H
I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
Leave now. Save us the trouble.
How about, go fuck yourself?
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
They were 9-7-1, and 3-6-1 down the stretch with a nice win against a very flawed team. It’s n9t like we’re talking about the ‘74 Steelers.
Kenny Pickett
Desmond Ridder
Malik Willis
Matt Corral
Bailey Zappe
Sam Howell
Chris Oladokun
Skylar Thompson
Brock Purdy
Corral and Oladokun are already on different teams. The remainder are with the team that drafted them and have enjoyed varying levels of success.
Of that group the only player that would keep me from seeking his replacement and/or considering trading him this offseason is Purdy. He is playing well enough that the 49ers should keep seeing what they've got and enjoy the excellent performance to cost ratio.
For the rest, I'd be open to moving them if the opportunity arose, and their presence wouldn't keep me from drafting or signing a QB I liked.
Two years is the scholarship.
Quote:
In comment 16292500 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
That Jones pro day was a joke. But I do remember seeing CMara's big head in the background. And the twinkle in his eye and the big smile on his big head.
I still get a little depressed thinking about the prior year with Shurmur at Josh Allen's pro day. Shurmur looked jubilant as Allen was throwing rocket after rocket with absolute ease...
They were thinking they got Josh Allen-lite.
And what we found out is Josh Allen-lite doesn't actually add up to an NFL quarterback.
Kenny Pickett
Desmond Ridder
Malik Willis
Matt Corral
Bailey Zappe
Sam Howell
Chris Oladokun
Skylar Thompson
Brock Purdy
Corral and Oladokun are already on different teams. The remainder are with the team that drafted them and have enjoyed varying levels of success.
Of that group the only player that would keep me from seeking his replacement and/or considering trading him this offseason is Purdy. He is playing well enough that the 49ers should keep seeing what they've got and enjoy the excellent performance to cost ratio.
For the rest, I'd be open to moving them if the opportunity arose, and their presence wouldn't keep me from drafting or signing a QB I liked.
Two years is the scholarship.
100%
Purdy seems like the keeper for now.
The rest are varying degrees of suck. Sam Howell has actually played well at times. He's better than Jones. But he must still lift his overall game and get more consistent. And even where Howell is, Washington needs to consider alternativss.
Kenny Pickett
Desmond Ridder
Malik Willis
Matt Corral
Bailey Zappe
Sam Howell
Chris Oladokun
Skylar Thompson
Brock Purdy
Corral and Oladokun are already on different teams. The remainder are with the team that drafted them and have enjoyed varying levels of success.
Of that group the only player that would keep me from seeking his replacement and/or considering trading him this offseason is Purdy. He is playing well enough that the 49ers should keep seeing what they've got and enjoy the excellent performance to cost ratio.
For the rest, I'd be open to moving them if the opportunity arose, and their presence wouldn't keep me from drafting or signing a QB I liked.
Two years is the scholarship.
Thanks for the reply. As a baseline, I think that is fair.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Does irrelevant 8 out of every 10 make you feel any better?
A real compliment coming from you.
Careful ryan some 8/23 guy will tell you he’s been around for years and then call you names. Is so devastating.
I agree with you here. That's incredibly weak. I've read people say that nothing else mattered after beating the 18-0 Patriots in the Super Bowl, everything else was gravy. Well, they tacked on ANOTHER Super Bowl 4 years later.
I've been very annoyed with this franchise the last decade, but I'd never bail.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
I want them to do what's right. But ownership seems hopelessly inept.
I want them to lose the rest of the games so we can have the top pick, get the best QB, and reset from this horrific course we have been on.
Mara, Gettleman, Judge, Jones
A disastrous era for the Giants. And Jones is its poster boy. A subpar QB, given the keys to the kingdom, who rookie corners mock. What a fucking shit show.
Just curious, don't you claim to be a diehard Knick fan? Just curious the logic there. The Knicks are much better run now, but the Giants have 4 super bowls since the Knicks won their last title.
Yes, it sucks. I miss the 4:25pm NFC East battles this time of year. Now it's only reserved for Dallas and Philly.
It has gotten to a place Im not sure I ever imagined. And the same problems for a decade.
I still watch the Giants, but it is becoming a chore rather than something I enjoy doing. Last season was fun, but it looks like a mirage.
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
"Tough stretch"???
A decade of shitty football is a tough stretch?
And if the Giants pass on a top QB to bring back Daniel Jones than any sane fan has every right to be pissed and/or leave as a fan.
Why should any fan support such a shitty product that isn't entertaining?
I still watch the Giants, but it is becoming a chore rather than something I enjoy doing. Last season was fun, but it looks like a mirage.
