I honestly never knew much about the JFK conspiracy theories until my junior year of college when a friend who was a criminal justice major told me about it. He was convinced it was an inside job. This was around 1989 or 1990. Then after college Oliver Stone's movie JFK came out, and while not entirely credible it at least succeeded in bring a lot of attention of the topic to a younger generation who were too young to remember it.
Of going to college in the early 1970s and attending several conspiracy presentations. By the time I graduated I knew by heart all about the grassy knoll, the umbrella man, the magic bullet, Oswald’s photo with a rifle, Jack Ruby’s club and it’s ties with the mafia, and on and on and on.
The strange thing is this: every time a conspiracy theory went down in flames, another one would magically appear. I swear, it was like whack-a-mole. My message to the youngest generation: wake me up when you have bonafide, irrefutable 100% proof that Oswald was not the lone killer. Or, better yet, that Oswald was the stooge for the Russians, or the Cubans, or the Mafia, or the CIA, or disgruntled Bay of Pigs veterans, or all of the above.
The truth would have come out when no one could be damaged by it.
Good point. However, maybe their children or grandchildren would be in danger? I have no idea. It’s interesting that a lot of people who might have been involved or knew someone that might have been involved,mysteriously died.
The truth would have come out when no one could be damaged by it.
Good point. However, maybe their children or grandchildren would be in danger? I have no idea. It’s interesting that a lot of people who might have been involved or knew someone that might have been involved,mysteriously died.
The idea that a bunch of witnesses mysteriously died has been debunked.
How many hundreds of people had to be involved to not only kill the president and bury all the evidence, but also wipe out scores of witnesses with nobody ever getting caught or talking?
Sponsoring coups and foreign assassination plots have all come to light, but there is a belief that the CIA continues to hide all the evidence of this crime?
Sometimes when there is zero evidence to support an opinion, its time to reconsider it.
“Best Evidence” (I think the author’s name was David Lifton).
It focused on the “chain of custody” for Kennedy’s body from Dallas to Bethesda and the massive contradictions between eye witness reports from Dallas and the “official” autopsy. He makes a compelling case for people to ponder over.
“Best Evidence” (I think the author’s name was David Lifton).
It focused on the “chain of custody” for Kennedy’s body from Dallas to Bethesda and the massive contradictions between eye witness reports from Dallas and the “official” autopsy. He makes a compelling case for people to ponder over.
Correct. The doctors in Dallas saw JFK 10 minutes after being shot and they all had similar reports. They had a pretty good idea of what happened especially after they saw the x-rays from Bethesda.
I'm severely bothered by what I learned from history books/teachers about JFK's assassination and subsequent information. After looking at all the facts, I don't think there should be any questions about JFKs death. Let's just say there was no magic bullet.
Correct. The doctors in Dallas saw JFK 10 minutes after being shot and they all had similar reports. They had a pretty good idea of what happened especially after they saw the x-rays from Bethesda.
I'm severely bothered by what I learned from history books/teachers about JFK's assassination and subsequent information. After looking at all the facts, I don't think there should be any questions about JFKs death. Let's just say there was no magic bullet. [/quote]
You should reference Michael Haag and Lucas Haag. They are Ballistics experts and did extensive testing with a Mannlicher-Carcano identical to the one Oswald used.
Easy to find them on YouTube. Have fun.
One point never gets the attention it should. Why did Ruby kill Oswald?
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
While there is interesting circumstantial indication of a conspiracy, there really isn't much compelling testimony by conspiracy actors or people in the know, to jibe with the evidence. Theories are all over the place, from the mafia to Cubans to CIA to Russians. It doesn’t make sense as a whole picture.
One point never gets the attention it should. Why did Ruby kill Oswald?
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
True enough.
But another fact that doesn’t get near the attention that it deserves is LHO’s undisputed attempt on the life of General Walker (JFK’s ideological opposite) weeks earlier.
Much more consistent with the attention-seeking, troubled loner than patsy/conspirator working with the mob/intelligence/pissed off Cubans, etc.
Since the assassination until the current day we have heard countless conspiracy theories about the assassination with supporting pieces of evidence to support those theories.
We have also had people come along to disprove one or more of those pieces of evidence. They then falsely conclude that because they disproved a few pieces of evidence that Oswald was the lone gunman.
Perhaps Oswald was a good marksman. Perhaps it can even be proven that the Arlen Spector magic bullet theory was true. None of this proves that there wasn't a conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK. Even if we cannot connect all the dots 60 years later there were too many anomalous events regarding the assassinations, too many convenient deaths of possible witnesses to assume otherwise.
The most damning bit of information was Oswald himself. This is an ex-marine who defected to the Soviet Union. He then changed his mind and returned to the United States along with his Russian bride where all was forgiven. Not only that, he was welcomed by the anti-communist Russian community in Texas.
If you were alive in 1963, you would realize that things like that simply did not happen. The Soviet Union in 1963 was as feared and loathed as Al Qaeda was in 2001. A communist sympathiser back then, at the very least would have been blacklisted. A former serviceman would have been prosecuted. We all saw what happened to John Walker Lindh. At a time when those accused by the government had little or no protections, Oswald should have been treated just as harshly.
Unless he was a government agent. We know that while he was friends with George De Mohrenschildt, he was still pretending to be a communist. One would have to have their head in the sand to think Oswald was anything other than a government agent prior to the assasination.
