*DeVito was sacked nine times for losses totaling 45 yards. This is the first victory in Giants history in a game when their quarterback(s) was sacked at least nine times.
But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Like what can the Jones' apologist say now. How can you defend Jones after today
Why is anyone bringing up Jones in the first place? They played a horrendous defensive team (the worst they’ve faced all season) and won the completely meaningless game. Congrats to Devito, but WGAF?
Ad hominem attacks don't erase the following, TDs per year for Jones:
2019: 24
2020: 11
2021: 10
2022: 15
2023: 2
He's not productive.
And they’re highly likely to draft his replacement this offseason as long as they don’t mess it up with more pointless victories. So what’s your point?
But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Just another brainless post here.
A shit team played at their worst. The fans here sound like the Jets fans who were screamong for Mike White to QB the team. A QB who was cut 6 times. Lets see what he does against a very bad team who has game film on him and belicheck
Like what can the Jones' apologist say now. How can you defend Jones after today
Why is anyone bringing up Jones in the first place? They played a horrendous defensive team (the worst they’ve faced all season) and won the completely meaningless game. Congrats to Devito, but WGAF?
Maybe because we paid him $160M, $90M guaranteed, and he's been outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
There's every reason to believe that DeVito, given the opportunities Jones has been given these five years, would have performed as well or better than Jones.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
There's every reason to believe that DeVito, given the opportunities Jones has been given these five years, would have performed as well or better than Jones.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
This is the problem, as others have pointed out. It's not that DeVito and Taylor are "good." But there is no discernible difference between them and Jones.
And worse for Jones, DeVito already has 3 times the TD passes.
It's relevant to bring up because DeVito did something today that Jones hasn't been able to do in four years. You get that, right?
Is this the only bad defense the Giants have played in four years?
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Jones era is over. Let’s move on.
Have some perspective. The Minnesota game was a nice moment for Jones against an atrocious opponent.
But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Just another brainless post here.
Your repetitive posts prove that you know jack about football.
Oh cmon. He had a chance to throw 3/4 TDs in games. He threw 2 in 6 games. At some point you have to believe the performance.
So we aren’t allowed to conjure up DJ’s career numbers against Washington but we’re fine with people extrapolation today’s performance to conclude that the two qbs are near equals. Cool.
I guess we’re supposed to just buy in that jones will never play better again. That’s the prevailing notion around here. Am I allowed to disagree? Don’t want to rock the apple cart…
Ps I still want to draft a qb if he’s available so save it.
RE: RE: RE: I hope one day the Giants can win 13 games
with that said Danny Jones was in a shit situation this year and I do think we have not heard the last of him in the NFL. He might not be a Giant but I do think he has talent and will resurface as a starting QB elsewhere.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
I'd like to see the media ask some tough questions to Schoen in 2 weeks about this. They won't get off the hook easy, the $47M cap hit next year and $22M dead cap charge in 2025 is going to eat into that rookie QB contract window and be a very tough pill to swallow.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I hope one day the Giants can win 13 games
There's every reason to believe that DeVito, given the opportunities Jones has been given these five years, would have performed as well or better than Jones.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
They made a two year deal which was clearly a “We like you, but we don’t love you” contract. It didn’t work out. They have a chance (as long as they don’t fuck it up) to get Caleb, Drake, or Daniels in this draft. They didn’t exactly hitch the wagon to Jones.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
this sanctimonious jerkoff. Go back to your rathole.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
It's no coincidence he was MIA last year. He's a miserable POS who likes to complain, and hates whenever they have success. Especially when it's someone who leads them that he doesn't like.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
He's also the asshole who preaches to draft a QB every year, but preemptively bashes Schoen for even thinking about drafting a QB this year, because that would be "giving up" on Jones after 5 games into his contract.
But of course, he ignores Philly drafting Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract.
He's all about himself. Always has been. He's been wrong many more times he's right. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating. He's a fucking caricature at this point.
Fact of the matter is that the Giants need to find a QB with a higher
ceiling than what Jones, Devito or Taylor can give us. Whether Jones is slightly better than DeVito or not, it’s time this team gets aggressive to find their guy. The position is just far too important
But Jones can't even make the throw that Devito did on the first Barkley TD.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
i can see the OL getting better with Glowinski back at RG
But Jones can't even make the throw that Devito did on the first Barkley TD.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
Maybe he did once but I'd have to go back and see when. I don't remember any similar TD passes like that. Regardless of that everything else is totally on point. This game shows you that you can still be successful getting pummeled.
But Jones can't even make the throw that Devito did on the first Barkley TD.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
Everything you say prior to the final three sentences is accurate. WGAF what Tommy Devito did against the worst defense the Giants have faced in 2023? And what on earth is the connection to Daniel Jones’ situation or performance? There is none.
made some incredible throws as a rookie. He even threw for five TDs in one game (Redskins). But that was a long time ago.
We heard that Judge constantly yelled at him to not take chances. Perhaps that scarred him. Maybe he's been hit too much. Maybe he just has problems reading defenses.
But look at his TD totals since 2019.
Again, DeVito didn't get drafted. Jones was the 6th pick in the draft. Jones got the snaps in camp and practice, followed by Taylor. DeVito got a handful.
Jones has played a bunch of shit defenses in the past four years, teams with the 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, and 32nd ranked defenses.
I'm not saying DeVito is an NFL starter. But he just did something that Jones hasn't been able to do. And in a game where he got sacked nine times.
It's relevant to bring up because DeVito did something today that Jones hasn't been able to do in four years. You get that, right?
Is this the only bad defense the Giants have played in four years?
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Jones era is over. Let’s move on.
So Jones performing against a bad defense doesn’t matter but you use it to knock DeVito down a peg?
Tyrod Taylor is not under contract next year. The two quarterbacks under contract are Jones and DeVito.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
Tyrod Taylor is not under contract next year. The two quarterbacks under contract are Jones and DeVito.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
DeVito signed a one-year contract.
RE: Kudos to Tommy D he played a very good game today
with that said Danny Jones was in a shit situation this year and I do think we have not heard the last of him in the NFL. He might not be a Giant but I do think he has talent and will resurface as a starting QB elsewhere.
DeVito and Tyrod played in the same shit situation as Jones. He was outplayed by both.
But he just did something that Jones hasn't been able to do. And in a game where he got sacked nine times.
This is kinda a weak thread, but I almost expected it.
DeVito all has more TD throws than DJ, and has played less games.
I like both guys - I campaigned for DJ but it's time to change. I also posted numerous times how much DeVito impressed me in training camp. I think he could be serviceable as a #2.
But I think we can go to a lot of places in what DJ has accomplished that DeVito most likely never achieves.
Tyrod Taylor is not under contract next year. The two quarterbacks under contract are Jones and DeVito.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
Jones deal is anything but reasonable. It’s a ticking time bomb contract. Was the day it was signed despite what some tried to pontificate. It’s even worse now not due to any ones fault due to injury again but it is what it is, and presents a conundrum in a year where there has to be either a parting of ways or Jones has to sign a team friendly deal or Giants pay out more guaranteed money to ease up the cap hit.
Jones is ridiculously expensive and not very productive.
Tyrod Taylor is not under contract next year. The two quarterbacks under contract are Jones and DeVito.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
DeVito signed a one-year contract.
That's true, but he's an exclusive rights free agent and the Giants retain his rights for the league minimum.
The cap sites have him under contract on 2024. Which might presume he's accepted those terms for next year?
Jones deal is anything but reasonable. It’s a ticking time bomb contract. Was the day it was signed despite what some tried to pontificate. It’s even worse now not due to any ones fault due to injury again but it is what it is, and presents a conundrum in a year where there has to be either a parting of ways or Jones has to sign a team friendly deal or Giants pay out more guaranteed money to ease up the cap hit.
Jones is ridiculously expensive and not very productive.
I don't think a big part of the bolded entry makes much sense.
Never-the-less, my point is the best case scenario for the Giants brass is for Jones to turn it around be a good player. If here were to do so, he would be on a reasonable contract.
I think you're missing the part that I don't think that will happen.
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
They made a two year deal which was clearly a “We like you, but we don’t love you” contract. It didn’t work out. They have a chance (as long as they don’t fuck it up) to get Caleb, Drake, or Daniels in this draft. They didn’t exactly hitch the wagon to Jones.
Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
What's funny is DeVito's college passing stats are slightly better than Jones's. DeVito was a four star recruit coming out of high school. Jones zero star. DeVito was an undrafted free agent. Jones was drafted sixth overall.
If this situation were happening on another team we'd all be laughing our asses off at such a stupid handling of the QB position.
comparison. Devito did something today that Jones has never been able to do--he protected his body when sacked. Jones is horrendous at feeling the pressure and it leads to tons of fumbles and injuries. Devito showed a lot more feel than Jones ever has when it comes to sensing pressure.
Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
Jones has the 15th highest guaranteed money among current quarterback deals in that new contract.
Are you honestly arguing they gave him a good contract?
Lol.. he also has the 15th highest guaranteed money all time in the NFL. Tommy DeVito is outplaying him. Talk about egg on the face of the front office.
Even if Jones were the 15th best QB in the league (he isn't), why would you want to give a contract to the 15th best QB in the league?
You think the difference between the 15th best and 40th best is that big? It isn't. We're seeing there's little of any difference between Jones, Taylor, and DeVito.
speedy, jvm, shockey, and the rest of you boys following me around... Daniel Jones = Tommy DeVito = Malik Willis = Nick Mullens, and so on. The only difference is the contract.
You wanted this shit sandwich after the Viking game, and you got it. Now we're all eating it.
Even if Jones were the 15th best QB in the league (he isn't), why would you want to give a contract to the 15th best QB in the league?
You think the difference between the 15th best and 40th best is that big? It isn't. We're seeing there's little of any difference between Jones, Taylor, and DeVito.
speedy, jvm, shockey, and the rest of you boys following me around... Daniel Jones = Tommy DeVito = Malik Willis = Nick Mullens, and so on. The only difference is the contract.
You wanted this shit sandwich after the Viking game, and you got it. Now we're all eating it.
Malik Willis isn’t even in the same class as the other names you listed and you would have spent the 7th overall pick on him if not the 5th.
If Barkley does not have a massive game, this 3 TD game does not happen at all. Barkley is clearly the catalyst that makes the Giants offense barely functional. DeVito had nothing to lose and could afford to run around and sling the ball around. There was no drawback for him in doing so. Maybe the Giants have a backup QB.
People need to get over the Jones contract. He earned his mediocre contract by showing promise for 3 years and then playing well enough to drag a shitty team into the playoffs last season. The Giants were not wrong about Jones, they were wrong about the players surrounding him. The organization ruined Jones just like they ruined a two time SB MVP entering the prime of his career.
The Jones Era is over. The Giants will move on and draft another QB and unless the Giants fix the OL, he will fail as well. The Giants need to look at Philly and Dallas who have decent QB's sitting behind functional offensive lines. Until the Giants fix the OL, it does not matter who is the QB.
Last year while the Giants went 7-2, Saquon had 919 yds 6 TDs and a 2 pt conversion that literally won a game and we often direct snapped to him. The Giants had a 4Q comeback where they didn’t complete a pass but yeah but yeah Jones “dragged” the team into the playoffs
is really out of control at this point. He was good last season. So much so that people alot smarter about football than you or I gave him a contract. Lucky for you and most of the other Jones detractors, that money was ill spent because the franchise can't field an OL.
The same things that doomed Eli, are the same things that ensured the Jones could never succeed.
The Giants are people “much smarter than me about football “ and i presume anyone who is in “denial” on Jones but in regards to every other position on the team they are “wrong” and “ruined” Jones and Eli careers dating back near a decade I presume.
He had 5 of his 1+ TD games in 2019 so just 6 games of 2+ games since
That disregards his running TD’s. A TD is a TD. Absolutely we need to improve at QB, and while DeVito performed admirably for a rookie UDFA he is not a long term solution as a starter.
Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Stretch since Dec 2019 and it was because of the 5 TDs vs Washington
And people have been saying we wouldn’t let DeVito throw the ball!
And since people love to point out how was this year’s WAS defense is, here’s a reminder that in 2019 they were so banged up at that point and publicly feuding with Josh Norman so they were signing guys off the street to play the Giants. Jones’s rookie season was based largely on 4 games against horrible defenses.
Bucs, Lions, Jets, Redskins- 17 TDs (15 pass, 2 run), 4 TOs
Other 8 starts: 9 TDs, 19 TOs.
Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
You're right. We need to be consistent. Tommy DeVito needs a 5 year evaluation period as Ginats starting quarterback so we can see what we've got in him.
Terps - saying things like "Malik Willis is the same as Daniel Jones" is not only ridiculous on its face but it makes me think that you actually believe the nonsense you are saying.
Jones led a bad roster to the playoffs, won a road playoff game, until they were beat down by a superior team. He had a really rough start to this season because of a lot of factors, including his play.
There's a difference between someone like that, and then someone like Malik Willis, who not only is a complete bust and will never play or start in the NFL again, but literally does not play because he cannot throw the football, which is what you need to do in order to play quarterback.
WTF does Terps liking Willis have to do with Jones
Just like top shelf HBs are not paid like top QBs.
Offensive success today comes from air yardage. Rushing yardage is a very secondary success metric.
This argument rests on a view of an NFL that no longer exists.
It's funny, because rushing TD's are usually dismissed by Giant fans when it's referencing other QB's. I've seen people use this as a knock on Lamar Jackson. I'm sure BBI thinks nothing of Justin Fields. But in the context of Daniel Jones, it's always, "don't forget the rushing TD's!"
Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
You’re completely ignoring the point as usual. We’ve gotten the whole Daniel Jones experience in one season with three different quarterbacks. Struggling to score against good teams, and having breakout games against some of the worst defenses in the league.
If you can’t see how much of an indictment that is on the Jones contract, you can’t be helped.
ajr, and per usual, you used the Giants winning yesterday as a way to put down Jones, saying it was an indictment on him. You're a one trick pony, that's fine.
Looking forward to your reaction if the Giants don't take a quarterback in round 1.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
made some incredible throws as a rookie. He even threw for five TDs in one game (Redskins). But that was a long time ago.
We heard that Judge constantly yelled at him to not take chances. Perhaps that scarred him. Maybe he's been hit too much. Maybe he just has problems reading defenses.
But look at his TD totals since 2019.
Again, DeVito didn't get drafted. Jones was the 6th pick in the draft. Jones got the snaps in camp and practice, followed by Taylor. DeVito got a handful.
Jones has played a bunch of shit defenses in the past four years, teams with the 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, and 32nd ranked defenses.
I'm not saying DeVito is an NFL starter. But he just did something that Jones hasn't been able to do. And in a game where he got sacked nine times.
I think this sums the situation very well. The damage to DJ is cumulative; the mental stuff from multiple HC and OCs and the hits from all the sacks.
ajr, and per usual, you used the Giants winning yesterday as a way to put down Jones, saying it was an indictment on him. You're a one trick pony, that's fine.
Looking forward to your reaction if the Giants don't take a quarterback in round 1.
Because it is. It’s an indictment on all the excuses you have made for 5 years.
The only trick you have is being person on this wrong the most. It’s time to let your Daniel Jones lust go, you’ll be better off.
No he was just mediocre. 15 TD passes isn’t “starting to put it together”. DeVito is on pace for 17 TDS in only 8 starts. Is he starting to put it together?
Is that there isn't a big gap in play between Jones and Taylor/DeVito. Certainly not a $40M per year gap. So, this is why Jones gets brought up.
This is the case for staying financially lean at QB. And yes, Jones won a road playoff game. He earned that and it isn't nothing. But, it wasn't just him. Barkley was fantastic in the game as was the entire coaching staff.
But, the contract now is when you see the problems and the lack of talent gap. It's much better to stay financially lean at QB until you have someone playing the position that can win despite unfavorable factors on the roster. It needs to be perfect for Jones, that isn't worth what he's being paid.
It's s funny, because rushing TD's are usually dismissed by Giant fans when it's referencing other QB's. I've seen people use this as a knock on Lamar Jackson. I'm sure BBI thinks nothing of Justin Fields. But in the context of Daniel Jones, it's always, "don't forget the rushing TD's!"
I've posted this many times, but it's worth repeating.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
ajr, cool man. You and I aren't going to agree on anything related to football, probably ever. You don't need to respond to everything I say when it comes to Jones. You really aren't moving the conversation forward. You hijack every single thread with the same anti Jones stuff that GT does. We get it. You think he's bad.
Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
Should Devito go on scholarship now as well and get 5 years (and counting) like Jones got?
Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
Should Devito go on scholarship now as well and get 5 years (and counting) like Jones got?
The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
You keep posting this, and yet I've seen at least a half dozen posts explaining to you the circumstances.
It's s funny, because rushing TD's are usually dismissed by Giant fans when it's referencing other QB's. I've seen people use this as a knock on Lamar Jackson. I'm sure BBI thinks nothing of Justin Fields. But in the context of Daniel Jones, it's always, "don't forget the rushing TD's!"
I've posted this many times, but it's worth repeating.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
Mahomes is also used plenty from that Tampa superbowl as what happens to a QB with a bad/injured OL.
christian, yeah, you're right, i should just think of it as a coincidence that Terps disappeared for the entire 2022 season, and then returned just at the moment when the Giants 2023 season started going off the rails because of a bad Jones (I think he returned after the Seahawks game, go figure).
christian, yeah, you're right, i should just think of it as a coincidence that Terps disappeared for the entire 2022 season, and then returned just at the moment when the Giants 2023 season started going off the rails because of a bad Jones (I think he returned after the Seahawks game, go figure).
I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Yes you should because a number of posters have told you exactly what happened.
christian, yeah, you're right, i should just think of it as a coincidence that Terps disappeared for the entire 2022 season, and then returned just at the moment when the Giants 2023 season started going off the rails because of a bad Jones (I think he returned after the Seahawks game, go figure).
I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Yeah. That's right he didn't stick around. Forgot about that. I did.
ajr, cool man. You and I aren't going to agree on anything related to football, probably ever. You don't need to respond to everything I say when it comes to Jones. You really aren't moving the conversation forward. You hijack every single thread with the same anti Jones stuff that GT does. We get it. You think he's bad.
Hijack it? This thread was made about Jones lol.
Jesus man you’re such a loser it’s not even funny. You’re the one who brought my name up in a thread the other day unsolicited. The holidays are coming up would you like me to buy you a mirror?
RE: Not to worry, Jones will be back and be the Giants strating qb
but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
They count the same. But put me in the camp of the QB relying on his arm to score TDs than simply taking off and running for them because he is uncomfortable doing it with his head/arm. Less collisions too.
but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
The reason it matters is because the rushing stats just aren’t sustainable. Lamar Jackson is the extreme outlier and even Baltimore has been trying desperately to keep him in the pocket more. Jones is now physically compromised and we’ve seen games in the past where he was banged up and they had to adjust the game plan to keep him out of harms way. We also seen teams this season adjust to his running and took it away, forcing him to throw. The results were putrid.
Rushing TDs do in fact count as much as passing TDs. But it’s much more complicated than that. Having your QB rely on rushing the ball is not a sound long term plan. We’ve seen the results when the rushing isn’t there…
RE: RE: WTF does Terps liking Willis have to do with Jones
Answer: when you’re losing an argument, a good strategy is to wave your hands around and point to something totally irrelevant.
Actually I was responding to his post where he mentioned that Daniel Jones = Malik Willis.
So are you saying that he is the one posting irrelevant things? I'm confused.
In the least surprising manner possible, the point of the Malik Willis conversation went soaring over your empty head. The point was that teams are better off failing fast and pivoting while a QB is still cheap than to extend the pain and bet on hope, and pay full retail price for the privilege to do so.
If the Giants had Willis instead of Jones, they'd be in the exact same place on the field this year, and would be facing far less cap consequences to replace Willis with a new rookie QB. Willis is not as good as Jones, and no one has suggested that he is. The thing is, it doesn't matter that DJ is better than Willis, because neither is good enough. But at least Willis doesn't cost $40M AAV to be inadequate.
My only question is whether your obtuseness is intentional.
No one disputed Jones' ability to rush and score TDs
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
How come you continue to repeat that only 2023 is forming people’s opinions on wanting to cut bait on Jones? Do you actually thing people aren’t including 2020 and 2021 in their evaluations just because you don’t?
2020 and 2021 were miserable performances by the QB. He has a fairly decent 2022 and then quickly reverts back to form in 2023 (even though the regression was clear against good teams at the end of 2022) and the narrative is “why are you guys trying to jump ship so quick from one bad year?”
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
I absolutely admit to presuming Jones would continue his poor play in 2022 and the Giants would move on from him.
Looks like I missed it by a year. And now it's going to cost us a bundle in salary cap space.
I'll give my amateur take on Jones and why it's so hard to "quit" him
Jones looks the part... He's big, fast, accurate and throws a very nice ball. All of those traits, combined with the state of the OLine, make it difficult to discard him.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
Pretty rich coming from you after the victory lap(s) you took when Jones got that insane contract.
Don't pretend people weren't calling that a mistake in real time. It's not hindsight just because you ignored it while crowing about how you were right about the Giants paying him.
started six games this year. He did not throw a TD in five of those games.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
The one play I liked from DeVito was the 4th down where he avoided the sack and threw the ball away. Then, the Giants defense sacked what's his face QB on 3rd down. Giants then went up 14-3. I bet ya Jones takes a sack on that 4th down.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
If you go back to the thread that announced DJ's contract, you'll see all the same posters that you think are moving the goalposts were saying then, in real time, that they wished the Giants had tagged DJ instead. How is it moving the goalposts if those posters voiced concern at the time and now have had their concerns at least partially validated?
This is just another example of you desperately seeking an echo chamber for your own views and then pretending that the echoes were the only voices.
It doesn't matter if Jones is better than Willis, or Corral, or any of hundreds of other QBs. In the end, they're all in the same class: bad starting QBs you can't win a title with. They are people to whom you do NOT give a big contract.
Daniel Jones is a shitty NFL starting QB. If he's your QB, you need a QB. And yet he is now a very expensive player. He is a huge net negative in a way that Malik Willis (or any other backup you want to name) is not.
I believed in Jones, thought this was the year he'd take the step with a decent OL and some weapons. It didn't happen. Life's not fair. The fact that both Taylor and Devito look better then him is telling.
I firmly believe that his shot was if SHurmur stayed and was able to coach him up but I think Judge mindfucked him. He's just too conservative and wont take chances. He'll be here next year while he rehabs but the Giants need to take a QB.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
Plenty more saw the big picture.
One read, then run was not going to be enough.
In his head. It’s a foreign concept to him that people can want the Giants to win and enjoy the playoff win, while also having concerns that they needed an upgrade at QB.
- I don’t think any fan views Taylor or Devito as the answer. Buts it alarming that they have both performed significantly better than Jones this season. That’s a major indictment on Jones.
- how much of a sample size do you need from Jones? It baffles me how people can even attempt to defend him on here. He’s not a good quarterback.
- if Jones was healthy and UFA this offseason, does he a get a starting job? That answer is no.
- stop saying this was some great 2 year contract that doesn’t hurt. It’s a bad contract that will hurt this team badly for 3 seasons. It will also eat in to the advantages of having a rookie QB for his first 2 seasons if they draft one.
- Jones can’t play. I have no idea what else needs to happen to come to this conclusion. Admit the mistake and move on.
Sad state of affairs. Hard to believe the Jones we got this year
Jones looks the part... He's big, fast, accurate and throws a very nice ball. All of those traits, combined with the state of the OLine, make it difficult to discard him.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
I agree partly but what I think really amplifies the Jones disconnect is that he has a cluster of faults that all occur before the ball leaves his hand. Poor pocket movement, poor reading the field and a slow release. I don’t think he’s a particularly accurate passer but the lack of good results is really caused by a cluster of problems in the pocket.
If you’re just watching the ball, which is the natural default for a lot of fans (me included), you won’t see the problems.
We were told he would produce more as the offensive scheme opened up and became more vertical. His proponents were certain he improved enough to handle the job.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
We were told he would produce more as the offensive scheme opened up and became more vertical. His proponents were certain he improved enough to handle the job.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
You might have missed the game where we was pressured 39 times. But, maybe you watched that one.
RE: RE: I'll give my amateur take on Jones and why it's so hard to
Jones looks the part... He's big, fast, accurate and throws a very nice ball. All of those traits, combined with the state of the OLine, make it difficult to discard him.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
I agree partly but what I think really amplifies the Jones disconnect is that he has a cluster of faults that all occur before the ball leaves his hand. Poor pocket movement, poor reading the field and a slow release. I don’t think he’s a particularly accurate passer but the lack of good results is really caused by a cluster of problems in the pocket.
If you’re just watching the ball, which is the natural default for a lot of fans (me included), you won’t see the problems.
Excellent point. His rookie year, for example, we saw some really nice balls, especially deep ones and had reason for optimism. But, his issues seem to take place before the throws the ball, and in some cases before the ball is even snapped.
RE: RE: No one could have success with this situation
..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
They count the same. But put me in the camp of the QB relying on his arm to score TDs than simply taking off and running for them because he is uncomfortable doing it with his head/arm. Less collisions too.
That's fine if Jones was producing TDs at a decent rate. Even with his excellent rushing stats added to his passing totals, he is outside the top 10 of QBs in yards and TDs...and that is looking ONLY at passing stats for all other QBs. His rushing numbers last year made him a slightly above average QB when looking ONLY at passing numbers for all other QBs.
Kerry Collins first took over as Qb on a 5-4 Giants team
And lost his first two starts. The third start v the Jets was his first victory and the game Eric referenced.
I remember vividly the beginning of Collins’ Giants career. It was viscerally exciting. The team went from being a super conservative “ eke out the win” team to having a gunslinger at QB who had the arm to complete any pass. When he was on, the opposing D was on its back heel at all times.
That’s what even a flawed yet talented QB will do for your offense. Its worth recalling that 1999 season for Giants fans beaten down by a decade of losing and Jones’ black hole of QBing.
RE: RE: RE: No one could have success with this situation
..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
Maybe the Giant Defense played a bit more inspired to cause some turnovers knowing they had a QB on the field that was able to score a few TDs for a change.
We were told he would produce more as the offensive scheme opened up and became more vertical. His proponents were certain he improved enough to handle the job.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
You might have missed the game where we was pressured 39 times. But, maybe you watched that one.
Do you honestly still believe in Jones long term? You 100% want to stick with Daniel Jones and build around him as your starting quarterback? No doubts or worries at all???
Or are you just taking the opposite side of an argument? I'm perplexed by your continued defense of Jones.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
This, in a nutshell. Nobody would dispute the OL struggles, especially with the injuries mounting. But, all year, many here and analysts alike maintained the protection wasn't all bad or all responsible for the sacks and lack of production. Every week, there were many plays to be made and Jones wasn't making them. Then Taylor came in and the scoring was still poor, but he made some plays downfield and the offense started to seem semi-functional. That was written off.
DeVito's first couple of weeks were bad. But, the coaches also made it painfully obvious that they weren't letting him throw. People took the evidence of DeVito being sacked as, once again, the OL is THE problem, and that is that, with a minor of nobody to throw to. Now, DeVito is getting all the practice time as a starter and he's still taking sacks...but he's also making plays.
Nobody is mistaking DeVito for anything more than is, which is a nice story who might make a decent backup moving forward. But, his performance does put a spotlight on their QB play and offense overall. It doesn't look good for Jones.
What would really be interesting is what the Giants would do this offseason if Jones didn't have a gross guaranteed salary for 2024. Would they cut him, if they could?
.. there is pressure, or when the windows are tight. That's why we like DeVito's performance yesterday. Not that he's the answer. But he showed that a passing attack is possible in less than ideal circumstances. And he put up points.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
This isn't hard to understand Eric.
Terps has absolutely been more accurate in his assessment of this team than most, and certainly you. He left this site because one of the lead "I put my head in the sand and attack people who don't prey to Jones" guys is a moderator on this site who threatened to ban him because he was correct and the mod didn't want to hear it.
This site has a section of fans who are fairly smart, but are just too emotional about Jones to think clearly.
But stop with the "Terps went into hiding." This board started to become state sponsored media where only positive Jones news was allowed last year. A lot of us who had different opinions disappeared because of abhorrent moderator behavior.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
RE: RE: RE: RE: No one could have success with this situation
..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
Maybe the Giant Defense played a bit more inspired to cause some turnovers knowing they had a QB on the field that was able to score a few TDs for a change.
