Talkin Giants discussion about Mara/Schoen/Jones

In comment 16292647 jinkies said:

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In comment 16292644 Thegratefulhead said: Quote: What is that? For me, at the stadium, belligerent and drunk fans can ruin the experience for others. Bad fan. On BBI It is people who are more concerned with their opinion than the well being of the Giants. Someone who says the Giants will never win anything with Jones and that the general manager definitely doesn't want them because they don't pick his 5th year. That is perfectly fine and we just disagree. Then Jones wins 9 games with a terrible team and wins a playoff game playing historically well. THE FAN THAT DISAPPEARS FOR THE GOOD TIMES BECAUSE IT DIDNT CONFIRM HIS NARASTIVE ONLY TO RETURN WHEN THE DUMPSTER FIRE STARTS IN ORDER TO GLOAT. That, is a very, very, very small amount of BBI and the only kind of people I consider bad fans. I can politely disagree decades. Not a fan of trolls. Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. A simplified game plan and bad opponents led to some good fortune last season, and masked his deficiencies. I am happy for you that you enjoyed it, but his 2023 performance shows what he is.

Not nearly as bad as you think he is, pretty certain Schoen and Dabol and Eli, agree with me on that take

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People come and go from this community for all kinds of reasons. The fan value judgement thing has always struck me as very weird. Who cares why someone came and went? Stick to debating football in good faith, and you'd be surprised how easy it is.

I've made great friends over the years with people on this site with whom I've vehemently disagreed.

Unsolicited advice to anyone who cares why someone took a break -- get over yourself.

GD, well you’d be very surprised to know that I’m about to have our first child in 2 weeks. Is that considered a priority?

Just fuck off man. Seriously.!

I’ve made the decision to feel confident in the moves that Schoen and Daboll make and I also realize that John Mara owns the fucking team. I also realize that Mara isn’t some Oz behind the curtain who is really pulling the strings. Does he have input? Yeah, of course he does. He’s the fucking owner. Go root for another team if you think Mara is some moron. All you guys were saying great job John when he hired Schoen and Daboll and the entire team looked rejuvenated.

We’ve had a shitty follow up year in year 2 of this regime. Not gonna sit here and cry about it on a daily basis because everyone is injured and playing poorly.

Nobody believes you have friends, Christian.

Congrats, Ryan. Good news.

In comment 16292727 ryanmkeane said:

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GD, well you’d be very surprised to know that I’m about to have our first child in 2 weeks. Is that considered a priority? Just fuck off man. Seriously.!

Can’t imagine how cranky you’re going to be when you haven’t slept for a month. You’re also about to find out how easy it is to find something else to occupy your time every Sunday.

In comment 16292734 BrettNYG10 said:

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Nobody believes you have friends, Christian.

Fair. But once years ago I got morning drunk with Lono. That was friend-ish.

In comment 16292715 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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Those are your words not mine. I ve seen enough good to like him as a quarterback

In comment 16292727 ryanmkeane said:

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GD, well you’d be very surprised to know that I’m about to have our first child in 2 weeks. Is that considered a priority? Just fuck off man. Seriously.!

You make your own priorities. So does everyone else. That's the point.

Are you being intentionally obtuse or do you really not understand the point?

It's clear AF to me that Jones' performance last season-which was never All Pro to begin with-was a product of good game planning & him putting up some insane #s vs. bad defenses-Colts, Vikes, etc. that we faced.

He sucked this season even before he got injured. That's just a fact.

We'd be insane IMO-considering his overall play & injury history-to pass on a QB next spring if we're in position to draft one high.

If we go into next season rewinding it back with Jones & again hoping if we add something here or there, it'll click...we're idiots.

In comment 16292742 joeinpa said:

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In comment 16292715 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: . Those are your words not mine. I ve seen enough good to like him as a quarterback

I find that to be unusual because there isn't a lot of good to have seen. I think the standard has been so low over the past 8 years that viewer's calibrations are off.