Perhaps this is all coincidence.
Perhaps he later went off his rocker and decided to assassinate the president.
Perhaps he thought the best way to do so was to mail order an archaic weapon that he had no training on when he could have bought a better weapon in any sporting goods store.
Perhaps its a coincidence that he was killed in a police station by a mobster a few days later.
Perhaps the witnesses in Dealey plaza who heard shots and saw flashes from the Grassy Knoll didn't know what they were talking about.
Perhaps its a coincidence that Lee Bowers, possibly the best witness died suddenly at the ripe old age of 41.
Perhaps the quick untimely deaths of many other possible witnesses was also a coincidence.
Some may say, how could such a secret be kept? Easy. It was 1963. There was no internet, there were no cable news networks and there were no widely distributed counterculture newspapers and magazines. There was only CBS, NBC, ABC, Time-Life, The New York Times, a few others and the Soviet Union pointing nuclear missiles at us. When it came to national security the news outlets of the time printed what the government wanted them to. Anyone who disputed the government /Warren commision narrative was branded a nut case, a communist or worse.
One point never gets the attention it should. Why did Ruby kill Oswald?
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
True enough.
But another fact that doesn’t get near the attention that it deserves is LHO’s undisputed attempt on the life of General Walker (JFK’s ideological opposite) weeks earlier.
Much more consistent with the attention-seeking, troubled loner than patsy/conspirator working with the mob/intelligence/pissed off Cubans, etc.
Yes. If this account is true, it pretty much cements Oswald as the lone gunman. How reliable is this accounting?
Lots of tests and recreations couldn’t reproduce the supposed behavior of that bullet. But I saw a documentary or TV news special that drilled down on the tests. It said Oswald used an unusual kind of round not readily available in the U.S. When they performed a test/recreation with the same round Oswald used, the bullet behaved EXACTLY as the magic bullet theory said it would, and the simulated injuries were entirely consistent with the wounds we know of.
The magic bullet is the least of the problems with the Kennedy assassination accounts. There are other problems, much bigger.
Lots of tests and recreations couldn’t reproduce the supposed behavior of that bullet. But I saw a documentary or TV news special that drilled down on the tests. It said Oswald used an unusual kind of round not readily available in the U.S. When they performed a test/recreation with the same round Oswald used, the bullet behaved EXACTLY as the magic bullet theory said it would, and the simulated injuries were entirely consistent with the wounds we know of.
The magic bullet is the least of the problems with the Kennedy assassination accounts. There are other problems, much bigger.
In fact, there is no magic bullet. The first shot that hit Kennedy and then the Governor is easily explained. Check out that Peter Jennings documentary mentioned here or the other thread.
of government actors to murder the President through a grand conspiracy and manage to keep proof of it secret.
Lone gunman theory is boring. Twist up a narrative where this guy was in conspiracy-cahoots with that guy, and people will kick it around forever. The well never runs dry.
If there were multiple shooters at different locations near the Plaza, how did they manage to shoot at near the exact same time - we are talking 1963. Hand held radios that were the size of milk cartons? Did they key off the 1st shot?
The only 3 shots in Dealy Plaza that day came from Oswald's rifle shooting from the 6th floor in the depository building.
Watch the first 5 minutes or so of this link of a Peter Jennings/ABC report as they recreate the scene with computer imagery. And it shows where the shots came from and how it went down.
I realize people like a good mystery and to hypothesize about some intricate plot and cover up(s) from a myriad of parties. But this was simply Oswald and nobody else in this shooting.
of the conspiracy isn't really who pulled the trigger or how many people or from where, it's who pulled the strings.
People believe what they want, and often faced with evidence or lack thereof confirmation bias sets in and they believe what they are inclined to believe.
I won't get in to detail on my theories on this or what is true or false only to say we see this theory in action n society today since 2020 (blatantly) but throughout history.
Mark Twain had a quote "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - and that cuts both ways and is "virally" prevalent in society.
The “magic bullet” theory has been debunked for two decades
Anyone still claiming that one bullet could not have caused all of those wounds is someone who either a) never read up on it, or b) doesn’t want the truth.
I don’t know how any logical person could, in good faith, actually study this for any period of time and believe dozens of not hundreds of government employees, mob clowns and Cuban Rambo’s could have executed this plot, get hundreds of more people involved in cover up, and kept it secret for decades.
The CIA couldn’t keep plots to kill Castro secret. If three people in the mob knew anything, two of them rushed to the FBI to rat first. These are not the Uber-talented black ops organizations people like to think they are. There is simply no way tons of people knew about this, yet nobody came forward with even a plausible story for how it happened or who was involved.
my belief and it has proven out. If more than one knows, there is no secret. I suppose never say never, but...
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
my belief and it has proven out. If more than one knows, there is no secret. I suppose never say never, but...
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
All I'll say is this, and I'm not professing to know the truth. However, I think you and a lot of people, underestimate how powerful the CIA actually is and how influential they are in ways many people may not consider. it's a rabbit hole you can down and never come out of because there is so much conjecture, lies, propaganda, etc, so it's hard to know what is legit crackpot hair brain conspiracy theory, but there is also much that has been verified - look into things like operation paperclip/project overcast, MKULTRA, operation mockingbird, project mockingbird, and on and on and on.
