This is from the podcast today linked below (discussion starts at the 16:50 minute mark). Bobby Skinner said he heard that John Mara believes Schoen picked his QB when they gave Jones $160M. This is likely why some of these stories have come out (Vachhiano) and Banks/Papa on twitter defending Jones.
This is really where this contract is a disaster if this is the view from ownership. Schoen & Daboll have 4 months to convince Mara otherwise (I think they will).
But, Skinner made a good point - Jones will be in the building rehabbing and working hard. I'm sure ownership will eat that up.
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In comment 16292242 BillKo said:
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In comment 16292226 Go Terps said:
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An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
Safe and loved.....hehe.
You should try your hand at fiction.
Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't.
Assholish and unnecessary. He took a team that was universally agreed at the start of 2022 season as one of the worst rosters in the NFL. After a week he had practice squad receiving talent. He lead the team to 9 wins, then he won a playoff game playing historically well. Not 1 game, not a small sample.
Considering that, it was at least a reasonable signing.
Before you post an encyclopedia of stats, I will counter with his 2022 QBR. He played very well in 2022, YOUR WORDS WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT WE SAW AND FELT.
I equate greatness with wins and championships.
Michael over Lebron
Eli over Marino(I know this pisses people off, Marino is the best pure passer I ever saw but not a great leader.)
I do understand that this is a something we need to agree to disagree on. This argument has endured for ages. It is just who we are individually.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree then. Yes, Jones played better last year, but the prior 3 years weren’t even backup level football. And his performance last year was wildly overstated by most of BBI, he did most of his damage with his legs. This is the NFL, QB’s need to make plays in the passing game. Defenses have schemed how to keep him in the pocket, where his weaknesses are multiplied.
Jones is basically Sam Bradford with speed. If you think that’s worth an $82M guarantee, that’s your right, but I certainly don’t. The contract was bad, the only thing that saves it from being among the worst in team history is that they can get out from under it without too much penalty after 2 years.
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In comment 16292271 JonC said:
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and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
You must love torturing yourself, or just others on this thread lol
Hopefully, it all evolves into picking a new QB. It will require a significant shift in the Mara opinion of Jones to potentially admit a big error in judgement and financial commitment. Right now, the recent stuff in media flags differently.
I think there's time to convince Mara of idealistic decisions that make sense going into future. Jones injuries now also present that construct.
I admire his effort to want a player to succeed to a fair degree, but things change, times change, circumstances and opportunities present themselves and it's why owners need to allow voices in room to argue and present alternative thinking or opinion (which to be fair, I believe Mara encourages and allows).
In this case, it just makes zero financial sense either holding Jones thinking it will work next 4-5 yrs. And the Jones crowd keeps blaming the roster is so bad, this and that. Well then, why is Jones being kept here, if this is such a multi-year rebuild? Then it turns to blaming Schoen for giving him the contract, or not drafting well quick enough to "help" Daniel. If you remove that narrative, it's blame "Daboll, Kafka, Bobby Johnson".
Jones isn't going to get cheaper even if he has a marginal/middle of road season in 2024 by some chance. Giants would be forced to rework his deal again and he's not taking a discount.
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and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I believe it would criminal not to take a QB if we draft high because even if Jones keeps the Job and plays lights out, you will get a HAUL in trade by waiting and either trading the rookie or Jones to a team in need.
However, if they do draft a QB early can we drop the Mara intrigue. They did not pick up year 5. That does say something, no?
I know there was meddling, not saying it was made up. It appears like Schoen has autonomy to me, April will be telling.
The ONLY way another team is taking Jones is if the Giants eat a ton of his contract or cut him. No one, and I mean NO ONE is absorbing that contract.
A quick pivot is the sign of people who recognize that they erred and are moving away from it. My inclination is that there's more of that in Schoen than there is in Mara.
People got carried away with that clown circus win over the Colts last season. Their defense was a joke playing third stringers.
Overall the 2nd half of the season was a couple good games, couple poor games, and generally "meh" performances in the other few.
