This is from the podcast today linked below (discussion starts at the 16:50 minute mark). Bobby Skinner said he heard that John Mara believes Schoen picked his QB when they gave Jones $160M. This is likely why some of these stories have come out (Vachhiano) and Banks/Papa on twitter defending Jones.
This is really where this contract is a disaster if this is the view from ownership. Schoen & Daboll have 4 months to convince Mara otherwise (I think they will).
But, Skinner made a good point - Jones will be in the building rehabbing and working hard. I'm sure ownership will eat that up.
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It's funny cause listening to the giant insider podcast Chris B pretty much said the opposite but who knows.
We will see next spring.
This.
But if I were the owner, and my GM said we should sign our quarterback for 160mil, and 6 months later tells me we need new quarterback, I d be a bit miffed too.
If this as being perceived as typical Mara interference, I think that is an unreasonable take
In fact, if this is true and Giants draft a quarterback, it will turn out that Mara is not at all like the Maranoia, people believe
I'm hoping they have a frank discussion about the season, and how they have an opportunity to improve in a way that they never expected last year when they signed him.
This never would even be a consideration 20 years ago, but recently teams are more willing to pivot and draft/sign/trade etc... earlier than trying to make it work and failing.
49ers trade 3 1st round picks to trade up and draft Lance, then 2 years later they trade him for pennies on the dollar. (Sidebar: do they make this trade if they didn't have Purdy?)
Cardinals draft Kyler Murray a year after taking Josh Rosen. Murray was considered a can't miss player and so they cut bait on Rosen a year later. Granted, they had a new HC, but they were willing to grab the guy they wanted regardless of who was in the building.
The Giants were in a similar situation when they drafted Eli. Collins was in the building, and was still able to have success, but EA knew that you never let anything get in the way of taking a HOF QB.
I think if you have the opportunity to make your team better exponentially, then you have to do it.
Can you imagine the reaction across the NFL if that happened?
Clearly the signing was predicated on Jones continued improvement, which didn't happen. In fact, he actually looked worse than at anytime with the Giants. Throw in two serious injuries.
No doubt John will be in WTF mode, but shit happens. Players get hurt and they fail. The contract was structured(and he would know this) to be able to get out after two years. I am sure that was explained to him.
I'm hoping they have a frank discussion about the season, and how they have an opportunity to improve in a way that they never expected last year when they signed him.
This never would even be a consideration 20 years ago, but recently teams are more willing to pivot and draft/sign/trade etc... earlier than trying to make it work and failing.
49ers trade 3 1st round picks to trade up and draft Lance, then 2 years later they trade him for pennies on the dollar. (Sidebar: do they make this trade if they didn't have Purdy?)
Cardinals draft Kyler Murray a year after taking Josh Rosen. Murray was considered a can't miss player and so they cut bait on Rosen a year later. Granted, they had a new HC, but they were willing to grab the guy they wanted regardless of who was in the building.
The Giants were in a similar situation when they drafted Eli. Collins was in the building, and was still able to have success, but EA knew that you never let anything get in the way of taking a HOF QB.
I think if you have the opportunity to make your team better exponentially, then you have to do it.
I like Jones and understand that with an at least avg OL he can give you a shot to compete. However we have no backup at the moment QB (TT is nice but also prone to injury) and no DECENT developmental QB, so QB is a need since the one we have is injured and has a play style that increases the probability of another injury. Not to mention the latest injury is to one of his biggest assest. We go QB with either Drake or Williams if either is there. The real question is do you cluster draft in the 2nd rd for OL or use 1 2nder on a WR or OLB/DE?
Normally I am pro BPA but our OL is just bad bad and conventional thinking needs to be reconsidered. Jones or not no QB is going to thrive under the current OL conditons. Trade a 2nder for a vet OL (get a known entity). A 2nder during the draft has more value than in the off-season.
Yes, that and an army of other poor decisions to draw on as examples. When they picked Jones I feared for five seasons of bad football. I fear if they bypass a QB for Jones, we're staring at how many more before they get another opportunity to draft, and everyone is "comfortable" pulling the trigger.
How is Is structured explains that plan. They have to go through next season and can get out of it reasonably.
I have no doubt Schoen is scouting USC and UNC lately with a QB in mind.
2) The worst decisions by people in any line of business are made by those who double down or try to save face.
Although the sports are different and there's no salary cap in baseball, Mara can learn from what Steve Cohen did this past MLB season. Mets spent crazy money and went for it. Didn't work out. Didn't try to make silly trades at the deadline to save face. Ripped the band aid off and pivoted.
We all know Jones will be here, that's fine. I actually love a rookie QB hanging around a guy with the work ethic and character Jones possesses. He will be either an expensive backup QB or short term bridge QB and you hope by the middle of the year or next offseason Jones establishes some trade value. If not, you cut him before the 25 season and move on.
2 neck injuries and a torn ACL. A quarterback must be selected with a premium pick and given an opportunity to win the job. That's the way forward.