I mean we've all seen the Giants quit before in hopeless situations. There's always some truth in players playing more inspired when they smell a win vs knowing they don't have a chance.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
This isn't hard to understand Eric.
Terps has absolutely been more accurate in his assessment of this team than most, and certainly you. He left this site because one of the lead "I put my head in the sand and attack people who don't prey to Jones" guys is a moderator on this site who threatened to ban him because he was correct and the mod didn't want to hear it.
This site has a section of fans who are fairly smart, but are just too emotional about Jones to think clearly.
But stop with the "Terps went into hiding." This board started to become state sponsored media where only positive Jones news was allowed last year. A lot of us who had different opinions disappeared because of abhorrent moderator behavior.
Sometimes it's the delivery, not the message. There are plenty still here, myself included, who were critical of Jones, even throughout his best season last year, even after the playoff win, and throughout the offseason and contract process.
started six games this year. He did not throw a TD in five of those games.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
Like 75% of Jones career passing tds have come against some of the worst defenses in the league.
It's not like Jones hurt his shoulder or arm. He tore an ACL. He's going to be physically fine.
So if Jones was the answer last year and it was a good decision to sign him, there's no reason to lose faith in him, right?
That's something that I can't get past. We're seeing in Technicolor that NO ONE (even Ryan) really believed in Jones. If you believed in Jones coming into this season, surely five games wasn't going to be enough to change your mind that the Giants had their QB for the long term, right?
The fucking ink on the contract is still wet, and everyone wants to draft Drake Maye.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
Yes, and how many TDs did Jones have in similar garbage time? Nobody here is claiming DeVito is good or a savior or should compete for a job next year or should prevent us from drafting a QB.
There appears to be a good amount of blue chippers in this draft. I hope the Giants get one of them.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
The reason it matters is because the rushing stats just aren’t sustainable. Lamar Jackson is the extreme outlier and even Baltimore has been trying desperately to keep him in the pocket more. Jones is now physically compromised and we’ve seen games in the past where he was banged up and they had to adjust the game plan to keep him out of harms way. We also seen teams this season adjust to his running and took it away, forcing him to throw. The results were putrid.
Rushing TDs do in fact count as much as passing TDs. But it’s much more complicated than that. Having your QB rely on rushing the ball is not a sound long term plan. We’ve seen the results when the rushing isn’t there…
Oh I am in aggreance because its a passing league. But I just find this a little too arbitrary because I mean if Jones accounts for 4 TDs against the Eagles in the win - it probably means he had a really good game. I think a more meaningful stat is a total of 15 on the year. That has more credence IMO.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
What people??!?!?!?!! There’s like 1% of the fan base who still thinks he should be the starting quarterback going forward.
I don’t know what will satisfy you guys. Should we all get together and drive to Daniel Jones house and murder him? I just don’t want to read bullshit. Reading about Tommy Devito’s TD passes against the worst scoring defense in the NFL is bullshit. Reading that Daniel Jones and Malik Willis are the same guy is bullshit.
There appears to be a good amount of blue chippers in this draft. I hope the Giants get one of them.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
Looking forward to your reaction come draft time.
Are you honestly hoping the Giants don't take a QB so you can do some sort of victory lap while this team embarks on another 5 win season with a 30th or below ranked offense?
You seem to be moving the bar from "let's see what Jones does on the field" to "if the Giants don't take a QB then Schoen and Daboll are with me." Is that what is happening?
DJ's injuries certainly are a big factor in the decision process moving forward.
Giants yesterday had six turnovers and the D generated 5 of them. They have been poor at generating TO's for years.
There have been articles on the "hidden points" of the game and some have said a turnover averages out to four points/turnover. Often you see the stats "Points of TO's".
Criticizing DJ's performance in a road playoff game in a dome is pretty weak imv.
If Jalen Hurts tears his ACL this week, the Eagles won't give up on him. Eagles fans won't give up on him. The Eagles football world will be thinking and saying "I hope he comes back healthy next year."
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
Just look at the pass attempts DeVito was making yesterday.
He was throwing downfield, something MANY of us were clamoring for Jones to do more of. I don’t want to hear “but the OL!”, because TD Tommy played behind that same OL yesterday and was sacked 9 times.
As I’ve said before, Jones is Sam Bradford with speed. When his first read isn’t there, he goes to his checkdown. And sorry, he was doing it last year too.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
What people??!?!?!?!! There’s like 1% of the fan base who still thinks he should be the starting quarterback going forward.
I don’t know what will satisfy you guys. Should we all get together and drive to Daniel Jones house and murder him? I just don’t want to read bullshit. Reading about Tommy Devito’s TD passes against the worst scoring defense in the NFL is bullshit. Reading that Daniel Jones and Malik Willis are the same guy is bullshit.
I really don't see very much of anyone overblowing DeVito's game. Yes, it is being used as a tongue in cheek way of highlighting our woes on offense and specifically with Jones at QB. But, this is no different than ardent Jones supporters doing the same with a game against a terrible Minny D, or ignoring that most of Jones numbers were against Washington himself, plus a couple of other bottom feeder Ds.
There appears to be a good amount of blue chippers in this draft. I hope the Giants get one of them.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
Looking forward to your reaction come draft time.
So this season hasn't changed your opinion on Jones at all? You have no concerns or doubts about him moving forward? You 100% believe he is the quarterback they should build around?
I'm not trying to attack you I'm just completely befuddled someone can watch this team and still believe that.
You seem unhinged. Maybe go take a walk or something? Do you think anyone here is actually wanting to murder Jones?
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
This is simple man. Do you believe signing Jones was a good decision and do you believe he can lead the Giants to a championship?
If Jalen Hurts tears his ACL this week, the Eagles won't give up on him. Eagles fans won't give up on him. The Eagles football world will be thinking and saying "I hope he comes back healthy next year."
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
Hurts is a winning quarterback who was in contention for MVP. Kind of an important detail.
You seem unhinged. Maybe go take a walk or something? Do you think anyone here is actually wanting to murder Jones?
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
Are you really that stupid? You think I actually meant that?
They played the worst scoring defense in the league yesterday. If one doesn’t take that into account, then you’re not discussing this seriously.
christian/Tyree - I am not entirely sure what you are doing here. I've answered this question a million times from you guys in the past - and yet you keep asking it.
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
He has the traits I look for in a franchise QB, always has. I feel like coaching and roster makeup have ruined him throughout his career and I was excited to see what he could do with Daboll. As it turned out, his first year with Daboll was pretty good.
So - again - you guys don't need to keep asking this question to me. He was sacked and pressured a million times the first month, a lot of those games got out of hand. It wasn't a sustainable offense with no LT and the beating he was taking.
I don't feel the need to keep saying the same things over and over again. I don't think Jones is the reason we are 3-8. He's not even in the top 5 reasons actually, in my opinion.
But Ryan that pick 6 against Seattle, but Ryan blah blah blah. I'll continue to hear it but I really don't care. I'll be fine with it if they choose to keep building the roster next year and forego QB. I'll accept it and be fine with it if they do pick a QB. I really do not care. Continuing to say this over and over again is pointless.
If Jalen Hurts tears his ACL this week, the Eagles won't give up on him. Eagles fans won't give up on him. The Eagles football world will be thinking and saying "I hope he comes back healthy next year."
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
The contract Jones got is also nowhere near what Hurts got.
Like what can the Jones' apologist say now. How can you defend Jones after today
Oh it's easy, they can just employ the same tactic they take serious umbrage against when used to discredit Jones' performance against the Vikings: the opposition's defense was terrible!
If Jalen Hurts tears his ACL this week, the Eagles won't give up on him. Eagles fans won't give up on him. The Eagles football world will be thinking and saying "I hope he comes back healthy next year."
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
Hurts is a winning quarterback who was in contention for MVP. Kind of an important detail.
Eric, that's my point. Signing Hurts was a good decision, signing Jones was a bad decision.
You seem unhinged. Maybe go take a walk or something? Do you think anyone here is actually wanting to murder Jones?
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
Are you really that stupid? You think I actually meant that?
They played the worst scoring defense in the league yesterday. If one doesn’t take that into account, then you’re not discussing this seriously.
Yeah I am definitely coming across as the stupid one here.
The same people who say "the Vikings defense sucks" are the same people who will never give credit for anything no matter what the guy does, and will always say it is his fault when the team is bad. Same people who fail to understand that it is really hard to win a playoff game on the road no matter who you are playing. Same people somehow fail to recognize that when you are pressured 30 times a game, it is hard to play the position and eventually, you will get injured.
All I continue to say is that Jones has the qualities that can bring the Giants to a championship one day, and I'll be fine with it if they choose to run it back with him next season. They have the youngest roster in the entire league. Would it be wise to take a QB? Sure, probably. Nothing is guaranteed.
I trust Schoen and Daboll. Whatever call they make, that tells me that it is the route they want to go down.
christian/Tyree - I am not entirely sure what you are doing here. I've answered this question a million times from you guys in the past - and yet you keep asking it.
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
OK cool. So having established you believe Jones is a championship caliber quarterback and under contract on reasonable terms -- would it be a mistake for the Giants to spend a high draft picks on a quarterback?
Why are people continuing to say that I am upset DeVito played well and the Giants won yesterday? I am the opposite. I am very happy that DeVito played well and the Giants won. I love the Giants, I hate Washington.
I will be ecstatic if DeVito shines and we play well.
RE: DeVito is going to get better as he continues to play
by some here is bizarre. I understand fan loyalty, but what has Jones done to earn it? One playoff win? And, I'm not saying I think Daniel is awful. I could see him carving out a career like Geno or Alex Smith. But the point is not to settle for a Geno or Alex Smith, but to find someone better. If your position is that the Giants already committed to him and now need to try and make the best of it for a couple years, ok that's at least logical. I think it's wrong, but it's logical. However, there are people on here arguing that he's actually a good QB, which is just not true.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
Like 75% of Jones career passing tds have come against some of the worst defenses in the league.
To put some numbers behind your (slight) exaggeration in the two best statistical years of Jones's career:
2019: Bucs (30th in passing yards), Lions (32nd), Jets (17th), Redskins (18th and spiraling)- 17 TDs (15 pass, 2 run), 4 TOs.
Other 8 starts: 9 TDs, 19 TOs.
2022: Titans (32nd), Vikings (31st), Ravens (26th), Colts (12th but an absolute disaster at that point) - 13 TDs (11 pass, 2 rush), 4 TOs in 5 games
Other 13 starts: 11 TDs (6 pass, 5 rush), 4 TOs
So that's 30 total TDs and 8 TOs in 9 games, vs. 20 TDs and 23 TOs in the other 21 games.
If Jones was more often the guy we saw in those 9 games I don't think anyone would have a problem. The problem is that they aren't representative of his overall body of work:
The same people who say "the Vikings defense sucks" are the same people who will never give credit for anything no matter what the guy does, and will always say it is his fault when the team is bad. Same people who fail to understand that it is really hard to win a playoff game on the road no matter who you are playing. Same people somehow fail to recognize that when you are pressured 30 times a game, it is hard to play the position and eventually, you will get injured.
Remember when, not even two hours ago, you were also talking about people moving the goalposts and "pretty much everyone" agreeing that the DJ contract was a good one? Even though it was then pointed out to you that you move the goalposts more than anyone and the "same people" who are complaining about Jones in 2023 were also saying at the time that the contract was signed that they wished it had been the franchise tag instead?
I think we can safely conclude that any time you make generalizations about "same people" that you're full of shit.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
That is very accurate. It is also because Collinsworth is a little less careful about being critical of players & teams and fans of those players & teams see it as hatred rather than honesty.
Again, Daniel Jones' TD issues have been around for four years, during a time when he has faced many atrocious defenses.
DeVito was also sacked NINE times yesterday. He didn't turn the ball over either.
I don't get your loyalty to Jones here. He hasn't earned it.
This is the funniest thing. What loyalty? I’m one of the people who’s upset that they won yesterday. I want Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. Sy has me very interested in Jayden Daniels.
The Daniel Jones era is over. This need to pile on just makes no sense to me. Its like an old men yelling at a cloud.
christian/Tyree - I am not entirely sure what you are doing here. I've answered this question a million times from you guys in the past - and yet you keep asking it.
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
He has the traits I look for in a franchise QB, always has. I feel like coaching and roster makeup have ruined him throughout his career and I was excited to see what he could do with Daboll. As it turned out, his first year with Daboll was pretty good.
So - again - you guys don't need to keep asking this question to me. He was sacked and pressured a million times the first month, a lot of those games got out of hand. It wasn't a sustainable offense with no LT and the beating he was taking.
I don't feel the need to keep saying the same things over and over again. I don't think Jones is the reason we are 3-8. He's not even in the top 5 reasons actually, in my opinion.
But Ryan that pick 6 against Seattle, but Ryan blah blah blah. I'll continue to hear it but I really don't care. I'll be fine with it if they choose to keep building the roster next year and forego QB. I'll accept it and be fine with it if they do pick a QB. I really do not care. Continuing to say this over and over again is pointless.
Thats fair and you are entitled to your opinion. I would ask though-
Jones has been here 5 seasons with 3 coaching staffs and many different roster variations. He has been objectively not a good qb and the team has a losing record. He's been the one constant. You truly believe "coaching and roster makeup have ruined him" and he deserves no blame for the teams poor play?
He has also been objectively very bad this season. His 2nd string and 3rd string backups have performed objectively better this season. Quite simply Taylor and Devito have made plays and throws Jones failed to do at all this season. None of this concerns you or gives you doubt about Jones?
And what traits does he possess that you look for in a franchise quarterback?
The asterisk that some seem to put on the DeVito performance is odd.
Yeah, I particularly liked the argument that DeVito has a garbage time TDs, like Jones doesn't.
If you guys haven't noticed, I've avoid much of the endless Daniel Jones threads for the past six months. The reason is I still had not made my mind up on him, plus how can you make a determination in January - August?
I was thrilled he was having his best training camp.
But once the games counted for real, the TDs dried up again. Was the OL a big part of that? Yes. But the OL was also a huge issue yesterday. The Giants didn't have any rushing yards until the last play of the 3rd quarter. DeVito was sacked nine times and the Giants had 12 plays that were tackled for a loss.
But DeVito led the offense to 24 points. He didn't turn the ball over either.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
I like Collinsworth, but I think he definitely has an arrogance about him (not as much as he used to) that bothers people. I know your point is not about why fans may not like Collinsworth.
As for Terps - He has had some good insight, but I also think he is being at least a bit overrated by some on this board. To me, the accuracy of his opinions/predictions don't stand out amongst other good posters. Like the rest of us, he has gotten some right and some wrong.
Terps has a way of convincing people on this board that he knows stuff about football.
For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money.
That's called being disingenuous and flipping the argument in your favor, no matter the outcome.
Was a 4 star recruit that was heavily fought over going to college and landing at Alabama where he started in his second game as a true freshman
In college he led Bama to an 11-1 season and won the Sugar Bowl MVP and Bama ultimately won the National title (yes he was benched in the game)
Hurts transferred to Oklahoma and led them to a Big 12, the playoffs and he finished second in the Heisman voting
Hurts had 9500 pass yds 80 TD to 20 int and 3500 rush yds and 43 rush TDs
So 123 total TDs with major success at 2 huge college programs and and a National title
In the pros, Hurts took over the starting job end of his rookie year on a non-playoff team and has went 31-12. He has 11k passing yds and 59 TDs to 27 ints he has 3300 rush yds and 33 rush TDs
He took the team to the Super Bowl in a year where he was in top 5 for MVP votes
He had a total of 370 yds and 4 TDs in the Super Bowl
Im sorry comparing Jones to Hurts at this stage is not reality.
One is 22-36-1 and one is 31-12
One has 92 TDs to 75 TDs despite playing in 15 less games
One has been an NFL MVP candidate
One has won a National title and been to a Super Bowl and one has won the Quick Lane Bowl and a playoff game
One had 123 college TDs and one had 69
One was second in Heisman and one win Senior Bowl MVP
One was a 4 star recruit to Alabama and one was a walk on at Duke
At every level Hurts has succeeded and produced and brought big time results. Jones has not at any level.
In comment 16296581 ryanmkeane said:
[quote]For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money./quote]
Terps has argued from the time before you were on BBI that teams should take big swings at many QBs, and then move on from them if they don't produce.
You couldn't be more wrong about the above assessment.
And in the Super Bowl Hurts was the best player on the field
that they only think about things in terms of people copy/pasting their posts in the future, rather than actually having a thoughtful opinion, and some conviction to stand by that opinion.
The funniest part is that anyone can copy/paste the refusal to demonstrate conviction just as easily, with even more impact.
Here is the biggest indictment for me against Jones
What's funny is DeVito's college passing stats are slightly better than Jones's. DeVito was a four star recruit coming out of high school. Jones zero star. DeVito was an undrafted free agent. Jones was drafted sixth overall.
If this situation were happening on another team we'd all be laughing our asses off at such a stupid handling of the QB position.
There actually was a thread where people did exactly that early in the season: the thread about the 9'ers trading Trey Lance. A few even said it was grounds for firing John Lynch.
I just don't understand how any fan could want to move forward with Jones. There is overwhelming evidence that he is not any good.
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
Terps - saying things like "Malik Willis is the same as Daniel Jones" is not only ridiculous on its face but it makes me think that you actually believe the nonsense you are saying.
But here's an example that also addresses Eric's question: people who really stalk and bash Terps oversimplify, misconstrue, or just don't even try to get his positions, whether deliberately or not.
What he said about Malik Willis vs Jones is not what you think you said. That's why the only people here who keep harping on that point are guys like you and Speedywheels, whereas guys like JonC don't: they allow themselves to know what Terps meant.
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
Sports are replete with such "heroic" individual performances that dramatically eclipse what the individual consistently puts forth. It's never wise to use these performances as THE sample size but it's so common to do.
Hell, as a Warriors fan I'm seeing it right now with Jordan Poole.
is basically hoping to repeat last year's season if everything breaks well. Are you really going to be able to build the super elite roster that's needed to win with a QB outside the top 10, likely outside the top 15, and maybe outside the top 20 QBs, when you're paying such a huge cap hit to Jones? That doesn't even account for the fact that he's constantly hurt and him even being a top 15 QB requires him to run and take hits that it's been proven will eventually injure him.
Giants don't have to mortgage the future and trade future picks to move into the top 2 to grab one of these QBs. But the DJ era has to end after next year at the latest.
It is so confusing to me. I really don’t get the love for the guy.
It's mind boggling. I wanted Jones to do well and take the next step this year. But it's crystal clear he's not the answer and I'm not even sure how that can be debated at this point.
It reminds a little of Knicks fans with Frank Ntilkina.
but I am getting tired of seeing the same poster change what was said over and over again.
Terps did suggest the Giants draft Willis. The point being that he believed he was probably better than Jones, but also if he wasn't, you make that evaluation quickly and move on - what the Giants did not do with Jones when it was evident that they had missed on him. He also suggested a bad Willis on a rookie deal was better than a bad Jones on a $40M deal. That isn't wrong.
If you want to have a discussion about how much a poster sucks, discuss what they actually said.
why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
That is very accurate. It is also because Collinsworth is a little less careful about being critical of players & teams and fans of those players & teams see it as hatred rather than honesty.
I remember Collinsworth appearing on someone's podcast (think it was Bill Simmons') and was asked what he does when obnoxious fans demand to know why he hates their team. He said he got to the point know where his answer is, "I don't know, I just do."
The Daniel Jones era is over. This need to pile on just makes no sense to me. Its like an old men yelling at a cloud.
There's definitely some truth here, and I think a lot of people involved in continuing the debate are either just enjoying needling their opponents on the other side of the argument a little bit, or are getting really defensive about said needling or just the potential for needling.
Terps - saying things like "Malik Willis is the same as Daniel Jones" is not only ridiculous on its face but it makes me think that you actually believe the nonsense you are saying.
But here's an example that also addresses Eric's question: people who really stalk and bash Terps oversimplify, misconstrue, or just don't even try to get his positions, whether deliberately or not.
What he said about Malik Willis vs Jones is not what you think you said. That's why the only people here who keep harping on that point are guys like you and Speedywheels, whereas guys like JonC don't: they allow themselves to know what Terps meant.
Terps also advocated trading a 2nd round pick for Nick Mullens. If the team sucks and a poster advocates trades at all times, of course he’s going to look prescient. We all want the Giants to win games, but it does get exceedingly old when every thread devolves into a high brow version of “trade this guy and that one and get as many draft picks as we can, Daniel Jones is a backup level player……”
This place used to handle the nuances of the game a little better. Or maybe I just got older since January 2003.
Tim Tebow is one of the most compelling comps for Jones' career. I can't decide if it's:
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Mitch Trubisky
Tim Tebow
To me it's Trubisky. Sure, he didn't have the luxury of playing an all-time terrible defense in the playoffs, but he threw for over 300 yards, threw a TD in the 4th quarter that gave his team the lead, and then drove into FG range with under a minute on the clock. If Cody Parkey could make a 43-yard FG, he'd have a playoff win on his mediocre resume too.
For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money.
That's called being disingenuous and flipping the argument in your favor, no matter the outcome.
But what you repeatedly don't get is that it's disingenuous to misrepresent people's positions, which you repeatedly do.
Either that, or you're just not understanding the positions very well to begin with and I'm definitely not ruling that possibility out.
Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
It is but I think it has more to do with how Waller was a crutch and now they have to spread it around.
I was half joking cause Waller does bring things credible to the offense. But if he had a true number 1 and a QB who is consistent - he could be a big factor.
Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
I’d be thrilled if we’ve seen the last of him as a Giant.
He can't throw the ball to himself!
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
His injuries are my concern. Dude is always hurt. Tough to rely on him.
Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
I’d be thrilled if we’ve seen the last of him as a Giant.
He can't throw the ball to himself!
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
How many players do we need to see perform better away from Jones before we can confidently say Jones is the issue? Even Barkley is producing in the passing game with DeVito.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Hopefully the Mara's, McDonnell's and Papa's of the world
The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
He's also the asshole who preaches to draft a QB every year, but preemptively bashes Schoen for even thinking about drafting a QB this year, because that would be "giving up" on Jones after 5 games into his contract.
But of course, he ignores Philly drafting Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract.
He's all about himself. Always has been. He's been wrong many more times he's right. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating. He's a fucking caricature at this point.
Look, I don’t agree with Terps on a lot of things, but the fact that he posts things that you don’t agree with makes him an asshole? Grow up.
I just love the irony of people downplaying the level of play
of Washington or mentioning garbage time, etc. But, when those same things were said about Jones it was dismissed.
I don't want Jones to fail. But, I also don't want to continue committing to a guy I am not convinced can get it done. I have no desire to even consider DeVito moving forward as anything other than a potential backup or #3. I wouldn't let DeVito's play make me say Hell no to one of 4 of the top QBs available. I mean, in the unrealistic scenario that DeVito has more games like this the rest of the way...maybe. But, it is not likely we see this from him against Philly, for example.
For me, DeVito having a game like this is more about what we haven't gotten from Jones than anything we are getting from DeVito. To that end, I think the argument of placing ALL blame on the OL and the false narrative that there is nobody to throw to go out the window. The bottom line is, your $40M QB has to actually be able to make plays when they are there, regardless of the pressure. When he doesn't, but an undrafted and unheralded rookie who was there as nothing more than a nice story and potential development project makes some plays, it doesn't look good.
RE: Terps doesn't need me to explain anything for him
but I am getting tired of seeing the same poster change what was said over and over again.
Terps did suggest the Giants draft Willis. The point being that he believed he was probably better than Jones, but also if he wasn't, you make that evaluation quickly and move on - what the Giants did not do with Jones when it was evident that they had missed on him. He also suggested a bad Willis on a rookie deal was better than a bad Jones on a $40M deal. That isn't wrong.
If you want to have a discussion about how much a poster sucks, discuss what they actually said.
I'm trying to make the same point. It won't land, so I don't know why I keep trying.
Where there is a will to misunderstand someone, there is a way. And in this case, there's definitely a will.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
If a year and a half of Judge and Garrett broke him he wasn't gonna survive anyway. They tried to coach the turnovers out of him but I can't believe they were THAT effective.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
If Jones wasn't due a grossly astronomical balloon of a guaranteed salary next year, what do you think the Giants front office would do with him? What would you do?
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
If a year and a half of Judge and Garrett broke him he wasn't gonna survive anyway. They tried to coach the turnovers out of him but I can't believe they were THAT effective.
They really didn't coach the turnovers out of him. They reduced the scheme. Made it simpler. Made the throws shorter and more high percentage. What happened is the depth of target got unsustainably low, turnovers went down, completion pct went up.
Then when Daboll dialed up the vertical schemes, Jones couldn't adjust, and returned to the mistake-prone QB he has always been.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
It's the quarterback. That's the common denominator.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
Sometimes it takes a venue change for a player to realize he has to step up his game. Otherwise, he'll be out of options altogether soon.
and Feliciano were terrible players. I dont give a rats ass what they do on their next team. And I dont think Hernandez has been anything but average anyways.
Its ok to say Jones has been been/disappointing. But so have been a lot of players around him.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
If Jones wasn't due a grossly astronomical balloon of a guaranteed salary next year, what do you think the Giants front office would do with him? What would you do?
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
If DeVito is effective vs. NE, we will not be able to stash him on our PS next season. I’m assuming Tyrod comes back after the bye to finish out the string of the season. QB play is so bad around the league that a 25-26 year old kid with DeVito’s arm/intangibles will get scooped up, I think.
If we plan on keeping DeVito and he keeps doing what he did yesterday, stashing him will mean losing him.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
Sometimes it takes a venue change for a player to realize he has to step up his game. Otherwise, he'll be out of options altogether soon.
Jones will soon be out of options. QBs like Jones who get paid big money, the way Jones has, leave the game: Bortles, Osweiler. The ones who don't get paid, toil as backups: Trubisky.
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
I have a hunch you might be right. Sure, there are probably a few plays here and there that do show Jones standing tall in the pocket and looking downfield. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of highlights of big plays show him throwing to someone who was likely his first read, who was schemed open.
And hey, that's probably true of most quarterbacks honestly. But perhaps many of them wouldn't be easy to mitigate by selling out to take away the first read.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
Feel for the pocket is something Jones demonstrated he's consistently
not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
I didn't say Shurmur was better or worse than Daboll. He ran a scheme where Jones could have temporary success. Daboll also ran a scheme where Jones could have temporary success, both were highly defined. When defenses adjusted, Jones' success was short lived.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There should be a case study
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
Exactly.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There should be a case study
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
How was Shurmur’s tenure as offensive coordinator for the Broncos? He was fired after 2 seasons. Shurmur is a good coach, but saying Jones thrived because of Shurmur is bullshit. Daboll is a better coach.
Criticizing DJ's performance in a road playoff game in a dome is pretty weak imv.
THiS is an example of “moving the goalposts”. No one, and I mean NO ONE is criticizing Jones’ performance v Minny, just pointing out that he did it against the worst pass D in the NFL. So if you’re going to minimize TD Tommy’s performance for coming against an admittedly bad DC defense, why is it “criticism” when posters do the same with Jones?
As JonC pointed out, this is the NFL, you HAVE to produce in the passing game. Even Baltimore realized that they need to get more pass production out of Lamar, so much so that they swapped out OC’s to do so. Jones cannot consistently produce in the passing game, I don’t know how much more some posters have to see before they acknowledge that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: There should be a case study
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
How was Shurmur’s tenure as offensive coordinator for the Broncos? He was fired after 2 seasons. Shurmur is a good coach, but saying Jones thrived because of Shurmur is bullshit. Daboll is a better coach.
I think it's more about Shurmur's resume of temporarily coaxing the most out of mediocrity.
Keenum. Jones. Bridgewater in 2021 had 20 total TDs in 14 starts against only 8 turnovers.
RE: Feel for the pocket is something Jones demonstrated he's consistently
not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
And, it's been acknowledged, repeatedly. At the end of the day, Jones is the inconsistent passer he's always been, and is regressing.
I asked this over the past few seasons, and it remains valid now; who honestly sees Jones raising a Lombardi?
