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NFT: Knicks vs. Heat in season tournament 7:30

larryflower37 : 11/24/2023 6:33 pm
National televised game (ESPN)
Bam Adebayo (hip) has been upgraded to probable for tonight’s game against the Knicks
Its one of those games everyone gets up for.
Knicks lose and they are eliminated from the in season tournament.

#LFGK.
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Just got home and not one bit tired  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 12:51 am : link
watching the encore on MSG now, great win..
IQ  
ElitoCanton : 11/25/2023 2:31 am : link
needs to play at least 30 minutes every single night. Thibs waiting way too long to put him back in the game. And playing his less than 10 minutes in the first half was ridiculous.
stating the  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 9:18 am : link
obvious but in tight games the ball needs to be in Brunson's hands and if not him, then IQ. Randle was basically not at all involved in the comeback or anything on offense.
Quick or DDV need to start at the 2  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 9:21 am : link
Id prefer to keep Quick coming off the bench, but playing a little bit more, Grimes literally just runs to the corner offensively and atands there and i dont want to here its Thibs..

Hart, DDV, Quick, Rj theyball cut to the basket, move around the perimiter, set picks, and are constantly moving even if the ball sticks..

Grimes needs to come off the bench and maybe he will be more agressive playing with those guys because right now he just isnt contributing what is needed..
The IQ conundrum  
AROCK1000 : 11/25/2023 9:24 am : link
If he keeps producing off the bench and shows up in the playoffs, do we sign him to big bucks in the offseason??
Quickley should be signed already so yes  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 9:25 am : link
.
not signing  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 9:46 am : link
IQ to an extension is already a mistake but they'll have time to rectify it this summer. Let's hope they don't fuck it up again.
RE: not signing  
BigBlueShock : 11/25/2023 9:54 am : link
In comment 16300561 Enzo said:
Quote:
IQ to an extension is already a mistake but they'll have time to rectify it this summer. Let's hope they don't fuck it up again.

If Quickley leaves and they ultimately got absolutely nothing in return it will be an epic failure. We all praise the patience of Leon Rose but there’s a fine line between patience and simply being afraid to pull the trigger on deals. When they start losing valuable assets for nothing because they had no plan it is officially time to start worrying about this front office.
I dont think IQ was ever resigning  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 9:58 am : link
unkess Knicks offered 30 million
RE: I dont think IQ was ever resigning  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 10:01 am : link
In comment 16300576 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
unkess Knicks offered 30 million

makes sense. He's better than RJ.

I've said this before - teams rarely regret sub max rookie extensions. It's the only time teams have all the leverage in a negotiation. And the second contract almost always lines up with a player's prime or just before his prime.
RE: Just got home and not one bit tired  
Stu11 : 11/25/2023 10:16 am : link
In comment 16300482 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
watching the encore on MSG now, great win..

Glad you were in the building for that one. Nobody is a bigger diehard than you
RE: RE: Just got home and not one bit tired  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 10:23 am : link
In comment 16300593 Stu11 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300482 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


watching the encore on MSG now, great win..


Glad you were in the building for that one. Nobody is a bigger diehard than you


Nah everyone is diehards on this thread, i am just a nutjob when it comes to the Kncicks lol
RE: I dont think IQ was ever resigning  
BigBlueShock : 11/25/2023 10:24 am : link
In comment 16300576 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
unkess Knicks offered 30 million

Then they should have dealt him. They were in discussions on an extension so they had to know what his price was going to be. So they are either willing to go to his number or they royally screwed up. We’ll find out which one down the road…
I think the one big change should be DD for Grimes as a starter  
Stu11 : 11/25/2023 10:47 am : link
Thibs has handled IQ just fine. When he's on like last night and last Friday in Washington he rides him, but there are also nights where IQ is off. As much as Thibs gets killed here he out coached Spoelstra one of the best in the game in the 4th qtr. He made the adjustment to run the offense through IQ and Brunson.
RE: RE: I dont think IQ was ever resigning  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 10:50 am : link
In comment 16300600 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 16300576 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


unkess Knicks offered 30 million


Then they should have dealt him. They were in discussions on an extension so they had to know what his price was going to be. So they are either willing to go to his number or they royally screwed up. We’ll find out which one down the road…


