This is from the podcast today linked below (discussion starts at the 16:50 minute mark). Bobby Skinner said he heard that John Mara believes Schoen picked his QB when they gave Jones $160M. This is likely why some of these stories have come out (Vachhiano) and Banks/Papa on twitter defending Jones.
This is really where this contract is a disaster if this is the view from ownership. Schoen & Daboll have 4 months to convince Mara otherwise (I think they will).
But, Skinner made a good point - Jones will be in the building rehabbing and working hard. I'm sure ownership will eat that up.
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This is Mara et al using the media with a purpose, they've done it every late season where it's been a shitshow and jobs are on the line. They care about fan sentiment, probably too much.
If they cared about fan sentiment, wouldn't that point firmly to their moving on from Jones? Yes, Jones has his apologists, but I have to believe the overwhelming sentiment is that we're done making excuses for poor performance and enough is enough. No?
I think the problem is the apologists tend to be the louder group, or at least loud enough for a listener that's specifically hoping for that particular feedback.
Fan sentiment was the driving factor in McAdoo and Reese getting canned. Fan sentiment caused the about-face on Abrams and the firing of Judge. Fan sentiment probably led to Gettleman as an Eli-centric crony choice in the wake of 2017's dumpster fire.
Medium Pepsi jokes aside, there are times when John Mara cares a little too much about what the fans think. And other times when his organization decides to use their comms team to try to tell the fans how they're supposed to feel.
It's all a little dysfunctional.
1. They have the #1 or #2 pick and they draft Maye or Williams, cool, everyone would love that I would think
2. They have the #1 or #2 pick and some team offers their next 3 years #1s for the selection, Schoen takes it, while not moving too far down in the draft. This sets the team up to have a loaded roster for the next 3-4 seasons and you roll with Jones, sign a veteran backup, and let it shake out, can always shift to QB for 2025 draft with the picks you have
3. We end up in the 3 or 4 draft slot, nobody is really looking or wanting to trade, and select Marvin Harrison Jr, and then have 2 second rounders to play with. Still a good outcome.
The one thing I'd like to avoid is sending a ransom to move up to get the QB.
Option 2 could still mean you pick a QB from the spot you trade down to, or use the future picks to move around to get a QB this draft.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
I'll be in honest in saying the Giants have interested me less and less each day since hiring DG and drafting Jones, etc.
It's partially because of those inflection point poor decisions and countless poor decisions since then ... also my son being born, my career getting to stupid mega busy levels all contributing to my dwindled free time for football. But, ever since they drafted Jones my interest has really dwindled, and they haven't proven me wrong yet on the path(s) they've chosen. I'm not dumping them, but they desperately need to fix their house, stat.
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In comment 16292178 Thegratefulhead said:
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I can't think of a scenario where a team was legit bad for a good stretch, finally won a playoff game and let the QB walk after he won in historic fashion.
Not to miller the thread, but I've seen you use this specific description quite often. What was historic about it besides the fact that it happened in the past?
If you have seen that description 'quite often' you have also seen the historic component explained. but by all means, continue being a dickhead. it's your defining characteristic.
What was historic about it? I'm not kidding, I have never seen the explanation, just the constant repetition of the adjective.
Just because you seem to care about what others think doesn't mean you are really listening to them.
Agreed.
I'm fucking done if Mara sticks his nose in dictating the QB to Shoen and Daboll.
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I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
My statement was a general/broad statement so I definitely am underestimating fans frustration. However, It seems tough to 'quit' a team. I think that is usually a gradual process that starts with focusing less attention on the team (some fans are there already). I don't think any of the fans on this particular message that claim they may be done as fans if the giants don't take a top qb prospect really believe themselves that they will be done.
Btw. I can see a scenario where the Giants can't pass up a guy like Harrison Jr if they like a qb that isn't rated quite as high as the top prospects with a hope of trading up later or if they really like a qb prospect that will be in the '25 class. I get that passing on this class of qbs would be a pretty big risk, but if the Giants feel that a guy like Harrison Jr is just too good to pass up, I could see that.