RE: RE: Feel for the pocket is something Jones demonstrated he's consistently
not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
But, do they? How do we know this? Other than assuming it is true of QBs who face a lot of pressure and never get it together, how are we certain that it is PTSD vs. lack of skill and talent? People keep repeating it like it is true. David Carr got sacked a lot and never became a good QB, so people made him the poster boy for QBs who got broken by bad organizations. But maybe David Carr was a bad QB and no matter what happened he was never going to be Aaron Rodgers. Or even Derek Carr.
This idea that QBs get broken and never recover, it's just a fan theory. and a lazy one at that.
Plenty of great QBs got pressure and harassed at some point in their careers.
I think Kurt Warner’s career trajectory is interesting. He started his career in a Martz system that clearly exposed QBs to a beating. For 2003 and maybe 2004 he was only quasi-functional. At the time, I thought he was done and should retire. Instead, he recovered and eventually led a team to a SB appearance.
So that’s one example of a very good QB who suffered from too many hits but he recovered with some rest time and was able to play well after that.
I just don't understand how any fan could want to move forward with Jones. There is overwhelming evidence that he is not any good.
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
I truly don't get it.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
This is exactly right. Devito proved UNEQUIVOCALLY yesterday that an undrafted rookie could not only perform well behind a crappy OL in front of him, even taking nine sacks in the process, but win a game with a solid vertical passing game where he actually ELEVATES the players around him.
The DJ narrative that has been so definitively wrong for years on this board that "...he would be good if only he had a good OL and good weapons" was obliterated for good yesterday. DJ was overdrafted and is at best a backup level NFL talent. If not for a very shrewd head coach last year, and an enormous amount of luck in terms of the schedule of opponents and the first round powder puff Viking draw in the playoffs, he would have been gone well before the 2023 football year began. The contract given to him by Schoen was the single dumbest decision ever made by this organization.
And BTW, if Daboll can do what he has done with Tommy Devito, he could certainly elevate guys like Malik Willis just as well if not better than he did with Daniel Jones. The simple fact is, Terps has always been right on the proper approach to the quarterback position for this franchise. The team and its fans would do well to consider and respect his opinions going forward.
But at least we now know that The DJ Era, the most brutal five year period in this franchise's history, is now finally and mercifully over. Hallelujah! The future is brighter today than at any moment since bleak Thursday 4/25/2019. And it begins now!
On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
There kind of is already: Case Keenum with Shurmur vs. without
Murmur is actually pretty good with inflating garbage QB regular season stats.
I just don't understand how any fan could want to move forward with Jones. There is overwhelming evidence that he is not any good.
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
I truly don't get it.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
Everyone has been rooting for Daniel Jones. Do you have any idea how much better off the Giants would be if Daniel Jones was the QB some of you hope he could be? It would be fucking incredible, the absolutely best case scenario would be for Daniel Jones to be terrific.
Unfortunately, all the hoping in the world can't make up for reality. If it makes you feel like you're a better fan, go right ahead.
I am not sure anything was proven yesterday in regard to what kind of a player Tommy DeVito is and whether he can survive in terrible circumstances. It takes more than one game to prove that in my view. Washington's defense is worth noting if we think this performance yesterday was telling about what kind of a player DeVito is.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
This is the core issue of the DJ debates, as far as I can tell.
Some fans just cannot separate their heart from their head. Every single Giants fan has rooted for DJ to succeed.
Where we divide isn't on the rooting front. We divide on our objective view of whether DJ can succeed or not. And of course, that's limited by our collective ability to actually be objective in the first place, and then further limited by our ability to know enough about what we're seeing to even inform an objective viewpoint at all.
But none of this is about rooting. We're all rooting for the Giants, and we have all rooted for DJ to succeed. Some fans have reached the point where they no longer believe that the Giants can reach the top tier with DJ at QB, and others believe that DJ can absolutely take the Giants to that top tier.
That's not a matter of rooting. Rooting is emotional.
It's much more academic than that. I understand why some fans choose not to separate the two - it's easier that way, and honestly, not everyone should be obligated to enjoy sports the same way. But I find the whole suggestion that DJ's critics are bad fans, or are somehow less loyal, to be a weak, desperate argument. Usually, it tends to come up when posters are just trying to fend off a TKO long enough for the bell to ring.
We all want what's best for the Giants. We just disagree along the way about what the "what's best for the Giants" entails. I could just as easily conclude that the fans that remain entrenched in their unwavering DJ support are bad fans because they're rooting for a QB that I believe is an impediment to team success. I could conclude that you couldn't possibly be rooting for the Giants to win if you want DJ to remain the QB.
But that's a shitty way to argue. I'd much rather hear why you believe DJ can succeed, and discuss those points, and likewise, I'd much rather have others hear why I believe DJ is a liability, and discuss my point of view as well.
Leave the silly scorekeeping of fan loyalty out of it, because it's an empty argument.
RE: RE: RE: Feel for the pocket is something Jones demonstrated he's consistently
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
But, do they? How do we know this? Other than assuming it is true of QBs who face a lot of pressure and never get it together, how are we certain that it is PTSD vs. lack of skill and talent? People keep repeating it like it is true. David Carr got sacked a lot and never became a good QB, so people made him the poster boy for QBs who got broken by bad organizations. But maybe David Carr was a bad QB and no matter what happened he was never going to be Aaron Rodgers. Or even Derek Carr.
This idea that QBs get broken and never recover, it's just a fan theory. and a lazy one at that.
Plenty of great QBs got pressure and harassed at some point in their careers.
You don't have to look to David Carr to find examples.
Eli in his last few years was not the same QB he was when he was younger. A lot of that had to do with repetitive beatings he was taking in the pocket, IMO. He lost the ability to elevate his team. 32-51 in his last six seasons, 9-26 in his last three.
Kerry Collins had a rifle and given time could be pretty damn good. Couldn't function under pressure though.
Not really a lazy theory there, newbie.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
What is the "start over again and rebuild" piece? We are talking about replacing an unproductive QB, not dismantle the entire team.
And by the way, to the extent any of you thought the 2023 roster represented a finished product just because Jones got a big contract then you are watching close enough.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
DeVito in two other threads section331. Not sure where your goalpost comment comes into play but perhaps you need to take a look at how you determine moving them.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
This is the core issue of the DJ debates, as far as I can tell.
Some fans just cannot separate their heart from their head. Every single Giants fan has rooted for DJ to succeed.
Where we divide isn't on the rooting front. We divide on our objective view of whether DJ can succeed or not. And of course, that's limited by our collective ability to actually be objective in the first place, and then further limited by our ability to know enough about what we're seeing to even inform an objective viewpoint at all.
But none of this is about rooting. We're all rooting for the Giants, and we have all rooted for DJ to succeed. Some fans have reached the point where they no longer believe that the Giants can reach the top tier with DJ at QB, and others believe that DJ can absolutely take the Giants to that top tier.
That's not a matter of rooting. Rooting is emotional.
It's much more academic than that. I understand why some fans choose not to separate the two - it's easier that way, and honestly, not everyone should be obligated to enjoy sports the same way. But I find the whole suggestion that DJ's critics are bad fans, or are somehow less loyal, to be a weak, desperate argument. Usually, it tends to come up when posters are just trying to fend off a TKO long enough for the bell to ring.
We all want what's best for the Giants. We just disagree along the way about what the "what's best for the Giants" entails. I could just as easily conclude that the fans that remain entrenched in their unwavering DJ support are bad fans because they're rooting for a QB that I believe is an impediment to team success. I could conclude that you couldn't possibly be rooting for the Giants to win if you want DJ to remain the QB.
But that's a shitty way to argue. I'd much rather hear why you believe DJ can succeed, and discuss those points, and likewise, I'd much rather have others hear why I believe DJ is a liability, and discuss my point of view as well.
Leave the silly scorekeeping of fan loyalty out of it, because it's an empty argument.
I never understand the people arguing based on what they want to happen.
If I see a car fly off a cliff into a canyon like Thelma and Louise I want everyone inside to be ok, but what I want doesn't really matter.
It's the same thing here. We see this organization make mistakes so often we can narrate them as they happen, but we're not supposed to call them mistakes because we root for the team??? I don't get it.
I am not sure anything was proven yesterday in regard to what kind of a player Tommy DeVito is and whether he can survive in terrible circumstances. It takes more than one game to prove that in my view. Washington's defense is worth noting if we think this performance yesterday was telling about what kind of a player DeVito is.
Proof requires more evidence of course but we're talking about a rookie UDFA with 3 weeks on the active roster. Whatever you think of the WSH defense, it's an absolutely inconceivable result no one would have taken a bet on that he'd thrive. Washington's defense isn't great, but they played with Philly and didn't look as bad as Sunday.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
If the Giants go 10-7/11-6 with Jones and win a Playoff game, there is no way the Giants turnbit over to an uproven QB in 2025. They will simply roll it back with Jones again.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
If the Giants go 10-7/11-6 with Jones and win a Playoff game, there is no way the Giants turnbit over to an uproven QB in 2025. They will simply roll it back with Jones again.
But that's not what I (or The Mike) was saying, which I suspect you know.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
But the poiny id Jones will be on the roster in 2024 because they are not cutting him to eat all that money. He will get his shot tp turn it around. If he leads the team to 11 wind and a playoff victory, there is no way the Giants don't bring him back in 2025.
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
But the poiny id Jones will be on the roster in 2024 because they are not cutting him to eat all that money. He will get his shot tp turn it around. If he leads the team to 11 wind and a playoff victory, there is no way the Giants don't bring him back in 2025.
Yes, Jones will be on the roster next season. If they don't take a QB and Jones starts and is terrible, Schoen and Daboll are probably out. If he's great, they will be back. At this point, which scenario seems more likely?
Separately, if they draft a QB and Jones still starts and is great, they can trade him. If Jones starts and is terrible, they have this rookie QB they just drafted to develop. In that case I doubt they get fired.
I'm not sure which part you're contesting? Is it that because Jones will be on the roster regardless they shouldn't take a QB?
But Jones really regressed this year and I saw him from a different perspective.
Jones is very mechanical. Does not have a feel for the game.
Devito is very instinctive, navigates the pocket and looks to get the ball downfield. Jones does none of this. I also think Devito has a quicker release and is more accurate.
Jones has not had an ideal supporting cast but Devito is working with the same players and with much less practice time.
That won’t work because decisions on starting will occur in real time, not with a retrospective view of Jones’ final results. I also don’t think it’s at all clear clear that Jones will be healthy enough to start in September, let alone play his style of football. The draft rookie will start and, if he plays well, Jones will ride the bench.
But Jones really regressed this year and I saw him from a different perspective.
Jones is very mechanical. Does not have a feel for the game.
Devito is very instinctive, navigates the pocket and looks to get the ball downfield. Jones does none of this. I also think Devito has a quicker release and is more accurate.
Jones has not had an ideal supporting cast but Devito is working with the same players and with much less practice time.
The tide has gone out and Jones has been exposed.
I think these are good points. Nobody would say based on the small sample that DeVito is better than anyone. But it is true that Jones is mechanical. DeVito does seem more instinctive. Doesn't mean that DeVito won't turn into Nathan Peterman with more exposure. Instinct is all well and good, but you obviously need more than that to succeed in the NFL.
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Exactly. You criticze Jones and you’re not a real fan, yet some of the same posters acted like Evan Engram shot their mother every time he dropped a pass.
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Exactly. You criticze Jones and you’re not a real fan, yet some of the same posters acted like Evan Engram shot their mother every time he dropped a pass.
The same Evan Engram who is part of a growing list of players who found success once they left the Giants.
The real pressure after watching Taylor and now Devito
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
You are right that DJ is properly categorized as a backup level talent, comparable to the Bredesons and Glowinskis of the world. But nobody would be dumb enough to give twenty percent of the cap to these types of guys. Except the Giants did with DJ.
So the shills and delusional optimists who for some reason feel the need to defend the inexplicably bad decisions made by the management of this organization, scream loudly and pejoratively at anyone who points out the obvious facts that conflict with the fiction being blown up our asses.
A very important point being overlooked: He is injury prone.
Even if he were as good as his supporters say, the guy is susceptible to injury, which is a huge problem. But couple his *actual* performance with being injury prone, he is not a worthwhile starting QB.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
Why does he get afforded every excuse in the book? Is there another QB in the NFL who has been given this long of leash and been given every explanation possible to explain his poor play over 60 games?
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Because the litmus test is more a function of how far those fans took their opinions from the start, and how they react when those opinions now look battered/bruised.
Why does he get afforded every excuse in the book? Is there another QB in the NFL who has been given this long of leash and been given every explanation possible to explain his poor play over 60 games?
I try to be as the middle as possible with Jones. He has been dogshit this year. No doubt. But I thought he was actually pretty good last year.
Its not making excuses for him. Saying his OL and skill players are below par arent excuses, they are reality. However, even with these units - he hasnt made plays when they are there.
I think its fair to say he hasnt been that good for 5 years and neither has been the team and its time to move on and basically start with someone new.
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Gettleman wasn't the only guy to fall into Full Bloom Love with Jones.
RE: A very important point being overlooked: He is injury prone.
Even if he were as good as his supporters say, the guy is susceptible to injury, which is a huge problem. But couple his *actual* performance with being injury prone, he is not a worthwhile starting QB.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
I think this is spot on.
Talent wise - he has the attributes - but is unable to put it together. Now throw in the injury bug.
It's time to find his replacement. And this still new regime should be embracing the chance now to go get the guy they want.
RE: RE: A very important point being overlooked: He is injury prone.
Even if he were as good as his supporters say, the guy is susceptible to injury, which is a huge problem. But couple his *actual* performance with being injury prone, he is not a worthwhile starting QB.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
I think this is spot on.
Talent wise - he has the attributes - but is unable to put it together. Now throw in the injury bug.
It's time to find his replacement. And this still new regime should be embracing the chance now to go get the guy they want.
I would say he has all the physical attributes to succeed. The mental part of the game was his handicap coming into the league, and he has made little to no progress there.
People will read that as taking an unnecessary shot
If Jones wasn't due a grossly astronomical balloon of a guaranteed salary next year, what do you think the Giants front office would do with him? What would you do?
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
If DeVito is effective vs. NE, we will not be able to stash him on our PS next season. I’m assuming Tyrod comes back after the bye to finish out the string of the season. QB play is so bad around the league that a 25-26 year old kid with DeVito’s arm/intangibles will get scooped up, I think.
If we plan on keeping DeVito and he keeps doing what he did yesterday, stashing him will mean losing him.
That's my gut. Would they carry 3 QBs or move on? Because Jones and rookie (hopefully) will be on the roster.
Being able to stand in the pocket and process QUICKLY and accurately are often the key factor in success, due to the speed (and violence) of the NFL game.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Gettleman wasn't the only guy to fall into Full Bloom Love with Jones.
Too many people look at Jones like a guy they would gladly want their daughter or sister to bring home for Thanksgiving.
He'll help set the table, offer to clean up, say please and thank you, and play catch with you in the backyard.
And as long as you're wide open, you'd have a pretty okay shot at him getting you the ball.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Being able to stand in the pocket and process QUICKLY and accurately are often the key factor in success, due to the speed (and violence) of the NFL game.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
Both Manning and Brady had merely above-average arms but this is where they exceled. The reason Mahomes and Rodgers look like Gods sometimes is that they have cannons and the processor (and the ad-lib ability). Apparently Marino was also like this but unfortunately that was before my time.
Another thing is accuracy. Think Eli's throw to Manningham in the Super Bowl 46. Or vintage Drew Brees--throw passes to hit guys in stride gives you way more chance for YAC. Also consider Jones' missed throw to Waller at the end of the Niners game--good, accurate QBs make that completion.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
"All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him.”
No one believes that. Straw man.
We just know what we have in DJ and it isn’t enough.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
What is this assessment based on? Why do you think you can win a super bowl with a player who hasn't proven much of anything in 5 years?
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
If whatever QB they take busts, they would have just replaced one highly drafted bust with another. There’s zero reason for the Giants to continue with Jones.
Being able to stand in the pocket and process QUICKLY and accurately are often the key factor in success, due to the speed (and violence) of the NFL game.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
Agreed. But I think it's impossible to predict if that skill exists because the NFL game is so much more complex and faster than college. And the mental acuity testing can only reveal so much. Until a QB is actually in the line of fire and the lights are on, there is some serious finger crossing going on...
That's why I would rather take the plus/plus-plus skills and hope I have the right prospect and right coaches to develop that ability.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
If whatever QB they take busts, they would have just replaced one highly drafted bust with another. There’s zero reason for the Giants to continue with Jones.
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
"All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him.”
No one believes that. Straw man.
We just know what we have in DJ and it isn’t enough.
I'm not trying to completely shit all over Jones but is there any current or recent NFL QB with a similar track record after 5 seasons that has retained his starting job?
This isn't even a player that can't stay healthy wish flashes of brilliance or even a guy who can't eliminate mistakes. This is a guy after 59 games that has shown you he's not a good starting nfl quarterback and its plain as day.
I like their chances at a upgrade. To continue to build around Jones is insanity.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
Since the Giants won't be picking top 5, that takes care of that. Packer's, Patriots, and one other game will be w's. 5-12 or 6-11 finish. Book it.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
You can't expect him to continue that and play 17 games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Top 15? When has he produced as a top 15 QB? I would expect a top 15 QB to throw more than 15 TD passes.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
But that goes back to the point-How do you know Jone's isn't good enough? You can't base it off this season with Kafka's horrible play calling and the Giants major injuries. Jones was bad this season. No one saying he was good. But, he obviouly was dealt a terrible hand.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
But that goes back to the point-How do you know Jone's isn't good enough? You can't base it off this season with Kafka's horrible play calling and the Giants major injuries. Jones was bad this season. No one saying he was good. But, he obviouly was dealt a terrible hand.
A terrible hand that an UDFA was able to do something with. Maybe Jones is the terrible hand and is holding everyone else back. He’s had 3 dreadful years in the last 4, and last year continues to be wildly overrated by the DJFC. He still threw for 15 TD’s in 17 games. That doesn’t cut it. Yes, he ran for 7, but QB’s have to produce in the passing game. Even Baltimore realizes that, and Lamar is a far better runner than Jones.
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
Okay, how about Jalen Hurts? He ran for 760 yards and 13 TDs, on top of the 22 passing TDs. Lamar Jackson, in 12 games, ran for over 700 yards and 3 TDs, while throwing 17.
Jones totaled roughly 3900 yards and 22 TDs last year. There are 15 QBs who had more TDs, plus Jackson who missed 5 games. That list doesn't even include newcomers like CJ Stroud who already has 19 TDs this year, or Brock Purdy who has 20.
I'm sorry you're pot committed on Jones for whatever reason, but you should try watching the rest of the NFL sometime.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
Since the Giants won't be picking top 5, that takes care of that. Packer's, Patriots, and one other game will be w's. 5-12 or 6-11 finish. Book it.
Have you watched the Giants? They got 6 turnovers and the game was still down to the wire
21% of Jones's passing touchdowns came from three starts, all of which came in his rookie year.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
Washington 12-22-2019: 5
Detroit 10-27-2019: 4
Jets 11-10-2019: 4
Total is 13, divided by the 62 total passing TDs is 20.97%.
Jones has had 16 games where he has thrown for two or more TDs. He's had 59 starts and played 60 games total. DeVito has two in as many starts.
It's insane, isn't it?
Drafting him was insane. Paying him twenty percent of the cap is a previously undiscovered acute indication of the illness likely to be known going forward as "Daniel Jones level of insanity"...
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
Okay, how about Jalen Hurts? He ran for 760 yards and 13 TDs, on top of the 22 passing TDs. Lamar Jackson, in 12 games, ran for over 700 yards and 3 TDs, while throwing 17.
Jones totaled roughly 3900 yards and 22 TDs last year. There are 15 QBs who had more TDs, plus Jackson who missed 5 games. That list doesn't even include newcomers like CJ Stroud who already has 19 TDs this year, or Brock Purdy who has 20.
I'm sorry you're pot committed on Jones for whatever reason, but you should try watching the rest of the NFL sometime.
So you could only name 3 other players in the league who can compare to Jones as a runner. Sounds like you proved my point for me.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
"Trying is the first step to failure, so never try."
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Oh, I'd say that Top-15 ranking comes with plenty of questions.
Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
Somebody here had a great post on why the draft is not a crapshoot a few weeks ago. I want to say it was cosmic. But I can't find it now.
have I seen so many people say a player going into his 6th year, just needs more time. It's astonishing.
We're in some bizarro world. Some fan of another team wondered on reddit the other day, what a strange player to have a cult around him. I forget which subreddit it was, but fans around the league have noticed the unusual allegiance some NYG fans have for Jones.
have I seen so many people say a player going into his 6th year, just needs more time. It's astonishing.
We're in some bizarro world. Some fan of another team wondered on reddit the other day, what a strange player to have a cult around him. I forget which subreddit it was, but fans around the league have noticed the unusual allegiance some NYG fans have for Jones.
Next year, will all of you come on this site and admit you are wrong? Somehow I doubt it. You'll probably just pull a disappearing act ala Terps.
If your aunt comes up to you next year and tells you she now has balls are you going to admit you were wrong for calling her Aunt Martha all those years prior to her suddenly having testicles?
Btw, each of these scenarios have about the same likelihood of happening, but that’s besides the point
RE: So if Jones has a 20-25 TD pass and 5-7 rushing TD season
Next year, will all of you come on this site and admit you are wrong? Somehow I doubt it. You'll probably just pull a disappearing act ala Terps.
He was supposed to hit these marks in 2023. Remember? He was falling way short until the injuries. He's not productive. He'll never be a 35 TD pass QB. Without the running he's got nothing. And he's utterly robotic. It's hard to watch him play.
have I seen so many people say a player going into his 6th year, just needs more time. It's astonishing.
It is an incredible phenomena.
Many won't be ready to cut the cord until they see Jones playing in football utopia. An OL that gives him four Mississippis. Top five receiving corp. And, of course, his BFF RB Barkley.
There is a saying in professional sports that you know a hall of famer when you see one. It's pretty damn clear.
It's the same with a franchise QB. You know one when you see one. And it doesn't require a perfect set of circumstances.
Unfortunately, our GM thought he saw one. Which to me is a red flag on Schoen. And begs the question why anyone is comfortable with him possibly finding a replacement?
I don't understand how a Giants fan could watch the actual good quarterbacks in the league and feel good about trotting Jones out there. Jones has not, in 8 years of football at NYG or Duke, exceeded 6.8 Y/A.
I don't understand how a Giants fan could watch the actual good quarterbacks in the league and feel good about trotting Jones out there. Jones has not, in 8 years of football at NYG or Duke, exceeded 6.8 Y/A.
The standards here have been pathetic.
There are a significant number of fans who live in a NYG silo only. And rarely watch other teams. But when they do, they think the differences with a Herbert or Allen to Jones is negligible.
It's even more laughable on the college side. The college gameday thread is littered every Saturday with posters who are unable to see that a CW, Daniels, May, etc are infinity more talented than Jones. You can sense the "grass isn't always greener" play and they would rather go with audition #6.
I just keep circling back to this: what is this spell Jones has on some posters? What has he done to warrant such faith & goodwill?
He's. Not. A. Franchise. QB.
The sooner people here recognize that-& people in management/ownership-the better.
If I had to guess it's probably the draft day reaction. Jones was mocked by the national media, people looked at him as a joke to be drafted where he was. I don't feel any attachment to Jones, although I was happy for him after the Colts and Vikings wins, that wasn't nothing and it's something he earned here. I just don't think he carried the team, he was part of it. I'll never understand Jones being put in the same sentence as Eli.
But, I think a lot of fans hear all these QB prospects and they remember the Jones pick being mocked. Then they think, well what about Josh Rosen? Sam Darnold? Dwayne Haskins (RIP)? Baker Mayfield? Zach Wilson? Trey Lance?
Fans see all these other first round QB's who were highly touted and flamed out and think, well Jones already won a road playoff game. Why should I get excited about another first round QB?
I disagree with them, because I think you can only win a Super Bowl with an elite QB who makes everyone better, those guys are rare though. So, while I disagree I think that's what it is.
I also think fans don't like the idea of starting over at the position because they perceive it as punting on the next season.
They're the first people to say "I just want to see wins"
and wag a finger at the prospect of losing more games, yet embrace a total loser mindset of accepting the familiar 6 wins a year because there's a chance of failure if you try to do more, as if they haven't been watching failure for a decade.
Like I get why people like Jones personally...& I know I sound like a broken record with this shit...hard worker from all accounts. Doesn't show up teammates. Doesn't do anything off the field to disgrace the organization. Is accountable for his play. All of that's great. On the surface, if my daughter was 20 odd years older & brought him home to meet Mom & Dad, I'd be over the moon. He seems like a really good dude.
But he's not a franchise QB. Some poster here said he's a top 15 QB in the league. Has that poster started partying already for Thanksgiving? Good Lord.
Let Schoen & Dabs get a QB next spring & start clean. I really hope we're not having daily Jones threads a couple of years from now.
Next year, will all of you come on this site and admit you are wrong? Somehow I doubt it. You'll probably just pull a disappearing act ala Terps.
Your current handle will be banned by Christmas, for one thing. For another, it would take DJ a season and a half to put up those numbers. And that's IF he somehow managed to stay healthy that long.
What do you know about Terps leaving BBI last year? Based on your profile, you weren't even here for it.
Like I get why people like Jones personally...& I know I sound like a broken record with this shit...hard worker from all accounts. Doesn't show up teammates. Doesn't do anything off the field to disgrace the organization. Is accountable for his play.
This isn't directed as you, but I think what gets lost is that *most* players at that position are that way, and with Jones he's treated like a unicorn for it. There is no shortage of hard working good guy QBs in the NFL. They just don't get publicity and accolades for it.
I read comments and opinions here everyday that I don’t share. No one on BBI has the right or wrong answer. Decisions will be made without BBI poster input.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Here is the other side of the coin
So you could only name 3 other players in the league who can compare to Jones as a runner. Sounds like you proved my point for me.
I’m sure this argument makes sense to you, but since you seem fixated on single seasons, that also brings Kyler Murray into the mix. He’s got an 800+ rushing, 11 TD season on his resume.
The problem you have is that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, and your criteria for ranking Jones top-15 is so narrow that it’s almost entirely worthless on its own. It’s only because of Jones’s running ability that a case can even be made for him to be a top-15 NFL QB, and even then you need to ignore his entire body of work in the NFL.
The highest QBRating last Sunday of any QB since Eli in Sept 2018.
If you put credence in that stat, DeVito just played a game that was better than any Jones NFL performance.
Wow.
Numbers don't tell the whole story. There's the eye test too.
I would venture to say Jones' performance against the Vikings in the playoff last year was the best we've seen since Eli a decade ago.
If you enjoyed what happened last year and you backed Jones because of it.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
The people pretending they knew better only "thought better"
They didn't know.
We know this because these forums are littered with shit they said would happen that did not. Guessing correctly proves nothing.
Show me a media guy or GM that gets more than 50 correct.
You can't.
If the professionals working for teams worth billions struggle with this. Excuse me, if I am not impressed when the coin came up tails.
Maybe DeVito is lightning in a bottle.
Wouldn't it be great?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
Plenty of observers outside the Giants orbit thought giving Jones a big contract was dumb, and when they gave it to him they mocked the Giants. And since, they've been proven right. Have some humility and accept it was a fuck up. There were warning signs and you decided to ignore them. Doesn't mean you were correct.
If you enjoyed what happened last year and you backed Jones because of it.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
The people pretending they knew better only "thought better"
They didn't know.
We know this because these forums are littered with shit they said would happen that did not. Guessing correctly proves nothing.
Show me a media guy or GM that gets more than 50 correct.
You can't.
If the professionals working for teams worth billions struggle with this. Excuse me, if I am not impressed when the coin came up tails.
Maybe DeVito is lightning in a bottle.
Wouldn't it be great?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
The job of these highly paid professionals is to make the correct decisions, not ones defensible to the fan base or even ones that look smart to outside observers.
The Jones contract was a terrible risk-reward. I posted about this at the time. Paying $40 million for a guy who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since his rookie year, has never led a top ten offense, and has clear flaws in his game was an awful risk-reward. Schoen even said they expected him to take the next step to earn his money--he got that forecast wrong.
Did the Giants believe Jones would take the next step in the passing game? Based on Schoen's comments, they did. The base rate of bad passers (which Jones has been--even last season) developing into good passers after their fourth season is very, very low. Bad risk-reward.