Totally fair. I get that. Let's hope the franchise understands what it needs to do this offseason.
Quote:
In comment 16292571 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
"Tough stretch"???
A decade of shitty football is a tough stretch?
And if the Giants pass on a top QB to bring back Daniel Jones than any sane fan has every right to be pissed and/or leave as a fan.
Why should any fan support such a shitty product that isn't entertaining?
And you're not just supporting the team. You're supporting the Maras who seem like nepotism-obsessed ignoramuses.
This idea of gatekeeping fandom is asinine, juvenile, and repleat with insecurity.
Sorry bout your small dicks, bros.
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
And guess what, there’s nothing you can do if they do come crawling back.
I doubt anyone actually means they’ll stop being Giants fans, but stopping investing their time into Giants football until things turn around is perfectly reasonable given the past decade.
I’m never giving up my season tickets, but I sure as hell didn’t waste my time going to games this year. And probably won’t next year if they do decide to run it back with Jones.
That said, my enthusiasm has ebbed to the point that I have only watched a couple of games from beginning to end this year. What's worse is that my son is 15 and has rarely seen the Giants be anything other than a laughingstock. He's still a fan but he has come to expect the worst from them, and why shouldn't he? They have defined the term "bottom feeder" for most of his life.
I'll never jump ship to another team, but I certainly do lose interest in this one. When I was a teenager, Knicks basketball gripped me just as much, if not more, than baseball and football. Then the Knicks went into the toilet for more than two decades and today I'm still only moderately following them. I'm close to going the same way wth the Giants.
Quote:
In comment 16292449 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16292446 UberAlias said:
Quote:
a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
It matters at some point for sure. Picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is exactly how we found ourselves in this mess to begin with and needs to be avoided at all costs. Worse that sticking with Jones is doubling down by reaching on a future QB bust.
Busting on a QB pick isn't that damaging since the CBA to introduce the rookie wage scale. Take Bryce Young as an example. Young's dead cap money in year three is a little over $22M...that is about as much as what everyone is considering an "out" in Jones's contract in '25. You can move on pretty fast from even the first pick overall.
The danger is in doing exactly what the Giants have done... self-imposed QB hell.
I don't agree. It's not as bad as it was pre CBA, but still a huge setback. Your theory is far too optimistic and you are only looking at financial implications. It is not always so clear cut that the guys is not the answer or is it not black and white? What has the team has invested in building around him? Teams picking at the top of draft are bad teams. Bad teams don't get better with poor QB play, so often we're looking at casualties in coaching continuity. There are opportunity losses, such as what else could you have done with the top 5 pick --addressed another major need? And when you do finally concede to moving on --will you be in the same position to draft a top QB prospect? You may not have a similar high pick at that point and the real good ones don't come every year, so what then? And when you finally do get your guy, it takes time --they are rookies, they have a lot to learn. Often even with very talented guys, we're not always talking about an overnight turn around.
Then you factor in 2 neck injuries and an ACL…it’s a no brainer. It would be baffling if they passed in a generational talent to double down on this bad contract they gave Jones.
Being a nice guy doesn’t win you games and it doesn’t sell tickets either
For me, what has made the last handful of years difficult is really the self-inflicted wounds from the front office decisions and roster building. You can literally see them happening and you just want to tell them to "Stop...that's a mistake."
But you can't and you are left hoping every Sunday they can overcome them somehow. And in an outlier year like 2022 they were able to, but those big flaws always keep coming back.
Quote:
In comment 16292571 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
"Tough stretch"???
A decade of shitty football is a tough stretch?
And if the Giants pass on a top QB to bring back Daniel Jones than any sane fan has every right to be pissed and/or leave as a fan.
Why should any fan support such a shitty product that isn't entertaining?
The groupthink as a fan base this season is strong. When is the last time the Lions won a playoff game?
Luck isn't much of a factor in the NFL, you either know how to win or you don't.
This season the NYG were absolutely not prepared on any level. Not sure why, but, it was obvious from game 1.
It seems like no changes were made to correct the course.
Dabs needs to be in this conversation too. This season has been a failure from top to bottom.
This isn't a call to fire anyone, but it would be interesting to hear from a third party audit of what the difference between last year and this year was in terms of preparation and personnel decision making.
You could spend a week pointing out all of the logical fallacies he posts over and over. Despite being wrong over and over again, he will not stop following other posters around trying to prove what a great fan he is because he agrees with everything the Giants do.
Quote:
...defensively is a bit overblown IMO.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
It’s not overblown. They were an atrocious defense and one of the worst to ever make the playoffs. The stats on that subject are not debatable.
The games agains the Vikings last season were a mirage.
