Let me start by saying I have worry about Jones's play, independent of his health.
But from what I've read it seems like Jones had a very routine ACL tear and was fully recovered from his neck strain.
I get Jones has been banged up, but is he anymore banged up than say Burrow?
I guess I'm surprised to read so much fan sentiment that the Giants will inevitably draft his replacement after this latest injury.
Am I missing something?
This season has been a cluster fuck and we all liked DJ but not loved him
His contract is structured in a way that 2024 is likely the end of the road..
OL or even Edge makes sense here..
I have made my feelings clear about Marvin Harrison Jr..but that's not very likely
Chasing a QB who really hasn't shown they are worth Chasing makes less than zero chance....2 weeks ago everyone was gaga for JJ...now he shows to be a game manager type at the COLLEGE level...
DJ has 1 more season here...and if we are all lucky 2
Jones will earn 36M in new cash next year, and will have a cap charge of 47M, which they are unlikely to lower.
The Giants are very unlikely to add significant salary for the third QB on the roster, especially if they draft a QB on round one or two.
DeVito has a very good chance of being on the roster, and being the opening day starter of Jones is not available.
If the Giants find themselves outside of tbe top 10, I don't think the calculus is so easy to just pay Jones 36M next year and spend additional resources to move up.
I think there's a very good chance round two is where the Giants pick a QB.
I still think Schoen will try everything to move up. But, that will be hard to do,
I'm warming up to trading a day 3 pick for Fields if NYG falls outside of the top QB's.
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Multiple neck injuries.
This. Simple.
Not to a troll
Both Jones and the Giants confirmed he was cleared for contact in January 2022.
On April 4, 2022, Jones was asked about being ready for September and said, "I'll be cleared and ready to go", using the future tense.
On June 7, 2022, Daboll said that Jones would be cleared to play if the Giants had a game that week, and that was a news headline.
Jones was then asked by reporters for the date on which he was cleared for contact and wouldn't give it, saying it was irrelevant. He said it happened sometime after the Giants were no longer playing games.
I didn't find any statements from Jones or the Giants saying he had been cleared for contact in January 2022.
bbv april - ( New Window )
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None of those injuries are typically long term issues. The ACL will certainly impact his play next year, both from a timing and ability perspective, but it's not a career altering injury.
If say Lamar Jackson tore his ACL this weekend, would Baltimore fold it up and inevitably replace him?
You’re one of my favorite posters and we have been in lock step in regards to needing to move on from Jones but I have to say, your recent posts that repeated on this topic are bizarre. We all know you want to move on from Jones so we also know that these posts about Jones’ injuries not being long term have absolutely nothing to do with it being you promoting Jones as the future QB. So what’s the purpose of these posts and threads?
I’m guessing (with a very high probability of being right) that you’ve recently decided that it would be clever to root out the Jones fans that say they believe in Jones but suddenly have decided it may be time to move on because of the injuries. It’s their escape hatch without having to admit his subpar play.
Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…
+1
bbv june - ( New Window )
Mic drop.
There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.
This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.
Jones played in six games. He didn't throw a TD in five of them.
He has had sustained season ending injuries in 2 of last 3 years
In addition, he has 2 neck injuries, 2 concussions and a clavicle injury over this time PLUS a neck surgery in the offseason which he said was unrelated to the injury he had but left him with an apparent scar.
“Asked about offseason pictures that appeared to show a surgical scar on his upper chest, Jones insisted the procedure was unrelated to his injury. "I had a non-football-related procedure done on my neck," Jones said, per ESPN.”
He has also had 3 different high ankle sprains and a hamstring pull and now the ACL injury
Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
I don't disagree. But, you could also look at it from the angle that they'd already be halfway through a 2 year deal.
But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.
If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.
So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.
There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:
1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.
Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...
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Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.
OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.
Says who? You?
My general feeling remains the same. These aren't career ending injuries. And if a better player, like Burrow, had the same set of injuries, the Bengals wouldn't be considering replacing him.
Now, if the argument is Jones isn't very good, I get that.
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It almost always involves your spine. It's very ballsy that Peyton played for a few years after having an ACDF (which I have also had).
I can't believe you ask what's the worry with Jones' health when he's been injured almost every year, btw. The biggest predictor of injuries in sports is previous injuries.
His neck wasn't serious enough to IR him this year, and an ACL certainly isn't enough to move on from him.