Personally, I would prefer to get one of the big named qbs this year, but not going qb with the first pick is not necessarily an endorsement of Daniel Jones.
But when they decided to keep him, Schoen should have read the tea leaves better.
Jones's health was cleared before the 5th year option deadline. He should have realized ownership was fully in Jones's corner and the burden of proof to cut ties after one year would be very high.
He had an opportunity to make a 22M mistake, a 32M mistake, or ultimately an 82M mistake.
He didn't do a good thing. Let's be real.
Regardless of all that, let's see if this front office and ownership understands the concept of "sunk cost"... That's what Jones should become. Learn from it and don't repeat the mistake again.
Major intelligence tests coming up for this team.
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and Schoen trades down, bypasses a top QB prospect, and picks one in a mid-round. Right now, I fully expect it to happen.
I believe it would criminal not to take a QB if we draft high because even if Jones keeps the Job and plays lights out, you will get a HAUL in trade by waiting and either trading the rookie or Jones to a team in need.
However, if they do draft a QB early can we drop the Mara intrigue. They did not pick up year 5. That does say something, no?
I know there was meddling, not saying it was made up. It appears like Schoen has autonomy to me, April will be telling.
You can never stop the Mara intrigue, you can only hope to contain it.
If Giants pick a quarterback in April, Maranoia will disappear….for a moment, but the minute a decision by Schoen is made that does not fit the narrative of what we fans think is best for the team, it will resurface, be assured of that
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a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
Giving Jones any significant guarantee was an error. And it is not just hindsight. As Terps has very astutely pointed out, you had a Vikings-Eagles sequence that should have preached caution. AGAIN! Just like with Pat Shurmur, the Vikes win was fools gold and the Eagles loss was a better barometer of where we were. You cannot make this up... It's just error compounding error with this team, and that's what concerns me.
But I don't think it's hyperbole to say this offseason is going to tell us A LOT about our team:
1. Is our GM willing to admit a mistake and cut bait so quickly on the "franchise" QB? One kernel of hope is the way the contract was structured, but as Sean and others have observed, it's a TON of dead cap space.
2. Even if our GM is willing to make such a concession, will ownership let him?
3. What do we do with Barkley? I've always been a fan of his, but it's clear he's a luxury we cannot afford, and as noted above if we had not been so obsessed with locking down Jones and Barkley, it would've been much easier to hedge on Jones again with the FT. Or, at least let him test the f'ing market to establish he was worth $40M.
4. I think the decision will really hinge on where we are picking--if we're top 5, you HAVE to pick the QB. Show the courage we showed when we cut bait from Kerry Collins in '04, and take your true franchise QB and build around him.
I'm not saying anything you all aren't saying; but to me, this is really the way it breaks down.
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I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I'll be in honest in saying the Giants have interested me less and less each day since hiring DG and drafting Jones, etc.
It's partially because of those inflection point poor decisions and countless poor decisions since then ... also my son being born, my career getting to stupid mega busy levels all contributing to my dwindled free time for football. But, ever since they drafted Jones my interest has really dwindled, and they haven't proven me wrong yet on the path(s) they've chosen. I'm not dumping them, but they desperately need to fix their house, stat.
I hear ya, I have the least amount of interest in the team when they play each week than I ever have in my fandom. I don't get stating 'I may be done as a fan if...' to other fans on a forum. It just seems dramatic to me.
More exaggerated bullshit from you. He was the 6th ranked QB last year (QBR). There is nothing "poor quality" about that.
His rookie year he had 26 total TD's (2 rushing) 3,300 total yards (3,020 passing and 280 rushing) in 12 games. TO's were certainly a problem, but the other stats aren't "poor quality".
2020 and 2021 were terrible, but then again EVERYTHING was of "poor quality", from the HC/OC/DC all the way down
But we all know how you like to make shit up to support your narrative...
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
I will puke x100000 if this happened.