Or do they not think the passing game is important? I'd point to literally every contender other than maybe the Ravens as evidence you need an elite passing attack to win championships. If you think the supporting cast, and not Jones, is the issue here, how were you acquiring those weapons? An over-30 often injured Waller was the solution? A rookie Hyatt was the solution?
All of this thinking was stupid and based on hope, not facts or hard data. You people seem to think the Jones contract working out was a coin flip. It wasn't. While you were stupidly predicting Jones would be getting MVP nods, many of us accurately dissected 2022 for what it was. The Giants did not and wrongly bet they could take the next step when it was obvious to many of us the Giants were so far off from contention. And that reality smacked us in the face in week one.
I said this at the time: this off-season was bad and gave us no path to contention in the near future. Fortunately, this awful season gives us a shot at an elite QB and a real shot of developing into a contender if we get that right.
At no point in his career, college or pro, did he play to a franchise QB level. Never.
By that rationale they may as well give DeVito $160M. Who's to say he won't become a great player?
I'm tired of hearing that $40 million is 'market rate'. Yeah, for guys who produce touchdowns and lead good offenses. Jones hasn't done either. It was a ridiculous contract the day it was signed.
I generally like Schoen, but if Gettleman made that move, many of us would be turning over tables. Let's be real.
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
If you enjoyed what happened last year and you backed Jones because of it.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
I want to challenge the reasonable part. If Jones had consecutive productive seasons, you probably have an argument. But he didn't. He had one year where the staff tailored an offense to fit Jones's limited skills and managed him beautifully. And kudos to Jones for being able to execute.
But the reasonable compensation was a Trans Tag or a Franchise Tag. This would have put the onus back on Team Jones to prove 2022 wasn't an outlier and see how he reacted when the league adjusted to how Jones played in 2022.
I've never seen anything like it in any sport. A guy who has accomplished so little has one of the most fanatically devoted followings you'll ever come across, and for what? A 2022 season they all trumpet where Jones threw for 3200 yards and 15 TDs?? A 2023 where he's been outplayed by a older journeyman backup and a UDFA rookie?
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
I’m pro Schoen and think the front office is improving
I generally like Schoen, but if Gettleman made that move, many of us would be turning over tables. Let's be real.
That's where I am. And that's why everyone should be skeptical of how Schoen handles this QB situation moving forward.
If he sticks with Jones, and uses the draft to bring in more infantry, the gloves really need to come off. We are in DEFCON 1 territory again.
And if decides to draft a QB in the lottery, why should we trust him to get it right? It will be the most important decision he's ever made as a GM since he paid Team Jones.
“ Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon?”
Because Jones hasn’t improved in his key deficiency areas since he arrived in NY, I’d put the chances of a late career upsurge to be nearly nil.
RE: I’m pro Schoen and think the front office is improving
If you enjoyed what happened last year and you backed Jones because of it.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
I want to challenge the reasonable part. If Jones had consecutive productive seasons, you probably have an argument. But he didn't. He had one year where the staff tailored an offense to fit Jones's limited skills and managed him beautifully. And kudos to Jones for being able to execute.
But the reasonable compensation was a Trans Tag or a Franchise Tag. This would have put the onus back on Team Jones to prove 2022 wasn't an outlier and see how he reacted when the league adjusted to how Jones played in 2022.
The people in the building, that knew him the best, gave him that contract. BW, this is the bridge we will never cross. The NYG's will never be treated like Madden. When Jones won that playoff game away, with a shit cast, he was getting a contact to come back based on what had transpired here for 10 years.
Morale and team chemistry matters. It was a done deal when Jones delivered on the field for all to see.
I will not even spend real energy or time on this with you.
It is pointless.
I would rather spend time talking to you about QB prospects. Neither one of us will convince the other in this. In the other topics, there is a lot of room for engagement.
But the the Giants lost the one score games instead of winning them and were picking in the top 5, Schoen wouldn’t have resigned Jones in my opinion. The record putting the Giants where they were in the draft cause Schoen to make a decision whether to bet on Jones or a bridge and he made the wrong bet.
I generally like Schoen, but if Gettleman made that move, many of us would be turning over tables. Let's be real.
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
Yes. Schoen was too quick to assume Jones was in the tier of Prescott/Cousins/Tannehill. The contract was fair if Jones could play at that level consistently, but he wasn't there. And if you'd ask Giant fans, they'd tell you all three of the players I mention above are overpaid.
I hope this is a hard lesson learned in self evaluation. And don't over emphasize a playoff win, because had the Giants drawn SF in the wildcard round they probably lose soundly.
But the the Giants lost the one score games instead of winning them and were picking in the top 5, Schoen wouldn’t have resigned Jones in my opinion. The record putting the Giants where they were in the draft cause Schoen to make a decision whether to bet on Jones or a bridge and he made the wrong bet.
The most interesting question mark of the offseason will be whether Schoen will double down on that bet.
But the the Giants lost the one score games instead of winning them and were picking in the top 5, Schoen wouldn’t have resigned Jones in my opinion. The record putting the Giants where they were in the draft cause Schoen to make a decision whether to bet on Jones or a bridge and he made the wrong bet.
The most interesting question mark of the offseason will be whether Schoen will double down on that bet.
Yes, the pressure has squarely moved from Jones to Schoen based on this season's events.
And NFW does Schoen not go QB in the draft early while waiting for Jones to rehab and redeem himself. It would be silly to throw away a promising GM career for a pipe-dream in DJ.
I've never seen anything like it in any sport. A guy who has accomplished so little has one of the most fanatically devoted followings you'll ever come across, and for what? A 2022 season they all trumpet where Jones threw for 3200 yards and 15 TDs?? A 2023 where he's been outplayed by a older journeyman backup and a UDFA rookie?
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
See, I don't even think Jones could even be successful elsewhere. He'll always be the same QB that he was here, no matter what team he's on.
He can give you a good game here or there like the Arizona game this year or the Minnesota playoff game. Yeah, that's cool and everything. He'll just always be that same QB: terrible pocket presence, fumbles, bad decisions, weak arm down the sidelines, injury prone.
In much more simpler terms: Daniel Jones is a back up QB.
I generally like Schoen, but if Gettleman made that move, many of us would be turning over tables. Let's be real.
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
And I would have defended it! At the very least I would have pushed the 'wait and see' approach :)
I've never seen anything like it in any sport. A guy who has accomplished so little has one of the most fanatically devoted followings you'll ever come across, and for what? A 2022 season they all trumpet where Jones threw for 3200 yards and 15 TDs?? A 2023 where he's been outplayed by a older journeyman backup and a UDFA rookie?
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
The DJFC and their willingness to bend over backwards for everything Jones…one of the weirdest things I have ever seen following this team.
The Giants are already idiots for what they paid Jones
So what do we do, fire Schoen on the spot?
Certainly we can do better than an idiot as GM.
No, he won't be fired for this. But he burned some personal capital for certain unless Mara gave him a "Get Out Of Jail free" card by influencing him heavy to contract Jones (which I don't fully subscribe to).
And we are doing better than an idiot at GM...we got rid of Gettleman.
Despite never being a big fan, I've been very patient
at times over the years, even going as far as to defend him when I felt posters were unfairly critical or cherry-picked stats to criticize him. With that said, I don't know how anyone can still say that he's the best starting QB option for the team moving forward. It's year 5 and he's still processing at a glacial pace, that's just who he is and he doesn't have the arm talent or arm strength to compensate for it.
I've never seen anything like it in any sport. A guy who has accomplished so little has one of the most fanatically devoted followings you'll ever come across, and for what? A 2022 season they all trumpet where Jones threw for 3200 yards and 15 TDs?? A 2023 where he's been outplayed by a older journeyman backup and a UDFA rookie?
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
The DJFC and their willingness to bend over backwards for everything Jones…one of the weirdest things I have ever seen following this team.
They love him. Sometimes people become so infatuated with a public figure they lose all grip with reality.
And we've got Philly in the division that are worlds ahead of NYG. And we debate Daniel Jones. What are we doing here?
I have felt this way with Jones since the end of 2020. I can't understand why we are spinning our wheels with Jones AND with Barkley. As Giants these guys have delivered worse football than we got in the Brown/Kanell/Graham years, which were always considered the worst for those of us that didn't experience the '70s.
I do not understand the connection to these players, and the fear of trying to improve. The fanbase and the media have lost all sense of what constitutes good football.
What I don't get is how you can watch Jones and think he can become a super bowl QB or even a legit top 10 QB?
Is there another example in NFL history or really even sports for that matter where a player was given such a long leash and magically turned it all around? At least with the same team who drafted him?
And we've got Philly in the division that are worlds ahead of NYG. And we debate Daniel Jones. What are we doing here?
I have felt this way with Jones since the end of 2020. I can't understand why we are spinning our wheels with Jones AND with Barkley. As Giants these guys have delivered worse football than we got in the Brown/Kanell/Graham years, which were always considered the worst for those of us that didn't experience the '70s.
I do not understand the connection to these players, and the fear of trying to improve. The fanbase and the media have lost all sense of what constitutes good football.
I get it with Barkley. Great college player from Penn State, really good pro who's fun to watch and very likeable and famous guy.
With Jones it baffles me. Don't you want to watch and enjoy a better product?
What I don't get is how you can watch Jones and think he can become a super bowl QB or even a legit top 10 QB?
Is there another example in NFL history or really even sports for that matter where a player was given such a long leash and magically turned it all around? At least with the same team who drafted him?
Somebody is going to say Phil Simms, I'll bet. They try to make that comparison all the time, no matter how many times people explain that it's not a good comparison.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
Bingo. All we hear from the DJFC is that his supporting cast sucks, we’ll, what if it’s Jones that is the one holding everyone back? This isn’t just speculation either. After years of “his WR’s don’t get any separation!”, this year, Giants WRs rank near the top of the league in separation. So they’ve moved on to pressure.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer and should be the starter, but the fact that he was able to produce under the same pressure rates Jones was seeing dispels the myth that a QB can’t produce under those conditions.
I think a lot of the Jones stuff is superficial…hard worker, good kid, looks like Eli, also played under Cutliffe. They wanted Eli 2.0 even though Jones isn’t near Eli’s talent.
The thought of doubling down or running it back with Jones in ‘24 is nauseating.
I've seen Daboll's frustration on the field. It's jumped off the screen. I actually think Daboll looks more relaxed with DeVito playing (maybe that reflects expectations).
The only thing I know about Schoen, however, is he saw enough in Jones last year to make a considerable investment in him. And then openly expressed that he thought Jones was the solution for the future. He seemed very pleased.
So, I just don't know.
The wildcard is Mara. If Mara feels they made this investment in Jones, and the entire team collapsed around Jones, then Mara may pull the ownership card this time and want Schoen to give Jones yet another tryout.
Like it or not, the Daniel Jones contract is a new metric. For the next several off seasons, when people discuss how good or bad a prospective contract may be, it will be discussed in terms of how "Daniel Jones contract" it is. You will hear the question, "Is it Daniel Jones bad?" I've already heard it on reputable podcasts. "It's not a great contract, but it's not Daniel Jones bad". It is a metric for incompetence, a short hand descriptor for as bad as it gets when signing a QB. The Giants got so little production for their $100M I think it is fair to say it might be the worst contract in NFL history. 30th ranked or lower in most metrics, 2 TDs, one win. You have to laugh, because if you don't laugh, you'd cry. And Joe Schoen now has this enormous anvil on his resume. Sadly, because I do like him.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
Like it or not, the Daniel Jones contract is a new metric. For the next several off seasons, when people discuss how good or bad a prospective contract may be, it will be discussed in terms of how "Daniel Jones contract" it is. You will hear the question, "Is it Daniel Jones bad?" I've already heard it on reputable podcasts. "It's not a great contract, but it's not Daniel Jones bad". It is a metric for incompetence, a short hand descriptor for as bad as it gets when signing a QB. The Giants got so little production for their $100M I think it is fair to say it might be the worst contract in NFL history. 30th ranked or lower in most metrics, 2 TDs, one win. You have to laugh, because if you don't laugh, you'd cry. And Joe Schoen now has this enormous anvil on his resume. Sadly, because I do like him.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
Even the best GM's make big mistakes. You just don't want to make big mistakes that you can't recover from. They can recover from the Jones contract but for example, Cleveland can't recover from the Watson contract -- they're stuck with him.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
Bingo. All we hear from the DJFC is that his supporting cast sucks, we’ll, what if it’s Jones that is the one holding everyone back? This isn’t just speculation either. After years of “his WR’s don’t get any separation!”, this year, Giants WRs rank near the top of the league in separation. So they’ve moved on to pressure.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer and should be the starter, but the fact that he was able to produce under the same pressure rates Jones was seeing dispels the myth that a QB can’t produce under those conditions.
That anyone still can’t see that is baffling.
I certainly have been one that has said in the past that expecting success from the qb the Giants OL and receivers would be a bit much. I am not sure about other fans who have said this, but sustained success is what I was referring to. The NFL has shown that any given Sunday anything can happen. This is not meant to defend Jones, I am all done with the Jones era (before the injuries hit this year). I don’t think DeVito’s single game of success has dispelled anything.
I can’t imagine that many fans would expect sustained success from the qb getting sacked and hit as much as DeVito did on Sunday. Yes, the qb played a big role in the hits, sacks, and pressure much like Jones has
Like it or not, the Daniel Jones contract is a new metric. For the next several off seasons, when people discuss how good or bad a prospective contract may be, it will be discussed in terms of how "Daniel Jones contract" it is. You will hear the question, "Is it Daniel Jones bad?" I've already heard it on reputable podcasts. "It's not a great contract, but it's not Daniel Jones bad". It is a metric for incompetence, a short hand descriptor for as bad as it gets when signing a QB. The Giants got so little production for their $100M I think it is fair to say it might be the worst contract in NFL history. 30th ranked or lower in most metrics, 2 TDs, one win. You have to laugh, because if you don't laugh, you'd cry. And Joe Schoen now has this enormous anvil on his resume. Sadly, because I do like him.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
Even the best GM's make big mistakes. You just don't want to make big mistakes that you can't recover from. They can recover from the Jones contract but for example, Cleveland can't recover from the Watson contract -- they're stuck with him.
I agree. I like Schoen. I hope he recovers. The Watson deal is bad. No doubt. But he was once close to elite and before he called it a season he played well in that last game. I don't know his medical outlook but if he comes back the same I could see him regaining his old form.
It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
One of the many things you said that would never happen and it did. Schoen wasn't going to sign him, Then he wasn't going XXXX money and he did.
Then you ran away.
Remember that?
No you here gloating because the of brutal start to the schedule and ridiculous injuries to the OL.
All pretending like you are the smart person and knew all along.
If only the Giants would listen to Terps.
You are just a volume posting troll, nothing more.
You want to rub someone's nose in the ground because he said Schoen shouldn't/wouldn't sign Daniel Jones?
And we all know now that he shouldn't have.
You are clueless.
I agree>
That is my point though. Terps has strong opinions on everything and he is wrong on at least half of them like everyone else.
So, he is going to be right often.
I am not impressed.
If he didn't run away before, I would have more tolerance.
I see a troll, sounds like you agree with Terps opinion on these things, so you defend him. That makes sense to me. Keep up the fight for the good ones. He deserves your support.
I don't defend or support posters. That is their own job.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Typically, there isn't a QB competition. Depending on the rook's talent and readiness he is put on a timetable. Some will start week 1. Some will be expected to take the reigns by week 6, or so. It's not a situation where Jones will be in a fair competition. They will transition to the rookie on his timeline, regardless if he can outplay Jones right away.
I give Eric, Terps, Arniefez and JonC(although Jon has to stay tighter lipped than I think he would like.) tons of credit for exposing the nepotism and the rot in the facility.
I think real change happened because of that. This is not even the second time I make that statement. I think out of all of them, it went to Terps head. His BBI minutes of fame, make him think more of himself than he is. I think he volume posts in threads(this is why he was reprimanded)the same shit over and over.
Terps got mad and left with his ball and bat. Because Terps is a troll, he probably has the highest reply rate of anyone on this site. He made a power play and Eric and the Mods didn't care. They never bow to big time time posters.
I love that.
He is back and I realize BBI was better when he was gone.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
RE: RE: RE: I don't defend or support posters. That is their own job.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
I agree that we do not. Daniel, Williams, Maye. I like Daniels, if I were a betting man I think we are going to move to draft Maye even if we win a few games.
Yeah, I don't know who they are going to pursue the most yet.
Not sure why that matters to even wager which one is their guy in November either. Too many variables are unknown as to draft process and the college season isn't even over for a while.
Nothing wrong with discussing them all as QB prospects though.
I think you're better than this, get your heart of the way of your brain.
Jones is done here, I get that. I don't like Terps at all. I think he is full of shit and when things didn't go his way.
He ran.
I have no respect for his opinion and he litters this board with it.
He is a troll.
Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Terps's departure last season. Trying to misrepresent that to satisfy your own disdain for him is just a bald-faced lie, and you know it.
As for the "volume posting" complaint, I think it's funny that you never seem to complain about the frequency with which DJ's most ardent defenders post on DJ threads.
I think you're better than this, get your heart of the way of your brain.
Jones is done here, I get that. I don't like Terps at all. I think he is full of shit and when things didn't go his way.
He ran.
I have no respect for his opinion and he litters this board with it.
He is a troll.
Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Terps's departure last season. Trying to misrepresent that to satisfy your own disdain for him is just a bald-faced lie, and you know it.
As for the "volume posting" complaint, I think it's funny that you never seem to complain about the frequency with which DJ's most ardent defenders post on DJ threads.
I know no such thing. I was in the thread that it blew up. He just being told it was too much and he was baby about it. It WAS the volume in which he was saying the same thing over and over. Pretty sure the mod used language close to that.
My opinion and it is strictly an opinion, he left after a bunch things he said was going to happen, the exact opposite happened. I don't believe the timing is a coincidence. He used the gentle reprimand from the mod as an excuse to run. He usually has a much tougher skin.
He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
We should replace Daniel Jones.
It is the same context used to explain away last year(easy schedule)
Jones had a brutal gauntlet without his LT. He was behind early and by big numbers. Eric that's waaaaay different from playing the COmmnders with a lead the entire game and how many turnovers?
How many turnovers did we produce in the first 5 games?
Anyone?
Do turnovers correlate strongly to winning? asking for a friend.
Jones is toast, he needed to win.
Jones failed.
There is some intellectual dishonesty going in regards to this situation, though.
Everyone just wants to be right, more important than enjoying Sunday to many.
It is all very gray.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't defend or support posters. That is their own job.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
I agree that we do not. Daniel, Williams, Maye. I like Daniels, if I were a betting man I think we are going to move to draft Maye even if we win a few games.
I wouldn't move to draft him. I'd hope to have a shot at Daniels or McCarthy. Any lower, then Nix.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't defend or support posters. That is their own job.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
I agree that we do not. Daniel, Williams, Maye. I like Daniels, if I were a betting man I think we are going to move to draft Maye even if we win a few games.
I wouldn't move to draft him. I'd hope to have a shot at Daniels or McCarthy. Any lower, then Nix.
Here's the thing. We should have moved for Mahomes. If they LOVE a guy, and really, really, believe, he is the one. Move heaven and earth and go get him, if QB hell is signing the wrong QB, what is drafting QB busts over and over? Is that QB purgatory or is that the abyss?
I do want better than Daniel Jones, I wasn't willing to throw him away until his body failed him. I believe an offense tailored to Jones would allow him to win. He was never going to be Aaron Rodgers or Herbert. Unlike many, I have NEVER tried to compare. I thought he had enough talent to win with. I hope the QB lottery works like everyone hopes.
It usually doesn't though.
I want DANIELS(Thanks BW, I have enjoyed watching his games(ones I can find enough of, don't like highlights)
It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
C'mon man. You paraded around BBI last season and the offseason policing the forum like FMIC calling all of us who dare question the Giants paying Jones a moron. Yet you are still saying it was a "good contract." The contract is a disaster.
All of us, including Terps, still hoped for the best this season. We are Giant fans. He isn't a troll just because you don't agree with his thoughts on Jones and the organization.
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Tommy Devito: 1 yr/$750K.
And both have played behind hideous OLs.
Hmmmmm.
A really terrible look after getting that big contract.
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
I think it would be great if gidie warned Eric for trolling here... ;)
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But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Just another brainless post here.
2019: 24
2020: 11
2021: 10
2022: 15
2023: 2
He's not productive.
Why is anyone bringing up Jones in the first place? They played a horrendous defensive team (the worst they’ve faced all season) and won the completely meaningless game. Congrats to Devito, but WGAF?
2019: 24
2020: 11
2021: 10
2022: 15
2023: 2
He's not productive.
And they’re highly likely to draft his replacement this offseason as long as they don’t mess it up with more pointless victories. So what’s your point?
Is this the only bad defense the Giants have played in four years?
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In comment 16295827 Giants86 said:
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But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Just another brainless post here.
A shit team played at their worst. The fans here sound like the Jets fans who were screamong for Mike White to QB the team. A QB who was cut 6 times. Lets see what he does against a very bad team who has game film on him and belicheck
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Like what can the Jones' apologist say now. How can you defend Jones after today
Why is anyone bringing up Jones in the first place? They played a horrendous defensive team (the worst they’ve faced all season) and won the completely meaningless game. Congrats to Devito, but WGAF?
Maybe because we paid him $160M, $90M guaranteed, and he's been outplayed by Tommy DeVito.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
This is the problem, as others have pointed out. It's not that DeVito and Taylor are "good." But there is no discernible difference between them and Jones.
And worse for Jones, DeVito already has 3 times the TD passes.
Is this the only bad defense the Giants have played in four years?
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Jones era is over. Let’s move on.
If you don't like the thread, move along.
Why would you think that? He hasn't done so since 2019.
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Jones era is over. Let’s move on.
Have some perspective. The Minnesota game was a nice moment for Jones against an atrocious opponent.
Oh cmon. He had a chance to throw 3/4 TDs in games. He threw 2 in 6 games. At some point you have to believe the performance.
He's had a lot of good games against Washington - true.
And now so has DeVito.
I seriously struggle to think what Jones does better than DeVito as a passer.
Have some perspective. The Minnesota game was a nice moment for Jones against an atrocious opponent.
It was also a playoff game, not a meaningless November matchup against a team who will fire their head coach sometime between Friday and January.
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In comment 16295827 Giants86 said:
Quote:
But we beat Washington who we always beat!
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Have we not played Washington the past four years?
Yeah. Jones usually beats them and WASH has been a superb defensive team two of the previous three seasons. This year, they’re quite possibly the second worst defense in football.
Just another brainless post here.
Your repetitive posts prove that you know jack about football.
Do you want to go back over the Minnesota's defensive stats last year?
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in one season and be labelled "atrocious." Maybe one day. Probably not.
Do you want to go back over the Minnesota's defensive stats last year?
Should we go over Washington's from this year?
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But let’s not go there.
Oh cmon. He had a chance to throw 3/4 TDs in games. He threw 2 in 6 games. At some point you have to believe the performance.
So we aren’t allowed to conjure up DJ’s career numbers against Washington but we’re fine with people extrapolation today’s performance to conclude that the two qbs are near equals. Cool.
I guess we’re supposed to just buy in that jones will never play better again. That’s the prevailing notion around here. Am I allowed to disagree? Don’t want to rock the apple cart…
Ps I still want to draft a qb if he’s available so save it.
Do you want to go back over the Minnesota's defensive stats last year?
Should we go over Washington's from this year?
Sure. We can clearly spell out why two mediocre QBs did well against two piss poor pass defenses.
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In comment 16295901 bw in dc said:
Do you want to go back over the Minnesota's defensive stats last year?
Should we go over Washington's from this year?
Sure. We can clearly spell out why two mediocre QBs did well against two piss poor pass defenses.
One was a meaningless regular season game, one was a road Playoff game.
It would be kabuki theater, so what's the point?
I'd like to see the media ask some tough questions to Schoen in 2 weeks about this. They won't get off the hook easy, the $47M cap hit next year and $22M dead cap charge in 2025 is going to eat into that rookie QB contract window and be a very tough pill to swallow.
One was a meaningless regular season game, one was a road Playoff game.
Today wasn't a meaningless game for Washington. A win would have kept them right in striking distance for a playoff berth.
Look, this isn't like the late 80s when Montana would get hurt and Young would fill in and do very well.
This is a situation where one average QB (with over five years of experience) got hurt, and an undrafted rookie replaced him and played a good game.
jones would have fumbled at least 3 times.
It should be clear to everyone at this point what Jones has been from day one.
Not everyone…
its a must.
i dont care what anyone says.
we have one in devito.
the draft will likely produce another.
jones is still on teh roster.
we should resign taylor.
go into camp with 3-4 QBs.
They made a two year deal which was clearly a “We like you, but we don’t love you” contract. It didn’t work out. They have a chance (as long as they don’t fuck it up) to get Caleb, Drake, or Daniels in this draft. They didn’t exactly hitch the wagon to Jones.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
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The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
It's no coincidence he was MIA last year. He's a miserable POS who likes to complain, and hates whenever they have success. Especially when it's someone who leads them that he doesn't like.
See Jones. Or Plaxico.
its a must.
i dont care what anyone says.
we have one in devito.
the draft will likely produce another.
jones is still on teh roster.
we should resign taylor.
go into camp with 3-4 QBs.
Teams don't usually keep three QBs on the 53-man roster. If DeVito flashes enough, he will replace Taylor next year. But that's a big if.
I wouldn't bring Taylor back. He's too injury-prone for a back-up.
No
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you need 3 QBs in todays nfl.
its a must.
i dont care what anyone says.
we have one in devito.
the draft will likely produce another.
jones is still on teh roster.
we should resign taylor.
go into camp with 3-4 QBs.
Teams don't usually keep three QBs on the 53-man roster. If DeVito flashes enough, he will replace Taylor next year. But that's a big if.
I wouldn't bring Taylor back. He's too injury-prone for a back-up.
i think with whats happening around the nfl and injuries it will be a thing.
they bought back the 3rd QB game day active rule.
the trend will reverse imo.
theres going to be a big investment imo in backup qbs around the league.
Pom pom wavers. The problem is that a mod was one of them and ran him off the boards for no reason.
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The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
He's also the asshole who preaches to draft a QB every year, but preemptively bashes Schoen for even thinking about drafting a QB this year, because that would be "giving up" on Jones after 5 games into his contract.
But of course, he ignores Philly drafting Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract.
He's all about himself. Always has been. He's been wrong many more times he's right. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating. He's a fucking caricature at this point.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
hes clearly the best G.
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But Jones can't even make the throw that Devito did on the first Barkley TD.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
Maybe he did once but I'd have to go back and see when. I don't remember any similar TD passes like that. Regardless of that everything else is totally on point. This game shows you that you can still be successful getting pummeled.
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But Jones can't even make the throw that Devito did on the first Barkley TD.
He CAN make it, and did at one point. But he doesn't anymore.
Look, this isn't me bashing Jones. I've been agnostic about him for quite some time. But at some point, you recognize he is what he is. And he simply isn't productive enough throwing the football. Daboll and Kafka schemed him into having some success last year based off his legs. But teams figured that out and Jones couldn't adjust (the OL didn't help either).
Now you have the neck and the ACL with a guy who is at his best when he runs?
Then green as grass DeVito throws three touchdowns in a game where he is sacked nine times? This is a disaster for Jones. There is no way to spin this.
Everything you say prior to the final three sentences is accurate. WGAF what Tommy Devito did against the worst defense the Giants have faced in 2023? And what on earth is the connection to Daniel Jones’ situation or performance? There is none.
We heard that Judge constantly yelled at him to not take chances. Perhaps that scarred him. Maybe he's been hit too much. Maybe he just has problems reading defenses.
But look at his TD totals since 2019.
Again, DeVito didn't get drafted. Jones was the 6th pick in the draft. Jones got the snaps in camp and practice, followed by Taylor. DeVito got a handful.
Jones has played a bunch of shit defenses in the past four years, teams with the 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, and 32nd ranked defenses.
I'm not saying DeVito is an NFL starter. But he just did something that Jones hasn't been able to do. And in a game where he got sacked nine times.
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It's relevant to bring up because DeVito did something today that Jones hasn't been able to do in four years. You get that, right?
Is this the only bad defense the Giants have played in four years?