I thought for sure the Jones was Mara's guy - like the LL dad that played his son at SS (looked the part, even played well for stretches, but was mediocre at best)....
I thought the contract they gave DJ with the 2nd year out was a half-ass commitment and I was operating under the assumption that out was due Daboll/Schoen wanting it in there.
Time to move on. Barkley should have taken the Bye Week offer, but he didn't.
They are here now and lamenting does nothing.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
Injury can undermine any contract made by any GM
Any player ( except Mahomes) can be had for the right price.
that includes Williams and Maye. If they can get 3 ones or 2 ones and 2 twos for the pick they can fill a lot of holes
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
Sean, I hear you but I don't think it was a few games. Once they withheld the 5th year option, all of 2022 became an audition.
Now if you want to tell me, the Minnesota playoff game was his only sort of pro-bowl/all pro type performance, I'd probably agree with that, but he played the QB position very efficiently last year. Not to mention, each time Schoen and Daboll were asked about him their answer never wavered, "Daniel has done exactly what we've asked him to do". Now it's clear they didn't seem to be asking very much in terms of the offensive game plans, but then the question would become was that because of Jones or because of the skill people around him. With the contract they gave out it's clear they felt it was the latter. Even with that though, they still hedged with the 2-year out.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
You are all over the place man. Schoen signed Jones to what amounts to a 2 year deal at market value. Jones had just brought the Giants to the last 4 teams of the NFC conference by playing great down the stretch until the Eagles killed us. He had played the first year in Daboll's system and looked comfortable. I imagine both him and Daboll were comfortable with him as the QB for the following two seasons and did not expect this season to go as it did with injuries and poor play. Tell me how he misjudged this thing so poorly? Tell me what you would have done differently that would have been so much better for the franchise? You franchise tag Jones? OK, so then you basically have what, 1 less year? That doesn't mean much.
I knew what you meant and I agree with your sentiments 100%.
I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
Yea but what you're referencing is the short-term/long-term tight rope they were walking, they wanted Jones and Barkley here this year. They felt they threaded the needle.
2025 is not insignificant but it's also not worth everyone running around here with their hair on fire. If they take the QB like they need to, they'll be ok.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
It would have been a risk to do the unpopular thing, and I understand why a rookie GM/HC went along with it. They don't have the pelts on the wall to have earned the benefit of the doubt.
Their presumptions : 1. Jones proved he wasn’t injury prone . 2. They would not be slotted high enough to get one of the QBs in the next draft . Here, they were misled by their success last year . Both presumptions were wrong . They were wrong on Waller . They were also wrong about the state of the offensive line . I’ll set aside the defense for now as that involved another set of complications .
The Giants are in a terrible spot . Ownership must be seething . Perhaps they don’t have a right to be but they do own it ..
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
That contract (and FA addition/trade) signifies to me the expectation was to be a good team and one that competes for a division or is at least playing meaningful games at the end for a playoff spot.
More of the discussion should be centered on all the other aspects of the team and not just Jones imv. This includes coaching.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
Well - you are of the opinion that it was a fuck up. I am not there yet.
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IMO.
It's just speculation, however, after the Colts and wild card game victories, you had to know Jones was coming back at all costs.
Hence the two-year out in the contract. Mara gets Jones, and Schoen gets a new QB if it doesn't work.
Nothing says "You're our franchise QB Daniel" like a two-year guarantee.
It would have been a risk to do the unpopular thing, and I understand why a rookie GM/HC went along with it. They don't have the pelts on the wall to have earned the benefit of the doubt.
100% IMO.
Seems like we have trouble finding GMs/HCs who have had previous success...
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
I have a hard time believing they fall out of the top 3 and with Daniels rocketing up draft boards they should be guaranteed one of those guys.
And as much as people scream about it, if there is a guy they really like among the McCarthy, Nix, Penix group you can go Harrison or Edge and then get one of those guys in the 2nd or slide back in late round 1 with the extra 2.
Should be plenty of options.
Their presumptions : 1. Jones proved he wasn’t injury prone . 2. They would not be slotted high enough to get one of the QBs in the next draft . Here, they were misled by their success last year . Both presumptions were wrong . They were wrong on Waller . They were also wrong about the state of the offensive line . I’ll set aside the defense for now as that involved another set of complications .
The Giants are in a terrible spot . Ownership must be seething . Perhaps they don’t have a right to be but they do own it ..
Sure looked like it when he flipped the iPad in his direction...
I cannot see Daboll backing Jones whatsoever.
That contract (and FA addition/trade) signifies to me the expectation was to be a good team and one that competes for a division or is at least playing meaningful games at the end for a playoff spot.
More of the discussion should be centered on all the other aspects of the team and not just Jones imv. This includes coaching.
Agreed.
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LOL Ryan's a big spoofer.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
Well - you are of the opinion that it was a fuck up. I am not there yet.
LOL what?
Why would you love drafting a quarterback if Jones wasn't a mistake?