Bunch of unintelligent losers if this occurs. The Giants deserve what they get if that's what happens, empty stadiums and all.
I might be out.
+ a lot, and I know owners in the same mental boat.
If you look at this from their perspective drafting Drake Maye would be a quick and decisive admission of an error. It would not be characteristic of how the Giants operate.
Well, time for the Giants to grow up and grow a set. Better late than never.
We're a forgiving bunch so long as the right, logical moves are made. Ownership can take their PR and optics, and owner father-player son relationship stuff and shove it up their ass. This is about football and winning games. If the wrong move is made on this one I think it gets nuclear against this team in a way they won't be able to anticipate or combat with 30 Pat Hanlons in his prime.
So the only evaluation you could ever have of Jones just slides between "he's good" and "he's really good?"
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to say that is a minority opinion anywhere in the football world is an understatement.
I'm done if this happens. Let's not manifest this at all.
I don't think it's fans writing to Mara like kids writing letters to Santa (although there are some fans from whom I might not doubt it), but I do think they pay close attention to social media, particularly X and probably some FB groups, and definitely here, the comments on the beat articles, etc. And I would be at least mildly surprised if they're not doing some actual digital sentiment tracking beyond just what they read for themselves.
What would worry me about that is that I think all people fall into the same trap with this sort of thing (amplified by orders of magnitude online), where they just see the side they inherently agree with as the prominent voice and the side they disagree with as the trolls. And then it's made worse by the internet itself tending to feed you more of what you told it you agree with.
For me at least, I don't believe most people are typically capable of being truly impartial and unbiased with anything that matters to them. So I personally have concerns with the Giants seemingly consistent history of seeking out fan approval for the outcome they want before it happens, or immediately tuning in to fan reaction when a major and unexpected event occurs (like the Eli benching or now DJ's season-ending injury and likely top draft pick). And even though I recognize the tin-hat nature of pointing much of that concern at Mara, I'm also unable to otherwise explain how the same behavior seems to have lingered through three GMs and five HCs.
On the broader Giants fandom front, the empty seats in upcoming home games I think will cause another spasm of stupid public actions by the Maras. I hope Daboll just stays calm and stoic through all of this. I have no confidence that John Mara will behave with steadiness.
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I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I think you might be underestimating the level of angst and frustration some fans have about the length of the scholarships offered for certain players at ol' Mara Tech.
Passing on a QB prospect isn't a statement that is confined to the draft, at least not at the slot that the Giants are careening toward this year. It's also an endorsement of Daniel Jones, particularly if the Giants are sitting in one of the top two spots in the draft and have nothing but the podium standing between them and either Caleb Williams or Drake Maye.
I just think some fans have grown fatigued with this team and the perennial failure. They've lost confidence in some combination of DJ's health and/or ability. They remain unsure about the braintrust, with one good year and one awful year. They still have PTSD from the previous regimes both doubling down on broken rosters and compounding their own misevaluations by clogging up the salary cap to pursue a "window" that wasn't really there, because they bought into their own press clippings (that they engineer for themselves in the first place).
Some fans are just tired of it. Things haven't tended to go well for the Giants when they bet on themselves lately. And passing on the top QBs in this upcoming draft in favor of trying once more to prop DJ up for a sixth time might signal for some that it's time to stop caring quite as much. All it does is cause frustration and disappointment.
Excellent post. +1
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
On the broader Giants fandom front, the empty seats in upcoming home games I think will cause another spasm of stupid public actions by the Maras. I hope Daboll just stays calm and stoic through all of this. I have no confidence that John Mara will behave with steadiness.
Hi Cosmic, actually I was not responding to yours. You make a good point; if something is not giving you some sort of positivity then why do it? It's just really hard to just walk away from a team cold turkey. I am not saying fans don't do it, I think they are the extreme minority. Being a fan of a team is kind of like an addiction like you pointed out; a lot of people struggle to quit something even if it is bad for them.
With the Giants, I try to reset expectations and remember that it is only football. I don't think I need to walk away from the Giants, I think I need to do a better job of understanding why I get so worked up about a team.