why would they deal him? They have restricted free agency, let him go set his market and the Knicks can match, if he was going to be an unrestricted free agent i would agree
IQ  
AROCK1000 : 11/25/2023 10:54 am : link
Did kinda wet the bed in the playoffs...
and with IQ, this isnt Obi  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 10:58 am : link
they are not trading him just because, if he is getting traded its in a supeestar type of deal..
Knicks will match any offer  
larryflower37 : 11/25/2023 11:05 am : link
They back themselves in this corner and fans would revolt if they let him walk for nothing.
They need to find minutes for him to keep him happy there is no reason that the top 4 player on your team should be averaging 25 minutes.
Thibs needs to pull Grimes quicker maybe at the same time you pull RJ.
Randle had the most minutes last night let that settle in.
Get RJ back quicker and stop leaving Randle in for so long with the 2nd unit.
Thibs needs to figure it out quickly and someone needs to tell Randle the offense is not going through you anymore.
RE: I think the one big change should be DD for Grimes as a starter  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 11:05 am : link
In comment 16300612 Stu11 said:
Quote:
Thibs has handled IQ just fine. When he's on like last night and last Friday in Washington he rides him, but there are also nights where IQ is off. As much as Thibs gets killed here he out coached Spoelstra one of the best in the game in the 4th qtr. He made the adjustment to run the offense through IQ and Brunson.


The only reason it took a heroic effort was because Thibs stayed with the starters for basically the whole 3rd and let the 1 point lead turn into a 21 point deficit. If this was the playoffs, I don't think there is any doubt we lose this game. Let's not pat Thibs on the back for this one.
All i will say is  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 11:09 am : link
if/when they make that big star trade, it is going to fricken hurt..
Robbie  
AROCK1000 : 11/25/2023 11:17 am : link
I didnt really get a chance to watch last night...how did Thibs outcoach Spo??
I’m not against changing the starting lineup but  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 11:44 am : link
Brunson-Grimes-RJ-Randle-Mitch has been one of the most successful five-man units in the entire league since they came together, and we know the bench is among the best in baseball, if not THE best. I think a major trade is the only thing that shakes it up.
RE: Robbie  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 11:50 am : link
In comment 16300637 AROCK1000 said:
Quote:
I didnt really get a chance to watch last night...how did Thibs outcoach Spo??


He didn't. Randle was straight shit in the first half. I think he had 6 turnovers in the first alone. At one point, the Knicks were down by 21 in the 3rd when they went into half with a 1 point lead. How doesn't that even happen in half a quarter? With 10:41 left in the third, the Heat had 24 points off turnovers. The Knicks had 4. Late in the game the Knicks, as usual, turned the ball over on an inbounds pass again with guys standing around. They actually used their last timeout with like 15 seconds left to inbound the ball and finally there was no drama with it but to use your last timeout and not have that ability to call a timeout if you get stuck was questionable. It worked. It is just amazing we have such a difficult time for years now doing that. The one coaching move that Thibs did was not bring Randle back into the game until there was 3:45 left in the game. He had some rebounds that helped but also almost turned the ball over again when he was trying to eat the clock up. Love stripped it from him and it was questionable on who last touched it. We had 4.9 seconds left to inbound the ball and get a shot off. We wound up turning it over there late jn the game because of our inability to inbound the ball. Yes, we won and, yes, it was an awesome win but Thibs is also a big reason why we were in such a deficit to begin with. Randle had his head up his ass again. We were extremely lucky to go into the half with a lead. We went on a nice run to end the half.
RE: I’m not against changing the starting lineup but  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 11:52 am : link
In comment 16300651 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
Brunson-Grimes-RJ-Randle-Mitch has been one of the most successful five-man units in the entire league since they came together, and we know the bench is among the best in baseball, if not THE best. I think a major trade is the only thing that shakes it up.


Not sure I agree with this at all. Brunson has been awesome but RJ was BRUTAL last year with the starters almost all year. The playoffs is where he turned it up. Grimes was hurt a lot and when he did start he doesn't add anything to the starting unit. I agree with those that say DD should start. He's just a better fit. And for some reason Grimes' D hasn't been as good as what we are used to.
Statistically they have been very successful as a five-man group  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 11:58 am : link
and the win-loss record backs it up. I just think Thibs will give it a larger sample size before considering changes, that’s all. The team is 9-6 against a brutal early schedule.
Grimes  
AROCK1000 : 11/25/2023 12:02 pm : link
deserves a bit of slack....he was playing very well before he got hurt.
His D was tenacious he was hitting his shots...
RE: Statistically they have been very successful as a five-man group  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:03 pm : link
In comment 16300662 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
and the win-loss record backs it up. I just think Thibs will give it a larger sample size before considering changes, that’s all. The team is 9-6 against a brutal early schedule.