Same question I posed above, do you think the Ravens or Bengals would use a first round pick if their quarterbacks had the same injuries Jones has?
Well I think you already know the answer. The deal was already structured in a "prove it" way as it is. Then the season starts and the OL was awful, with crucial injuries right away (Thomas) and Jones certainly didn't play well at all regardless. Add to that the injuries to his neck and ACL with an out for them after 2024, I really think it's a no brainer that we are drafting a QB this year. He certainly hasn't been good enough or consistent enough for this staff to put all of their eggs into that basket for next year. IMO of course. I think we draft a QB and they let them duke it out in preseason. No harm in riding DJ if he comes back as the starter with a young QB on the bench, while they continue to build up the team depth (and God, hopefully the OL some more). I guess it depends on where we pick but I'd be shocked if DJ is on this team after 2024, personally.
They should wrap that guy in bubble wrap and make him inactive every game. No way should they risk him getting hurt and his injury guarantee kick in.
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The team and quarterback have been steadfast about their belief that the neck injury Jones suffered late last year would not be a long-term problem. A source said that Jones was actually close to returning before the end of the season back in early January.
My general feeling remains the same. These aren't career ending injuries. And if a better player, like Burrow, had the same set of injuries, the Bengals wouldn't be considering replacing him.
Now, if the argument is Jones isn't very good, I get that. Link - ( New Window )
I thought the question was in regards to his health. Like I said, a torn ACL is something that won't derail him and his athleticism. He was a straight line speed player. Not joking everybody out. He trucked Grady Jarrett. The kid is strong.
If you aren't a medical doctor, much less even examined him yourself, how are you so convinced his neck injuries aren't career threatening?
His ACL isn't an issue exactly. The issue is time.
When last seen, Jones played poorly. That it was under unusually extreme adverse circumstances makes it explainable, but the results were still abysmal.
The ACL means the Giants are drafting - at whatever position - before Jones is recovered. His short-term health impairs the Giants in making 2024 roster and draft decisions. Long-term health concerns, if any, factor into those decisions -- but we have no idea.
When Jones and the Giants say his neck injuries won't have a long term impact, I'm assuming that comes from a medical doctor.
Given the way Schoen structured the Jones contract which you gave credit to Schoen for, christian - I'd imagine you would agree. Look at when the 3rd year guarantees kick in - this was a 2nd tier QB contract at best, maybe 3rd tier. So, any comparison to Burrow getting hurt makes no sense. Schoen did not value Jones anywhere near the same way as the Bengals value Burrow.
But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.
If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.
So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.
There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:
1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.
Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...
It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.
A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.
Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.
I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.
You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.
Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
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You just paid Jones. He played less than 6 games this season before going out with an ACL. If you pivot from Jones now you're admitting you were a moron to pay him.
Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
This. The need to save face by Jones retiring. However, I still think they draft a QB somewhere in the first three rounds.
It makes more sense to admit defeat than find a way for him to retire because of the $23M injury clause which will cripple our cap for a SECOND season (2024 AND 2025).
Anyway, it's extremely unlikely it would work. Jones was already cleared for contact for the neck injury so it is not realistic that an independent medical examination would force his retirement for that. And we all know ACL injuries can be repaired, and almost all NFL athletes continue their careers eventually.
I'm simply making (the slightly nuanced) point these aren't the types of injuries fans, coaches, GMs etc. would normally want to dump their guy over.
As you pointed out, the Giants didn't make a big commitment to Jones, so maybe the injuries prove to be a final straw so to speak.
What the Giants do on the first round is obviously a vote of no/confidence in Jones. My guess is after some rehab and time, the decision won't be so easy and obvious for the Giants. Especially if they fall outside of the top 10 in the draft.
Schoen and Mara would have to believe after a handful of games behind a disaster of a line, and one year into a contract, that they were unequivocally wrong about Jones. And despite owing Jones 36M, they should spend potentially many valuable draft picks to replace him.
Ok, but do that mean just get complacent at QB?
Always be upgrading.
Schoen and Mara would have to believe after a handful of games behind a disaster of a line, and one year into a contract, that they were unequivocally wrong about Jones. And despite owing Jones 36M, they should spend potentially many valuable draft picks to replace him.
The question becomes does Schoen view Jones' deal as a 2 year commitment? If he does, he will be an expensive backup who I can't imagine will take a snap given the injury guarantee in 2025. Schoen will move off him after next season and save roughly $19M on the cap.
