I hate to root against the Giants, but this weeks game has huge implications with the loser most likely getting the 2nd overall pick.
First overall for all intents and purposes is locked up for Chicago via Carolina. Arizona with Kyler Murray and Chicago with Justin Fields don't appear to be as bad as their records would indicate. They also play each other later in the year. It would be fair to say they each get another win in which the Giants would hold the SOS tiebreaker over Arizona and would have a game lead on Chicago.
That leaves us with New England where we would have the SOS tiebreaker as well should they win another game.
In a lost season with some much of the future in question, will you be rooting for the Giants to lose this week?
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In comment 16297216 joeinpa said:
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In comment 16297115 Archer said:
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After enduring a miserable season with no prospects.
All a fan has to look forward to is the future.
If losing gives the franchise the best chance of improvement then rooting for a loss actually makes sense.
Conversely a meaningless win can retard growth.It only serves to make you feel good for the moments after the win, but then the reality sets in that this is a bad team.
Winning can create a false sense of achievement and discourage change. This team needs an overhaul and the best way to accomplish this via the draft.
Don't tell me that the draft position does not have value. You can look at draft pick trade values to understand the relative pick values. And in a draft that may have three transcendent players don't tell me that a top (3) pick doesn't have a premium value.
You can be a Giants fan and still hope for a loss.
The Giants have done plenty of losing for the better part of a decade, how has that been working out?
Just because an imbecile blew the #2 and #6 overall picks in consecutive years doesn't mean the opportunity wasn't there.
You mean the idiot that picked Andrew Thomas, or the idiot that drafted Evan Neal, assuming you think he s a bust.
But of course the opportunity is there, that s a fact, so is the idea that losing for high draft picks hasn’t worked all that well for several franchises.
It hasn't "not worked out" because of the draft position. It hasn't worked out because the organization has made one disastrous decision after another - including the draft.
Drafting higher gives you a better probability with every selection you make, plus allows you more opportunities to trade down. Again, this is all dependent on the decision-makers doing the correct things.
Sign me up for this!!!
There has never been any suggestions that they are in danger. And I doubt that there is a mandate that Dabol will be canned if they lose out.
Tanking can and has worked.
Look at the following teams;
Jacksonville Jaguars are now a top team after years of languish. That happened with the addition of Lawrence #1 pick.
How about Houston? They have rebuilt a team in a couple of years at the expense of Cleveland. The draft picks they acquired have rebuilt the team.
How about Miami. They trade Tunsil and used those picks to retool. Tua #5.
The Bengals went from perennial loser to a top team with the acquisition of Burrows #1 and Chase #5
Even Cleveland despite an awful trade for Watson had built their team with Myles Garrett #1 Denzel Ward #4.
I could go on and look at every good team and you will see that they are successful for drafting well and having success on their high picks.
Opportunity and good drafting turned these franchises around.
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That so many Giants fans are horrified by “terrible” fans living in the world of reality where clearly this team needs to upgrade at the QB position and putting themselves in the best position to do so would be the most ideal situation.
Winning games like the one this week at Washington and next week against the Pats are completely useless - what is the point?
They aren’t making a run at the playoffs - they need to keep any and all assets they have in the draft this upcoming year - this franchise has endured a decade of terrible football - what’s one more where they suck so bad they end up with the number 1 pick and get a chance to get the guy they really want without giving up anything to get him???
Where’s the downside to this argument ?
Daboll becomes far more likely to be fired. Again, what's good for draft position is bad for Daboll.
This team needs a franchise QB no doubt. But if it comes at the cost of Daboll going 3-14, he isn't long for the job here and he is likely incompetent. That's the issue.
Daboll has already shown he's competent. If you see the underlying issues with DJ...well, he won a lot of games last year, including a playoff game, despite that. He just won a game with a guy named Tommy DeVito as his QB.
Regardless of his record this year, because of the situation...a slew of injuries, particularly to the top 2 QBs on the depth chart, but also with losing the 2 best offensive players on this team for chunks at a time in Saquon and Thomas, Daboll will be back in 2024. Ownership is not going to move on from this regime regardless of how the rest of this season goes. Not going to happen. Mara has already made this fairly clear if you've been paying attention. Move on already from this narrative.