So the only evaluation you could ever have of Jones just slides between "he's good" and "he's really good?"
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to say that is a minority opinion anywhere in the football world is an understatement.
A certain segment of Giants fan has always operated under the belief that his best games are the “real” Jones and the other ones aren’t his fault because of a variety of factors that are out of his control.
It couldn’t be that his best games are almost exclusively against awful defensive teams. It couldn’t be that he’s fairly easy to gameplan against. It couldn’t be that he doesn’t process quickly when things don’t look the way they are supposed to post-snap. It couldn’t be that he doesn’t throw with anticipation.
All that said, I’m absolutely prepared for the possibility that the powers-that-be in the Giants organization believe the same as that segment of fans.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
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I highly doubt anyone is going to be 'out' as a fan if the Giants pass on a top qb prospect. That is just being dramatic to be dramatic.
I've been watching this team for 40 years. If this FO quadruples down on Jones this offseason, I'm done. I'll go root for the Lions or something.
If that scenario happens and you follow through with that, I have to give you credit. If you don't follow through, then it is understandable.
Giving Jones any significant guarantee was an error. And it is not just hindsight. As Terps has very astutely pointed out, you had a Vikings-Eagles sequence that should have preached caution. AGAIN! Just like with Pat Shurmur, the Vikes win was fools gold and the Eagles loss was a better barometer of where we were. You cannot make this up... It's just error compounding error with this team, and that's what concerns me.
But I don't think it's hyperbole to say this offseason is going to tell us A LOT about our team:
1. Is our GM willing to admit a mistake and cut bait so quickly on the "franchise" QB? One kernel of hope is the way the contract was structured, but as Sean and others have observed, it's a TON of dead cap space.
2. Even if our GM is willing to make such a concession, will ownership let him?
3. What do we do with Barkley? I've always been a fan of his, but it's clear he's a luxury we cannot afford, and as noted above if we had not been so obsessed with locking down Jones and Barkley, it would've been much easier to hedge on Jones again with the FT. Or, at least let him test the f'ing market to establish he was worth $40M.
4. I think the decision will really hinge on where we are picking--if we're top 5, you HAVE to pick the QB. Show the courage we showed when we cut bait from Kerry Collins in '04, and take your true franchise QB and build around him.
I'm not saying anything you all aren't saying; but to me, this is really the way it breaks down.
Yup.
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Personally I think his poor quality of play should end his career with the Giants, but they clearly interpreted things differently and saw fit to reward him with a renewed commitment.
More exaggerated bullshit from you. He was the 6th ranked QB last year (QBR). There is nothing "poor quality" about that.
His rookie year he had 26 total TD's (2 rushing) 3,300 total yards (3,020 passing and 280 rushing) in 12 games. TO's were certainly a problem, but the other stats aren't "poor quality".
2020 and 2021 were terrible, but then again EVERYTHING was of "poor quality", from the HC/OC/DC all the way down
But we all know how you like to make shit up to support your narrative...
So your view is that we have to keep examining history to determine what we have in Daniel Jones? And we should continue to see what happens because sometimes he looks good and when he is bad you can share the blame?
Put aside your poster-vengences and give us your logical course of action hotshot.
I was once the fan who went to lots of games, spent lots of money on Giants products, and never missed a moment of the games whether live or on TV.
Despite two one off playoff appearances, the Giants have the worst record I believe over the last 10+ seasons.
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
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An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation.
As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April.
Very realistic scenario:
- Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams
- Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel
- Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved
I will puke x100000 if this happened.
Bunch of unintelligent losers if this occurs. The Giants deserve what they get if that's what happens, empty stadiums and all.
Get the sickness bags ready because it is a real possibility that Jones gets the Mulligan.
I've never seen a more mediocre player create so much confusion for an organization even after five years.
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Great lets hang a banner for the road playoff win. They also got embarassed in the Divisional round.
The Giants are 60-102 the last 10 years. They have become an abysmal franchise.