If they view Jones as a 3 year commitment, I think he'll have a good chance to be the starter and a significant investment (2nd round QB) will be developed behind him with the hopes to eventually start. But, Jones has the opportunity to reestablish himself.
Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.
Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.
If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.
Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.
Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.
If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.
Absolutely. I think given the unique circumstances, the Giants will need to carry 3 QB's. Team Jones will hate this though. Not sure how that plays out.
Did you watch the Miami game, where Taylor entered and immediately the sack rate declined? Or the fact that an undrafted rookie QB played last week and put up a QB rating higher than any Jones has ever put up in the NFL?
No one’s arguing that the OL doesn’t need to be improved. But no realistic OL can function ahead of Jones. He’s a major part of the OL problem.
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When you watch this OL does it matter who the QB is? For me any QB behind this OL is in trouble.
Did you watch the Miami game, where Taylor entered and immediately the sack rate declined? Or the fact that an undrafted rookie QB played last week and put up a QB rating higher than any Jones has ever put up in the NFL?
No one’s arguing that the OL doesn’t need to be improved. But no realistic OL can function ahead of Jones. He’s a major part of the OL problem.
You would think after 5 years of watching how impossible it is to fix the OL, it doesn’t need to be said that the QB plays an essential role in stabilizing the line. But it needs to be said.
Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.
Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.
If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.
Absolutely. I think given the unique circumstances, the Giants will need to carry 3 QB's. Team Jones will hate this though. Not sure how that plays out.
Now imagine they've franchised Barkley. That would be 2017 drama all over again.
I think your above scenario is the most likely: accept Jones will be a Giant in 2024/2025, and draft a QB on round two to develop behind him.
And anyone with designs of taking a break from the Giants if they don't make a big investment in QB, should put the down payment on their green fees this week.
That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.
Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.
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Jones sucks. He always has.
But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.
If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.
So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.
There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:
1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.
Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...
It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.
A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.
Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.
I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.
You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.
Not interested in preserving the feelings of those who were tanking victory laps on something that was always complete bullshit.
That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.
Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.
If you trust Schoen to make the same decision he did with Jones last year then he is totally incompetent.
That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.
Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.
There is logic to this, but Schoen's first decision was to move on from Jones. He reversed himself after putting not to pick up the fifth year option.
That ended up being very foolish. Many fans would have whined and cried, but the correct move was to enter the 2023 season with Taylor as the bridge QB. If reversing himself makes the GM incompetent, signing Jones reflected incompetence.
But let's be real -- his operating thesis so far has been build around the players he inherited from Gettleman.
Of course it's early, and certainly this draft class has both flashed and has plenty of time to develop.
But I'd argue the only clear cut big additions he's made are Thibs, McFadden, and Okereke. Glowinksi has been a disaster, Waller looks like a mistake, Campbell is virtual nothing. Neal has been very bad etc.
I bring that up because I don't make any assumptions that he's destined to make a good decision with anything.
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More like 80%. Even if we draft a QB, there's probably a very good chance Jones is still the QB week 1 with the draftee holding a clip board.
There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.
This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.
Jones played in six games. He didn't throw a TD in five of them.
Disingenuous. He missed almost the entire "6th game" and left early in another. And I guess we should ignore the fact that Thomas and JMS were out for almost all of that (our only two passable lineman) and forget that Jones was on pace to break the all time NFL record for sacks.
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In comment 16300936 joe48 said:
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In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:
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In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:
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Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.
FFS.
Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.
Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.
It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).
Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury
Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft
The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.
QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.
How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.
It's funny how people have been complaining about the line for 5 years and despite different coaches and linemen it never gets better. Might be time to consider the QBs role in stabilizing the line.
When Thomas went down, Jones played behind a dysfunctional line, you really want to hold Jones responsible for their performance, ok, I don’t think it s a valid point, but ok
Did you give him credit for the line functioning well enough to get into and win a playoff game last season, or are you one of the, “weak opponent guys”?
Minnesota had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last season. It's a fact.
I said all along that DJ showed some good things in those games, but he had another step forward to make, and that was to play well against good defenses. He still hasn't made that step. Of course there have been other factors that have been less than ideal. But it doesn't absolve him completely when he has shit the bed.
At some point, you run out of chances. Will he get another chance next year? Maybe. But the time has come for this org to plan for a post-DJ world in 2025.
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Jones sucks. He always has.
But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.
If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.
So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.
There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:
1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.
Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...
It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.
A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.
Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.
I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.
You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.