If your reaction is knee jerk is "where is your tin foil hat" fair enough, your prerogative, I am not trying to convince you of anything and I truly do not care what you believe - yet still I offer my opinion.
But if you look for information and the acknowledged "operations" I mentioned (and it's out there) and once you do that, connecting the dots from the CIA to things like JFK could absolutely be plausible (some say there is direct documentary/testimonial evidence to support it) and it has nothing to do with "3 people knowing a secret"
anyway, I did not intend to take this thread in an unintended place - enjoy Thanksgiving.
my belief and it has proven out. If more than one knows, there is no secret. I suppose never say never, but...
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
All I'll say is this, and I'm not professing to know the truth. However, I think you and a lot of people, underestimate how powerful the CIA actually is and how influential they are in ways many people may not consider. it's a rabbit hole you can down and never come out of because there is so much conjecture, lies, propaganda, etc, so it's hard to know what is legit crackpot hair brain conspiracy theory, but there is also much that has been verified - look into things like operation paperclip/project overcast, MKULTRA, operation mockingbird, project mockingbird, and on and on and on.
If your reaction is knee jerk is "where is your tin foil hat" fair enough, your prerogative, I am not trying to convince you of anything and I truly do not care what you believe - yet still I offer my opinion.
But if you look for information and the acknowledged "operations" I mentioned (and it's out there) and once you do that, connecting the dots from the CIA to things like JFK could absolutely be plausible (some say there is direct documentary/testimonial evidence to support it) and it has nothing to do with "3 people knowing a secret"
anyway, I did not intend to take this thread in an unintended place - enjoy Thanksgiving.
I agree that people underestimate the CIA. There is a reason Chuck Schumer said what he said and I will leave there. Their charter says that they are not to operate within the US....ha ha ha.
Haha, right...the Mob or the CIA plotted the whole thing to
I believe Oswald acted alone, but the one I could never shake for awhile was the mob-Marcello in particular-somehow being involved considering how hard RFK went after them.
RE: Haha, right...the Mob or the CIA plotted the whole thing to
I always thought there were a lot of holes in the official version of the murder when it came out.
I recall at the time were rumors and whispers that Papa Joe Kennedy promised favors to the Chicago Mob if they 'brought out the dead vote' in the 1960 Presidential election. The margin of victory in Illinois was very close, and Chicago's reputation for sketchy election maneuvers was known.
When the Old Bootlegger Joe Kennedy didn't deliver on his promised favors, Sam Giancana got angry. And now Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General tried to put the Chicago Syndicate out of business. So Giancana took action.
I've always felt that the Mafia was the only outfit with the balls to put a Contract on the President. Lee Harvey Oswald just happened to be 'The Patsy' as he himself seemed to know the frame was in. Jack Ruby's club had ties to Giancana. So did Judith Campbell Exner.
I don't believe that Oswald could get off 3 accurate shots from that second-hand bolt-action Italian rifle. Expert Marksman have tried, with mixed results.
I'll never forget that fateful day. We'll probably never know what really happened.
and my first impression is that all these interview subjects who were young resident doctors at Parkland Hosptial in 1963 look like some of the youngest, most vibrant 85-year-olds I've ever seen.
is that if you assume Oswald was involved on any level, the two most likely scenarios are that he was a lone gunman acting of his own volition, or that the government was behind it.
Reason being, the parade route wasn't made public in Dallas until the day before the shooting. So either Oswald, employed at the TSBD reads about it in the paper and has the idea the day before, or someone in the government knows about it weeks and advance and recruits Oswald long beforehand. Then Oswald manages to get himself hired at the TSBD (in a building right alongside the motorcade route) less than week in advance of he shooting. This would mean that Ruth Payne was also in on the conspiracy, since she's always claimed she was the one who told Oswald about the job opening at the TSBD.
The most damning bit of information was Oswald himself. This is an ex-marine who defected to the Soviet Union. He then changed his mind and returned to the United States along with his Russian bride where all was forgiven. Not only that, he was welcomed by the anti-communist Russian community in Texas.
This is exactly how the CIA selects people. "IF" Oswald was a patsy, he was carefully selected based upon his background.
1) WH announces in September '63 that JFK is making a trip to TX in November.
2) LHO gets hired at TSBD in October '63.
3) Following a back & forth between Bruno-a JFK advance man-& Governor Connelly over where JFK is going to speak in Dallas, the Trade Mart is selected in Connelly's favor over another venue in Dallas that would have had the motorcade go a totally different route in Dallas & not have even gone past the TSBD.
4) JFK's motorcade route is published on 11/20/63.
is that if you assume Oswald was involved on any level, the two most likely scenarios are that he was a lone gunman acting of his own volition, or that the government was behind it.
Reason being, the parade route wasn't made public in Dallas until the day before the shooting. So either Oswald, employed at the TSBD reads about it in the paper and has the idea the day before, or someone in the government knows about it weeks and advance and recruits Oswald long beforehand. Then Oswald manages to get himself hired at the TSBD (in a building right alongside the motorcade route) less than week in advance of he shooting. This would mean that Ruth Payne was also in on the conspiracy, since she's always claimed she was the one who told Oswald about the job opening at the TSBD.
Probably need to come up with a different theory.
Oswald needed money and a job. He did at least one other interview (not the TSBD nor anywhere near it) and didn't get that job. His wife Marina, and the woman she was staying with Ruth Paine, then inquired with the TSBD to see if they had any openings, got Oswald a quick interview and they gave him a job stacking books. Does this sound like how an intricate conspiracy plan is hatched, involving the government recruiting him in advance and placing him in that building?