Oh, I don't doubt he sticks with it. That's who he is. It's rare that he makes changes. All I am saying is I disagree that the starters have been on of the best starting 5 in the league. That wasn't the case last year. RJ was crap. Grimes was hurt and added little. People were getting in Mitch. I don't agree with the assessment that they were one of the best starting 5. You can't look at their record and say that about the starters. It was a total team effort that led to the record, not just the starters. If what you said was true that we have one of the best starting groups AND best bench, then why were we not a better seed?
Knicks twitter  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 12:03 pm : link
has their usual assortment of clips showing poor effort from Randle. For a while I firmly believed we should keep him unless there's a big player coming back - but now I'm thinking if we can be moved for a useful piece or two they should consider it.
RE: Knicks twitter  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:05 pm : link
In comment 16300667 Enzo said:
Quote:
has their usual assortment of clips showing poor effort from Randle. For a while I firmly believed we should keep him unless there's a big player coming back - but now I'm thinking if we can be moved for a useful piece or two they should consider it.


Welcome to the dark side.
it's hard to argue  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 12:11 pm : link
with his production. You don't get voted all-league twice by accident. And he can create his own shot and draw fouls which has value. But we can't ever be a serious team with one of our main guys being so careless with the ball and not giving 100%.

One of my favorite things about IQ is that even when his shot isn't falling, he's still a plus defender. The whole team is flying around trying to make plays...and then you have Julius doing his slow job and down the court. It's maddening.
RE: RE: Statistically they have been very successful as a five-man group  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 12:14 pm : link
In comment 16300666 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
If what you said was true that we have one of the best starting groups AND best bench, then why were we not a better seed?

They started 10-13 last year because Grimes was hurt in camp and Fournier started for a bit. That killed them. The winning percentage improved dramatically after Grimes got healthy, and then spiked again after the Hart trade. The record after the 10-13 start was a 50+ win pace and would’ve earned them a higher seed over 82 games - oh well. The analytics point to the starting lineup being among the best in the league, not just my uninformed opinion.
RE: it's hard to argue  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:15 pm : link
In comment 16300671 Enzo said:
Quote:
with his production. You don't get voted all-league twice by accident. And he can create his own shot and draw fouls which has value. But we can't ever be a serious team with one of our main guys being so careless with the ball and not giving 100%.

One of my favorite things about IQ is that even when his shot isn't falling, he's still a plus defender. The whole team is flying around trying to make plays...and then you have Julius doing his slow job and down the court. It's maddening.


And it is contagious. Hart was a huge spark last year. He was all over the court. He was just a great player to root for because of his hustle. Then watch him in the playoff series last year. He was none of that. Instead, he followed Randle's lead and was arguing with the refs instead of hustling back on D. Maddening is the correct word overall. Yes, Randle has talent. Nobody denies that. But we know who he is when it is crunch time. He's a mental midget that cannot be trusted. It is that simple.
The amount of times Julius grabs a rebound  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 12:18 pm : link
and walks the ball up the court rather than making an outlet pass to start a break makes me want to strangle him. And that’s one of a hundred things that irritate me about his game.
RE: RE: RE: Statistically they have been very successful as a five-man group  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:20 pm : link
In comment 16300672 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300666 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


If what you said was true that we have one of the best starting groups AND best bench, then why were we not a better seed?


They started 10-13 last year because Grimes was hurt in camp and Fournier started for a bit. That killed them. The winning percentage improved dramatically after Grimes got healthy, and then spiked again after the Hart trade. The record after the 10-13 start was a 50+ win pace and would’ve earned them a higher seed over 82 games - oh well. The analytics point to the starting lineup being among the best in the league, not just my uninformed opinion.