If Mara really listened to fan sentiment, it's going to be overwhelmingly in favor of 80/20-ish given how this season played out, draft one of the studs.
These guys are generational talents - from what I have read - it would really be unimaginable to pass up.
That's why I think all this chatter is just, well, chatter. Something to fill the time as we continue to roll into oblivion.
I think you have a lot of great insight, but I don't think this is very likely. A lot can change between now and April, but is Schoen really going to trade down when he has a chance to draft Williams or Maye? Doubtful. Daniels maybe. But the other two? As of now, I'd be very surprised if that happened.
I think the Giants will take a QB no later than the top of round two, and I could easily see them packaging both second round picks to move back into the first for a QB, if only for the fifth year option.
Then I give up.
Remember, this is an organization that once spent a draft pick on a guy who didn't make the team because he used to mow Wellington's lawn when he was a kid.
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and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I think you have a lot of great insight, but I don't think this is very likely. A lot can change between now and April, but is Schoen really going to trade down when he has a chance to draft Williams or Maye? Doubtful. Daniels maybe. But the other two? As of now, I'd be very surprised if that happened.
I think the Giants will take a QB no later than the top of round two, and I could easily see them packaging both second round picks to move back into the first for a QB, if only for the fifth year option.
Acid/Sammo, a lot can change and hopefully in April we see it. I have to think logic, facts, and common sense will prevail. But, it should've happened before now, lol.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
Remember, this is an organization that once spent a draft pick on a guy who didn't make the team because he used to mow Wellington's lawn when he was a kid.
Who was that? lol
hahahaha, right? This about sums up the entire thread.
I'd say JV defense is a bit unfair.....it was a very good win, playoffs and on the road.
It is disqualifying. He is not a starter in this league. Tyrod Taylor was more functional.
There is no scenario where Jones returns to a normal offense and plays "lights out".
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I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
That's what makes this illogical.
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It was a nice statistical day against a JV defense. He wants to elevate it to the status of a Super Bowl win. In a division playoff game against a rival with a good defense, Jones was horrendous.
I'd say JV defense is a bit unfair.....it was a very good win, playoffs and on the road.
Actually, a historically bad pass D. Even Vikings fans admit.
Boston College TE Todd Pollack in 1998. Only a sixth round pick, but still.
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In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
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I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
The Viking game is cited frequently like it was an incredible achievement. You don't see the Eagle game brought up much though.
Oh...did the trial balloons lose their air already?
31st in passing yards allowed
22nd in sacks and QB hits
24th in completion % allowed
and
Mac Jones 382 yards
look like HOFers
in addition to D Jones.
It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league.
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Who was that? lol
Boston College TE Todd Pollack in 1998. Only a sixth round pick, but still.
Never heard that story, thanks.
He had ample opportunity to secure Jones for less money, and he chose this path. As it stands it looks like a mistake.
If the Giants draft a quarterback on round one, it's debatable whether the Giants will even play Jones in 2024.
Why would they risk putting a recovering Jones on the field, and risk triggering his 2025 injury guarantee.
The chances of Jones gloriously returning to the field and netting a king's ransom in a trade is delusional.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
He had ample opportunity to secure Jones for less money, and he chose this path. As it stands it looks like a mistake.
If the Giants draft a quarterback on round one, it's debatable whether the Giants will even play Jones in 2024.
Why would they risk putting a recovering Jones on the field, and risk triggering his 2025 injury guarantee.
The chances of Jones gloriously returning to the field and netting a king's ransom in a trade is delusional.
This is where I'm at. It is Schoen's job to sell Mara on the direction of the team. If Mara wanted Jones back (and I fully believe Schoen did as well), he should have explained why the tag would make more sense. Or why allowing him to test the market would make sense.
With the assumption that the Giants would continue to build and compete, the contract is not that bad. But, the contract assumes Jones would take another step.
Sitting here at 2-8 where Jones had another neck injury and season ending ACL, the contract looks awful. As GM, Schoen owns that.