In comment 16292747 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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It's clear AF to me that Jones' performance last season-which was never All Pro to begin with-was a product of good game planning & him putting up some insane #s vs. bad defenses-Colts, Vikes, etc. that we faced. He sucked this season even before he got injured. That's just a fact. We'd be insane IMO-considering his overall play & injury history-to pass on a QB next spring if we're in position to draft one high. If we go into next season rewinding it back with Jones & again hoping if we add something here or there, it'll click...we're idiots.

The Giants might not have closed the door on Jones, but they will not ignore that this position just because of the health history of both quarterbacks on the roster is an area of need

The only question to be determined is where will they draft and will the value be there at that position

In comment 16292727 ryanmkeane said:

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GD, well you’d be very surprised to know that I’m about to have our first child in 2 weeks. Is that considered a priority? Just fuck off man. Seriously.!

Congrats to you and the Mrs., seriously.

That said, I'll laugh at how annoyed you'll be if your kid is born on my birthday. Sounds like it might be in play.

In comment 16292647 jinkies said:

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Jones is a bad QB. Always has been.

Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised.

There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season.

And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org.

But go on with your narrative, without the facts...

In comment 16292788 speedywheels said:

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In comment 16292647 jinkies said: Quote: Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised. There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season. And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org. But go on with your narrative, without the facts...

I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.

In comment 16292789 jinkies said:

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I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.

Go easy on speedywheels. Like Schoen, speedy hitched his wagon to Jones and now he's in a tailspin.

In comment 16292789 jinkies said:

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In comment 16292788 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 16292647 jinkies said: Quote: Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised. There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season. And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org. But go on with your narrative, without the facts... I said he had good fortune in 2022, in the quote you cherry-picked. Bad QBs have good games and can have ostensibly good seasons. There is a lot to suggest that Jones' 2022 was unsustainable. Very low Y/A. It means he couldn't throw downfield. His success was based usually on a one read and run passing scheme. Jones never demonstrated in his career that he could function in a multiple read, downfield passing attack. Never. Many observers assumed he could after last season. Well 2023 shows he can't. He's limited.

Herbert had the same Y/A that Jones did and he did that with somewhere in the neighborhood of 4400-4600 yards. Couple other heavy weights were close, within a few tenths.

In comment 16292268 Thegratefulhead said:

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In comment 16292250 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 16292242 BillKo said: Quote: In comment 16292226 Go Terps said: Quote: An ACL is not a career ender for a 26 year old. From the Giants' perspective drafting a top QB creates a messy situation. As we all have heard a million times Daniel Jones is a hard worker. I'm sure he will be diligent about his rehab and he'll be back looking great in shorts as soon as possible. He has a lot of time between now and the end of April. Very realistic scenario: - Giants trade down a couple spots with a team willing to give up a ton to get Maye or Williams - Draft the PSU OT or FSU WR to help Daniel - Draft a QB later...but later on so Daniel feels safe and loved Safe and loved.....hehe. You should try your hand at fiction. Daniel Jones is a backup level player making $82M guaranteed. That is ridiculous enough to be fiction, but it isn't. Assholish and unnecessary. He took a team that was universally agreed at the start of 2022 season as one of the worst rosters in the NFL. After a week he had practice squad receiving talent. He lead the team to 9 wins, then he won a playoff game playing historically well. Not 1 game, not a small sample.

what's innately assholish about calling someone a backup caliber player? It's not much to clutch pearls over, it's not even an emotionally loaded statement.

The things I see your average social media sports fan post are so much more venomous and truly hateful.

In comment 16292383 jinkies said:

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Mike White 369 yards and Mac Jones 382 yards look like HOFers in addition to D Jones. It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league.

I'm of two minds here. That performance wasn't exactly nothing.