The Giants scored 31 points in a playoff victory last season. Did you say to yourself afterwards, “But he only threw two touchdowns. If he would’ve thrown three then that would’ve been really impressive.” Of course not because WGAF?
Have some perspective. This was a nice moment for Devito against an atrocious defensive opponent. Making an asinine comparison to Jones is just pointless.
The Jones era is over. Let’s move on.
So Jones performing against a bad defense doesn’t matter but you use it to knock DeVito down a peg?
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
DeVito signed a one-year contract.
DeVito and Tyrod played in the same shit situation as Jones. He was outplayed by both.
This is kinda a weak thread, but I almost expected it.
DeVito all has more TD throws than DJ, and has played less games.
I like both guys - I campaigned for DJ but it's time to change. I also posted numerous times how much DeVito impressed me in training camp. I think he could be serviceable as a #2.
But I think we can go to a lot of places in what DJ has accomplished that DeVito most likely never achieves.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
Jones deal is anything but reasonable. It’s a ticking time bomb contract. Was the day it was signed despite what some tried to pontificate. It’s even worse now not due to any ones fault due to injury again but it is what it is, and presents a conundrum in a year where there has to be either a parting of ways or Jones has to sign a team friendly deal or Giants pay out more guaranteed money to ease up the cap hit.
Jones is ridiculously expensive and not very productive.
Tell me more about the Colts and Vikings defense last year and how much stock was put into those wins.
hmmmmmm.....now there's a thread we could start.
As easy as it seems now to assume the Giants brass will find Jones's replacement in the draft, I suspect there will be a period in early Spring when we hear how great Jones is recovering.
I think with some time and contemplation, dumping Jones will prove harder for the Giants than many of us fans wish.
The best, even if wildly unlikely outcome, is for Jones to be the answer. He's locked into a reasonable deal.
This is where the Giants need to remember days like today.
DeVito signed a one-year contract.
That's true, but he's an exclusive rights free agent and the Giants retain his rights for the league minimum.
The cap sites have him under contract on 2024. Which might presume he's accepted those terms for next year?
Jones deal is anything but reasonable. It’s a ticking time bomb contract. Was the day it was signed despite what some tried to pontificate. It’s even worse now not due to any ones fault due to injury again but it is what it is, and presents a conundrum in a year where there has to be either a parting of ways or Jones has to sign a team friendly deal or Giants pay out more guaranteed money to ease up the cap hit.
Jones is ridiculously expensive and not very productive.
I don't think a big part of the bolded entry makes much sense.
Never-the-less, my point is the best case scenario for the Giants brass is for Jones to turn it around be a good player. If here were to do so, he would be on a reasonable contract.
I think you're missing the part that I don't think that will happen.
So Jones performing against a bad defense doesn’t matter but you use it to knock DeVito down a peg?
We’re comparing the NFL postseason to a meaningless November game between two bad football teams?
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So Jones performing against a bad defense doesn’t matter but you use it to knock DeVito down a peg?
We’re comparing the NFL postseason to a meaningless November game between two bad football teams?
You’re missing the point.
These weirdos are obsessed with him
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The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
They made a two year deal which was clearly a “We like you, but we don’t love you” contract. It didn’t work out. They have a chance (as long as they don’t fuck it up) to get Caleb, Drake, or Daniels in this draft. They didn’t exactly hitch the wagon to Jones.
Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
Jones has the 15th highest guaranteed money among current quarterback deals in that new contract.
If this situation were happening on another team we'd all be laughing our asses off at such a stupid handling of the QB position.
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Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
Jones has the 15th highest guaranteed money among current quarterback deals in that new contract.
Are you honestly arguing they gave him a good contract?
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In comment 16296051 MyNameIsMyName said:
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Giving a shitty player 40mil isn’t saying i love you?
Jones has the 15th highest guaranteed money among current quarterback deals in that new contract.
Are you honestly arguing they gave him a good contract?
Lol.. he also has the 15th highest guaranteed money all time in the NFL. Tommy DeVito is outplaying him. Talk about egg on the face of the front office.
Lol.. he also has the 15th highest guaranteed money all time in the NFL.
That’s not even true.
You think the difference between the 15th best and 40th best is that big? It isn't. We're seeing there's little of any difference between Jones, Taylor, and DeVito.
speedy, jvm, shockey, and the rest of you boys following me around... Daniel Jones = Tommy DeVito = Malik Willis = Nick Mullens, and so on. The only difference is the contract.
You wanted this shit sandwich after the Viking game, and you got it. Now we're all eating it.
You think the difference between the 15th best and 40th best is that big? It isn't. We're seeing there's little of any difference between Jones, Taylor, and DeVito.
speedy, jvm, shockey, and the rest of you boys following me around... Daniel Jones = Tommy DeVito = Malik Willis = Nick Mullens, and so on. The only difference is the contract.
You wanted this shit sandwich after the Viking game, and you got it. Now we're all eating it.
Malik Willis isn’t even in the same class as the other names you listed and you would have spent the 7th overall pick on him if not the 5th.
And people have been saying we wouldn’t let DeVito throw the ball!
The Colts-Vikings games last
Plus once in 2020 and 2019
But has 22 times had zero TDs
He has 11 zero TD games in last 2 seasons
He had 5 of his 1+ TD games in 2019 so just 6 games of 2+ games since
People need to get over the Jones contract. He earned his mediocre contract by showing promise for 3 years and then playing well enough to drag a shitty team into the playoffs last season. The Giants were not wrong about Jones, they were wrong about the players surrounding him. The organization ruined Jones just like they ruined a two time SB MVP entering the prime of his career.
The Jones Era is over. The Giants will move on and draft another QB and unless the Giants fix the OL, he will fail as well. The Giants need to look at Philly and Dallas who have decent QB's sitting behind functional offensive lines. Until the Giants fix the OL, it does not matter who is the QB.
Last year while the Giants went 7-2, Saquon had 919 yds 6 TDs and a 2 pt conversion that literally won a game and we often direct snapped to him. The Giants had a 4Q comeback where they didn’t complete a pass but yeah but yeah Jones “dragged” the team into the playoffs
The same things that doomed Eli, are the same things that ensured the Jones could never succeed.
Interesting logic.
But has 22 times had zero TDs
He has 11 zero TD games in last 2 seasons
He had 5 of his 1+ TD games in 2019 so just 6 games of 2+ games since
That disregards his running TD’s. A TD is a TD. Absolutely we need to improve at QB, and while DeVito performed admirably for a rookie UDFA he is not a long term solution as a starter.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
And people have been saying we wouldn’t let DeVito throw the ball!
And since people love to point out how was this year’s WAS defense is, here’s a reminder that in 2019 they were so banged up at that point and publicly feuding with Josh Norman so they were signing guys off the street to play the Giants. Jones’s rookie season was based largely on 4 games against horrible defenses.
Bucs, Lions, Jets, Redskins- 17 TDs (15 pass, 2 run), 4 TOs
Other 8 starts: 9 TDs, 19 TOs.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
You're right. We need to be consistent. Tommy DeVito needs a 5 year evaluation period as Ginats starting quarterback so we can see what we've got in him.
Offensive success today comes from air yardage. Rushing yardage is a very secondary success metric.
This argument rests on a view of an NFL that no longer exists.
Jones led a bad roster to the playoffs, won a road playoff game, until they were beat down by a superior team. He had a really rough start to this season because of a lot of factors, including his play.
There's a difference between someone like that, and then someone like Malik Willis, who not only is a complete bust and will never play or start in the NFL again, but literally does not play because he cannot throw the football, which is what you need to do in order to play quarterback.
Answer: when you’re losing an argument, a good strategy is to wave your hands around and point to something totally irrelevant.
But carry on.
Answer: when you’re losing an argument, a good strategy is to wave your hands around and point to something totally irrelevant.
Actually I was responding to his post where he mentioned that Daniel Jones = Malik Willis.
So are you saying that he is the one posting irrelevant things? I'm confused.
Offensive success today comes from air yardage. Rushing yardage is a very secondary success metric.
This argument rests on a view of an NFL that no longer exists.
It's funny, because rushing TD's are usually dismissed by Giant fans when it's referencing other QB's. I've seen people use this as a knock on Lamar Jackson. I'm sure BBI thinks nothing of Justin Fields. But in the context of Daniel Jones, it's always, "don't forget the rushing TD's!"
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
You’re completely ignoring the point as usual. We’ve gotten the whole Daniel Jones experience in one season with three different quarterbacks. Struggling to score against good teams, and having breakout games against some of the worst defenses in the league.
If you can’t see how much of an indictment that is on the Jones contract, you can’t be helped.
Looking forward to your reaction if the Giants don't take a quarterback in round 1.
So you are saying Daniel Jones is about as good as our undrafted 3rd string rookie QB in his second career start?
Can we afford TWO $40M/year quarterbacks on this roster?
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
This isn't hard to understand Eric.
We heard that Judge constantly yelled at him to not take chances. Perhaps that scarred him. Maybe he's been hit too much. Maybe he just has problems reading defenses.
But look at his TD totals since 2019.
Again, DeVito didn't get drafted. Jones was the 6th pick in the draft. Jones got the snaps in camp and practice, followed by Taylor. DeVito got a handful.
Jones has played a bunch of shit defenses in the past four years, teams with the 28th, 29th, 30th, 31st, and 32nd ranked defenses.
I'm not saying DeVito is an NFL starter. But he just did something that Jones hasn't been able to do. And in a game where he got sacked nine times.
I think this sums the situation very well. The damage to DJ is cumulative; the mental stuff from multiple HC and OCs and the hits from all the sacks.
Looking forward to your reaction if the Giants don't take a quarterback in round 1.
Because it is. It’s an indictment on all the excuses you have made for 5 years.
The only trick you have is being person on this wrong the most. It’s time to let your Daniel Jones lust go, you’ll be better off.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
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But let’s not go there.
So you are saying Daniel Jones is about as good as our undrafted 3rd string rookie QB in his second career start?
Can we afford TWO $40M/year quarterbacks on this roster?
I hate when people say THIS!!!! But this.
This is the case for staying financially lean at QB. And yes, Jones won a road playoff game. He earned that and it isn't nothing. But, it wasn't just him. Barkley was fantastic in the game as was the entire coaching staff.
But, the contract now is when you see the problems and the lack of talent gap. It's much better to stay financially lean at QB until you have someone playing the position that can win despite unfavorable factors on the roster. It needs to be perfect for Jones, that isn't worth what he's being paid.
cosmic, I stick to my opinions and haven't wavered on Jones being a pretty good quarterback.
A shitty year due to a lot of reasons (poor play, injuries, really tough schedule to start, etc) is not going to change my mind.
If they move on from him, I couldn't care less. I hope the next QB is better than he is.
But what I do think is that the Giants have had a lot more issues with the team and the QB is not at the top of that list. But hey - I get it.
I've posted this many times, but it's worth repeating.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
Should Devito go on scholarship now as well and get 5 years (and counting) like Jones got?
I've posted this many times, but it's worth repeating.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
Only two QBs are worthy to QB the Giants. Patrick Mahomes and Daniel Jones... maybe Joe Burrow is a distant third.
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Figured this might happen. Jones had 3 total TDs against Arizona, 4 total TDs against Indy.
I know it's super cool to be knocking Jones right now but we do need to count the rushing TDs that occur instead of the passing ones, which still count as a touchdown last time I checked.
I also thought that we shouldn't overreact to one performance? Isn't that what you guys said we can't do for Jones? Didn't you guys say that Jones playing well against Washington doesn't mean anything?
Be consistent.
Should Devito go on scholarship now as well and get 5 years (and counting) like Jones got?
Great minds...
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
You keep posting this, and yet I've seen at least a half dozen posts explaining to you the circumstances.
You should stop posting this inaccurate, lie.
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It's s funny, because rushing TD's are usually dismissed by Giant fans when it's referencing other QB's. I've seen people use this as a knock on Lamar Jackson. I'm sure BBI thinks nothing of Justin Fields. But in the context of Daniel Jones, it's always, "don't forget the rushing TD's!"
I've posted this many times, but it's worth repeating.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
Mahomes is also used plenty from that Tampa superbowl as what happens to a QB with a bad/injured OL.
I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
If you take full week of BBI posts, you'll hear every QB besides Mahomes sucks.
Only two QBs are worthy to QB the Giants. Patrick Mahomes and Daniel Jones... maybe Joe Burrow is a distant third.
Not even Mahomes could do anything behind this line. Remember the Super Bowl.
It really took the great Tommy DeVito.
I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Yes you should because a number of posters have told you exactly what happened.
I'm sure that's just a coincidence.
Yeah. That's right he didn't stick around. Forgot about that. I did.
Because, who cares?
Hijack it? This thread was made about Jones lol.
Jesus man you’re such a loser it’s not even funny. You’re the one who brought my name up in a thread the other day unsolicited. The holidays are coming up would you like me to buy you a mirror?
Wanna bet?
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
They count the same. But put me in the camp of the QB relying on his arm to score TDs than simply taking off and running for them because he is uncomfortable doing it with his head/arm. Less collisions too.
So the 22 touchdowns he was responsible for last year, puts him at what, 20th in the NFL among QBs?
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
The reason it matters is because the rushing stats just aren’t sustainable. Lamar Jackson is the extreme outlier and even Baltimore has been trying desperately to keep him in the pocket more. Jones is now physically compromised and we’ve seen games in the past where he was banged up and they had to adjust the game plan to keep him out of harms way. We also seen teams this season adjust to his running and took it away, forcing him to throw. The results were putrid.
Rushing TDs do in fact count as much as passing TDs. But it’s much more complicated than that. Having your QB rely on rushing the ball is not a sound long term plan. We’ve seen the results when the rushing isn’t there…
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And the Giants?
Answer: when you’re losing an argument, a good strategy is to wave your hands around and point to something totally irrelevant.
Actually I was responding to his post where he mentioned that Daniel Jones = Malik Willis.
So are you saying that he is the one posting irrelevant things? I'm confused.
In the least surprising manner possible, the point of the Malik Willis conversation went soaring over your empty head. The point was that teams are better off failing fast and pivoting while a QB is still cheap than to extend the pain and bet on hope, and pay full retail price for the privilege to do so.
If the Giants had Willis instead of Jones, they'd be in the exact same place on the field this year, and would be facing far less cap consequences to replace Willis with a new rookie QB. Willis is not as good as Jones, and no one has suggested that he is. The thing is, it doesn't matter that DJ is better than Willis, because neither is good enough. But at least Willis doesn't cost $40M AAV to be inadequate.
My only question is whether your obtuseness is intentional.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
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started six games this year. He did not throw a TD in five of those games.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
When were they actually equated?
1) Would you rather have Malik Willis and 43M
Or
2) Evan Neal and Daniel Jones
I'd take number one in a heartbeat.
What I'm doing is calling out goalpost moving.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
1) Would you rather have Malik Willis and 43M
Or
2) Evan Neal and Daniel Jones
I'd take number one in a heartbeat.
If that's the case then you're going to be very disappointed when the Giants stick with Neal as their RT next year.
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
What I'm doing is calling out goalpost moving.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
How come you continue to repeat that only 2023 is forming people’s opinions on wanting to cut bait on Jones? Do you actually thing people aren’t including 2020 and 2021 in their evaluations just because you don’t?
1) Would you rather have Malik Willis and 43M
Or
2) Evan Neal and Daniel Jones
I'd take number one in a heartbeat.
If that's the case then you're going to be very disappointed when the Giants stick with Neal as their RT next year.
Nope. So long as Neal doesn't get beat like a bag, I'll be ecstatic.
What I'm doing is calling out goalpost moving.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
I absolutely admit to presuming Jones would continue his poor play in 2022 and the Giants would move on from him.
Looks like I missed it by a year. And now it's going to cost us a bundle in salary cap space.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
Pretty rich coming from you after the victory lap(s) you took when Jones got that insane contract.
Don't pretend people weren't calling that a mistake in real time. It's not hindsight just because you ignored it while crowing about how you were right about the Giants paying him.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
The one play I liked from DeVito was the 4th down where he avoided the sack and threw the ball away. Then, the Giants defense sacked what's his face QB on 3rd down. Giants then went up 14-3. I bet ya Jones takes a sack on that 4th down.
But remember when the Giants went years without having a QB throw for 300 yards in a game? They had QBs like Brown, Graham, Kanell.
Then Collins starts and he throws for 300 yards and three touchdowns against the Jets. Just like that. Same team, same coaches.
..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
What I'm doing is calling out goalpost moving.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
If you go back to the thread that announced DJ's contract, you'll see all the same posters that you think are moving the goalposts were saying then, in real time, that they wished the Giants had tagged DJ instead. How is it moving the goalposts if those posters voiced concern at the time and now have had their concerns at least partially validated?
This is just another example of you desperately seeking an echo chamber for your own views and then pretending that the echoes were the only voices.
Daniel Jones is a shitty NFL starting QB. If he's your QB, you need a QB. And yet he is now a very expensive player. He is a huge net negative in a way that Malik Willis (or any other backup you want to name) is not.
I firmly believe that his shot was if SHurmur stayed and was able to coach him up but I think Judge mindfucked him. He's just too conservative and wont take chances. He'll be here next year while he rehabs but the Giants need to take a QB.
What I'm doing is calling out goalpost moving.
Most people on this board, including you, thought the Giants would go 3-14 and move on from Jones after the 2022 season.
When the opposite happened, Giants brass made a call that was going to pay Jones for what amounts to 2 seasons. I'd say most were pretty happy with that.
Now you guys are ready to jump ship again after a shitty year where the team was a mess and he tore his knee. And a lot of you are saying things like "told ya so" when you were celebrating the Giants run last year.
Plenty more saw the big picture.
One read, then run was not going to be enough.
Signing Daniel Jones was a smart decision and I believe he will lead the Giants to compete for a championship.
- how much of a sample size do you need from Jones? It baffles me how people can even attempt to defend him on here. He’s not a good quarterback.
- if Jones was healthy and UFA this offseason, does he a get a starting job? That answer is no.
- stop saying this was some great 2 year contract that doesn’t hurt. It’s a bad contract that will hurt this team badly for 3 seasons. It will also eat in to the advantages of having a rookie QB for his first 2 seasons if they draft one.
- Jones can’t play. I have no idea what else needs to happen to come to this conclusion. Admit the mistake and move on.
This Jones played scared all year. That to me is the big difference with Devito. He's not afraid.
But remember when the Giants went years without having a QB throw for 300 yards in a game? They had QBs like Brown, Graham, Kanell.
Then Collins starts and he throws for 300 yards and three touchdowns against the Jets. Just like that. Same team, same coaches.
Didn't Collins start some games (or a game) for the Giants in 1999 before that Jets game?
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..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
Red zone QB play matters a lot. It's arguably the hardest part of the job.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
I agree partly but what I think really amplifies the Jones disconnect is that he has a cluster of faults that all occur before the ball leaves his hand. Poor pocket movement, poor reading the field and a slow release. I don’t think he’s a particularly accurate passer but the lack of good results is really caused by a cluster of problems in the pocket.
If you’re just watching the ball, which is the natural default for a lot of fans (me included), you won’t see the problems.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
You might have missed the game where we was pressured 39 times. But, maybe you watched that one.
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Jones looks the part... He's big, fast, accurate and throws a very nice ball. All of those traits, combined with the state of the OLine, make it difficult to discard him.
The problem is, after many years and multiple regimes trying to find the right pieces to put around him, he's still not raising the level of those around him. Now, seeing backups elevate this offense from non-functional to functional tells you all you need to know about Daniel Jones. Jones has the tools, but he's missing the processer.
Hopefully this chain of events triggers the light bulb in John Mara's head, like it has for so many of the Jones defenders.
I agree partly but what I think really amplifies the Jones disconnect is that he has a cluster of faults that all occur before the ball leaves his hand. Poor pocket movement, poor reading the field and a slow release. I don’t think he’s a particularly accurate passer but the lack of good results is really caused by a cluster of problems in the pocket.
If you’re just watching the ball, which is the natural default for a lot of fans (me included), you won’t see the problems.
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..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
But remember when the Giants went years without having a QB throw for 300 yards in a game? They had QBs like Brown, Graham, Kanell.
Then Collins starts and he throws for 300 yards and three touchdowns against the Jets. Just like that. Same team, same coaches.
Jim Fassel turned the play calling over to Sean Payton that game. Must of had a lapse in my bad memory to remember that...
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but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
They count the same. But put me in the camp of the QB relying on his arm to score TDs than simply taking off and running for them because he is uncomfortable doing it with his head/arm. Less collisions too.
I remember vividly the beginning of Collins’ Giants career. It was viscerally exciting. The team went from being a super conservative “ eke out the win” team to having a gunslinger at QB who had the arm to complete any pass. When he was on, the opposing D was on its back heel at all times.
That’s what even a flawed yet talented QB will do for your offense. Its worth recalling that 1999 season for Giants fans beaten down by a decade of losing and Jones’ black hole of QBing.
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In comment 16296312 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
Maybe the Giant Defense played a bit more inspired to cause some turnovers knowing they had a QB on the field that was able to score a few TDs for a change.
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We were told he would produce more as the offensive scheme opened up and became more vertical. His proponents were certain he improved enough to handle the job.
Instead, the opposite happened. He regressed. His numbers were abysmal. He demonstrated he cannot succeed in a modern, vertical offense that Daboll and 85% of rhe NFL wants to play.
You might have missed the game where we was pressured 39 times. But, maybe you watched that one.
Do you honestly still believe in Jones long term? You 100% want to stick with Daniel Jones and build around him as your starting quarterback? No doubts or worries at all???
Or are you just taking the opposite side of an argument? I'm perplexed by your continued defense of Jones.
So if Jones was the answer last year and it was a good decision to sign him, there's no reason to lose faith in him, right?
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He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
DeVito's first couple of weeks were bad. But, the coaches also made it painfully obvious that they weren't letting him throw. People took the evidence of DeVito being sacked as, once again, the OL is THE problem, and that is that, with a minor of nobody to throw to. Now, DeVito is getting all the practice time as a starter and he's still taking sacks...but he's also making plays.
Nobody is mistaking DeVito for anything more than is, which is a nice story who might make a decent backup moving forward. But, his performance does put a spotlight on their QB play and offense overall. It doesn't look good for Jones.
What would really be interesting is what the Giants would do this offseason if Jones didn't have a gross guaranteed salary for 2024. Would they cut him, if they could?
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why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
This isn't hard to understand Eric.
Terps has absolutely been more accurate in his assessment of this team than most, and certainly you. He left this site because one of the lead "I put my head in the sand and attack people who don't prey to Jones" guys is a moderator on this site who threatened to ban him because he was correct and the mod didn't want to hear it.
This site has a section of fans who are fairly smart, but are just too emotional about Jones to think clearly.
But stop with the "Terps went into hiding." This board started to become state sponsored media where only positive Jones news was allowed last year. A lot of us who had different opinions disappeared because of abhorrent moderator behavior.
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He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
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In comment 16296334 Ron Johnson said:
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In comment 16296312 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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.
..... Unless they were +6 in turnovers and put on a short field 5 times
This is precious. A desperate attempt to minimize DeVitos performance.
18-26 (70%), 245 yards, 3 TDs and a passer rating of 137.7.
Everyone on the planet knows that it gets much tougher to execute the further down the field you are. Things are much more compact and hectic. So by you claiming he only performed because of field position is actually giving him MORE credit. Though I’m not surprised this flew over your head. Twisting yourself into a pretzel to find something, anything to dismiss the performance is laughable. It’s embarrassing. Defend Jones at all costs but then turn around and discredit a rookie UFA making his 2nd start, lol. Sounds about right…
Maybe the Giant Defense played a bit more inspired to cause some turnovers knowing they had a QB on the field that was able to score a few TDs for a change.
I mean we've all seen the Giants quit before in hopeless situations. There's always some truth in players playing more inspired when they smell a win vs knowing they don't have a chance.
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In comment 16295959 Eric from BBI said:
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why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
Actually, he hasn't been. And you saying this (again) just leads everyone to think it to be true.
Terps spent 3 years saying Jones was horrible and "not an NFL starter". The 1 year where he played well and started to put it together, first year under a new regime and competent coaching, and went to the playoffs with a pretty rough roster and made a nice run, Terps disappeared from the board.
He magically returned when the team had a shitty year through the first 2 months.
This isn't hard to understand Eric.
Terps has absolutely been more accurate in his assessment of this team than most, and certainly you. He left this site because one of the lead "I put my head in the sand and attack people who don't prey to Jones" guys is a moderator on this site who threatened to ban him because he was correct and the mod didn't want to hear it.
This site has a section of fans who are fairly smart, but are just too emotional about Jones to think clearly.
But stop with the "Terps went into hiding." This board started to become state sponsored media where only positive Jones news was allowed last year. A lot of us who had different opinions disappeared because of abhorrent moderator behavior.
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started six games this year. He did not throw a TD in five of those games.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
Like 75% of Jones career passing tds have come against some of the worst defenses in the league.
So if Jones was the answer last year and it was a good decision to sign him, there's no reason to lose faith in him, right?
That's something that I can't get past. We're seeing in Technicolor that NO ONE (even Ryan) really believed in Jones. If you believed in Jones coming into this season, surely five games wasn't going to be enough to change your mind that the Giants had their QB for the long term, right?
The fucking ink on the contract is still wet, and everyone wants to draft Drake Maye.
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In comment 16296291 HardTruth said:
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He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
I believed in Jones and still do.
That being said, I couldn't care less who they draft. If they think Maye or Williams is going to transform the franchise, by all means take the guy.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
Looking forward to your reaction come draft time.
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but put me in the camp that if a QB - whether it be Jones or not - has 3 or more TDs accounted for in a game, I dont care how he does it. Two passing or 1 rushing or vice versa. TDs are TDs.
There's no difference if Jones runs for a 10 yard TD or throws for one.
The reason it matters is because the rushing stats just aren’t sustainable. Lamar Jackson is the extreme outlier and even Baltimore has been trying desperately to keep him in the pocket more. Jones is now physically compromised and we’ve seen games in the past where he was banged up and they had to adjust the game plan to keep him out of harms way. We also seen teams this season adjust to his running and took it away, forcing him to throw. The results were putrid.
Rushing TDs do in fact count as much as passing TDs. But it’s much more complicated than that. Having your QB rely on rushing the ball is not a sound long term plan. We’ve seen the results when the rushing isn’t there…
Oh I am in aggreance because its a passing league. But I just find this a little too arbitrary because I mean if Jones accounts for 4 TDs against the Eagles in the win - it probably means he had a really good game. I think a more meaningful stat is a total of 15 on the year. That has more credence IMO.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
What people??!?!?!?!! There’s like 1% of the fan base who still thinks he should be the starting quarterback going forward.
I don’t know what will satisfy you guys. Should we all get together and drive to Daniel Jones house and murder him? I just don’t want to read bullshit. Reading about Tommy Devito’s TD passes against the worst scoring defense in the NFL is bullshit. Reading that Daniel Jones and Malik Willis are the same guy is bullshit.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
Looking forward to your reaction come draft time.
Are you honestly hoping the Giants don't take a QB so you can do some sort of victory lap while this team embarks on another 5 win season with a 30th or below ranked offense?
You seem to be moving the bar from "let's see what Jones does on the field" to "if the Giants don't take a QB then Schoen and Daboll are with me." Is that what is happening?
Giants yesterday had six turnovers and the D generated 5 of them. They have been poor at generating TO's for years.
There have been articles on the "hidden points" of the game and some have said a turnover averages out to four points/turnover. Often you see the stats "Points of TO's".
Criticizing DJ's performance in a road playoff game in a dome is pretty weak imv.
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
As I’ve said before, Jones is Sam Bradford with speed. When his first read isn’t there, he goes to his checkdown. And sorry, he was doing it last year too.
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Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
People can't admit that they defended a player they really liked, but were ultimately wrong about him.
When the Giants do start someone else next year or the year after and that player struggles, you will absolutely see "Bet you guys wish we still had Jones!" posts.
The number of these posters are getting smaller and smaller by the day, but the ones that are left post constantly and they are too insecure to walk it back, especially the ones that were dug in on Gettleman before that.
What people??!?!?!?!! There’s like 1% of the fan base who still thinks he should be the starting quarterback going forward.