The parade route was published several days before. And since it was widely discussed that Kennedy was heading to the Trade Mart from Main St this route was not a secret to Oswald, the workers in the TSBD and the other thousand people that planned on getting a glimpse of the President that day.
Most likely a disgruntled Oswald heard about the presidential visit earlier in the week and that it was coming close to his new place of work at the TSBD. And his "lone-nut" thinking kicked into action to bring his rifle that fateful day to take a few shots.
".....And they relied upon a moron loser like Lee Harvey Oswald to carry it out......"
read that comment. and read it again, and again and again and read it a million times and if the light doesn't come in your brain about exactly the kind of person a government agency would recruit to "radicalize" then your knee jerk reaction to lol haha is exactly why you are inclined to believe things like when the government tells you something is "safe and effective". Just look at Michigan and who the targets were there. My stance has always been I don't know, but the more I learn I feel like the "official account" is more likely than not - not 100% of the story or again it's not who pulled the trigger, but who pulled the strings that is the real story.
I'm not going to comment anymore on this thread because people without the proper knowledge speak in absolutes and act like things are "settled science" and it's all so reminiscent of other recent events that people get emotional about and feel like they know because they read it somewhere.
no one on here knows. there is logic, there is conjecture and there is possibility. but anyone speaking in absolutes on this topic is not speaking from authority.
And also I'm not going to say anymore because this is venturing in to an area of discussion that is forbidden on this site.
Then don't comment since you don't like the answers you hear.
People can speak in absolutes when the actual evidence and knowledge from that investigation is being referenced. And not sure why you need some authority figure to bless it for you differently than they already have.
It's okay for you not to believe what went down that day, but that doesn't make the known facts any different.
As an additional data point, here is an interview that aired on CSPAN with the guy that got LHO the job at the School Book Dedository. Wesley Frazier used to give Oswald rides to work. On the fateful day, Frazier swears that the "package" LHO was carrying was indeed curtain rods and could not have contained a Carbine Rifle with a scope, even if the stock were removed.
CSPAN did a whole series of interviews with the Sixth Floor Museum staff and with various other contributors....if you care to follow their research.
*Frazier testified to police that Oswald told him there were curtain rods in the brown packaging in the back of the car they took to work that day.
*Oswald testified to police, after he was caught, that he never was carrying any type of package at all with curtain rods in it, only his normal lunch bag.
*The brown packaging was found on the 6th floor.
*The rifle was found on the 6th floor.
*No curtain rods were ever found.
RE: Clearing up a few points about the curtain rods from the investigation
*Frazier testified to police that Oswald told him there were curtain rods in the brown packaging in the back of the car they took to work that day.
*Oswald testified to police, after he was caught, that he never was carrying any type of package at all with curtain rods in it, only his normal lunch bag.
*The brown packaging was found on the 6th floor.
*The rifle was found on the 6th floor.
*No curtain rods were ever found.
The Peter Jennings film goes a long way to cementing the lone gunman theory, and I personally lean that way based on what I have heard, but there are three facts it doesn't quite explain, as I recall.
1. Kennedy's neck wound *looks* like an entrance wound.
2. Kennedy's wound in the back of the head *looks* like an exit wound.
3. Kennedy's head lurches back when he is struck by the head shot.
I don't think any of these is a theory-killer, but they do lead to persistent questions about a shooter in front of the motorcade. Now that we have advanced analytical capabilities, far beyond even the early 00s, it is strange nobody has mapped out the assassination scene to explain, with the use of physics experts, ballistics experts and most importantly experts in forensic pathology, how these 3 things may have happened if Oswald was the lone gunman.
That is a big stretch saying any of those 3 items are facts.
Besides they found the bullets that made those wounds and were able to run tests to show those bullets were indeed fired from the rifle found up on the 6th floor.
No other bullets were found. No other guns were found.
RE: That is a big stretch saying any of those 3 items are facts.
Besides they found the bullets that made those wounds and were able to run tests to show those bullets were indeed fired from the rifle found up on the 6th floor.
No other bullets were found. No other guns were found.
but those are facts. We have film of the assassination. We see Kennedy grab the front of his neck. And then the back of his head is blown off. We see his head lurch backwards. A team of highly qualified doctors then observed him in Dallas and concluded based on the wounds (maybe wrongly) that the neck wound was an entrance wound and the gaping hole near the back of his head was an exit wound. Plus we have photographs of the neck wound and back of his head which agree with the assessments made by those doctors.
Again, I'm not saying this is a conspiracy, but it would be nice to have an updated analysis, trace the trajectory again from the book depository, and answer the question can that gun with those bullets create an exit wound in the neck of that shape, given the trajectory? Can that gun with those bullets create the wound in Kennedy's head, given the angle and trajectory? The Jennings doc basically concludes the head wound is an entrance wound. Perhaps we are seeing both an entrance and exit wound in the single massive wound in Kennedy's head? But we have the technology to narrow the question, given that we have imaging of the event. And same for the motion of the head during the kill shot.