But it's a small sample size and professional sports history is replete with outstanding individual performances -- yes, even in the playoffs -- of a level the QB rarely otherwise exhibits.

In comment 16292788 speedywheels said:

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In comment 16292647 jinkies said: Quote: Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised. There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season. And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org. But go on with your narrative, without the facts...

What are we really arguing here? Terminology? You object to the idea that he's always been bad - fine. When was he good? When was he better than average?

we can safely remove Sanders from any future first round considerations.

In comment 16292840 santacruzom said:

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In comment 16292383 jinkies said: Quote: Mike White 369 yards and Mac Jones 382 yards look like HOFers in addition to D Jones. It's not a big deal that Jones shredded the worst pass defense in the league. I'm of two minds here. That performance wasn't exactly nothing. But it's a small sample size and professional sports history is replete with outstanding individual performances -- yes, even in the playoffs -- of a level the QB rarely otherwise exhibits.

Jones had a spectacular performance that day and it should be praised. It was a fantastic win.

But it needs to be viewed in conjunction with what happened the following weeks. Jones, even under Judge, had some great performances. But so do other average or less QBs.

In comment 16292788 speedywheels said:

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In comment 16292647 jinkies said: Quote: Jones is a bad QB. Always has been. Well, that's just a stupid take. But given your narrative, I'm not surprised. There is no way a rational person can conclude that Jones was "bad" in 2022. None. There is also no way a rational way anyone can conclude that Jones was "bad" in his rookie year. Period. Was there areas of improvement? For sure - the TO's were terrible. But considering he was a rookie, it was a good season. And let's not forget that his middle two years were "managed" by Judge and Garrett. The entire team was horrific, from the HC/OC (and DC) all way down the org. But go on with your narrative, without the facts...

But Jones is not the first bad QB to have an abnormally good year, and he won't be the last.

Anyone remember Josh Freeman?

Not hard to look at the current year and see what is coming. We will be in a position soon to draft one of the top 3 QBs, the top WR or the top ER (all needs and feel free to include RT and CB if you want). Every year the draft talent in the WR's group produces an outsized bunch of talent relative to the position. So it seems spending the hypothetical 3rd pick of this draft on MHJr would not be a smart utilization of resources. I say pass on the generational talent that MHJr will likely be. I would imagine that maybe 3 - 4 of the top WRs in the draft would be outsized impactful to our team if we drafted them later. I actually am in the camp that Hyatt will be an outsized talent to his draft position. Not with one or two throws to him a game but when we have a functional offense and the ability to protect the QB long enough for him to find Jalin. Feel good about Waller too by the way when he is back...but I am losing focus here. My theory is that not drafting a QB1 with top two or possibly top 3 slot would be professional malfeasance. Schoen will be looking at the "score" for those QBs and will be weighing that against other talent but you must consider the other QBs in this draft and the next one (don't discount what is coming in my judgement). If the top 2 - 3 guys are rated as exceptional, even if you think Jones has had a raw deal here, which he had, you must pick the most talented Qb available. And I am someone who is partial to DJ. I think he if 5x the QB Purdy is. Place Jones in the SF system and he is top 5 in the NFL. Literally put 15 guys in the same scenario and I see success for them.....Garappolo type success. 2 ways to build a team. One way is to fix everything on offense and then plug in a QB. Strong line, good RB group, TE's that can contribute, etc and then add the QB. Or choose the harder route in my view...Grab the dynamic, elusive QB with field vision...Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, maybe Josh Allen, and to a smaller extent Herbert, Burrow, et al. They are talented guys and if everything else was in place they would blitz the field. I still believe in the paradigm that the QB has the most impact on team success. But after 20 yrs...even Aaron Rodgers has just one SB victory. I am willing to build a team from the QB up. Because I think the data suggests it is the best and most logical path to a single championship. And I want that for the NYG fanbase. But if we are having a conversation about how best to build sustainable 20 yr success....build everything else first.

We’re taken in the third round or later