I don’t know what will satisfy you guys. Should we all get together and drive to Daniel Jones house and murder him? I just don’t want to read bullshit. Reading about Tommy Devito’s TD passes against the worst scoring defense in the NFL is bullshit. Reading that Daniel Jones and Malik Willis are the same guy is bullshit.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
Looking forward to your reaction come draft time.
So this season hasn't changed your opinion on Jones at all? You have no concerns or doubts about him moving forward? You 100% believe he is the quarterback they should build around?
I'm not trying to attack you I'm just completely befuddled someone can watch this team and still believe that.
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
My opinion on Jones has not changed, so you saying things like "even Ryan didn't believe in him" is again, you just spewing things that aren't remotely accurate.
This is simple man. Do you believe signing Jones was a good decision and do you believe he can lead the Giants to a championship?
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
Hurts is a winning quarterback who was in contention for MVP. Kind of an important detail.
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
Are you really that stupid? You think I actually meant that?
They played the worst scoring defense in the league yesterday. If one doesn’t take that into account, then you’re not discussing this seriously.
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
He has the traits I look for in a franchise QB, always has. I feel like coaching and roster makeup have ruined him throughout his career and I was excited to see what he could do with Daboll. As it turned out, his first year with Daboll was pretty good.
So - again - you guys don't need to keep asking this question to me. He was sacked and pressured a million times the first month, a lot of those games got out of hand. It wasn't a sustainable offense with no LT and the beating he was taking.
I don't feel the need to keep saying the same things over and over again. I don't think Jones is the reason we are 3-8. He's not even in the top 5 reasons actually, in my opinion.
But Ryan that pick 6 against Seattle, but Ryan blah blah blah. I'll continue to hear it but I really don't care. I'll be fine with it if they choose to keep building the roster next year and forego QB. I'll accept it and be fine with it if they do pick a QB. I really do not care. Continuing to say this over and over again is pointless.
DeVito was also sacked NINE times yesterday. He didn't turn the ball over either.
I don't get your loyalty to Jones here. He hasn't earned it.
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
The contract Jones got is also nowhere near what Hurts got.
Oh it's easy, they can just employ the same tactic they take serious umbrage against when used to discredit Jones' performance against the Vikings: the opposition's defense was terrible!
Jones tears his ACL and the general consensus, at least among the fans seems to be a rush to replace him.
That tells me everything I need to know.
You seem to be forgetting one thing.
Hurts is a winning quarterback who was in contention for MVP. Kind of an important detail.
Eric, that's my point. Signing Hurts was a good decision, signing Jones was a bad decision.
And their respective teams and fanbases know it.
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
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You seem unhinged. Maybe go take a walk or something? Do you think anyone here is actually wanting to murder Jones?
Eric posted that this passing offense is just as good if not better with a UDFA QB making his second NFL start as it is with Jones. Most of the posts agree with that. There are a few - you, ryn. djm - who seem pissed at this. I think many of us are just curious as to why.
To make this abundantly clear so you are not worried...Daniel Jones is not in any physical danger from me or anyone else posting on this thread. We are talking about his performance as an NFL QB only.
Are you really that stupid? You think I actually meant that?
They played the worst scoring defense in the league yesterday. If one doesn’t take that into account, then you’re not discussing this seriously.
Yeah I am definitely coming across as the stupid one here.
Fuck off you ignorant psycho.
It's ridiculous. Learn how to understand QB play, ffs.
I'm really hoping he continues to play well so we have a cheap back-up next year but that we pick high in the draft enough to get a big-impact QB.
All I continue to say is that Jones has the qualities that can bring the Giants to a championship one day, and I'll be fine with it if they choose to run it back with him next season. They have the youngest roster in the entire league. Would it be wise to take a QB? Sure, probably. Nothing is guaranteed.
I trust Schoen and Daboll. Whatever call they make, that tells me that it is the route they want to go down.
The toxicity in this thread is Threat Level: Midnight
You act like he carried the team. He didn’t. And what happened in that divisional game?
OK, got it. Good addition to the thread.
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
Tim Tebow is one of the most compelling comps for Jones' career. I can't decide if it's:
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Mitch Trubisky
Tim Tebow
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
OK cool. So having established you believe Jones is a championship caliber quarterback and under contract on reasonable terms -- would it be a mistake for the Giants to spend a high draft picks on a quarterback?
I will be ecstatic if DeVito shines and we play well.
I'm really hoping he continues to play well so we have a cheap back-up next year but that we pick high in the draft enough to get a big-impact QB.
Honestly, we have no idea if DeVito is a legit NFL quarterback. He could suck from here on out.
But we've entered a weird area where I get the sense some Giants "fans" will be happy to see him fail to somehow defend Jones at this point.
The worst case scenario for Jones? DeVito ends up with more than 15 passing TDs (Jones' high in 16 games last year).
My guess is Tyrod Taylor's return will prevent that from even being a possibility.
No, it would not be a "mistake" if the Giants drafted a quarterback. As I said, I trust Schoen and Daboll to make that call.
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Then.
OK, got it. Good addition to the thread.
Anything to help you understand football better, you’re welcome pal!
No Giants fan, including me, are going to be upset with DeVito playing well so that we can continue to defend Jones.
I am thrilled that DeVito played well yesterday. I hope he keeps it up.
Stop making things up.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
Put aside Daboll and Schoen, and just your opinion.
In general, if a team has a championship-caliber quarterback on their roster, is it wise to use valuable resources on another quarterback?
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The Washington Commanders are currently dead last in the NFL in points allowed per game this season. They somehow trail a team that allowed 70 points earlier this season. Devito’s previous TD passes came with the team trailing by an average of 31 points.
Like 75% of Jones career passing tds have come against some of the worst defenses in the league.
To put some numbers behind your (slight) exaggeration in the two best statistical years of Jones's career:
2019: Bucs (30th in passing yards), Lions (32nd), Jets (17th), Redskins (18th and spiraling)- 17 TDs (15 pass, 2 run), 4 TOs.
Other 8 starts: 9 TDs, 19 TOs.
2022: Titans (32nd), Vikings (31st), Ravens (26th), Colts (12th but an absolute disaster at that point) - 13 TDs (11 pass, 2 rush), 4 TOs in 5 games
Other 13 starts: 11 TDs (6 pass, 5 rush), 4 TOs
So that's 30 total TDs and 8 TOs in 9 games, vs. 20 TDs and 23 TOs in the other 21 games.
If Jones was more often the guy we saw in those 9 games I don't think anyone would have a problem. The problem is that they aren't representative of his overall body of work:
61 Starts (incl. playoffs): 64%, 6.6 Y/A, 77 TD (62 passing), 65 TOs
Remember when, not even two hours ago, you were also talking about people moving the goalposts and "pretty much everyone" agreeing that the DJ contract was a good one? Even though it was then pointed out to you that you move the goalposts more than anyone and the "same people" who are complaining about Jones in 2023 were also saying at the time that the contract was signed that they wished it had been the franchise tag instead?
I think we can safely conclude that any time you make generalizations about "same people" that you're full of shit.
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why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
That is very accurate. It is also because Collinsworth is a little less careful about being critical of players & teams and fans of those players & teams see it as hatred rather than honesty.
DeVito was also sacked NINE times yesterday. He didn't turn the ball over either.
I don't get your loyalty to Jones here. He hasn't earned it.
This is the funniest thing. What loyalty? I’m one of the people who’s upset that they won yesterday. I want Caleb Williams or Drake Maye. Sy has me very interested in Jayden Daniels.
The Daniel Jones era is over. This need to pile on just makes no sense to me. Its like an old men yelling at a cloud.
No Giants fan, including me, are going to be upset with DeVito playing well so that we can continue to defend Jones.
I am thrilled that DeVito played well yesterday. I hope he keeps it up.
Stop making things up.
Tommy Gabagool done good. Italian delis everywhere need to name a chicken parm with prosciutto The DeVito, in his honor.
Yes - I believe Jones can get the Giants to a championship. He brought them to the final 4 of the NFC with a terrible team, just last season.
He has the traits I look for in a franchise QB, always has. I feel like coaching and roster makeup have ruined him throughout his career and I was excited to see what he could do with Daboll. As it turned out, his first year with Daboll was pretty good.
So - again - you guys don't need to keep asking this question to me. He was sacked and pressured a million times the first month, a lot of those games got out of hand. It wasn't a sustainable offense with no LT and the beating he was taking.
I don't feel the need to keep saying the same things over and over again. I don't think Jones is the reason we are 3-8. He's not even in the top 5 reasons actually, in my opinion.
But Ryan that pick 6 against Seattle, but Ryan blah blah blah. I'll continue to hear it but I really don't care. I'll be fine with it if they choose to keep building the roster next year and forego QB. I'll accept it and be fine with it if they do pick a QB. I really do not care. Continuing to say this over and over again is pointless.
Thats fair and you are entitled to your opinion. I would ask though-
Jones has been here 5 seasons with 3 coaching staffs and many different roster variations. He has been objectively not a good qb and the team has a losing record. He's been the one constant. You truly believe "coaching and roster makeup have ruined him" and he deserves no blame for the teams poor play?
He has also been objectively very bad this season. His 2nd string and 3rd string backups have performed objectively better this season. Quite simply Taylor and Devito have made plays and throws Jones failed to do at all this season. None of this concerns you or gives you doubt about Jones?
And what traits does he possess that you look for in a franchise quarterback?
I'm genuinely curious in your reasoning.
We're just debating football. Why does that upset you so much?
No Giants fan, including me, are going to be upset with DeVito playing well so that we can continue to defend Jones.
I am thrilled that DeVito played well yesterday. I hope he keeps it up.
Stop making things up.
As usual, the king of making things up accuses others of doing the same.
Pretty much everything you accuse anyone of, you're guilty of doing yourself. It's really quite remarkable.
Believe me when I tell you that I'm not obsessed with your posts.
I may have a slight obsession with correcting stupidity though.
Yeah, I particularly liked the argument that DeVito has a garbage time TDs, like Jones doesn't.
If you guys haven't noticed, I've avoid much of the endless Daniel Jones threads for the past six months. The reason is I still had not made my mind up on him, plus how can you make a determination in January - August?
I was thrilled he was having his best training camp.
But once the games counted for real, the TDs dried up again. Was the OL a big part of that? Yes. But the OL was also a huge issue yesterday. The Giants didn't have any rushing yards until the last play of the 3rd quarter. DeVito was sacked nine times and the Giants had 12 plays that were tackled for a loss.
But DeVito led the offense to 24 points. He didn't turn the ball over either.
Same team. Same coaches. Same OL struggles.
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why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
I like Collinsworth, but I think he definitely has an arrogance about him (not as much as he used to) that bothers people. I know your point is not about why fans may not like Collinsworth.
As for Terps - He has had some good insight, but I also think he is being at least a bit overrated by some on this board. To me, the accuracy of his opinions/predictions don't stand out amongst other good posters. Like the rest of us, he has gotten some right and some wrong.
For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money.
That's called being disingenuous and flipping the argument in your favor, no matter the outcome.
In college he led Bama to an 11-1 season and won the Sugar Bowl MVP and Bama ultimately won the National title (yes he was benched in the game)
Hurts transferred to Oklahoma and led them to a Big 12, the playoffs and he finished second in the Heisman voting
Hurts had 9500 pass yds 80 TD to 20 int and 3500 rush yds and 43 rush TDs
So 123 total TDs with major success at 2 huge college programs and and a National title
In the pros, Hurts took over the starting job end of his rookie year on a non-playoff team and has went 31-12. He has 11k passing yds and 59 TDs to 27 ints he has 3300 rush yds and 33 rush TDs
He took the team to the Super Bowl in a year where he was in top 5 for MVP votes
He had a total of 370 yds and 4 TDs in the Super Bowl
Im sorry comparing Jones to Hurts at this stage is not reality.
One is 22-36-1 and one is 31-12
One has 92 TDs to 75 TDs despite playing in 15 less games
One has been an NFL MVP candidate
One has won a National title and been to a Super Bowl and one has won the Quick Lane Bowl and a playoff game
One had 123 college TDs and one had 69
One was second in Heisman and one win Senior Bowl MVP
One was a 4 star recruit to Alabama and one was a walk on at Duke
At every level Hurts has succeeded and produced and brought big time results. Jones has not at any level.
[quote]For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money./quote]
Terps has argued from the time before you were on BBI that teams should take big swings at many QBs, and then move on from them if they don't produce.
You couldn't be more wrong about the above assessment.
The funniest part is that anyone can copy/paste the refusal to demonstrate conviction just as easily, with even more impact.
ZERO turnovers and threw 3 TDs.. two of them deep.
If this situation were happening on another team we'd all be laughing our asses off at such a stupid handling of the QB position.
There actually was a thread where people did exactly that early in the season: the thread about the 9'ers trading Trey Lance. A few even said it was grounds for firing John Lynch.
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In comment 16296233 Eric from BBI said:
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started six games this year. He did not throw a TD in five of those games.
What are people defending at this point?
This is getting weird.
Eric, I don’t think people are defending Jones so much as they refuse to be like GoTerps equating Daniel Jones to Malik Willis.
When were they actually equated?
Look at his 12:30 AM post
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
I truly don't get it.
But here's an example that also addresses Eric's question: people who really stalk and bash Terps oversimplify, misconstrue, or just don't even try to get his positions, whether deliberately or not.
What he said about Malik Willis vs Jones is not what you think you said. That's why the only people here who keep harping on that point are guys like you and Speedywheels, whereas guys like JonC don't: they allow themselves to know what Terps meant.
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
Sports are replete with such "heroic" individual performances that dramatically eclipse what the individual consistently puts forth. It's never wise to use these performances as THE sample size but it's so common to do.
Hell, as a Warriors fan I'm seeing it right now with Jordan Poole.
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Got his team to the “final four” in the AFC
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
Tim Tebow is one of the most compelling comps for Jones' career. I can't decide if it's:
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Mitch Trubisky
Tim Tebow
Josh Freeman's qualifications as a comp may also be worth investigating
A great example of this is Tennessee. Going into this draft they had Tannehill and Willis under contract.
Neither is good enough, so they pick Levis.
Giants don't have to mortgage the future and trade future picks to move into the top 2 to grab one of these QBs. But the DJ era has to end after next year at the latest.
It's mind boggling. I wanted Jones to do well and take the next step this year. But it's crystal clear he's not the answer and I'm not even sure how that can be debated at this point.
It reminds a little of Knicks fans with Frank Ntilkina.
Terps did suggest the Giants draft Willis. The point being that he believed he was probably better than Jones, but also if he wasn't, you make that evaluation quickly and move on - what the Giants did not do with Jones when it was evident that they had missed on him. He also suggested a bad Willis on a rookie deal was better than a bad Jones on a $40M deal. That isn't wrong.
If you want to have a discussion about how much a poster sucks, discuss what they actually said.
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In comment 16295959 Eric from BBI said:
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why people are jumping on Go Terps. He's been the most accurate poster on this site in the past five years.
I always thought it was funny how so many sports fans I'd see in sports bars just *hated* Chris Collinsworth. He elicited more ire than any other announcer I noticed -- somehow no one else provoked loud drunken shouts like, "Fuck you Collinsworth!!" It was a notable enough difference for me to be interested in the why, and I think it just came down to how hard it was for these sports bar types in their jerseys to reconcile how this smarmy guy who looks like an accountant knows more about football than they can ever possibly fathom, how he could watch a play in real time and catch 20 nuances that would completely escape them, and use terminology to describe them that they never learned.
I don't think Terps would claim he knows football to that degree, but him sticking to his guns and being right about positions so many people here are so passionate about probably just pisses them off.
That is very accurate. It is also because Collinsworth is a little less careful about being critical of players & teams and fans of those players & teams see it as hatred rather than honesty.
I remember Collinsworth appearing on someone's podcast (think it was Bill Simmons') and was asked what he does when obnoxious fans demand to know why he hates their team. He said he got to the point know where his answer is, "I don't know, I just do."
That's such a perfect way to mock the question.
That's a problem.
But there’s the, ya know, on the field production part.
The Daniel Jones era is over. This need to pile on just makes no sense to me. Its like an old men yelling at a cloud.
There's definitely some truth here, and I think a lot of people involved in continuing the debate are either just enjoying needling their opponents on the other side of the argument a little bit, or are getting really defensive about said needling or just the potential for needling.
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In comment 16296515 HardTruth said:
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Got his team to the “final four” in the AFC
And he threw for 316 yds with 2 TDs and had 50 yds rushing with a TD so 366 yds and 3 TDs
And he did it vs the #1 ranked Steelers defense
Tim Tebow is one of the most compelling comps for Jones' career. I can't decide if it's:
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Mitch Trubisky
Tim Tebow
Josh Freeman's qualifications as a comp may also be worth investigating
Trubisky may be the best comp. But even the Bears weren’t stupid enough t to sign him to a big contract extension.
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Terps - saying things like "Malik Willis is the same as Daniel Jones" is not only ridiculous on its face but it makes me think that you actually believe the nonsense you are saying.
But here's an example that also addresses Eric's question: people who really stalk and bash Terps oversimplify, misconstrue, or just don't even try to get his positions, whether deliberately or not.
What he said about Malik Willis vs Jones is not what you think you said. That's why the only people here who keep harping on that point are guys like you and Speedywheels, whereas guys like JonC don't: they allow themselves to know what Terps meant.
Terps also advocated trading a 2nd round pick for Nick Mullens. If the team sucks and a poster advocates trades at all times, of course he’s going to look prescient. We all want the Giants to win games, but it does get exceedingly old when every thread devolves into a high brow version of “trade this guy and that one and get as many draft picks as we can, Daniel Jones is a backup level player……”
This place used to handle the nuances of the game a little better. Or maybe I just got older since January 2003.
Tim Tebow is one of the most compelling comps for Jones' career. I can't decide if it's:
Brock Osweiler
Blake Bortles
Mitch Trubisky
Tim Tebow
To me it's Trubisky. Sure, he didn't have the luxury of playing an all-time terrible defense in the playoffs, but he threw for over 300 yards, threw a TD in the 4th quarter that gave his team the lead, and then drove into FG range with under a minute on the clock. If Cody Parkey could make a 43-yard FG, he'd have a playoff win on his mediocre resume too.
57 starts (incl playoffs): 82 total TDs, 55 TOs
He had an improbable run in the playoffs and earlier in his career had a season where he threw a bunch of touchdowns.
But ultimately, he reverted to what he was -- not good enough to be a starting NFL quarterback.
I’d be thrilled if we’ve seen the last of him as a Giant.
It is but I think it has more to do with how Waller was a crutch and now they have to spread it around.
For instance, he can say things like "Willis could really transform this team" and he can prop him up all season and really wanted the Giants to draft him at 7, and then a year later, completely convince people that it actually would be a good thing that Willis was on the roster instead of Jones, because he sucks so bad that they wouldn't have to pay him any money.
That's called being disingenuous and flipping the argument in your favor, no matter the outcome.
But what you repeatedly don't get is that it's disingenuous to misrepresent people's positions, which you repeatedly do.
Either that, or you're just not understanding the positions very well to begin with and I'm definitely not ruling that possibility out.
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Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
It is but I think it has more to do with how Waller was a crutch and now they have to spread it around.
I was half joking cause Waller does bring things credible to the offense. But if he had a true number 1 and a QB who is consistent - he could be a big factor.
We’ve set the bar so low around here….
Other than his first start v DC, Jones has averaged less than 200 yards per start with 4 TD passes in 5 games. Just so we’re setting the bar low.
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Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
I’d be thrilled if we’ve seen the last of him as a Giant.
He can't throw the ball to himself!
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
He had an improbable run in the playoffs and earlier in his career had a season where he threw a bunch of touchdowns.
But ultimately, he reverted to what he was -- not good enough to be a starting NFL quarterback.
The Bortles comp was used almost instantaneously when Jones was overdrafted.
He can't throw the ball to himself!
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
His injuries are my concern. Dude is always hurt. Tough to rely on him.
I guess you can take pride in knowing that no one will ever level that accusation about you.
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In comment 16296680 JT039 said:
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Maybe the offense is better without Darren Waller too!!!
I’d be thrilled if we’ve seen the last of him as a Giant.
He can't throw the ball to himself!
It should be a dead issue by now but it's clear there's ability at the skill positions that wasn't being taken advantage of earlier in the year. When he had decent QB play he was a factor.
How many players do we need to see perform better away from Jones before we can confidently say Jones is the issue? Even Barkley is producing in the passing game with DeVito.
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In comment 16295925 Go Terps said:
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The Giants shouldn't get off that easy. This has to be a learning experience. Questions need to be asked, and it would be good for the team, media, and fans to understand how not to make this mistake again.
Your smug comments crack me up. You would have sunk this organization if they followed your idiotic choices- hello Malik Willis.. You enjoy the team losing so you can come off as some football savant , spewing your anti Mara, anti "Giants way" (hidden racist accusations over QB choices).. Again, you hid when they were winning but like a fungus you came back when conditions were favorable for you..
He's also the asshole who preaches to draft a QB every year, but preemptively bashes Schoen for even thinking about drafting a QB this year, because that would be "giving up" on Jones after 5 games into his contract.
But of course, he ignores Philly drafting Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract.
He's all about himself. Always has been. He's been wrong many more times he's right. But that doesn't stop him from pontificating. He's a fucking caricature at this point.
Look, I don’t agree with Terps on a lot of things, but the fact that he posts things that you don’t agree with makes him an asshole? Grow up.
I don't want Jones to fail. But, I also don't want to continue committing to a guy I am not convinced can get it done. I have no desire to even consider DeVito moving forward as anything other than a potential backup or #3. I wouldn't let DeVito's play make me say Hell no to one of 4 of the top QBs available. I mean, in the unrealistic scenario that DeVito has more games like this the rest of the way...maybe. But, it is not likely we see this from him against Philly, for example.
For me, DeVito having a game like this is more about what we haven't gotten from Jones than anything we are getting from DeVito. To that end, I think the argument of placing ALL blame on the OL and the false narrative that there is nobody to throw to go out the window. The bottom line is, your $40M QB has to actually be able to make plays when they are there, regardless of the pressure. When he doesn't, but an undrafted and unheralded rookie who was there as nothing more than a nice story and potential development project makes some plays, it doesn't look good.
Terps did suggest the Giants draft Willis. The point being that he believed he was probably better than Jones, but also if he wasn't, you make that evaluation quickly and move on - what the Giants did not do with Jones when it was evident that they had missed on him. He also suggested a bad Willis on a rookie deal was better than a bad Jones on a $40M deal. That isn't wrong.
If you want to have a discussion about how much a poster sucks, discuss what they actually said.
I'm trying to make the same point. It won't land, so I don't know why I keep trying.
Where there is a will to misunderstand someone, there is a way. And in this case, there's definitely a will.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
If a year and a half of Judge and Garrett broke him he wasn't gonna survive anyway. They tried to coach the turnovers out of him but I can't believe they were THAT effective.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
If a year and a half of Judge and Garrett broke him he wasn't gonna survive anyway. They tried to coach the turnovers out of him but I can't believe they were THAT effective.
They really didn't coach the turnovers out of him. They reduced the scheme. Made it simpler. Made the throws shorter and more high percentage. What happened is the depth of target got unsustainably low, turnovers went down, completion pct went up.
Then when Daboll dialed up the vertical schemes, Jones couldn't adjust, and returned to the mistake-prone QB he has always been.
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
It's the quarterback. That's the common denominator.
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
Sometimes it takes a venue change for a player to realize he has to step up his game. Otherwise, he'll be out of options altogether soon.
He had an improbable run in the playoffs and earlier in his career had a season where he threw a bunch of touchdowns.
But ultimately, he reverted to what he was -- not good enough to be a starting NFL quarterback.
The Bortles comp was used almost instantaneously when Jones was overdrafted.
Yup. Bortles had a 35 TD season and 2 playoff wins, including a road win against a no. 2 seed with a top 10 defense on his belt.
Weird shit happens.
Its ok to say Jones has been been/disappointing. But so have been a lot of players around him.
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In comment 16296737 JoeyBigBlue said:
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
If DeVito is effective vs. NE, we will not be able to stash him on our PS next season. I’m assuming Tyrod comes back after the bye to finish out the string of the season. QB play is so bad around the league that a 25-26 year old kid with DeVito’s arm/intangibles will get scooped up, I think.
If we plan on keeping DeVito and he keeps doing what he did yesterday, stashing him will mean losing him.
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In comment 16296737 JoeyBigBlue said:
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
Agreed. How much is shitty OL and how much is coaching? A guy like Will Hernandez was godawful here, and he seems at least serviceable in Zona. Feliciano was roundly criticized here but he’s seemingly ok in Frisco.
Sometimes it takes a venue change for a player to realize he has to step up his game. Otherwise, he'll be out of options altogether soon.
Jones will soon be out of options. QBs like Jones who get paid big money, the way Jones has, leave the game: Bortles, Osweiler. The ones who don't get paid, toil as backups: Trubisky.
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In comment 16296744 jinkies said:
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In comment 16296737 JoeyBigBlue said:
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On what happened to Jones from his rookie season to year 5. His rookie season he showed promise looking down the field and not feeling the pressure. By year 5, he’s captain Checkdown. Not sure if we David Carr’d him with shitty O-Line play, but it’s clear he’s not the same QB that was drafted here.
He was the same QB as a rookie as he is now. That's the great misconception here. In his rook season Shurmur treated him as a one read passer, often cutting the field in half. If the read was open, Jones could often hit it. What has happened is teams started taking away the first read, and the run. And he is unable to adjust.
That’s complete bullshit. Jones stood tall in the pocket and looked downfield. He couldn’t feel the rush and it led to a ton of fumbles. This season he never looked downfield and didn’t take chances. It was either his first read or a Checkdown.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
I have a hunch you might be right. Sure, there are probably a few plays here and there that do show Jones standing tall in the pocket and looking downfield. But I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of highlights of big plays show him throwing to someone who was likely his first read, who was schemed open.
And hey, that's probably true of most quarterbacks honestly. But perhaps many of them wouldn't be easy to mitigate by selling out to take away the first read.
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
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In comment 16296761 JoeyBigBlue said:
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
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In comment 16296761 JoeyBigBlue said:
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
I didn't say Shurmur was better or worse than Daboll. He ran a scheme where Jones could have temporary success. Daboll also ran a scheme where Jones could have temporary success, both were highly defined. When defenses adjusted, Jones' success was short lived.
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In comment 16296770 jinkies said:
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In comment 16296761 JoeyBigBlue said:
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
Exactly.
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In comment 16296770 jinkies said:
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In comment 16296761 JoeyBigBlue said:
Sorry. It's completely accurate. Jones could never feel the rush, then or now. That hasn't changed. He was a one read QB under Shurmur. He can excel in that system, if teams don't defend it. But now they do defend it. What did the rookie corner from SEA say? He looks down his target and if his read isn't there he's in trouble. C'mon man, put two and two together.
Shurmur’s system isn’t anything special. He’s not a better offensive coach than Daboll. What happened to Jones is something that happens to a ton of QBs, their eye level drops. It happened to Eli towards the end of his career too. Years of getting hit will do that to most QBs. The thing with Jones is that it happened way way too early into his career.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
How was Shurmur’s tenure as offensive coordinator for the Broncos? He was fired after 2 seasons. Shurmur is a good coach, but saying Jones thrived because of Shurmur is bullshit. Daboll is a better coach.
Criticizing DJ's performance in a road playoff game in a dome is pretty weak imv.
THiS is an example of “moving the goalposts”. No one, and I mean NO ONE is criticizing Jones’ performance v Minny, just pointing out that he did it against the worst pass D in the NFL. So if you’re going to minimize TD Tommy’s performance for coming against an admittedly bad DC defense, why is it “criticism” when posters do the same with Jones?
As JonC pointed out, this is the NFL, you HAVE to produce in the passing game. Even Baltimore realized that they need to get more pass production out of Lamar, so much so that they swapped out OC’s to do so. Jones cannot consistently produce in the passing game, I don’t know how much more some posters have to see before they acknowledge that.
Do you think it's just happenstance that Shurmur was able to coax a nearly identical statistical season out of Case Keenum two years before DJ's rookie year?
How was Shurmur’s tenure as offensive coordinator for the Broncos? He was fired after 2 seasons. Shurmur is a good coach, but saying Jones thrived because of Shurmur is bullshit. Daboll is a better coach.