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
This post, I think, sums up so much about the way that you view this team, the way you view this board, the way you view other fans.
No one is keeping score of diehardedness. Many of the fans that are talking about growing apathetic have been fans since long before you were even born. You have no concept of what their real-life priorities are or should be, and have no right to tell them where to place the Giants among those priorities when the team leads the fucking league in unforced errors for the past decade, both on the field and in the front office.
For some reason, you seem to think that loyalty is defined by continuing to support every single move and decision this team makes, and I would argue that that's a very narrow and simplistic way to view it. And I would go a step further to say that ultimately continuing to support the franchise with just as much fervor in spite of their constant ineptitude is like taking your buddy out for drinks to be there for him after his family tries to stage an intervention about his drinking problem.
People aren't talking about turning their back on the Giants because they are less loyal than you, although I know you do believe that to be the case. They're talking about turning their back on the Giants because it's the only fucking thing John Mara ever notices in the first place.
Ultimately, those that are talking about tuning in less, going less, spending less, paying less attention, it's all because of how badly they do want the Giants to do better. They've just run out of ways to reconcile putting the other parts of their lives behind the Giants when they consider their priorities.
Just do us all a favor and don't act like you're a bigger fan just because you don't have a million other priorities banging at the door in your life right now.
'Being a good fan means turning your brain off and supporting everything they do' is laughable.
For me, at the stadium, belligerent and drunk fans can ruin the experience for others.
Bad fan.
On BBI
It is people who are more concerned with their opinion than the well being of the Giants.
Someone who says the Giants will never win anything with Jones and that the general manager definitely doesn't want them because they don't pick his 5th year.
That is perfectly fine and we just disagree.
Then Jones wins 9 games with a terrible team and wins a playoff game playing historically well.
THE FAN THAT DISAPPEARS FOR THE GOOD TIMES BECAUSE IT DIDNT CONFIRM HIS NARASTIVE ONLY TO RETURN WHEN THE DUMPSTER FIRE STARTS IN ORDER TO GLOAT.
That, is a very, very, very small amount of BBI and the only kind of people I consider bad fans. I can politely disagree decades.
Not a fan of trolls.
For me, at the stadium, belligerent and drunk fans can ruin the experience for others.
Bad fan.
On BBI
It is people who are more concerned with their opinion than the well being of the Giants.
Someone who says the Giants will never win anything with Jones and that the general manager definitely doesn't want them because they don't pick his 5th year.
That is perfectly fine and we just disagree.
Then Jones wins 9 games with a terrible team and wins a playoff game playing historically well.
THE FAN THAT DISAPPEARS FOR THE GOOD TIMES BECAUSE IT DIDNT CONFIRM HIS NARASTIVE ONLY TO RETURN WHEN THE DUMPSTER FIRE STARTS IN ORDER TO GLOAT.
That, is a very, very, very small amount of BBI and the only kind of people I consider bad fans. I can politely disagree decades.
Not a fan of trolls.
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. A simplified game plan and bad opponents led to some good fortune last season, and masked his deficiencies. I am happy for you that you enjoyed it, but his 2023 performance shows what he is.
But, if someone started a thread today and said they were jumping ship to the Eagles because of how well run they were, I'd assume just about every comment would be saying, "good riddance".
This idea of gatekeeping fandom is asinine, juvenile, and repleat with insecurity.
Sorry bout your small dicks, bros.
Logman - your username attached to this quote brought some much needed levity to me, at least.
Sean also don’t forget that crazy clown who was rooting for the Eagles vs the Jets.
Quote:
A better fan than someone else or a “real fan”.
People are free to put as much effort into being a fan as they want.
Actually there is. Weak ass fans leave the team when they aren't doing great, and then reappear when they are good.
That's called...not being a true fan.
I thought us Giants fans had actual pride in knowing what it means to be a fan of the team.
Sure, go ahead and "leave the fanbase" because we are in a tough stretch. Whoever does that will come crawling back eventually.
Do they have to pay more for a ticket?
Swear an oath of allegiance before watching again?
Quote:
What is that?
For me, at the stadium, belligerent and drunk fans can ruin the experience for others.
Bad fan.
On BBI
It is people who are more concerned with their opinion than the well being of the Giants.
Someone who says the Giants will never win anything with Jones and that the general manager definitely doesn't want them because they don't pick his 5th year.
That is perfectly fine and we just disagree.
Then Jones wins 9 games with a terrible team and wins a playoff game playing historically well.
THE FAN THAT DISAPPEARS FOR THE GOOD TIMES BECAUSE IT DIDNT CONFIRM HIS NARASTIVE ONLY TO RETURN WHEN THE DUMPSTER FIRE STARTS IN ORDER TO GLOAT.