The regime owns the fact that they lost 40-0 week 1 to Dallas. It also owns the fact that the vibe around the franchise was victory laps after last season.
Do we think we'll see Schoen and Daboll at a Ranger game anytime soon?
I need a break from the Giants if that happens. Running it back with Jones is completely insane.
What do you mean? John Mara is the owner. The buck stops with him.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
I completely understand why you wish to ignore the compelling data that
1. the 2022 Vikings pass D, and D in general, was abysmal
2. Daniel Jones fails against good defenses and apart from the first 7 games of last season has a record of failure
3. Jones has an all-time record of failure in prime time games.
4. Jones can't function in a normal offense with professional downfield passing
5. Jones' performance in 2023, prior to the injury, is absolutely disqualifying him as a starter in the NFL.
Jones has been unmasked as a fraud.
With the assumption that the Giants would continue to build and compete, the contract is not that bad. But, the contract assumes Jones would take another step.
Sitting here at 2-8 where Jones had another neck injury and season ending ACL, the contract looks awful. As GM, Schoen owns that.
The regime owns the fact that they lost 40-0 week 1 to Dallas. It also owns the fact that the vibe around the franchise was victory laps after last season.
Do we think we'll see Schoen and Daboll at a Ranger game anytime soon?
I hope Schoen has the courage and influence to convince his boss that he made a mistake, and that's that.
Jones will be a Giant next year, because there's virtually no reasonable way he can be traded or cut.
I won't be surprised if they slow play his return, and ultimately keep him off the field so as to not risk a trigger to his injury guarantee.
Denial
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In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
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I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
I must have missed it, because I don’t see anything that would have made his performance “historic”. It was a terrific game, no doubt, probably the best of his career, but here’s the thing - even mediocre QB’s have really good games. Now Daniel did it under the bright lights of the playoffs, so he gets credit for that, but it’s not like other run of the mill QB’s haven’t.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
Yep. This is a big issue and both sides are extreme. Whether it's comparing Jones to Josh Allen on one extreme or saying any backup QB is better than Jones on the other extreme.
They were a playoff team, and hosted a playoff game. Sure they were flawed and the Giants took advantage of that.
From a team perspective, it was a tremendous win, esp since the team had not won a playoff game since 2011.
Heck, if we are going to call them a JV defense maybe it was an equal battle, with the Giants JV offense (as we have found out this year) lol
Sure the Eagles whipped us but the Eagles last year were a matchup nightmare for what we were putting out there.
It’s not overblown. They were an atrocious defense and one of the worst to ever make the playoffs. The stats on that subject are not debatable.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
This is why the lunatics on this site like to claim some kind of personal animosity against Jones when they read legit criticisms.
Lol. I'm not saying he pulled one over on us. I'm saying he is not an NFL starter and got paid near elite dollars. He's a fraud. Does not necessarily imply he knowingly cheated us.
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What’s your theory?
I thought for sure the Jones was Mara's guy - like the LL dad that played his son at SS (looked the part, even played well for stretches, but was mediocre at best)....
I thought the contract they gave DJ with the 2nd year out was a half-ass commitment and I was operating under the assumption that out was due Daboll/Schoen wanting it in there.
I think this is true.
The "2 year out" was likely a compromise between ownership and Schoen and Daboll. It gave Jones more time to prove himself or get to the next level which ownership wanted, a long enough window to appease Jones' camp, and enough flexibility so that it's not too long-term to hamstring Shoen and Daboll's future plans.
Mara played chicken with this commitment and lost.
I fully expect Shoen and Daboll to jump at the opportunity to move on from Jones that's in front of them. The chances of being top 3 in the draft again are not great or reliable, you have to strike now.
The Giants need to stop pussyfooting. Daniel Jones is not winning this team a Super Bowl, period... Get the guy in here who can.
NFL, more than most sports, is subject to unpredictable swings, owing to small sample sizes, for individual and team performances.