This is from the podcast today linked below (discussion starts at the 16:50 minute mark). Bobby Skinner said he heard that John Mara believes Schoen picked his QB when they gave Jones $160M. This is likely why some of these stories have come out (Vachhiano) and Banks/Papa on twitter defending Jones.
This is really where this contract is a disaster if this is the view from ownership. Schoen & Daboll have 4 months to convince Mara otherwise (I think they will).
But, Skinner made a good point - Jones will be in the building rehabbing and working hard. I'm sure ownership will eat that up.
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I also think the "out" after 2 years is overblown. It's stlll a $22M dead cap hit in 2025 which is not insignificant.
With the benefit of hindsight, sure, in some ways it would've been better to tag him in 2023. But suppose Jones had another season like 22 this year? We are probably looking at $45m++ AAV and we don't get either Thomas or Lawrence done in the last offseason.
With a ~$280 million cap in 2025, and presumably a QB on a rookie deal, $22m is a big hit, but it's totally manageable for one season.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
If that's the case, this organization is a bigger clown show than it's current perception.
Let me explain. I'm totally on board with Williams or Maye. Don't want anyone else. But I also think Jones can be a winning quarterback and wouldn't care if they continued to build up the team around him. They are paying him for next year and a small-ish dead cap for 2025.
So, yeah, I don't necessarily think it was a mistake. Jones tore his knee against the Raiders, Taylor is hurt, we are playing with a third string quarterback. Jones hurt his neck earlier in the season because he had been pressured about 25 times per fucking game.
So, that's my opinion dude. Get the fuck over it already.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
The fact that they would be looking to draft his successor has more to do with the top 2 players at the position and the fact that the team is horrendous this year, and it would possibly be malpractice not to take Williams or Maye considering they are much better prospects than Jones.
If Maye or Williams aren't in this draft, they probably aren't even considering it.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
I think Schoen has an eye for talent to fair degree with how he's building front office, but its clear there's been some "learning curve" on some of the machinations of roster management, philosophy, etc.
The contract for Jones made no sense and still in retrospect makes no sense even moreso - even forgetting about the injury problems in past and this year. I don't care what other franchises are doing with QB scale. Jones never deserved what he got.
There's no reason Jones should have gotten anything more than 25m per season for 2 years. Defies logic to give a QB that much money and then hedge on idea and belief that he needs a lot of help around him to simply "elevate" and win big games. He needs a lot of help and control to win games, period. Thats a mediocre QB if there ever was one, and Jones, just "is" as Sy likes to say.
It also continues to be highly offensive when people say the Giants "broke" Jones. Wrong. The organization just makes wrong decisions, which "breaks" the fanbase, which includes drafting Jones and believing he's a guy to keep going on and on and running it back with.
Haha...right. So I answer your question like I always do for the 100th time, that you still somehow don't understand, and target all of my posts because of it...and now you are gaslighting me about being angry. Give me a break dude. Just leave it be.
Simms11 - I don't disagree. This more to Mara and Tisch. How do they go to ownership? They shouldn't have to, the results are on the field. It was the right decision at the time and now the landscape has changed.
It happens, I've seen it.
Giants will have their new QB that Schoen (and ultimately Daboll) will sink or swim with in for 2024.
Giants are in a very tricky spot now having just paid Jones and 6 games later looking to replace him already. It's not good.
Why is it a tricky spot?
Is QB a need? You make the decision NOW.
It's only as tricky as you want to make it.
Schoen might realize that trading for future 1s could be the best move. I don't know. But to think of how many elite type talented players you could add to your team over time with trading down is enticing, if someone wants to do it.
The roster the last 10 years has been really top heavy plauyers 1-4 and then nothing for players 5-22. Could be the perfect time to change that.
There are pros and cons to both.
There ya go.
That's why it not tricky at all. Admit the mistake and move on.
What do they say, the cover up is always worse that the actual crime?
If the Giants attempt to "cover this up" they'll hurt themselves even more and send the team into more years of pre Halloween elimination.
I suspect if the Giants felt Jones was a top tier quarterback, an ACL and neck strain wouldn't be cause to move on.
So, I get it, QB likely needs to be the pick if Maye or Williams are staring them in the face. But nothing is a guarantee with any player and there's something to be said for setting your franchise up for massive draft capital if that offer is there.
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He got injured twice, both serious. We will have one of the top 2 picks in the draft. Changes everything.
I suspect if the Giants felt Jones was a top tier quarterback, an ACL and neck strain wouldn't be cause to move on.
Not sure. That’s his second neck injury. Another could end his career. The knee not only means he probably won’t be ready to start next year but likely compromises his mobility which is key for him. We’ll see.
So, I get it, QB likely needs to be the pick if Maye or Williams are staring them in the face. But nothing is a guarantee with any player and there's something to be said for setting your franchise up for massive draft capital if that offer is there.
The difference is Jones was not a slotted top 10 pick.