And if they hit on a QB, there is nothing preventing the Giants from going from even a 3-14 team this year to a playoff team next year. We see it all the time. The Texans are likely to be another example this year. They are 6-4 after going 3-13-1 last season. The Jaguars went 3-14 in 2021 and made the playoffs and won a playoff game last year. Our Giants went 4-13 in 2021 and did the same last year.
There is nothing wrong with Daboll the coach or his offensive system. It is the lack of talent, particularly the ones that have been pressed into action because of injury, that have caused them to not be able to execute that system.
Coaches can't throw the ball to the correct receiver on time and accurately for the QB. They can scheme it up perfectly, but the players have to execute it at a high level, and too many Giants players this year, both starters and their fill-ins, have not done so.
I'd love to live in this world where a coach sucks and should be fired if he has a team of players that are practice squad level-talents. Did Bill Belichick forget how to coach the last couple of years, or does he have a bad QB and other talent deficiencies? Dan Campbell is 8-2 this year...did he just figure out this coaching gig after going 3-13-1 in 2021, and then 9-8 last year? Or, I don't know...perhaps getting better players and having relative good health has allowed them to compete at a much higher level relative to then?
Please stop with this nonsense. The Giants have had approximately five thousand different iterations of their starting OL this year because of injuries and bad performance, and a third string undrafted rookie QB now learning on the job. Perhaps this is not the right season to say Daboll is "incompetent." He's learning what he has from some of these players and who might be part of the future when winning is attainable, and that's a good thing.
Barring some sort of franchise embarrassing Judge like post game rant - Daboll isn’t going anywhere.
If Daboll gets canned after this season, I think it’s b/c ownership demands it AND the NYG are way more F’ed than I could have ever imagined.
The flip side of the tanking approach is that a team that appears to be permanently stuck in the bottom tier is going to have a harder time attracting quality free agents and retaining its quality players. Losing cannot and should not ever become part of the culture of this team. We've lived through that in the 1970s and again recently and all the high draft picks that resulted made little difference.
This is where I'm at as well.
Zach Wilson went #2 overall. He perhaps wasn't a "can't miss" prospect but if you read the draft previews, he was pretty close. There are many other examples. A high pick doesn't always translate to success.
I always root for the Giants to win. I understand why some fans don't. To each his own on this point.
Barring some sort of franchise embarrassing Judge like post game rant - Daboll isn’t going anywhere.
If Daboll gets canned after this season, I think it’s b/c ownership demands it AND the NYG are way more F’ed than I could have ever imagined.
We think that, but the noise gets louder and the best reporters focus on distractions. If the Giants went 2-15, all bets are off. Just like if they go 3-14. These are historically bad seasons we are talking about.
And for those of you who say it wouldn't happen, it's happened for 3 straight coaching staffs.
They have had franchise QBs playing well over that period. We have not had the same. And we still don't, and until we do, nothing will change, just like it hasn't over that span.
It makes a massive difference. If DG didn't fuck it up in 2019 and punted on QB in that draft like he should've, because it was a shitty draft to try and get a franchise QB, and let Eli have his farewell tour in what would've been another bad year (like it was anyway), we'd probably be in year 4 of at least competing for the division with the Cowboys and Eagles with Justin Herbert as our QB.
You can't look at the draft picks being high or low in a bubble, it's what the decision makers do with them. The Browns were perennially bad and picking at the top of the draft. But they did shit like trading up for Trent Richardson and drafting Brandon Weeden and Mitchell Schwartz while trading down in the 3rd round for a late third and an extra 4th that gave them John Hughes and James Michael-Johnson when if they stood pat at #67 they could've taken Russell Wilson who went 8 picks later.
It's what you do with the picks you have... you have to make the right call when you have the chance, and the chances to draft that elite QB prospect is rare.
I at least trust Schoen as much as anyone in this very difficult task to identify the right guy, wherever in the draft he finds him.