I think it's more about Shurmur's resume of temporarily coaxing the most out of mediocrity.
Keenum. Jones. Bridgewater in 2021 had 20 total TDs in 14 starts against only 8 turnovers.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
Fans and more importantly the Giants franchise need to move on from their faith in Jones.
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not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
And, it's been acknowledged, repeatedly. At the end of the day, Jones is the inconsistent passer he's always been, and is regressing.
I asked this over the past few seasons, and it remains valid now; who honestly sees Jones raising a Lombardi?
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not very good at. It's certainly not a strength. He will sometimes feel the rush, and move effectively to avoid it. But, the vast majority of the time he does not, and he gets clobbered, turns the football over, etc. And, we're witnessing his courage shrinking, eye level dropping to watch the rush rather than his receivers, etc. All are true.
Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
But, do they? How do we know this? Other than assuming it is true of QBs who face a lot of pressure and never get it together, how are we certain that it is PTSD vs. lack of skill and talent? People keep repeating it like it is true. David Carr got sacked a lot and never became a good QB, so people made him the poster boy for QBs who got broken by bad organizations. But maybe David Carr was a bad QB and no matter what happened he was never going to be Aaron Rodgers. Or even Derek Carr.
This idea that QBs get broken and never recover, it's just a fan theory. and a lazy one at that.
Plenty of great QBs got pressure and harassed at some point in their careers.
So that’s one example of a very good QB who suffered from too many hits but he recovered with some rest time and was able to play well after that.
He is not a good passer.
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
I truly don't get it.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
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He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
This is exactly right. Devito proved UNEQUIVOCALLY yesterday that an undrafted rookie could not only perform well behind a crappy OL in front of him, even taking nine sacks in the process, but win a game with a solid vertical passing game where he actually ELEVATES the players around him.
The DJ narrative that has been so definitively wrong for years on this board that "...he would be good if only he had a good OL and good weapons" was obliterated for good yesterday. DJ was overdrafted and is at best a backup level NFL talent. If not for a very shrewd head coach last year, and an enormous amount of luck in terms of the schedule of opponents and the first round powder puff Viking draw in the playoffs, he would have been gone well before the 2023 football year began. The contract given to him by Schoen was the single dumbest decision ever made by this organization.
And BTW, if Daboll can do what he has done with Tommy Devito, he could certainly elevate guys like Malik Willis just as well if not better than he did with Daniel Jones. The simple fact is, Terps has always been right on the proper approach to the quarterback position for this franchise. The team and its fans would do well to consider and respect his opinions going forward.
But at least we now know that The DJ Era, the most brutal five year period in this franchise's history, is now finally and mercifully over. Hallelujah! The future is brighter today than at any moment since bleak Thursday 4/25/2019. And it begins now!
There kind of is already: Case Keenum with Shurmur vs. without
Murmur is actually pretty good with inflating garbage QB regular season stats.
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I just don't understand how any fan could want to move forward with Jones. There is overwhelming evidence that he is not any good.
He's 22-36-1 as a starter. Out of 59 games started, he's maybe had 18 good performances. What else do you need to see?
Do you prefer being "right" or having a team that is good and entertaining to watch?
And for the love of god stop bringing up last season and the road playoff win. There have been many recent quarterbacks who have taken their teams just as far or deeper in the playoffs with better performances whose teams have moved on from quicker.
Trubisky/ Bortles/ Tebow/ Wentz/ Tannehill/ Goff/ garropolo/Bradford....the list is long.
I truly don't get it.
Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
Everyone has been rooting for Daniel Jones. Do you have any idea how much better off the Giants would be if Daniel Jones was the QB some of you hope he could be? It would be fucking incredible, the absolutely best case scenario would be for Daniel Jones to be terrific.
Unfortunately, all the hoping in the world can't make up for reality. If it makes you feel like you're a better fan, go right ahead.
Link - ( New Window )
Heck, let's give him 160 million, DeVito has proven it !
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
This is the core issue of the DJ debates, as far as I can tell.
Some fans just cannot separate their heart from their head. Every single Giants fan has rooted for DJ to succeed.
Where we divide isn't on the rooting front. We divide on our objective view of whether DJ can succeed or not. And of course, that's limited by our collective ability to actually be objective in the first place, and then further limited by our ability to know enough about what we're seeing to even inform an objective viewpoint at all.
But none of this is about rooting. We're all rooting for the Giants, and we have all rooted for DJ to succeed. Some fans have reached the point where they no longer believe that the Giants can reach the top tier with DJ at QB, and others believe that DJ can absolutely take the Giants to that top tier.
That's not a matter of rooting. Rooting is emotional.
It's much more academic than that. I understand why some fans choose not to separate the two - it's easier that way, and honestly, not everyone should be obligated to enjoy sports the same way. But I find the whole suggestion that DJ's critics are bad fans, or are somehow less loyal, to be a weak, desperate argument. Usually, it tends to come up when posters are just trying to fend off a TKO long enough for the bell to ring.
We all want what's best for the Giants. We just disagree along the way about what the "what's best for the Giants" entails. I could just as easily conclude that the fans that remain entrenched in their unwavering DJ support are bad fans because they're rooting for a QB that I believe is an impediment to team success. I could conclude that you couldn't possibly be rooting for the Giants to win if you want DJ to remain the QB.
But that's a shitty way to argue. I'd much rather hear why you believe DJ can succeed, and discuss those points, and likewise, I'd much rather have others hear why I believe DJ is a liability, and discuss my point of view as well.
Leave the silly scorekeeping of fan loyalty out of it, because it's an empty argument.
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Yeah, well, QBs get PTSD too. It's a cumulative effect thingy.
But, do they? How do we know this? Other than assuming it is true of QBs who face a lot of pressure and never get it together, how are we certain that it is PTSD vs. lack of skill and talent? People keep repeating it like it is true. David Carr got sacked a lot and never became a good QB, so people made him the poster boy for QBs who got broken by bad organizations. But maybe David Carr was a bad QB and no matter what happened he was never going to be Aaron Rodgers. Or even Derek Carr.
This idea that QBs get broken and never recover, it's just a fan theory. and a lazy one at that.
Plenty of great QBs got pressure and harassed at some point in their careers.
You don't have to look to David Carr to find examples.
Eli in his last few years was not the same QB he was when he was younger. A lot of that had to do with repetitive beatings he was taking in the pocket, IMO. He lost the ability to elevate his team. 32-51 in his last six seasons, 9-26 in his last three.
Kerry Collins had a rifle and given time could be pretty damn good. Couldn't function under pressure though.
Not really a lazy theory there, newbie.
What is the "start over again and rebuild" piece? We are talking about replacing an unproductive QB, not dismantle the entire team.
And by the way, to the extent any of you thought the 2023 roster represented a finished product just because Jones got a big contract then you are watching close enough.
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If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
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Maybe if you swap in "rooting for" in place of "wanting to move forward with" him it's easier to understand. We're Giant fans, he's the Giants QB, it's that simple. I'm hoping he proves everybody wrong while well aware that may not happen.
Anyway I love the Giants, and I suspect I'll be rooting for Drake Maye or whomever, long after most of this place has given up on him also.
This is the core issue of the DJ debates, as far as I can tell.
Some fans just cannot separate their heart from their head. Every single Giants fan has rooted for DJ to succeed.
Where we divide isn't on the rooting front. We divide on our objective view of whether DJ can succeed or not. And of course, that's limited by our collective ability to actually be objective in the first place, and then further limited by our ability to know enough about what we're seeing to even inform an objective viewpoint at all.
But none of this is about rooting. We're all rooting for the Giants, and we have all rooted for DJ to succeed. Some fans have reached the point where they no longer believe that the Giants can reach the top tier with DJ at QB, and others believe that DJ can absolutely take the Giants to that top tier.
That's not a matter of rooting. Rooting is emotional.
It's much more academic than that. I understand why some fans choose not to separate the two - it's easier that way, and honestly, not everyone should be obligated to enjoy sports the same way. But I find the whole suggestion that DJ's critics are bad fans, or are somehow less loyal, to be a weak, desperate argument. Usually, it tends to come up when posters are just trying to fend off a TKO long enough for the bell to ring.
We all want what's best for the Giants. We just disagree along the way about what the "what's best for the Giants" entails. I could just as easily conclude that the fans that remain entrenched in their unwavering DJ support are bad fans because they're rooting for a QB that I believe is an impediment to team success. I could conclude that you couldn't possibly be rooting for the Giants to win if you want DJ to remain the QB.
But that's a shitty way to argue. I'd much rather hear why you believe DJ can succeed, and discuss those points, and likewise, I'd much rather have others hear why I believe DJ is a liability, and discuss my point of view as well.
Leave the silly scorekeeping of fan loyalty out of it, because it's an empty argument.
I never understand the people arguing based on what they want to happen.
If I see a car fly off a cliff into a canyon like Thelma and Louise I want everyone inside to be ok, but what I want doesn't really matter.
It's the same thing here. We see this organization make mistakes so often we can narrate them as they happen, but we're not supposed to call them mistakes because we root for the team??? I don't get it.
Proof requires more evidence of course but we're talking about a rookie UDFA with 3 weeks on the active roster. Whatever you think of the WSH defense, it's an absolutely inconceivable result no one would have taken a bet on that he'd thrive. Washington's defense isn't great, but they played with Philly and didn't look as bad as Sunday.
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In comment 16296955 Eightshamrocks said:
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If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
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In comment 16296967 LW_Giants said:
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In comment 16296955 Eightshamrocks said:
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If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
This^
Schoen and Daboll's job security has taken a massive hit this year precisely because they overestimated DJ. If they do it again, they will both be gone after next year. There is no doubt in my mind now that they will hitch their wagon in 2024 to another quarterback and properly begin the rebuild for real this time.
If the Giants go 10-7/11-6 with Jones and win a Playoff game, there is no way the Giants turnbit over to an uproven QB in 2025. They will simply roll it back with Jones again.
But that's not what I (or The Mike) was saying, which I suspect you know.
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If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
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In comment 16296955 Eightshamrocks said:
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If he had looked as poor as he did this year WITH a healthy Andrew Thomas, WITH a healthy Barkley, and WITH a legitimate #1 receiver, then I would be on board the anti Jones train. I can't get there yet, and that is because it's not fair to Jones as a player and in his evaluation. The bottom line is he is going to be here next season because of that guaranteed money in his contract. You really think Daball and Schoen would turn the keys over to an unproven rookie or 2nd year QB, and get rid of Jones if the Giants have a bounce back 10-7/11-6 year which includes a playoff win in 2024? You really think Mara would want to start over again and rebuild with a rookie/2nd year player, go 6-11 and not make the playoffs? What would Daball and Schoen's job security look like at that point? I can tell you right now they would be fired in that case.
I actually think the opposite is true. If they take a young QB they may buy themselves another two years. If they go into next season with just Jones and he is awful again, the Giants may clean house and start over.
But the poiny id Jones will be on the roster in 2024 because they are not cutting him to eat all that money. He will get his shot tp turn it around. If he leads the team to 11 wind and a playoff victory, there is no way the Giants don't bring him back in 2025.
Yes, Jones will be on the roster next season. If they don't take a QB and Jones starts and is terrible, Schoen and Daboll are probably out. If he's great, they will be back. At this point, which scenario seems more likely?
Separately, if they draft a QB and Jones still starts and is great, they can trade him. If Jones starts and is terrible, they have this rookie QB they just drafted to develop. In that case I doubt they get fired.
I'm not sure which part you're contesting? Is it that because Jones will be on the roster regardless they shouldn't take a QB?
Jones is very mechanical. Does not have a feel for the game.
Devito is very instinctive, navigates the pocket and looks to get the ball downfield. Jones does none of this. I also think Devito has a quicker release and is more accurate.
Jones has not had an ideal supporting cast but Devito is working with the same players and with much less practice time.
The tide has gone out and Jones has been exposed.
Jones is very mechanical. Does not have a feel for the game.
Devito is very instinctive, navigates the pocket and looks to get the ball downfield. Jones does none of this. I also think Devito has a quicker release and is more accurate.
Jones has not had an ideal supporting cast but Devito is working with the same players and with much less practice time.
The tide has gone out and Jones has been exposed.
I think these are good points. Nobody would say based on the small sample that DeVito is better than anyone. But it is true that Jones is mechanical. DeVito does seem more instinctive. Doesn't mean that DeVito won't turn into Nathan Peterman with more exposure. Instinct is all well and good, but you obviously need more than that to succeed in the NFL.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Exactly. You criticze Jones and you’re not a real fan, yet some of the same posters acted like Evan Engram shot their mother every time he dropped a pass.
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saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Exactly. You criticze Jones and you’re not a real fan, yet some of the same posters acted like Evan Engram shot their mother every time he dropped a pass.
The same Evan Engram who is part of a growing list of players who found success once they left the Giants.
It's all on Joe Schoen not to make another mistake with his next QB.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
You are right that DJ is properly categorized as a backup level talent, comparable to the Bredesons and Glowinskis of the world. But nobody would be dumb enough to give twenty percent of the cap to these types of guys. Except the Giants did with DJ.
So the shills and delusional optimists who for some reason feel the need to defend the inexplicably bad decisions made by the management of this organization, scream loudly and pejoratively at anyone who points out the obvious facts that conflict with the fiction being blown up our asses.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
Why does he get afforded every excuse in the book? Is there another QB in the NFL who has been given this long of leash and been given every explanation possible to explain his poor play over 60 games?
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Because the litmus test is more a function of how far those fans took their opinions from the start, and how they react when those opinions now look battered/bruised.
Why does he get afforded every excuse in the book? Is there another QB in the NFL who has been given this long of leash and been given every explanation possible to explain his poor play over 60 games?
I try to be as the middle as possible with Jones. He has been dogshit this year. No doubt. But I thought he was actually pretty good last year.
Its not making excuses for him. Saying his OL and skill players are below par arent excuses, they are reality. However, even with these units - he hasnt made plays when they are there.
I think its fair to say he hasnt been that good for 5 years and neither has been the team and its time to move on and basically start with someone new.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Gettleman wasn't the only guy to fall into Full Bloom Love with Jones.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
I think this is spot on.
Talent wise - he has the attributes - but is unable to put it together. Now throw in the injury bug.
It's time to find his replacement. And this still new regime should be embracing the chance now to go get the guy they want.
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Even if he were as good as his supporters say, the guy is susceptible to injury, which is a huge problem. But couple his *actual* performance with being injury prone, he is not a worthwhile starting QB.
I think he will be a very good backup QB in this league on a good team--can come in for a few games and possibly provide brief success while the incumbent recuperates.
I think this is spot on.
Talent wise - he has the attributes - but is unable to put it together. Now throw in the injury bug.
It's time to find his replacement. And this still new regime should be embracing the chance now to go get the guy they want.
I would say he has all the physical attributes to succeed. The mental part of the game was his handicap coming into the league, and he has made little to no progress there.
It's not being cruel or unusual to identify Jones as such. There are dozens of failed QBs in that realm.
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If Jones wasn't due a grossly astronomical balloon of a guaranteed salary next year, what do you think the Giants front office would do with him? What would you do?
This is the only way DeVito's performance plays a role. If Jones could actually be cut, I would cut him this off season, draft the QB I want, and then DeVito would be auditioning as a potential backup. Ultimately, I think you want a veteran on the roster with a rookie. Either way, I would consider keeping DeVito as the #3, assuming nobody is really snatching him from the PS.
If DeVito is effective vs. NE, we will not be able to stash him on our PS next season. I’m assuming Tyrod comes back after the bye to finish out the string of the season. QB play is so bad around the league that a 25-26 year old kid with DeVito’s arm/intangibles will get scooped up, I think.
If we plan on keeping DeVito and he keeps doing what he did yesterday, stashing him will mean losing him.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
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saying that Jones isn't very good and should be replaced upsets some fans, while saying that Ben Bredeson or Mark Glowinski aren't very good and should be replaced is fine.
Everyone on this site wants this team to win games. I am not sure why we can talk about every position on the field analytically, except when it comes to Jones? I don't why that has become for some a litmus test of true fandom.
Gettleman wasn't the only guy to fall into Full Bloom Love with Jones.
Too many people look at Jones like a guy they would gladly want their daughter or sister to bring home for Thanksgiving.
He'll help set the table, offer to clean up, say please and thank you, and play catch with you in the backyard.
And as long as you're wide open, you'd have a pretty okay shot at him getting you the ball.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
Both Manning and Brady had merely above-average arms but this is where they exceled. The reason Mahomes and Rodgers look like Gods sometimes is that they have cannons and the processor (and the ad-lib ability). Apparently Marino was also like this but unfortunately that was before my time.
Another thing is accuracy. Think Eli's throw to Manningham in the Super Bowl 46. Or vintage Drew Brees--throw passes to hit guys in stride gives you way more chance for YAC. Also consider Jones' missed throw to Waller at the end of the Niners game--good, accurate QBs make that completion.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
No one believes that. Straw man.
We just know what we have in DJ and it isn’t enough.
What is this assessment based on? Why do you think you can win a super bowl with a player who hasn't proven much of anything in 5 years?
If whatever QB they take busts, they would have just replaced one highly drafted bust with another. There’s zero reason for the Giants to continue with Jones.
Their skills get them to the NFL, but the processor is where success and entering the very good to elite QB realm are often derived.
Agreed. But I think it's impossible to predict if that skill exists because the NFL game is so much more complex and faster than college. And the mental acuity testing can only reveal so much. Until a QB is actually in the line of fire and the lights are on, there is some serious finger crossing going on...
That's why I would rather take the plus/plus-plus skills and hope I have the right prospect and right coaches to develop that ability.
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
If whatever QB they take busts, they would have just replaced one highly drafted bust with another. There’s zero reason for the Giants to continue with Jones.
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
No one believes that. Straw man.
We just know what we have in DJ and it isn’t enough.
I'm not trying to completely shit all over Jones but is there any current or recent NFL QB with a similar track record after 5 seasons that has retained his starting job?
This isn't even a player that can't stay healthy wish flashes of brilliance or even a guy who can't eliminate mistakes. This is a guy after 59 games that has shown you he's not a good starting nfl quarterback and its plain as day.
I like their chances at a upgrade. To continue to build around Jones is insanity.
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
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In comment 16297305 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Jones is not top-15. Get real. He's performance this season is bottom 5 stuff.
If he didn't run for all those yards last season then he wouldn't be in the NFL. The running is keeping him afloat - barely.
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Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
Since the Giants won't be picking top 5, that takes care of that. Packer's, Patriots, and one other game will be w's. 5-12 or 6-11 finish. Book it.
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In comment 16297321 Eightshamrocks said:
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In comment 16297305 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
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In comment 16297321 Eightshamrocks said:
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In comment 16297305 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
You can't expect him to continue that and play 17 games.
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In comment 16297327 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16297321 Eightshamrocks said:
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In comment 16297305 TyreeHelmet said:
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Next level tier? Top 15 without question?? Good lord...
Look up his stats from last year. Over 800 yards rushing and 7 TD's. Home many QB's in this league can do that?
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
Mahomes level qbs don't grow on trees but quarterbacks better than Jones do.
And what you are describing that is needed to build around Jones and "work around" his weaknesses is exactly why this guy needs to be replaced.
Jones is the 11th highest paid player in the league. If you are paying your QB to that level in his 6th season, you shouldn't have to build a perfect team around him and scheme around his weaknesses.
I'll take my chances I can find an upgrade in the draft or elsewhere.
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Top 15? When has he produced as a top 15 QB? I would expect a top 15 QB to throw more than 15 TD passes.
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
But that goes back to the point-How do you know Jone's isn't good enough? You can't base it off this season with Kafka's horrible play calling and the Giants major injuries. Jones was bad this season. No one saying he was good. But, he obviouly was dealt a terrible hand.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
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In comment 16297277 Eightshamrocks said:
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
No one expects a “guarantee” that the drafted QB will be better than Jones, we just realize that Jones isn’t good enough, but he’s being paid like he is. What good organizations do is recognize early that player X isn’t the guy and move on to their next target.
Again we get from the Jones defenders is that we shouldn’t draft a QB because he might not be good enough. Well, we KNOW Jones isn’t good enough, drafting his replacement is the easiest way to try to find “the guy”. How are you going to find a QB if you’re always afraid to draft one?
But that goes back to the point-How do you know Jone's isn't good enough? You can't base it off this season with Kafka's horrible play calling and the Giants major injuries. Jones was bad this season. No one saying he was good. But, he obviouly was dealt a terrible hand.
A terrible hand that an UDFA was able to do something with. Maybe Jones is the terrible hand and is holding everyone else back. He’s had 3 dreadful years in the last 4, and last year continues to be wildly overrated by the DJFC. He still threw for 15 TD’s in 17 games. That doesn’t cut it. Yes, he ran for 7, but QB’s have to produce in the passing game. Even Baltimore realizes that, and Lamar is a far better runner than Jones.
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21% of Jones's passing touchdowns came from three starts, all of which came in his rookie year.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
Washington 12-22-2019: 5
Detroit 10-27-2019: 4
Jets 11-10-2019: 4
Total is 13, divided by the 62 total passing TDs is 20.97%.
Jones has had 16 games where he has thrown for two or more TDs. He's had 59 starts and played 60 games total. DeVito has two in as many starts.
It's insane, isn't it?
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In comment 16296878 BrettNYG10 said:
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21% of Jones's passing touchdowns came from three starts, all of which came in his rookie year.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
Washington 12-22-2019: 5
Detroit 10-27-2019: 4
Jets 11-10-2019: 4
Total is 13, divided by the 62 total passing TDs is 20.97%.
Jones has had 16 games where he has thrown for two or more TDs. He's had 59 starts and played 60 games total. DeVito has two in as many starts.
It's insane, isn't it?
When your coach is Joe Judge, that isn't surprising. Those two seasons should be a wash, in my opinion.
Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
Okay, how about Jalen Hurts? He ran for 760 yards and 13 TDs, on top of the 22 passing TDs. Lamar Jackson, in 12 games, ran for over 700 yards and 3 TDs, while throwing 17.
Jones totaled roughly 3900 yards and 22 TDs last year. There are 15 QBs who had more TDs, plus Jackson who missed 5 games. That list doesn't even include newcomers like CJ Stroud who already has 19 TDs this year, or Brock Purdy who has 20.
I'm sorry you're pot committed on Jones for whatever reason, but you should try watching the rest of the NFL sometime.
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In comment 16297320 Eightshamrocks said:
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Since he has a guaranteed contract for next year they are going to
If the Giants do in fact take a QB in the top 5, Jones is not taking another snap as the starter barring injury. His time here is over. Don’t keep lying to yourself.
If Jones was a pending FA after this year the Giants wouldn’t be bringing him back.
Since the Giants won't be picking top 5, that takes care of that. Packer's, Patriots, and one other game will be w's. 5-12 or 6-11 finish. Book it.
Have you watched the Giants? They got 6 turnovers and the game was still down to the wire
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In comment 16296878 BrettNYG10 said:
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21% of Jones's passing touchdowns came from three starts, all of which came in his rookie year.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
Washington 12-22-2019: 5
Detroit 10-27-2019: 4
Jets 11-10-2019: 4
Total is 13, divided by the 62 total passing TDs is 20.97%.
Jones has had 16 games where he has thrown for two or more TDs. He's had 59 starts and played 60 games total. DeVito has two in as many starts.
It's insane, isn't it?
Drafting him was insane. Paying him twenty percent of the cap is a previously undiscovered acute indication of the illness likely to be known going forward as "Daniel Jones level of insanity"...
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Justin Fields ran for over 1100 yards and scored 8 TDs, in addition to the 17 passing TDs he threw.
You named one guy. Plus Jones is a better passer than Fields is.
Okay, how about Jalen Hurts? He ran for 760 yards and 13 TDs, on top of the 22 passing TDs. Lamar Jackson, in 12 games, ran for over 700 yards and 3 TDs, while throwing 17.
Jones totaled roughly 3900 yards and 22 TDs last year. There are 15 QBs who had more TDs, plus Jackson who missed 5 games. That list doesn't even include newcomers like CJ Stroud who already has 19 TDs this year, or Brock Purdy who has 20.
I'm sorry you're pot committed on Jones for whatever reason, but you should try watching the rest of the NFL sometime.
So you could only name 3 other players in the league who can compare to Jones as a runner. Sounds like you proved my point for me.
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
"Trying is the first step to failure, so never try."
QB;s better than Jones grow on Tree's? Don't agree with that at all. Jones currently is in the next level tire in the NFL after Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, etc. Top 15 without question.
Oh, I'd say that Top-15 ranking comes with plenty of questions.
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Regarding this debate. All the people who want Jones gone are clinging to the belief that the rookie they draft to replace him will somehow be magically guaranteed to be a better player than him. Aren't these people conveniently forgetting that high Draft pick QB's bust far more often than they pan out? How the Hell do you know that Williams, Maye, Pinnock, Daniels, etc. are going to be a better player than Jones? You are just assuming it because you have rose colored glasses on. All you guys hoping for a franchise QB in the mold of a Mahomes, etc. are 99% certain to be disappointed. The fact is the Mahomes of this world do not grow on trees. In fact, a better route to take is to build around a good QB like Jones by having strong line's on both side's of the ball, a good running game, and a good defense. Jone's has already proven he has a skill set with his running ability that you can win with(look at last season). Is he great at processing the field? No, but you can work around that by doing the things I just mentioned. The Draft is such a crapshoot, that all of those guys I mentioned could either be worse than Jones' or equal at best. I think you can win a SB with Jones, but obviously the team has to stay healthy, and Mike Kafka needs to learn how to call plays or be fired.
It's not magic.
The draft is not a "crapshoot".
Your entire opinion is predicated on a very sad "it could be worse so let's stick with what we've got" perspective.
Somebody here had a great post on why the draft is not a crapshoot a few weeks ago. I want to say it was cosmic. But I can't find it now.
It's so, so sad.
We're in some bizarro world. Some fan of another team wondered on reddit the other day, what a strange player to have a cult around him. I forget which subreddit it was, but fans around the league have noticed the unusual allegiance some NYG fans have for Jones.
We're in some bizarro world. Some fan of another team wondered on reddit the other day, what a strange player to have a cult around him. I forget which subreddit it was, but fans around the league have noticed the unusual allegiance some NYG fans have for Jones.
909 yards 2 TD 6 INT
Tyrod Taylor & Tommy DeVito have thrown 167 passes this season.
1,083 yards 8 TD 3 INT
Daniel Jones ran the ball 40 times this season
206 yards 1 TD
Taylor & DeVito have run the ball 38 times this season
175 yards & 1 TD
909 yards 2 TD 6 INT
Tyrod Taylor & Tommy DeVito have thrown 167 passes this season.
1,083 yards 8 TD 3 INT
Daniel Jones ran the ball 40 times this season
206 yards 1 TD
Taylor & DeVito have run the ball 38 times this season
175 yards & 1 TD
Again, not based off this season. Based off last season.
He's paid in the top 12.
What about his rookie year ?
Where was he a top 15 QB in 2019?
If your aunt comes up to you next year and tells you she now has balls are you going to admit you were wrong for calling her Aunt Martha all those years prior to her suddenly having testicles?
Btw, each of these scenarios have about the same likelihood of happening, but that’s besides the point
How about 30 passing TDs and 5 rushing tds. Because thats what should be expected from a 6th season with a contract like that.
There is without question he's not a top 15 QB. The only question is if he's top 32 which I'm not convinced he is.
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In comment 16296878 BrettNYG10 said:
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21% of Jones's passing touchdowns came from three starts, all of which came in his rookie year.
He is not a good passer.
Ooof. Is that actually true?!
Washington 12-22-2019: 5
Detroit 10-27-2019: 4
Jets 11-10-2019: 4
Total is 13, divided by the 62 total passing TDs is 20.97%.
Jones has had 16 games where he has thrown for two or more TDs. He's had 59 starts and played 60 games total. DeVito has two in as many starts.
It's insane, isn't it?
That is so unbelievable I had to look it up to verify it for myself Brett. Sure enough, you are correct.
Might be even worse to look at it this way:
24 passing touchdowns in his first 13 games.
38 passing touchdowns in his next 47 games.
All I can say is Daniel Jones and his agents did one hell of a job getting that 4-year contract. One hell of a job!