The doctors that examined him in Dallas made some errors
in their prelim views. Like the neck wound, if shot came from front then how does it go up when it leaves thru the back? It can’t unless someone shot at him from laying down in the street. It also couldn’t have hit Connally if came from the front. And we have the Zapruder film that shows both guys were hit basically at the same time. The trajectory was downward meaning a shot from above and behind. The Kennedy head wound was massive so not sure any easy conclusion was done but I honestly don’t recall what I read years ago on that.
And by the way, there are plenty of reports in Warren Comm from experts, ballistics and the autopsy doctors. Go through some of it. It’s tough to read but interesting.
From what was observed and concluded by these experts, two bullets found that struck the President and Connally came from same gun and from the one fired in the TSBD. We also know that same gun was fired 3 times. No one ever heard or concluded to any other additional guns going off so how could there be someone else shooting in Dealy Plaza that day?
There was even another govt commission in late 1970s that came to a possible view that 4 shots were heard on a police microphone. Then it was reviewed by experts afterwards and completely debunked their conclusions which were withdrawn.
There were only 3 shots that day. And Oswald’s rifle fired all 3.
RE: The doctors that examined him in Dallas made some errors
in their prelim views. Like the neck wound, if shot came from front then how does it go up when it leaves thru the back? It can’t unless someone shot at him from laying down in the street. It also couldn’t have hit Connally if came from the front. And we have the Zapruder film that shows both guys were hit basically at the same time. The trajectory was downward meaning a shot from above and behind. The Kennedy head wound was massive so not sure any easy conclusion was done but I honestly don’t recall what I read years ago on that.
And by the way, there are plenty of reports in Warren Comm from experts, ballistics and the autopsy doctors. Go through some of it. It’s tough to read but interesting.
From what was observed and concluded by these experts, two bullets found that struck the President and Connally came from same gun and from the one fired in the TSBD. We also know that same gun was fired 3 times. No one ever heard or concluded to any other additional guns going off so how could there be someone else shooting in Dealy Plaza that day?
There was even another govt commission in late 1970s that came to a possible view that 4 shots were heard on a police microphone. Then it was reviewed by experts afterwards and completely debunked their conclusions which were withdrawn.
There were only 3 shots that day. And Oswald’s rifle fired all 3.
All reasonable. Nevertheless, we have footage, it's basic physics, it would be nice to put these three questions to bed, and end the conspiracy talk.
Exactly. The other thread was about remembering. Most on here weren’t alive or remembered.
Check out the Solving JFK podcast. Format is well done, and there are great audio clips I hadn't heard before.
The strange thing is this: every time a conspiracy theory went down in flames, another one would magically appear. I swear, it was like whack-a-mole. My message to the youngest generation: wake me up when you have bonafide, irrefutable 100% proof that Oswald was not the lone killer. Or, better yet, that Oswald was the stooge for the Russians, or the Cubans, or the Mafia, or the CIA, or disgruntled Bay of Pigs veterans, or all of the above.
Good point. However, maybe their children or grandchildren would be in danger? I have no idea. It’s interesting that a lot of people who might have been involved or knew someone that might have been involved,mysteriously died.
Quote:
The truth would have come out when no one could be damaged by it.
Good point. However, maybe their children or grandchildren would be in danger? I have no idea. It’s interesting that a lot of people who might have been involved or knew someone that might have been involved,mysteriously died.
The idea that a bunch of witnesses mysteriously died has been debunked.
How many hundreds of people had to be involved to not only kill the president and bury all the evidence, but also wipe out scores of witnesses with nobody ever getting caught or talking?
Sponsoring coups and foreign assassination plots have all come to light, but there is a belief that the CIA continues to hide all the evidence of this crime?
Sometimes when there is zero evidence to support an opinion, its time to reconsider it.
It focused on the “chain of custody” for Kennedy’s body from Dallas to Bethesda and the massive contradictions between eye witness reports from Dallas and the “official” autopsy. He makes a compelling case for people to ponder over.
It focused on the “chain of custody” for Kennedy’s body from Dallas to Bethesda and the massive contradictions between eye witness reports from Dallas and the “official” autopsy. He makes a compelling case for people to ponder over.
Correct. The doctors in Dallas saw JFK 10 minutes after being shot and they all had similar reports. They had a pretty good idea of what happened especially after they saw the x-rays from Bethesda.
I'm severely bothered by what I learned from history books/teachers about JFK's assassination and subsequent information. After looking at all the facts, I don't think there should be any questions about JFKs death. Let's just say there was no magic bullet.
Oswald did it. There is nothing worse than revisionist history.
Correct. The doctors in Dallas saw JFK 10 minutes after being shot and they all had similar reports. They had a pretty good idea of what happened especially after they saw the x-rays from Bethesda.
I'm severely bothered by what I learned from history books/teachers about JFK's assassination and subsequent information. After looking at all the facts, I don't think there should be any questions about JFKs death. Let's just say there was no magic bullet. [/quote]
You should reference Michael Haag and Lucas Haag. They are Ballistics experts and did extensive testing with a Mannlicher-Carcano identical to the one Oswald used.
Easy to find them on YouTube. Have fun.
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
True enough.
But another fact that doesn’t get near the attention that it deserves is LHO’s undisputed attempt on the life of General Walker (JFK’s ideological opposite) weeks earlier.
Much more consistent with the attention-seeking, troubled loner than patsy/conspirator working with the mob/intelligence/pissed off Cubans, etc.
Oswald did it. There is nothing worse than revisionist history.