Can we stop with this nonsense that the Giants have been irrelevant every year for 10 years?
Did last year not happen?
Of course the year happened. They did win a road playoff game. But they were not a very good team. Sometimes two middling teams play each other in the playoffs and one of them wins. The Vikings, despite their record, scored fewer points than they gave up. They were an anomaly.
The Giants finished the regular season on a 1-7 free fall. The week after their road playoff win, they were steam rolled by a team whose roster was leaps and bounds better. This was not an epic battle of good teams. It was two flawed teams in a top-heavy conference. This has been borne out by how both teams crashed back to earth in 2023.
The Giants had a good year in 2022 with a rebuilding roster. Many of the players on that roster are not good enough to build around, including the QB.
Did last year not happen?
It did. And in the context of the surrounding seasons, we call that an abberation
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
Bingo!
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Did last year not happen?
It did. And in the context of the surrounding seasons, we call that an abberation
When you have access to a deep set of data, but select a small subset of that data to drive your assessment of the entire data set, it is called confirmation bias.
There are a lot of people on here who look to small data sets and outlier games to draw broad conclusions that don't consider the full data set at all.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
I was once the fan who went to lots of games, spent lots of money on Giants products, and never missed a moment of the games whether live or on TV.
Despite two one off playoff appearances, the Giants have the worst record I believe over the last 10+ seasons.
Just ask the Knicks if a long stretch of irrelevance can shrink a fanbase.
Is this in response to my comments about fans saying they will or may quit on the Giants?
Against the 2022 Vikings he completed 72% of his passes for 382 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs.
DANIEL Jones aside, not very good QBs can and did have very good games against the Vikings defense.
Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
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In comment 16292446 UberAlias said:
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a couple games. I know many don't see that as even a possibility, but it absolutely could happen if we get some early momentum against the right team (Commanders, GB, NE). And Philly will tank it on us too if they have nothing to play for. As frustrating as this conversation is, I pray we're still having it when the season is over because that means we have a (top 2 - 3) pick worth the discussion.
The Giants need a QB. That doesn't change if they pick 3rd, so it still does matter. Jayden Daniels is very interesting. Sy has included him in the top tier thus far.
It matters at some point for sure. Picking a QB for the sake of picking a QB is exactly how we found ourselves in this mess to begin with and needs to be avoided at all costs. Worse that sticking with Jones is doubling down by reaching on a future QB bust.
Busting on a QB pick isn't that damaging since the CBA to introduce the rookie wage scale. Take Bryce Young as an example. Young's dead cap money in year three is a little over $22M...that is about as much as what everyone is considering an "out" in Jones's contract in '25. You can move on pretty fast from even the first pick overall.
The danger is in doing exactly what the Giants have done... self-imposed QB hell.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
What happens next will tell the tale of Schoen. Anybody can make a mistake, make a bad eval, get pressured by ownership into a bad move. But given all the data Schoen must add a top QB this offseason. A replacement for Jones. If he doesn't. Forget him. He's not up to the job.
As I think about this more, you are right - Schoen signing Jones to $160M ($81M guaranteed) attached himself to this QB. He can't have it both ways. Schoen had other options to bring back Jones which were much more cost effective and he should have sold that to Mara.
I like Schoen, but I can't give him credit for the good stuff and blame Mara for the bad stuff. That's not fair. Schoen sold Mara on eating all that money to trade Leonard Williams, he should have done the same with Jones if he didn't believe in the contract. Otherwise, I have to assume that Schoen was completely all in on $160M.
All good. We're all making our best guesses based on the public info we have.
Along with a little reading between the lines... ;)
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Mara has loved him since Gettleman was fawning over him at one Senior Bowl practice. And now Schoen looks galactically stupid for the contract.
How anyone can have a scintilla of trust with Schoen moving forward baffles me.
Let’s not forget who attended Jones’ Pro Day while Gettleman and Shurmur were at the owners meetings.
Chris Mara. Chris Pettit.
Is that true? I do not recall reading it, if so, WOOF.