He was supposed to hit these marks in 2023. Remember? He was falling way short until the injuries. He's not productive. He'll never be a 35 TD pass QB. Without the running he's got nothing. And he's utterly robotic. It's hard to watch him play.
The only way Jones is Top 15 is if he is tied for 15th with like 18 other QBs.
And not for nothing, Devito is coming up his rear-view mirror pretty quickly for the backup job next season.
>"If he does this thing he's never done I bet you'll all be mad!"
???
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Next year, will all of you come on this site and admit you are wrong? Somehow I doubt it. You'll probably just pull a disappearing act ala Terps.
>"If he does this thing he's never done I bet you'll all be mad!"
???
I'm a Giants fan so I'd love Jones to be good! But I'm also a realist and not a homer, which apparently makes me a bad fan?
I think we should give Jones another 5 years to figure out what we have.
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In comment 16297432 Eightshamrocks said:
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Next year, will all of you come on this site and admit you are wrong? Somehow I doubt it. You'll probably just pull a disappearing act ala Terps.
>"If he does this thing he's never done I bet you'll all be mad!"
???
I'm a Giants fan so I'd love Jones to be good! But I'm also a realist and not a homer, which apparently makes me a bad fan?
I think we should give Jones another 5 years to figure out what we have.
Man it's the same thing as in 2003. You're a bad fan for wanting a new QB and wanting more than mediocrity.
It is an incredible phenomena.
Many won't be ready to cut the cord until they see Jones playing in football utopia. An OL that gives him four Mississippis. Top five receiving corp. And, of course, his BFF RB Barkley.
There is a saying in professional sports that you know a hall of famer when you see one. It's pretty damn clear.
It's the same with a franchise QB. You know one when you see one. And it doesn't require a perfect set of circumstances.
Unfortunately, our GM thought he saw one. Which to me is a red flag on Schoen. And begs the question why anyone is comfortable with him possibly finding a replacement?
The standards here have been pathetic.
He's. Not. A. Franchise. QB.
The sooner people here recognize that-& people in management/ownership-the better.
The standards here have been pathetic.
There are a significant number of fans who live in a NYG silo only. And rarely watch other teams. But when they do, they think the differences with a Herbert or Allen to Jones is negligible.
It's even more laughable on the college side. The college gameday thread is littered every Saturday with posters who are unable to see that a CW, Daniels, May, etc are infinity more talented than Jones. You can sense the "grass isn't always greener" play and they would rather go with audition #6.
He's. Not. A. Franchise. QB.
The sooner people here recognize that-& people in management/ownership-the better.
If I had to guess it's probably the draft day reaction. Jones was mocked by the national media, people looked at him as a joke to be drafted where he was. I don't feel any attachment to Jones, although I was happy for him after the Colts and Vikings wins, that wasn't nothing and it's something he earned here. I just don't think he carried the team, he was part of it. I'll never understand Jones being put in the same sentence as Eli.
But, I think a lot of fans hear all these QB prospects and they remember the Jones pick being mocked. Then they think, well what about Josh Rosen? Sam Darnold? Dwayne Haskins (RIP)? Baker Mayfield? Zach Wilson? Trey Lance?
Fans see all these other first round QB's who were highly touted and flamed out and think, well Jones already won a road playoff game. Why should I get excited about another first round QB?
I disagree with them, because I think you can only win a Super Bowl with an elite QB who makes everyone better, those guys are rare though. So, while I disagree I think that's what it is.
I also think fans don't like the idea of starting over at the position because they perceive it as punting on the next season.
But he's not a franchise QB. Some poster here said he's a top 15 QB in the league. Has that poster started partying already for Thanksgiving? Good Lord.
Let Schoen & Dabs get a QB next spring & start clean. I really hope we're not having daily Jones threads a couple of years from now.
It's so, so sad.
$100 says it was Ryan.
Your current handle will be banned by Christmas, for one thing. For another, it would take DJ a season and a half to put up those numbers. And that's IF he somehow managed to stay healthy that long.
What do you know about Terps leaving BBI last year? Based on your profile, you weren't even here for it.
This isn't directed as you, but I think what gets lost is that *most* players at that position are that way, and with Jones he's treated like a unicorn for it. There is no shortage of hard working good guy QBs in the NFL. They just don't get publicity and accolades for it.
I just feel sad that he's defending Jones so much.
So you could only name 3 other players in the league who can compare to Jones as a runner. Sounds like you proved my point for me.
I’m sure this argument makes sense to you, but since you seem fixated on single seasons, that also brings Kyler Murray into the mix. He’s got an 800+ rushing, 11 TD season on his resume.
The problem you have is that you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, and your criteria for ranking Jones top-15 is so narrow that it’s almost entirely worthless on its own. It’s only because of Jones’s running ability that a case can even be made for him to be a top-15 NFL QB, and even then you need to ignore his entire body of work in the NFL.
If you put credence in that stat, DeVito just played a game that was better than any Jones NFL performance.
Wow.
If you put credence in that stat, DeVito just played a game that was better than any Jones NFL performance.
Wow.
Numbers don't tell the whole story. There's the eye test too.
I would venture to say Jones' performance against the Vikings in the playoff last year was the best we've seen since Eli a decade ago.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
The people pretending they knew better only "thought better"
They didn't know.
We know this because these forums are littered with shit they said would happen that did not. Guessing correctly proves nothing.
Show me a media guy or GM that gets more than 50 correct.
You can't.
If the professionals working for teams worth billions struggle with this. Excuse me, if I am not impressed when the coin came up tails.
Maybe DeVito is lightning in a bottle.
Wouldn't it be great?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
I think we'd all agree that your post formatting stinks.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
The people pretending they knew better only "thought better"
They didn't know.
We know this because these forums are littered with shit they said would happen that did not. Guessing correctly proves nothing.
Show me a media guy or GM that gets more than 50 correct.
You can't.
If the professionals working for teams worth billions struggle with this. Excuse me, if I am not impressed when the coin came up tails.
Maybe DeVito is lightning in a bottle.
Wouldn't it be great?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
Plenty of observers outside the Giants orbit thought giving Jones a big contract was dumb, and when they gave it to him they mocked the Giants. And since, they've been proven right. Have some humility and accept it was a fuck up. There were warning signs and you decided to ignore them. Doesn't mean you were correct.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
The people pretending they knew better only "thought better"
They didn't know.
We know this because these forums are littered with shit they said would happen that did not. Guessing correctly proves nothing.
Show me a media guy or GM that gets more than 50 correct.
You can't.
If the professionals working for teams worth billions struggle with this. Excuse me, if I am not impressed when the coin came up tails.
Maybe DeVito is lightning in a bottle.
Wouldn't it be great?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
The job of these highly paid professionals is to make the correct decisions, not ones defensible to the fan base or even ones that look smart to outside observers.
The Jones contract was a terrible risk-reward. I posted about this at the time. Paying $40 million for a guy who hasn't thrown for a TD per game since his rookie year, has never led a top ten offense, and has clear flaws in his game was an awful risk-reward. Schoen even said they expected him to take the next step to earn his money--he got that forecast wrong.
Did the Giants believe Jones would take the next step in the passing game? Based on Schoen's comments, they did. The base rate of bad passers (which Jones has been--even last season) developing into good passers after their fourth season is very, very low. Bad risk-reward.
Or do they not think the passing game is important? I'd point to literally every contender other than maybe the Ravens as evidence you need an elite passing attack to win championships. If you think the supporting cast, and not Jones, is the issue here, how were you acquiring those weapons? An over-30 often injured Waller was the solution? A rookie Hyatt was the solution?
All of this thinking was stupid and based on hope, not facts or hard data. You people seem to think the Jones contract working out was a coin flip. It wasn't. While you were stupidly predicting Jones would be getting MVP nods, many of us accurately dissected 2022 for what it was. The Giants did not and wrongly bet they could take the next step when it was obvious to many of us the Giants were so far off from contention. And that reality smacked us in the face in week one.
I said this at the time: this off-season was bad and gave us no path to contention in the near future. Fortunately, this awful season gives us a shot at an elite QB and a real shot of developing into a contender if we get that right.
By that rationale they may as well give DeVito $160M. Who's to say he won't become a great player?
Is there anything fans of the NY Giants can come together about?
I think we can all agree that your posts like the one above are brutal.
By that rationale they may as well give DeVito $160M. Who's to say he won't become a great player?
I'm tired of hearing that $40 million is 'market rate'. Yeah, for guys who produce touchdowns and lead good offenses. Jones hasn't done either. It was a ridiculous contract the day it was signed.
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
I want to challenge the reasonable part. If Jones had consecutive productive seasons, you probably have an argument. But he didn't. He had one year where the staff tailored an offense to fit Jones's limited skills and managed him beautifully. And kudos to Jones for being able to execute.
But the reasonable compensation was a Trans Tag or a Franchise Tag. This would have put the onus back on Team Jones to prove 2022 wasn't an outlier and see how he reacted when the league adjusted to how Jones played in 2022.
We already had two Jones-level players on the roster: Taylor and DeVito. No need for a third, expensive version of that.
The original plan was sound: Taylor as the 2023 bridge to the 2024 draft.
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
That's where I am. And that's why everyone should be skeptical of how Schoen handles this QB situation moving forward.
If he sticks with Jones, and uses the draft to bring in more infantry, the gloves really need to come off. We are in DEFCON 1 territory again.
And if decides to draft a QB in the lottery, why should we trust him to get it right? It will be the most important decision he's ever made as a GM since he paid Team Jones.
Because Jones hasn’t improved in his key deficiency areas since he arrived in NY, I’d put the chances of a late career upsurge to be nearly nil.
Exactly. He spent some of his professional capital. I sure wouldn't have. You only get so much. It's not endleas. Now he must hit on some winners.
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If you enjoyed what happened last year and you backed Jones because of it.
So did the Coach, GM and owners.
They paid Jones because of it.
It was reasonable.
I want to challenge the reasonable part. If Jones had consecutive productive seasons, you probably have an argument. But he didn't. He had one year where the staff tailored an offense to fit Jones's limited skills and managed him beautifully. And kudos to Jones for being able to execute.
But the reasonable compensation was a Trans Tag or a Franchise Tag. This would have put the onus back on Team Jones to prove 2022 wasn't an outlier and see how he reacted when the league adjusted to how Jones played in 2022.
Morale and team chemistry matters. It was a done deal when Jones delivered on the field for all to see.
I will not even spend real energy or time on this with you.
It is pointless.
I would rather spend time talking to you about QB prospects. Neither one of us will convince the other in this. In the other topics, there is a lot of room for engagement.
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
Yes. Schoen was too quick to assume Jones was in the tier of Prescott/Cousins/Tannehill. The contract was fair if Jones could play at that level consistently, but he wasn't there. And if you'd ask Giant fans, they'd tell you all three of the players I mention above are overpaid.
I hope this is a hard lesson learned in self evaluation. And don't over emphasize a playoff win, because had the Giants drawn SF in the wildcard round they probably lose soundly.
Schoen has to manage in the confines of an imperfect situation.
There was no chance his boss would allow him to move off of Jones.
A good GM has to master the least bad choice paradox, and Schoen failed.
The most interesting question mark of the offseason will be whether Schoen will double down on that bet.
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But the the Giants lost the one score games instead of winning them and were picking in the top 5, Schoen wouldn’t have resigned Jones in my opinion. The record putting the Giants where they were in the draft cause Schoen to make a decision whether to bet on Jones or a bridge and he made the wrong bet.
The most interesting question mark of the offseason will be whether Schoen will double down on that bet.
Yes, the pressure has squarely moved from Jones to Schoen based on this season's events.
And NFW does Schoen not go QB in the draft early while waiting for Jones to rehab and redeem himself. It would be silly to throw away a promising GM career for a pipe-dream in DJ.
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
See, I don't even think Jones could even be successful elsewhere. He'll always be the same QB that he was here, no matter what team he's on.
He can give you a good game here or there like the Arizona game this year or the Minnesota playoff game. Yeah, that's cool and everything. He'll just always be that same QB: terrible pocket presence, fumbles, bad decisions, weak arm down the sidelines, injury prone.
In much more simpler terms: Daniel Jones is a back up QB.
Yeah and just not scoring points either with Jones as QB. My God. They'd be good for one TD and that was it. Look at the title of the thread.
The contract for Jones is bad, but it's not crippling. Schoen will draft a QB in 2024 and take his medicine with the Jones contract.
Even Dallas is worlds ahead of NYG
He had other choices, and he unnecessarily made a big monetary commitment to a player who had never shown any consistent improvement in consecutive years.
Schoen should have required Jones to show he could build upon the solid, if unspectacular year, he had in 2022.
And I would have defended it! At the very least I would have pushed the 'wait and see' approach :)
So what do we do, fire Schoen on the spot?
Certainly we can do better than an idiot as GM.
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
The DJFC and their willingness to bend over backwards for everything Jones…one of the weirdest things I have ever seen following this team.
Reddit LOL
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The Giants are already idiots for what they paid Jones
So what do we do, fire Schoen on the spot?
Certainly we can do better than an idiot as GM.
No, he won't be fired for this. But he burned some personal capital for certain unless Mara gave him a "Get Out Of Jail free" card by influencing him heavy to contract Jones (which I don't fully subscribe to).
And we are doing better than an idiot at GM...we got rid of Gettleman.
Great point here. Whenever you need to tout when you get an "out" of a big deal when the ink isn't even dry than you know you made a mistake.
Schoen made a big mistake. Now the test is if he will learn from it and fix it.
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I've never seen anything like it in any sport. A guy who has accomplished so little has one of the most fanatically devoted followings you'll ever come across, and for what? A 2022 season they all trumpet where Jones threw for 3200 yards and 15 TDs?? A 2023 where he's been outplayed by a older journeyman backup and a UDFA rookie?
Is it possible that Jones gets healthy, goes somewhere else, and establishes himself with a second-half career renaissance like a Jim Plunkett or a Rich Gannon? Sure. It could happen. How much would anyone be willing to pay to make that bet? How many seasons have to be spent hoping that Jones blossoms as a passer, while also staying healthy?
The DJFC and their willingness to bend over backwards for everything Jones…one of the weirdest things I have ever seen following this team.
They love him. Sometimes people become so infatuated with a public figure they lose all grip with reality.
I have felt this way with Jones since the end of 2020. I can't understand why we are spinning our wheels with Jones AND with Barkley. As Giants these guys have delivered worse football than we got in the Brown/Kanell/Graham years, which were always considered the worst for those of us that didn't experience the '70s.
I do not understand the connection to these players, and the fear of trying to improve. The fanbase and the media have lost all sense of what constitutes good football.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
Is there another example in NFL history or really even sports for that matter where a player was given such a long leash and magically turned it all around? At least with the same team who drafted him?
The contract for Jones is bad, but it's not crippling. Schoen will draft a QB in 2024 and take his medicine with the Jones contract.
Most of us absolutely think that should be the strategy.
I'm just not viewing it as a given with Schoen.
Hopefully Daboll can convince him because I think he's there.
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I think the DeVito performance really hurt Jones. He was on shaky ground before the ACL.
The contract for Jones is bad, but it's not crippling. Schoen will draft a QB in 2024 and take his medicine with the Jones contract.
Most of us absolutely think that should be the strategy.
I'm just not viewing it as a given with Schoen.
Hopefully Daboll can convince him because I think he's there.
What leads you to believe Daboll and Schoen aren't in lockstep?
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And we've got Philly in the division that are worlds ahead of NYG. And we debate Daniel Jones. What are we doing here?
I have felt this way with Jones since the end of 2020. I can't understand why we are spinning our wheels with Jones AND with Barkley. As Giants these guys have delivered worse football than we got in the Brown/Kanell/Graham years, which were always considered the worst for those of us that didn't experience the '70s.
I do not understand the connection to these players, and the fear of trying to improve. The fanbase and the media have lost all sense of what constitutes good football.
I get it with Barkley. Great college player from Penn State, really good pro who's fun to watch and very likeable and famous guy.
With Jones it baffles me. Don't you want to watch and enjoy a better product?
Is there another example in NFL history or really even sports for that matter where a player was given such a long leash and magically turned it all around? At least with the same team who drafted him?
Somebody is going to say Phil Simms, I'll bet. They try to make that comparison all the time, no matter how many times people explain that it's not a good comparison.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
Now, now.
Bingo. All we hear from the DJFC is that his supporting cast sucks, we’ll, what if it’s Jones that is the one holding everyone back? This isn’t just speculation either. After years of “his WR’s don’t get any separation!”, this year, Giants WRs rank near the top of the league in separation. So they’ve moved on to pressure.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer and should be the starter, but the fact that he was able to produce under the same pressure rates Jones was seeing dispels the myth that a QB can’t produce under those conditions.
That anyone still can’t see that is baffling.
The thought of doubling down or running it back with Jones in ‘24 is nauseating.
The only thing I know about Schoen, however, is he saw enough in Jones last year to make a considerable investment in him. And then openly expressed that he thought Jones was the solution for the future. He seemed very pleased.
So, I just don't know.
The wildcard is Mara. If Mara feels they made this investment in Jones, and the entire team collapsed around Jones, then Mara may pull the ownership card this time and want Schoen to give Jones yet another tryout.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
Even the best GM's make big mistakes. You just don't want to make big mistakes that you can't recover from. They can recover from the Jones contract but for example, Cleveland can't recover from the Watson contract -- they're stuck with him.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
Bingo. All we hear from the DJFC is that his supporting cast sucks, we’ll, what if it’s Jones that is the one holding everyone back? This isn’t just speculation either. After years of “his WR’s don’t get any separation!”, this year, Giants WRs rank near the top of the league in separation. So they’ve moved on to pressure.
No one is claiming DeVito is the answer and should be the starter, but the fact that he was able to produce under the same pressure rates Jones was seeing dispels the myth that a QB can’t produce under those conditions.
That anyone still can’t see that is baffling.
I certainly have been one that has said in the past that expecting success from the qb the Giants OL and receivers would be a bit much. I am not sure about other fans who have said this, but sustained success is what I was referring to. The NFL has shown that any given Sunday anything can happen. This is not meant to defend Jones, I am all done with the Jones era (before the injuries hit this year). I don’t think DeVito’s single game of success has dispelled anything.
I can’t imagine that many fans would expect sustained success from the qb getting sacked and hit as much as DeVito did on Sunday. Yes, the qb played a big role in the hits, sacks, and pressure much like Jones has
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Like it or not, the Daniel Jones contract is a new metric. For the next several off seasons, when people discuss how good or bad a prospective contract may be, it will be discussed in terms of how "Daniel Jones contract" it is. You will hear the question, "Is it Daniel Jones bad?" I've already heard it on reputable podcasts. "It's not a great contract, but it's not Daniel Jones bad". It is a metric for incompetence, a short hand descriptor for as bad as it gets when signing a QB. The Giants got so little production for their $100M I think it is fair to say it might be the worst contract in NFL history. 30th ranked or lower in most metrics, 2 TDs, one win. You have to laugh, because if you don't laugh, you'd cry. And Joe Schoen now has this enormous anvil on his resume. Sadly, because I do like him.
And when some of you guys come out here and insist it was a good contract, you really sound pathetic. Just fucking admit we threw a lot of dollars at a terrible player, already. The rest of the fucking world already knows this. They were saying it before the season started. You can't insist with a straight face it was a "good deal" or it was "good management". You just sound like a stooge.
Even the best GM's make big mistakes. You just don't want to make big mistakes that you can't recover from. They can recover from the Jones contract but for example, Cleveland can't recover from the Watson contract -- they're stuck with him.
I agree. I like Schoen. I hope he recovers. The Watson deal is bad. No doubt. But he was once close to elite and before he called it a season he played well in that last game. I don't know his medical outlook but if he comes back the same I could see him regaining his old form.
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In comment 16298233 Go Terps said:
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
Then you ran away.
Remember that?
No you here gloating because the of brutal start to the schedule and ridiculous injuries to the OL.
All pretending like you are the smart person and knew all along.
If only the Giants would listen to Terps.
You are just a volume posting troll, nothing more.
He ran.
I have no respect for his opinion and he litters this board with it.
He is a troll.
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In comment 16298306 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16298233 Go Terps said:
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
One of the many things you said that would never happen and it did. Schoen wasn't going to sign him, Then he wasn't going XXXX money and he did.
Then you ran away.
Remember that?
No you here gloating because the of brutal start to the schedule and ridiculous injuries to the OL.
All pretending like you are the smart person and knew all along.
If only the Giants would listen to Terps.
You are just a volume posting troll, nothing more.
He assumed Schoen was operating logically with proper analysis in mind.
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In comment 16298306 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16298233 Go Terps said:
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
One of the many things you said that would never happen and it did. Schoen wasn't going to sign him, Then he wasn't going XXXX money and he did.
Then you ran away.
Remember that?
No you here gloating because the of brutal start to the schedule and ridiculous injuries to the OL.
All pretending like you are the smart person and knew all along.
If only the Giants would listen to Terps.
You are just a volume posting troll, nothing more.
You want to rub someone's nose in the ground because he said Schoen shouldn't/wouldn't sign Daniel Jones?
And we all know now that he shouldn't have.
You are clueless.
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In comment 16298348 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16298306 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16298233 Go Terps said:
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
You'll always have the Minnesota game.
One of the many things you said that would never happen and it did. Schoen wasn't going to sign him, Then he wasn't going XXXX money and he did.
Then you ran away.
Remember that?
No you here gloating because the of brutal start to the schedule and ridiculous injuries to the OL.
All pretending like you are the smart person and knew all along.
If only the Giants would listen to Terps.
You are just a volume posting troll, nothing more.
You want to rub someone's nose in the ground because he said Schoen shouldn't/wouldn't sign Daniel Jones?
And we all know now that he shouldn't have.
You are clueless.
That is my point though. Terps has strong opinions on everything and he is wrong on at least half of them like everyone else.
So, he is going to be right often.
I am not impressed.
If he didn't run away before, I would have more tolerance.
I see a troll, sounds like you agree with Terps opinion on these things, so you defend him. That makes sense to me. Keep up the fight for the good ones. He deserves your support.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
The exception is a Jordan Love situation.
I think real change happened because of that. This is not even the second time I make that statement. I think out of all of them, it went to Terps head. His BBI minutes of fame, make him think more of himself than he is. I think he volume posts in threads(this is why he was reprimanded)the same shit over and over.
Terps got mad and left with his ball and bat. Because Terps is a troll, he probably has the highest reply rate of anyone on this site. He made a power play and Eric and the Mods didn't care. They never bow to big time time posters.
I love that.
He is back and I realize BBI was better when he was gone.
Is what it is.
I can live with it.
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But I will support sound opinions.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
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In comment 16298378 ThomasG said:
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But I will support sound opinions.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
Nothing wrong with discussing them all as QB prospects though.
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I think you're better than this, get your heart of the way of your brain.
Jones is done here, I get that. I don't like Terps at all. I think he is full of shit and when things didn't go his way.
He ran.
I have no respect for his opinion and he litters this board with it.
He is a troll.
Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Terps's departure last season. Trying to misrepresent that to satisfy your own disdain for him is just a bald-faced lie, and you know it.
As for the "volume posting" complaint, I think it's funny that you never seem to complain about the frequency with which DJ's most ardent defenders post on DJ threads.
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In comment 16298360 JonC said:
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I think you're better than this, get your heart of the way of your brain.
Jones is done here, I get that. I don't like Terps at all. I think he is full of shit and when things didn't go his way.
He ran.
I have no respect for his opinion and he litters this board with it.
He is a troll.
Everyone knows the circumstances surrounding Terps's departure last season. Trying to misrepresent that to satisfy your own disdain for him is just a bald-faced lie, and you know it.
As for the "volume posting" complaint, I think it's funny that you never seem to complain about the frequency with which DJ's most ardent defenders post on DJ threads.
My opinion and it is strictly an opinion, he left after a bunch things he said was going to happen, the exact opposite happened. I don't believe the timing is a coincidence. He used the gentle reprimand from the mod as an excuse to run. He usually has a much tougher skin.
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He has 13 total rush TDs in his career. He had 7 last year
For context Sam Darnold has 12 rush TDs on his career. Lamar Jackson has 29 rush TDs
So even if you want to give Jones the rush TD credit he has just 75 TDs on his career in 58 games and had 22 total TDs last season
It really doesn’t demonstrably change things about his career or season stats. And DeVito had a rush TD this year as well BTW
The rush TDs are great.
However, defenses have figured out if you take that away, Jones struggles to be productive throwing the football.
On top of that, Jones now has had two major injuries (neck in 2021 and ACL this year) for a QB who makes a living with his feet?
The narrative was Jones wasn't throwing TDs because the OL sucked and/or the coaches sucked.
Again, in his second start, an undrafted rookie who had limited practice snaps since being signed by the team just did something Jones couldn't do in four years. That's a huge red flag for Jones on top of everything else now.
That's my point.
DeVito may suck the rest of the way. He may be benched. He may be out of the NFL in a year or two.
But he has six TDs. Jones has two.
It is the same context used to explain away last year(easy schedule)
Jones had a brutal gauntlet without his LT. He was behind early and by big numbers. Eric that's waaaaay different from playing the COmmnders with a lead the entire game and how many turnovers?
How many turnovers did we produce in the first 5 games?
Anyone?
Do turnovers correlate strongly to winning? asking for a friend.
Jones is toast, he needed to win.
Jones failed.
There is some intellectual dishonesty going in regards to this situation, though.
Everyone just wants to be right, more important than enjoying Sunday to many.
It is all very gray.
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In comment 16298394 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16298378 ThomasG said:
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But I will support sound opinions.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
I agree that we do not. Daniel, Williams, Maye. I like Daniels, if I were a betting man I think we are going to move to draft Maye even if we win a few games.
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In comment 16298412 ThomasG said:
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In comment 16298394 Thegratefulhead said:
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In comment 16298378 ThomasG said:
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But I will support sound opinions.
And yours aren't very good gratefulhead.
My take on Jones appears wrong. Even if he had talent, it no longer matters.
We need another QB, time to move on.
People can call the signing a mistake.
It was, based on hindsight.
At the time, there was no possible he was not resigning with this team unless his demands were in orbit. I still think Schoen did an extremely good job. I feel like Schoen was at a position of weakness at the table. He was able to get the QB signed to deal with an out in 2 years. We can debate context as to the why that is nothing more than speculation until the sun goes out.
We won a playoff game and had enjoyable and unexpected season last year. I am not a SB or the season is a failure guy. This year has been bad so far, but it isn't over yet. I suspect we draft a QB early.
There will be a competition and Jones is going to go to work. It will be good for any rookie to see. Jones will likely beat the rookie out.
GOOD
Let him watch a few games until Jones injures himself and his career ends.
Hopefully, the rookie will not be a bust.
Statistically speaking, a bust more likely than not.
Even though I say that, I feel it would be criminal not to draft a QB high in 2024.
Agree with some of this, and plenty I don't.
Nevertheless, moving on from Jones is a good thought. And it doesn't matter that players sometimes bust...the Giants still need try and find their guy at QB.
Because we don't have him yet.
I agree that we do not. Daniel, Williams, Maye. I like Daniels, if I were a betting man I think we are going to move to draft Maye even if we win a few games.
I wouldn't move to draft him. I'd hope to have a shot at Daniels or McCarthy. Any lower, then Nix.
I do want better than Daniel Jones, I wasn't willing to throw him away until his body failed him. I believe an offense tailored to Jones would allow him to win. He was never going to be Aaron Rodgers or Herbert. Unlike many, I have NEVER tried to compare. I thought he had enough talent to win with. I hope the QB lottery works like everyone hopes.
It usually doesn't though.
I want DANIELS(Thanks BW, I have enjoyed watching his games(ones I can find enough of, don't like highlights)
These aren't the type of injuries for which teams dump a franchise quarterback.
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It's becoming increasingly clear that the supporting cast has been carrying a shit quarterback, and not the other way around.
It would not be good for the New York Giants if Jones finishes rehab early and starts the season opener and plays very well.
He is an injury risk and it would not be wise to miss the opportunity to move on.
But if Jones plays well you will disappear.
Kinda worth it.
C'mon man. You paraded around BBI last season and the offseason policing the forum like FMIC calling all of us who dare question the Giants paying Jones a moron. Yet you are still saying it was a "good contract." The contract is a disaster.
All of us, including Terps, still hoped for the best this season. We are Giant fans. He isn't a troll just because you don't agree with his thoughts on Jones and the organization.