Everyone knows that you can trade the #1 pick for multiple other picks. How you can argue the value of a top pick is beyond me.
And the probability of success is enhanced when you have two potential franchise QBs and a generational wide receiver.
The Giants can always choose to trade the pick for multiple picks this year and next. The picks or the player selected could be franchise altering.
I understand that players and coaches will always want to win. That is the nature of the game. Having played DI football, I have found that football players will always compete in everything. They hate losing.
Rooting for wins rather than rooting to improve a team is selfish behavior. You are placing your own want for gratification ahead of, and at the expense of building a team.
Show me how winning two meaningless games at the end of a season helped improve a team for the following year and I will rethink my preference for losing.
Give me one example of a team winning (5) games where they benefited from having won (2) games at the end of the season.
That’s true except that it’s not the md of the season. We’re just over the midpoint of the season. If it was 2-3 games left, I wouldn’t argue.
I think the team needs to be competitive. The Patriots are 2-8. P
Packers 4-6. Rams 4-6. If the Giants lose out and get blown out in every game, Daboll will be on notice at minimum.
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Entirely.
Barring some sort of franchise embarrassing Judge like post game rant - Daboll isn’t going anywhere.
If Daboll gets canned after this season, I think it’s b/c ownership demands it AND the NYG are way more F’ed than I could have ever imagined.
We think that, but the noise gets louder and the best reporters focus on distractions. If the Giants went 2-15, all bets are off. Just like if they go 3-14. These are historically bad seasons we are talking about.
And for those of you who say it wouldn't happen, it's happened for 3 straight coaching staffs.
And nothing really positive changed, and none of those guys won coach of the year in their first year here (or at all). All the more reason it won't happen this time. And this is the first time the coach and GM came in together and there is a real synergistic relationship between the two (also hasn't happened in a long time).
It will absolutely, positively, not happen this offseason. I'm 100% certain of that. You are just wrong on this one, Sean.
Who's to say Daboll wouldn't have something sitting at 2-11 and answering the same questions every week?
It's hard being a coach in this town when things are going that poorly.
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Winning games like the one this week at Washington and next week against the Pats are completely useless - what is the point?
Where’s the downside to this argument ?
No game - whether a win or a loss - is "useless". Wins, no matter how few in a season, have plenty of utility, anywhere from finding certain player strengths, weaknesses, other team trends, etc and how they were used successfully in game situations.
Wins are not "useless", especially to those with far more football intellect, and far more business saavy, than the "fans" rooting for losses.
Exactly. Lazy thinking is the only way one can think losing is good for the franchise... ask the Bears, Jets, Raiders, etc....
I will never root for a loss. If it happens, I'll kick the dog I do not have and then watch the next game.
The draft will take care of it's self. I think the Giants may actually have a real GM and Assist GM that can see past the decorations...
Whatever
Knowing where you are in the cycle and having a plan to turn the corner is what separates the good franchises from the bad ones.
We are at the part where finishing the season in position to be as close to the top of the draft as possible will help turn the corner.
Sometimes your fandom can get in the way of rational thinking.
I wonder if younger fans root for wins regardless of the record and older fans are taking a longer view.
I know when I was younger I only wanted wins, but my perspective changed after years of disappointment.
But at the end of the day - losing is what matters right now. Eeking out BS wins against teams turning the ball over 6 times isn’t going to help this team get closer to its goal of winning the Super Bowl.
If I had a top 2 pick, I would cash it in for future draft capital so we have ammo to go get a QB in what is shaping out to be another make or break year for Jones.
Knowing where you are in the cycle and having a plan to turn the corner is what separates the good franchises from the bad ones.
We are at the part where finishing the season in position to be as close to the top of the draft as possible will help turn the corner.
Sometimes your fandom can get in the way of rational thinking.
EVERY team?
The Washington Generals were something like 3 and 19,000 against the Globetrotters.
The story about the time the Generals decided they were going to win is epic.
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The Giants have done plenty of losing for the better part of a decade, how has that been working out?