Dorothy Kilgallen knew who was involved
We have also had people come along to disprove one or more of those pieces of evidence. They then falsely conclude that because they disproved a few pieces of evidence that Oswald was the lone gunman.
Perhaps Oswald was a good marksman. Perhaps it can even be proven that the Arlen Spector magic bullet theory was true. None of this proves that there wasn't a conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK. Even if we cannot connect all the dots 60 years later there were too many anomalous events regarding the assassinations, too many convenient deaths of possible witnesses to assume otherwise.
The most damning bit of information was Oswald himself. This is an ex-marine who defected to the Soviet Union. He then changed his mind and returned to the United States along with his Russian bride where all was forgiven. Not only that, he was welcomed by the anti-communist Russian community in Texas.
If you were alive in 1963, you would realize that things like that simply did not happen. The Soviet Union in 1963 was as feared and loathed as Al Qaeda was in 2001. A communist sympathiser back then, at the very least would have been blacklisted. A former serviceman would have been prosecuted. We all saw what happened to John Walker Lindh. At a time when those accused by the government had little or no protections, Oswald should have been treated just as harshly.
Unless he was a government agent. We know that while he was friends with George De Mohrenschildt, he was still pretending to be a communist. One would have to have their head in the sand to think Oswald was anything other than a government agent prior to the assasination.
Perhaps this is all coincidence.
Perhaps he later went off his rocker and decided to assassinate the president.
Perhaps he thought the best way to do so was to mail order an archaic weapon that he had no training on when he could have bought a better weapon in any sporting goods store.
Perhaps its a coincidence that he was killed in a police station by a mobster a few days later.
Perhaps the witnesses in Dealey plaza who heard shots and saw flashes from the Grassy Knoll didn't know what they were talking about.
Perhaps its a coincidence that Lee Bowers, possibly the best witness died suddenly at the ripe old age of 41.
Perhaps the quick untimely deaths of many other possible witnesses was also a coincidence.
Some may say, how could such a secret be kept? Easy. It was 1963. There was no internet, there were no cable news networks and there were no widely distributed counterculture newspapers and magazines. There was only CBS, NBC, ABC, Time-Life, The New York Times, a few others and the Soviet Union pointing nuclear missiles at us. When it came to national security the news outlets of the time printed what the government wanted them to. Anyone who disputed the government /Warren commision narrative was branded a nut case, a communist or worse.
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One point never gets the attention it should. Why did Ruby kill Oswald?
Do you really believe he was upset and concerned about Jackie? Photos show him in the police station prior to the day he killed Oswald.. Why? Did Ruby have mob connections? When in jail how did he die so quickly? He requested that Chief Justice Warren move him out from where he was being held. Warren refused. Just some things to consider
True enough.
But another fact that doesn’t get near the attention that it deserves is LHO’s undisputed attempt on the life of General Walker (JFK’s ideological opposite) weeks earlier.
Much more consistent with the attention-seeking, troubled loner than patsy/conspirator working with the mob/intelligence/pissed off Cubans, etc.
Yes. If this account is true, it pretty much cements Oswald as the lone gunman. How reliable is this accounting?
The magic bullet is the least of the problems with the Kennedy assassination accounts. There are other problems, much bigger.
The magic bullet is the least of the problems with the Kennedy assassination accounts. There are other problems, much bigger.
In fact, there is no magic bullet. The first shot that hit Kennedy and then the Governor is easily explained. Check out that Peter Jennings documentary mentioned here or the other thread.
Lone gunman theory is boring. Twist up a narrative where this guy was in conspiracy-cahoots with that guy, and people will kick it around forever. The well never runs dry.
Watch the first 5 minutes or so of this link of a Peter Jennings/ABC report as they recreate the scene with computer imagery. And it shows where the shots came from and how it went down.
I realize people like a good mystery and to hypothesize about some intricate plot and cover up(s) from a myriad of parties. But this was simply Oswald and nobody else in this shooting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AlKUJHXYxQ
People believe what they want, and often faced with evidence or lack thereof confirmation bias sets in and they believe what they are inclined to believe.
I won't get in to detail on my theories on this or what is true or false only to say we see this theory in action n society today since 2020 (blatantly) but throughout history.
Mark Twain had a quote "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled" - and that cuts both ways and is "virally" prevalent in society.
I don’t know how any logical person could, in good faith, actually study this for any period of time and believe dozens of not hundreds of government employees, mob clowns and Cuban Rambo’s could have executed this plot, get hundreds of more people involved in cover up, and kept it secret for decades.
The CIA couldn’t keep plots to kill Castro secret. If three people in the mob knew anything, two of them rushed to the FBI to rat first. These are not the Uber-talented black ops organizations people like to think they are. There is simply no way tons of people knew about this, yet nobody came forward with even a plausible story for how it happened or who was involved.
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
All I'll say is this, and I'm not professing to know the truth. However, I think you and a lot of people, underestimate how powerful the CIA actually is and how influential they are in ways many people may not consider. it's a rabbit hole you can down and never come out of because there is so much conjecture, lies, propaganda, etc, so it's hard to know what is legit crackpot hair brain conspiracy theory, but there is also much that has been verified - look into things like operation paperclip/project overcast, MKULTRA, operation mockingbird, project mockingbird, and on and on and on.
If your reaction is knee jerk is "where is your tin foil hat" fair enough, your prerogative, I am not trying to convince you of anything and I truly do not care what you believe - yet still I offer my opinion.