I don't want to keep going over this. You specifically said Brunson, Grimes, RJ, Randle, and Mitch were one of the best starting 5 in the NBA. Not sure why you are bringing up Hart. RJ and Grimes were hurt for chunks. You keep bringing up overall record. Overall record doesn't prove your point. Do you agree that Barrett was dogshit last year for most of the year? Brunson was awesome. Grimes and Barrett weren't.
RE: The amount of times Julius grabs a rebound  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:23 pm : link
In comment 16300675 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
and walks the ball up the court rather than making an outlet pass to start a break makes me want to strangle him. And that’s one of a hundred things that irritate me about his game.


I was totally waiting for them to lose last night because as soon as they got the lead they slowed it down. I was cringing. You just erased a 21 point lead or more realistically like a 17 point lead with that 2nd unit by playing up tempo. I get that you want to use the clock but go with what is working. Luckily Brunson was just awesome that he was able to take advantage of his mismatches and seal the win. I still think they should have been more aggressive on offense late in the game. I am not saying to force a shot up with 18 seconds on the shot clock but they should still push the ball and see if you can get mismatches because guys are out of position on D.
Julius has all the talent in the world  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 12:37 pm : link
the problem is he wants to slow it down and grind the offense to a hault and when he does make the correct read it works but when he stsrts flailing and rushing it looks terrible...

It also seems a lot of the players in the roation play better when they are playing faster and moving the ball..

Its kind of a crazy thing that arguably the most talented player may be the player that is holding them back
RE: Julius has all the talent in the world  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 12:50 pm : link
In comment 16300686 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
the problem is he wants to slow it down and grind the offense to a hault and when he does make the correct read it works but when he stsrts flailing and rushing it looks terrible...

It also seems a lot of the players in the roation play better when they are playing faster and moving the ball..

Its kind of a crazy thing that arguably the most talented player may be the player that is holding them back


This. Basketball is a team sport. It's a rhythm. I know you always say every team runs iso and, yes, they do. But that isn't the point. The point is Randle will rack up his stats and the rest of the players go cold. Just something as simple as a player touching the ball on offense and swinging it to someone else keeps them involved. I used to love watching Rip Hamilton run circles around players an entire game. He never got tired. I hate when we stand still. You allow the opponent to rest. Hell, I remember last year when Randle was hurt and Obi started and Miami said they weren't ready for the pace they played at. Perpetual motion ahoudl be the goal, especially with the bench that we have. We can keep it up.

I kill Thibs for a lot but one thing I wish people would take notice of is how much we play our starters. I'm not just talking about a per game basis as people will bring up other players that play more. Thibs NEVER rests players. Games will be over in the third. We'll be up by 30 and he still has the starters playing until there are like 2 min left in the game. But, what I am getting at is that we have been so healthy overall. I hate the mentality today in all sports where we rest and rest and rest to avoid injury and all that does is lead to injuries. The Knicks have been nonstop forever and they are ultimately always healthy. You cannot prevent things like RJ's injury last year or Randle's twisted ankle but when it comes to tendons and muscles I think it makes too much sense to have it be repetitive. When you go from zero to a hundred, I think that is a recipe for disaster and injury. We even hear how intense the Knicks practices are too.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Statistically they have been very successful as a five-man group  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 1:10 pm : link
In comment 16300677 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
I don't want to keep going over this. You specifically said Brunson, Grimes, RJ, Randle, and Mitch were one of the best starting 5 in the NBA. Not sure why you are bringing up Hart. RJ and Grimes were hurt for chunks. You keep bringing up overall record. Overall record doesn't prove your point. Do you agree that Barrett was dogshit last year for most of the year? Brunson was awesome. Grimes and Barrett weren't.

You asked why they didn’t have a higher seed if they had a great starting lineup and bench (as I mentioned) - I was just pointing out that Fournier screwed up the early part of the season and the bench wasn’t great until Hart showed up. That’s why I brought him up. I don’t feel like digging up the analytics on lineup data, but the current starting five graded out highly in the minutes they played together last season - among the best in the NBA. That’s all. I don’t think playing musical chairs with Hart, DDV and Grimes is gonna raise the ceiling of the team.
We'll just agree to disagree.  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 1:18 pm : link
Grimes is just a body with that unit. He hit a three at the end of the half and it was like some magical feat for him to do so. I like Grimes but I just don't see the fit with the first unit. He has more to offer. I think DD deserves the chance to start and is a better fit. That is all. And, yes, I agree that Thibs will not make the move anytime soon unless there is an injury.
My friend just sent me this.  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 1:25 pm : link
Eye opening for Barrett and Grimes.
Link - ( New Window )
My biggest issue with Thibs  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 1:26 pm : link
is his auto subs, he doesnt sub based on game flow or who is playing well or who isnt, he has a set rotation and he rarely deviates from it..

and once the starters come back in the 2nd, unless there is foul trouble, he is done subbing..he has guys play 15 minutes straight off the bench rather than take them out after 10 and then bring them back..