Yes, and a huge reason for that is that the Giants don't have a good QB. They've been trotting out Eli Manning's corpse and Daniel Jones since 2017.
Why does anyone care what anyone is rooting for? Most of us want a good QB again. This is 2003. Did you really care that the Giants lost their last 8 games in 2003 to get in striking distance of Manning?
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Bengals used to lose for years, same with Browns and lions. Sure, they look better in recent years, but how many years of futility did they have and they still aren't power houses?
Failing doesn't guarantee success. Meanwhile, success builds on success.
Of success builds success please explain this year.
You need the coaching and gms in place. It's not necessarily linear. There are a ton of injuries to the team this year, but I think they will be in a better place next year.
I will never root for a loss. If it happens, I'll kick the dog I do not have and then watch the next game.
The draft will take care of it's self. I think the Giants may actually have a real GM and Assist GM that can see past the decorations...
Nice to see a fan with a brain here. Thanks for your loyalty....
Is that where we are now???
This team doesn't deserve your attention or money right now. If you believe otherwise, you're the sucker.
Giants fans like you are embarrassing.
Also appreciated the poster reminding us of the last two games before LT was selected. Didn’t know that history.
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Think of all the "misses" that have occurred with high draft picks. Giants took KT and Neal at 5 and 7 in the draft. KT appears to be coming into his own and the "fans" are already calling Neal a bust.
The flip side of the tanking approach is that a team that appears to be permanently stuck in the bottom tier is going to have a harder time attracting quality free agents and retaining its quality players. Losing cannot and should not ever become part of the culture of this team. We've lived through that in the 1970s and again recently and all the high draft picks that resulted made little difference.
This is where I'm at as well.
Zach Wilson went #2 overall. He perhaps wasn't a "can't miss" prospect but if you read the draft previews, he was pretty close. There are many other examples. A high pick doesn't always translate to success.
I always root for the Giants to win. I understand why some fans don't. To each his own on this point.
This is pretty much where I am. I could never cheer for a loss, but if it happens I know we will have a better draft.
That will cost them at least one future first round pick, plus at least 1-2 other Day 2 picks.
Not only are there people here saying that they would rather win a couple of games now only to have the cost to the team skyrocket to acquire one of those QBs, which is an interesting take in its own right...
But those same people are telling people who don't agree that they are bad fans and should go be fans of another team.
Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.
That will cost them at least one future first round pick, plus at least 1-2 other Day 2 picks.
Not only are there people here saying that they would rather win a couple of games now only to have the cost to the team skyrocket to acquire one of those QBs, which is an interesting take in its own right...
But those same people are telling people who don't agree that they are bad fans and should go be fans of another team.
Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.
I think what people are saying is a fan should not root for their team to lose. If that’s the case then you aren’t a fan of the team.
And there are no guarantees in the draft regardless of where you pick.
The difference between 6-7 draft slots is not going to make Schoen shy away from a trade to get the QB.
It's obvious at this point that Giants will likely finish with a better record than Carolina for certain, and maybe even Arizona and Chicago. Ya never know.
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and want one of the Top 3 QBs.
That will cost them at least one future first round pick, plus at least 1-2 other Day 2 picks.
Not only are there people here saying that they would rather win a couple of games now only to have the cost to the team skyrocket to acquire one of those QBs, which is an interesting take in its own right...
But those same people are telling people who don't agree that they are bad fans and should go be fans of another team.
Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.
I think what people are saying is a fan should not root for their team to lose. If that’s the case then you aren’t a fan of the team.
And there are no guarantees in the draft regardless of where you pick.
Nobody rooted for the team to be in the position it's in right now. If anyone was hoping for this in August, I tend to agree with your first statement.
But the toothpaste doesn't go back into the tube. A fan wants to see his team have success. And most of all big, sustained success. If a person believes that the most expedient path to big, sustained success is for the final score of games in the immediate term to show the NYG with a lesser number, what harm does that do to you or anyone else?
I haven't searched far and wide in these threads, but I've yet to see anyone suggest that anything is guaranteed with a high draft pick. That's a straw-man that needs to die.