That, is a very, very, very small amount of BBI and the only kind of people I consider bad fans. I can politely disagree decades.
Not a fan of trolls.
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. A simplified game plan and bad opponents led to some good fortune last season, and masked his deficiencies. I am happy for you that you enjoyed it, but his 2023 performance shows what he is.
Not nearly as bad as you think he is, pretty certain Schoen and Dabol and Eli, agree with me on that take
I've made great friends over the years with people on this site with whom I've vehemently disagreed.
Unsolicited advice to anyone who cares why someone took a break -- get over yourself.
Just fuck off man. Seriously.!
We’ve had a shitty follow up year in year 2 of this regime. Not gonna sit here and cry about it on a daily basis because everyone is injured and playing poorly.
Congrats, Ryan. Good news.
Just fuck off man. Seriously.!
Can’t imagine how cranky you’re going to be when you haven’t slept for a month. You’re also about to find out how easy it is to find something else to occupy your time every Sunday.
Fair. But once years ago I got morning drunk with Lono. That was friend-ish.
Those are your words not mine. I ve seen enough good to like him as a quarterback
Just fuck off man. Seriously.!
You make your own priorities. So does everyone else. That's the point.
Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you really not understand the point?
He sucked this season even before he got injured. That's just a fact.
We'd be insane IMO-considering his overall play & injury history-to pass on a QB next spring if we're in position to draft one high.
If we go into next season rewinding it back with Jones & again hoping if we add something here or there, it'll click...we're idiots.
Quote:
.
Those are your words not mine. I ve seen enough good to like him as a quarterback
I find that to be unusual because there isn't a lot of good to have seen. I think the standard has been so low over the past 8 years that viewer's calibrations are off.
He sucked this season even before he got injured. That's just a fact.
We'd be insane IMO-considering his overall play & injury history-to pass on a QB next spring if we're in position to draft one high.
If we go into next season rewinding it back with Jones & again hoping if we add something here or there, it'll click...we're idiots.
The Giants might not have closed the door on Jones, but they will not ignore that this position just because of the health history of both quarterbacks on the roster is an area of need
The only question to be determined is where will they draft and will the value be there at that position
Just fuck off man. Seriously.!
Congrats to you and the Mrs., seriously.
That said, I'll laugh at how annoyed you'll be if your kid is born on my birthday. Sounds like it might be in play.
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.
Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.
There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.
And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.
But go on with your narrative, without the facts...
Quote:
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.
Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.
There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.
And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.
But go on with your narrative, without the facts...
I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.
I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.
Go easy on speedywheels. Like Schoen, speedy hitched his wagon to Jones and now he's in a tailspin.
Quote:
In comment 16292647 jinkies said:
Quote:
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.
Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.
There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.
And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.
But go on with your narrative, without the facts...
I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.
Herbert had the same Y/A that Jones did and he did that with somewhere in the neighborhood of 4400-4600 yards. Couple other heavy weights were close, within a few tenths.
Quote:
In comment 16292242 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
Quote:
An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
Assholish and unnecessary. He took a team that was universally agreed at the start of 2022 season as one of the worst rosters in the NFL. After a week he had practice squad receiving talent. He lead the team to 9 wins, then he won a playoff game playing historically well. Not 1 game, not a small sample.
The things I see your average social media sports fan post are so much more venomous and truly hateful.
and
Mac Jones 382 yards
look like HOFers
in addition to D Jones.
It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league.
I'm of two minds here. That performance wasn't exactly nothing.
But it's a small sample size and professional sports history is replete with outstanding individual performances -- yes, even in the playoffs -- of a level the QB rarely otherwise exhibits.
Quote:
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.
Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.
There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.
And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.
But go on with your narrative, without the facts...
What are we really arguing here? Terminology? You object to the idea that he's always been bad - fine. When was he good? When was he better than average?
Quote:
Mike White 369 yards
and
Mac Jones 382 yards
look like HOFers
in addition to D Jones.
It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league.
I'm of two minds here. That performance wasn't exactly nothing.
But it's a small sample size and professional sports history is replete with outstanding individual performances -- yes, even in the playoffs -- of a level the QB rarely otherwise exhibits.
Jones had a spectacular performance that day and it should be praised. It was a fantastic win.
But it needs to be viewed in conjunction with what happened the following weeks. Jones, even under Judge, had some great performances. But so do other average or less QBs.
Quote:
Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.
Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.
There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.
And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.
But go on with your narrative, without the facts...
But Jones is not the first bad QB to have an abnormally good year, and he won't be the last.
Anyone remember Josh Freeman?