But if you look for information and the acknowledged "operations" I mentioned (and it's out there) and once you do that, connecting the dots from the CIA to things like JFK could absolutely be plausible (some say there is direct documentary/testimonial evidence to support it) and it has nothing to do with "3 people knowing a secret"
anyway, I did not intend to take this thread in an unintended place - enjoy Thanksgiving.
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my belief and it has proven out. If more than one knows, there is no secret. I suppose never say never, but...
I would rule out Russia/USSR. No benefit to them, they just plod on like the manifesto says to do.
I could see Cubans with the Bay of Pigs fiasco, but we could have hurt them badly if we found out.
Mafia hit - holds the most water IMV - getting even with Joe for Bobby going after the Mafia after the mob delivered in Illinois/Chicago. That would bring in the Jack Ruby theory of silencing Oswald. But Jack never said anything and he died of cancer(IIRC) in prison.
LBJ??? Family Bible magically appears on Air Force One...?
All I'll say is this, and I'm not professing to know the truth. However, I think you and a lot of people, underestimate how powerful the CIA actually is and how influential they are in ways many people may not consider. it's a rabbit hole you can down and never come out of because there is so much conjecture, lies, propaganda, etc, so it's hard to know what is legit crackpot hair brain conspiracy theory, but there is also much that has been verified - look into things like operation paperclip/project overcast, MKULTRA, operation mockingbird, project mockingbird, and on and on and on.
If your reaction is knee jerk is "where is your tin foil hat" fair enough, your prerogative, I am not trying to convince you of anything and I truly do not care what you believe - yet still I offer my opinion.
But if you look for information and the acknowledged "operations" I mentioned (and it's out there) and once you do that, connecting the dots from the CIA to things like JFK could absolutely be plausible (some say there is direct documentary/testimonial evidence to support it) and it has nothing to do with "3 people knowing a secret"
anyway, I did not intend to take this thread in an unintended place - enjoy Thanksgiving.
I agree that people underestimate the CIA. There is a reason Chuck Schumer said what he said and I will leave there. Their charter says that they are not to operate within the US....ha ha ha.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Never say never. CIA took a beating and was abandoned at Bay of Pigs...not likely, but one never knows.
Happy Thanksgiving
I recall at the time were rumors and whispers that Papa Joe Kennedy promised favors to the Chicago Mob if they 'brought out the dead vote' in the 1960 Presidential election. The margin of victory in Illinois was very close, and Chicago's reputation for sketchy election maneuvers was known.
When the Old Bootlegger Joe Kennedy didn't deliver on his promised favors, Sam Giancana got angry. And now Bobby Kennedy as Attorney General tried to put the Chicago Syndicate out of business. So Giancana took action.
I've always felt that the Mafia was the only outfit with the balls to put a Contract on the President. Lee Harvey Oswald just happened to be 'The Patsy' as he himself seemed to know the frame was in. Jack Ruby's club had ties to Giancana. So did Judith Campbell Exner.
I don't believe that Oswald could get off 3 accurate shots from that second-hand bolt-action Italian rifle. Expert Marksman have tried, with mixed results.
I'll never forget that fateful day. We'll probably never know what really happened.
Reason being, the parade route wasn't made public in Dallas until the day before the shooting. So either Oswald, employed at the TSBD reads about it in the paper and has the idea the day before, or someone in the government knows about it weeks and advance and recruits Oswald long beforehand. Then Oswald manages to get himself hired at the TSBD (in a building right alongside the motorcade route) less than week in advance of he shooting. This would mean that Ruth Payne was also in on the conspiracy, since she's always claimed she was the one who told Oswald about the job opening at the TSBD.
The most damning bit of information was Oswald himself. This is an ex-marine who defected to the Soviet Union. He then changed his mind and returned to the United States along with his Russian bride where all was forgiven. Not only that, he was welcomed by the anti-communist Russian community in Texas.
This is exactly how the CIA selects people. "IF" Oswald was a patsy, he was carefully selected based upon his background.
1) WH announces in September '63 that JFK is making a trip to TX in November.
2) LHO gets hired at TSBD in October '63.
3) Following a back & forth between Bruno-a JFK advance man-& Governor Connelly over where JFK is going to speak in Dallas, the Trade Mart is selected in Connelly's favor over another venue in Dallas that would have had the motorcade go a totally different route in Dallas & not have even gone past the TSBD.
4) JFK's motorcade route is published on 11/20/63.
Reason being, the parade route wasn't made public in Dallas until the day before the shooting. So either Oswald, employed at the TSBD reads about it in the paper and has the idea the day before, or someone in the government knows about it weeks and advance and recruits Oswald long beforehand. Then Oswald manages to get himself hired at the TSBD (in a building right alongside the motorcade route) less than week in advance of he shooting. This would mean that Ruth Payne was also in on the conspiracy, since she's always claimed she was the one who told Oswald about the job opening at the TSBD.
Probably need to come up with a different theory.
Oswald needed money and a job. He did at least one other interview (not the TSBD nor anywhere near it) and didn't get that job. His wife Marina, and the woman she was staying with Ruth Paine, then inquired with the TSBD to see if they had any openings, got Oswald a quick interview and they gave him a job stacking books. Does this sound like how an intricate conspiracy plan is hatched, involving the government recruiting him in advance and placing him in that building?