They reached, and it has failed overall. Sometimes a reach works, this did not.
These guys are, and at the very top of the rung.
Would you rather a fuck up cost you 32M or 82M?
The franchise tag also doesn’t have a cap hit into 2025. So it’s not “one year less”.
It was a big mistake that can’t be hand waived away like nothing is wrong. That being said, I have faith in Schoen to get it right.
1. Jones is injury prone with his style of play
2. He didnt elevate the team (yes the OL is bad) enough as a franchise QB
But seeing that it had a 2 year "out", Im suspecting they were hedging on Jones...give him 2 years to show it under new leadership. If he fails then draft another QB.
With his injuries, It moves this process along faster. I would think ownership and Coach and GM can agree on that moving forward.
Paying a guy that doesn't work out 82M for two years, when could have paid 32M for one is a big mistake.
The year isn't finished. I could list a bunch of what ifs.
What if Daboll breaks down over the next 7 weeks and has a Judge meltdown?
DeVito starts playing really well.
Tyrod comes back and we win out?
Andrew Thomas comes back and blows his ACL?
More players make business decision, sit out games for boo boo's and lose every remaining game by at least 20(most likely of the what ifs)
Personally, I would draft QB.
What if they get the first pick and trade it away for the biggest haul in history? Are we much farther than a QB away?
What if the Bills offer us Josh Allen for the first pick in the draft?
Ignoring everything said on BBI.
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
he was just coming off a neck injury in which we had no idea the severity of and even when he played in 2021, it was rather middling.
Yeah with the benefit of hindsight Schoen should have done so, but it wouldn’t have made sense to do it then
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
Seems like taking a break could be good for you too, amigo.
Schoen gave Jones $160M based on a few games in 2022, but did not look at the full picture. It would be like the Patriots giving Mac Jones $160M after his rookie season and playoff appearance.
Mara influence or not, Schoen handled this negotiation extremely poorly. He misjudged the market.
the 5th year option was the right move for Jones. 2 yr prove it is better for the team. and would have been cheaper.
The year isn't finished. I could list a bunch of what ifs.
What if Daboll breaks down over the next 7 weeks and has a Judge meltdown?
DeVito starts playing really well.
Tyrod comes back and we win out?
Andrew Thomas comes back and blows his ACL?
More players make business decision, sit out games for boo boo's and lose every remaining game by at least 20(most likely of the what ifs)
Personally, I would draft QB.
What if they get the first pick and trade it away for the biggest haul in history? Are we much farther than a QB away?
What if the Bills offer us Josh Allen for the first pick in the draft?
Ignoring everything said on BBI.
Football for NY Giants fans no longer brings enough enjoyment to invest the time to watch.
Last year was unexpected and joyous.
This year the same much of the last 10.
What anyone on this board thinks about what is wrong or how to fix it is worth about as much as a good kick in the nuts at this point.
Your posts are brutal. In what you say and how you say it.
just brutal
he was just coming off a neck injury in which we had no idea the severity of and even when he played in 2021, it was rather middling.
Yeah with the benefit of hindsight Schoen should have done so, but it wouldn’t have made sense to do it then
DG decision to set the WR market on a guy no one else was interested in was a mistake regardless of hindsight.
They had a front row seat for Jones in 2022. It was a reasonable decision and a good contract. I am sure Jones hits NONE of the incentives.
It would have been a very risky move not to bring Jones back after he won that playoff game, I though Schoen did well. They were NEVER letting him walk after that game, and no GM would have let him go. You folks playing Madden on BBI don't live in reality.
This team had sucked for a decade and won a playoff game. Jones was coming back after that. I thought Schoen did well in negotiations.
* Jones improved in 2022 and won a playoff game, moving on from him after this would have been tremendously difficult in the public eye
* Due to draft position and what was available on the open market, there was no real path to upgrading the QB position this year that wouldn't involve some sort of risk
* The contract signed, as expected, wound up being a middle of the road contract for QBs once things shook out
* The contract also noticeably has an out after year 2
Regardless of all the reports we've seen, my gut says that they were never really THAT committed to Jones and had no intention of him playing out all 4 years of this contract. Its more likely that the plan was for Jones to be a stop gap to buy them 1 to 2 more years before they could get their franchise guy with the upside that if he took another jump from 2022, you could just extend him and keep him.
If Schoen really felt that this was HIS guy, I think the contract would have been longer than 4 years and wouldn't have taken until the last minute to sign. This never struck me as an "all in" contract.
* Jones improved in 2022 and won a playoff game, moving on from him after this would have been tremendously difficult in the public eye
* Due to draft position and what was available on the open market, there was no real path to upgrading the QB position this year that wouldn't involve some sort of risk
* The contract signed, as expected, wound up being a middle of the road contract for QBs once things shook out
* The contract also noticeably has an out after year 2
Regardless of all the reports we've seen, my gut says that they were never really THAT committed to Jones and had no intention of him playing out all 4 years of this contract. Its more likely that the plan was for Jones to be a stop gap to buy them 1 to 2 more years before they could get their franchise guy with the upside that if he took another jump from 2022, you could just extend him and keep him.