The only player he does it with, is Rj
RE: My biggest issue with Thibs  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 1:31 pm : link
In comment 16300770 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
is his auto subs, he doesnt sub based on game flow or who is playing well or who isnt, he has a set rotation and he rarely deviates from it..

and once the starters come back in the 2nd, unless there is foul trouble, he is done subbing..he has guys play 15 minutes straight off the bench rather than take them out after 10 and then bring them back..

The only player he does it with, is Rj


Agreed and it probably hsd to do with Barrett playing multiple positions. The ESPN crew was so annoying last night. They were creaming tgeir pants last night saying Thibs is going with a 4 guard lineup when Barrett was at the 4. Barrett is not a guard anymore. I then found out that MSG also had the gsme on and switched.
Watching Randle is like watching Ewing era Knicks  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/25/2023 1:32 pm : link
Throw the ball to Ewing in the post back to Starks back to Ewing in the post while everyone else is standing around doing nothing. Sure Ewing got his stats and the team won games but they couldn't get over the hump because it wasn't a team offense.

Grimes is a very good defender but should find himself coming off the bench. They need to do a better job working mitch into the offense and Randle has to move the ball and know he isn't the team
RE: My biggest issue with Thibs  
Enzo : 11/25/2023 1:41 pm : link
In comment 16300770 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
is his auto subs, he doesnt sub based on game flow or who is playing well or who isnt, he has a set rotation and he rarely deviates from it..

and once the starters come back in the 2nd, unless there is foul trouble, he is done subbing..he has guys play 15 minutes straight off the bench rather than take them out after 10 and then bring them back..

The only player he does it with, is Rj

only Brunson should really be getting built in rest periods. Everyone else should be flexible based on matchups and how the game is going.
RE: Watching Randle is like watching Ewing era Knicks  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 1:48 pm : link
In comment 16300778 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
Throw the ball to Ewing in the post back to Starks back to Ewing in the post while everyone else is standing around doing nothing. Sure Ewing got his stats and the team won games but they couldn't get over the hump because it wasn't a team offense.

Grimes is a very good defender but should find himself coming off the bench. They need to do a better job working mitch into the offense and Randle has to move the ball and know he isn't the team


and he can do it because he does it in 4th quarters, he defers to Brunson, but for some reason for the first 3 quarterz they are hunting mismatches for him
Some Rumors from Vincent Goodwill  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 5:01 pm : link
Knicks are 1 of 3 teams with serious interest in Bojan Bogdonavic from Detroit..

my guess Evan Fournier and Grimes plus a couple of picks would be the offer..

The question is does adding Bojan elevate this team? it shouldnt effect anything in regards to a superstar trade, it gives the Knicks a little more size at the guard position..
Well we are due for our bi-annual trade with Detroit.  
bceagle05 : 11/25/2023 5:56 pm : link
Bojan’s a bit long in the tooth (34) but he can shoot it.
Bogdonavic is a good pick up  
larryflower37 : 11/25/2023 6:36 pm : link
But do you move RJ back to the 2 or is Bogdonavic the first off the bench for Randle/RJ?
If you are going for him you might as well see if OG is available for Grimes +
The Knicks 4 guards set last night work against Miami but we are sized out vs. Celtics etc.
it was James Edwards not Vincent Goodwill  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 6:40 pm : link
..
RE: Bogdonavic is a good pick up  
nygiants16 : 11/25/2023 6:41 pm : link
In comment 16301113 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
But do you move RJ back to the 2 or is Bogdonavic the first off the bench for Randle/RJ?
If you are going for him you might as well see if OG is available for Grimes +
The Knicks 4 guards set last night work against Miami but we are sized out vs. Celtics etc.


You can start Bojan and Rj together..

Raptors and Knicks will never make a trade again
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