The parade route was published several days before. And since it was widely discussed that Kennedy was heading to the Trade Mart from Main St this route was not a secret to Oswald, the workers in the TSBD and the other thousand people that planned on getting a glimpse of the President that day.
Most likely a disgruntled Oswald heard about the presidential visit earlier in the week and that it was coming close to his new place of work at the TSBD. And his "lone-nut" thinking kicked into action to bring his rifle that fateful day to take a few shots.
That's all there is.
".....And they relied upon a moron loser like Lee Harvey Oswald to carry it out......"
read that comment. and read it again, and again and again and read it a million times and if the light doesn't come in your brain about exactly the kind of person a government agency would recruit to "radicalize" then your knee jerk reaction to lol haha is exactly why you are inclined to believe things like when the government tells you something is "safe and effective". Just look at Michigan and who the targets were there. My stance has always been I don't know, but the more I learn I feel like the "official account" is more likely than not - not 100% of the story or again it's not who pulled the trigger, but who pulled the strings that is the real story.
I'm not going to comment anymore on this thread because people without the proper knowledge speak in absolutes and act like things are "settled science" and it's all so reminiscent of other recent events that people get emotional about and feel like they know because they read it somewhere.
no one on here knows. there is logic, there is conjecture and there is possibility. but anyone speaking in absolutes on this topic is not speaking from authority.
And also I'm not going to say anymore because this is venturing in to an area of discussion that is forbidden on this site.
It's okay for you not to believe what went down that day, but that doesn't make the known facts any different.
CSPAN did a whole series of interviews with the Sixth Floor Museum staff and with various other contributors....if you care to follow their research.
Wesley Frazier has no dog in this fight. - ( New Window )
*Oswald testified to police, after he was caught, that he never was carrying any type of package at all with curtain rods in it, only his normal lunch bag.
*The brown packaging was found on the 6th floor.
*The rifle was found on the 6th floor.
*No curtain rods were ever found.
*Oswald testified to police, after he was caught, that he never was carrying any type of package at all with curtain rods in it, only his normal lunch bag.
*The brown packaging was found on the 6th floor.
*The rifle was found on the 6th floor.
*No curtain rods were ever found.
The Peter Jennings film goes a long way to cementing the lone gunman theory, and I personally lean that way based on what I have heard, but there are three facts it doesn't quite explain, as I recall.
1. Kennedy's neck wound *looks* like an entrance wound.
2. Kennedy's wound in the back of the head *looks* like an exit wound.
3. Kennedy's head lurches back when he is struck by the head shot.
I don't think any of these is a theory-killer, but they do lead to persistent questions about a shooter in front of the motorcade. Now that we have advanced analytical capabilities, far beyond even the early 00s, it is strange nobody has mapped out the assassination scene to explain, with the use of physics experts, ballistics experts and most importantly experts in forensic pathology, how these 3 things may have happened if Oswald was the lone gunman.
No other bullets were found. No other guns were found.
No other bullets were found. No other guns were found.
but those are facts. We have film of the assassination. We see Kennedy grab the front of his neck. And then the back of his head is blown off. We see his head lurch backwards. A team of highly qualified doctors then observed him in Dallas and concluded based on the wounds (maybe wrongly) that the neck wound was an entrance wound and the gaping hole near the back of his head was an exit wound. Plus we have photographs of the neck wound and back of his head which agree with the assessments made by those doctors.
Again, I'm not saying this is a conspiracy, but it would be nice to have an updated analysis, trace the trajectory again from the book depository, and answer the question can that gun with those bullets create an exit wound in the neck of that shape, given the trajectory? Can that gun with those bullets create the wound in Kennedy's head, given the angle and trajectory? The Jennings doc basically concludes the head wound is an entrance wound. Perhaps we are seeing both an entrance and exit wound in the single massive wound in Kennedy's head? But we have the technology to narrow the question, given that we have imaging of the event. And same for the motion of the head during the kill shot.
And by the way, there are plenty of reports in Warren Comm from experts, ballistics and the autopsy doctors. Go through some of it. It’s tough to read but interesting.
From what was observed and concluded by these experts, two bullets found that struck the President and Connally came from same gun and from the one fired in the TSBD. We also know that same gun was fired 3 times. No one ever heard or concluded to any other additional guns going off so how could there be someone else shooting in Dealy Plaza that day?
There was even another govt commission in late 1970s that came to a possible view that 4 shots were heard on a police microphone. Then it was reviewed by experts afterwards and completely debunked their conclusions which were withdrawn.
There were only 3 shots that day. And Oswald’s rifle fired all 3.
And by the way, there are plenty of reports in Warren Comm from experts, ballistics and the autopsy doctors. Go through some of it. It’s tough to read but interesting.
From what was observed and concluded by these experts, two bullets found that struck the President and Connally came from same gun and from the one fired in the TSBD. We also know that same gun was fired 3 times. No one ever heard or concluded to any other additional guns going off so how could there be someone else shooting in Dealy Plaza that day?
There was even another govt commission in late 1970s that came to a possible view that 4 shots were heard on a police microphone. Then it was reviewed by experts afterwards and completely debunked their conclusions which were withdrawn.
There were only 3 shots that day. And Oswald’s rifle fired all 3.
All reasonable. Nevertheless, we have footage, it's basic physics, it would be nice to put these three questions to bed, and end the conspiracy talk.