If Schoen really felt that this was HIS guy, I think the contract would have been longer than 4 years and wouldn't have taken until the last minute to sign. This never struck me as an "all in" contract.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
There are pros and cons to both.
That’s fair, I just think it is easier to fill one position than half a dozen. SF is a great example, but they were able to find studs like Deebo, Kittle and Warner in later rounds. That didn’t preclude them from giving up a massive package to get Trey Lance.
If we have the chance to get a game changing QB, we have to take that shot.
1) The Giants would be complete morons to actively say they are looking at QBs in the draft at this point in time. There a variety of obvious reasons for that.
2) If you have a top 3 pick and have a chance at a QB you think can be top 5 in the league you have to take him unless you already have a top 5 guy. I like Jones a lot, but he isn't even top 10 when at his best and not injured.
3) I wouldn't be surprised to see Daniel Jones ready for week 1 (he'll work his ass off to get there) and starting even if they pick a QB on round 1. It depends whether or not the Giants are willing to have another down year, record wise. It would be hard for them to watch a rookie go through his struggles while your backup QB is sitting there counting $40MM against the cap, or whatever it is.
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but my prior post is meant to say the optics of such a choice could easily be put on the GM/HC.
If this is true, and Mara was told that DJ is their QB of the future, then ownership should be pissed.
1. Jones is injury prone with his style of play
2. He didnt elevate the team (yes the OL is bad) enough as a franchise QB
But seeing that it had a 2 year "out", Im suspecting they were hedging on Jones...give him 2 years to show it under new leadership. If he fails then draft another QB.
With his injuries, It moves this process along faster. I would think ownership and Coach and GM can agree on that moving forward.
Or you could look at it the other way, ownership wanted them to roll with Jones (not arguing that they forced it), but GM/HC pay for what the front office wanted.
Most everyone here saw the contract for what it was, to keep the DJ in the building for a couple of years to see if a) they could bring his level of play up, or b) look for a replacement. If Mara couldn’t see that, it’s on him.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
1) The Giants would be complete morons to actively say they are looking at QBs in the draft at this point in time. There a variety of obvious reasons for that.
2) If you have a top 3 pick and have a chance at a QB you think can be top 5 in the league you have to take him unless you already have a top 5 guy. I like Jones a lot, but he isn't even top 10 when at his best and not injured.
3) I wouldn't be surprised to see Daniel Jones ready for week 1 (he'll work his ass off to get there) and starting even if they pick a QB on round 1. It depends whether or not the Giants are willing to have another down year, record wise. It would be hard for them to watch a rookie go through his struggles while your backup QB is sitting there counting $40MM against the cap, or whatever it is.
On point 3, why would we think an ACL recovering Jones would be better for the Giants record than a rookie?
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Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
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In comment 16292166 christian said:
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Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
Within this you touch on the disadvantage of playing in NYC. In Buffalo you let Tyrod walk, maybe one reporter writes an article criticizing, that's it.
In NYC/North Jersey, you wind up having the whole world picking apart this decision, talking about it on TV, calling for heads etc... The Giants ownership has always been very sensitive to this whether they should or shouldn't be.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
It's not like a crop of corn. You don't always get good QBs every year.
Can't just punt to 2025.
When the draft spot (+/-) and talent intersect, you have to act.
First, Jones played like garbage. Like the 32nd best QB in a 32 team league.
Then, he got hurt. Twice.
Stop the rationalizing. Be honest. You're not fooling anybody but yourselves.
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Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
Nonsense. It's a terrible contract.
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In comment 16292166 christian said:
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Personally, I wanted the Giants to try and trade or cut Jones after the 2021 season.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
In Hindsight, yes without question.
At the time, it was the right call and it was negotiated very well in my opinion considering his position of weakness at the table.
Christian I have been watching football my whole life(you too), I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion. I can agree it today, it was an incorrect move but Schoen did well that we have an out.
Are you really suggesting an NFL could do this?
How would it have played in the locker room?
The fans.
Jones deal was done the day the clock went to zero in Minnesota. He was signing a deal here, it was only a matter of how much and how long.
Good contract.
The Bills let Tyrod walk after he broke an 18 year playoff drought.
Also, you can't just claim "hindsight is 20/20" when plenty of people here were wary of this type of move before it even happened. While yes it is clear to all now, there are many who worried about this exact situation and advocated for the FT or letting him walk
NAME DATE ROUND TM OPP REC W% CMP ATT PCT YDS AVG TD TD% INT INT% SCK SCKY RATE
Tyrod Taylor illustrationTyrod Taylor
1/7/2018 AFC Wild Card
BUF logoBUF
@
JAX logoJAX
0-1 .000 17 37 45.9 134 3.6 0 0.0 1 2.7 2 15 44.2
Are you sure he won and played well?