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What's the Long Term Worry With Jones's Health?

christian : 11/25/2023 12:45 pm
Let me start by saying I have worry about Jones's play, independent of his health.

But from what I've read it seems like Jones had a very routine ACL tear and was fully recovered from his neck strain.

I get Jones has been banged up, but is he anymore banged up than say Burrow?

I guess I'm surprised to read so much fan sentiment that the Giants will inevitably draft his replacement after this latest injury.

Am I missing something?
hes a running QB  
bigbluewillrise : 11/25/2023 12:46 pm : link
if he wasnt a running QB the ACL would be less of a concern.

its not just one neck injury, its teh 2nd.

multiple concussions.

collarbone injury in duke.

i dont think he was recovered from teh neck the raider game the arm strength was bad.
This is his injury history over teh past 4 years  
bigbluewillrise : 11/25/2023 12:47 pm : link
wow
https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/daniel-jones/10225
Neck  
Toth029 : 11/25/2023 12:50 pm : link
Is the biggest issue. It is a continuous problem it feels like from the past couple of years. Additionally, he's taking more shots with coaching putting players in position they shouldn't be (Ezeudu at Left tackle) and he's taken a psychological and physical punishment. It's bound to deter someone and shake their confidence.

ACL is less of a worry because while he's mobile, he is a straight line speed guy rather than agile like Kyler Murray.
 
christian : 11/25/2023 12:51 pm : link
None of those injuries are typically long term issues. The ACL will certainly impact his play next year, both from a timing and ability perspective, but it's not a career altering injury.

If say Lamar Jackson tore his ACL this weekend, would Baltimore fold it up and inevitably replace him?
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 12:52 pm : link
Both the Giants and Jones confirmed on a number of occasions the 2021 and 2023 neck injuries were different in nature and not related.
RE: This is his injury history over teh past 4 years  
christian : 11/25/2023 12:59 pm : link
In comment 16300704 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
wow
https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/daniel-jones/10225


You can say the same thing about Burrow, though, no? And he's clearly not waking the plank.
Link - ( New Window )
re: Lamar Jackson  
Toth029 : 11/25/2023 1:00 pm : link
No, because his contract is set up differently. His play also has been better this year than the past few. If he blew his knee in Week 1 while on a tag, for instance, and BAL finished in the top 3 draft where they were available to get a top prospect? I would be confident in them entertaining that option. They'd be crazy not to.

Two separate neck injuries took him out for a considerable amount of time and they're the type of injuries that end careers.
Where was it written that Jones' injury was merely a neck strain?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/25/2023 1:00 pm : link
.
Citing the injuries is a graceful way for folks who were wrong  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 1:01 pm : link
about Jones' ability to play the position at a high level, to duck out of their commitment to him. Even they must have been shocked by what they saw this season prior to the injuries.
That we don't fix the OL  
Chip : 11/25/2023 1:04 pm : link
and he continues getting beat up. Tyrod couldn't last 3 games behind the OL. There is not a QB in college or the NFL who could play behind this group. Washngton had 9 sacks against us and could not get close to Prescott. That should tell the Giants something I hope. Very rarely the Giant QB and step up into a clean pocket.
We literally just saw it happen  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/25/2023 1:05 pm : link
"There is not a QB in college or the NFL who could play behind this group."
RE: …  
BigBlueShock : 11/25/2023 1:09 pm : link
In comment 16300709 christian said:
Quote:
None of those injuries are typically long term issues. The ACL will certainly impact his play next year, both from a timing and ability perspective, but it's not a career altering injury.

If say Lamar Jackson tore his ACL this weekend, would Baltimore fold it up and inevitably replace him?

You’re one of my favorite posters and we have been in lock step in regards to needing to move on from Jones but I have to say, your recent posts that repeated on this topic are bizarre. We all know you want to move on from Jones so we also know that these posts about Jones’ injuries not being long term have absolutely nothing to do with it being you promoting Jones as the future QB. So what’s the purpose of these posts and threads?

I’m guessing (with a very high probability of being right) that you’ve recently decided that it would be clever to root out the Jones fans that say they believe in Jones but suddenly have decided it may be time to move on because of the injuries. It’s their escape hatch without having to admit his subpar play.

Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…
 
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/25/2023 1:10 pm : link
Necks are nothing to sneeze at.
Death  
Larry in Pencilvania : 11/25/2023 1:15 pm : link
Behind that oline he will die
 
christian : 11/25/2023 1:18 pm : link
I just remember Chao speculating Jones had whiplash, which from my understanding typically causes a neck strain. I don't think the Giants ever reported a description.
RE: That we don't fix the OL  
christian : 11/25/2023 1:21 pm : link
In comment 16300728 Chip said:
Quote:
and he continues getting beat up. Tyrod couldn't last 3 games behind the OL. There is not a QB in college or the NFL who could play behind this group. Washngton had 9 sacks against us and could not get close to Prescott. That should tell the Giants something I hope. Very rarely the Giant QB and step up into a clean pocket.


Cool. What do you think about Jones's current health?
RE: RE: This is his injury history over teh past 4 years  
bigbluewillrise : 11/25/2023 1:29 pm : link
In comment 16300719 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300704 bigbluewillrise said:


Quote:


wow
https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/daniel-jones/10225



You can say the same thing about Burrow, though, no? And he's clearly not waking the plank. Link - ( New Window )



burrow is not a running qb, and you are comparing burrow to jones.

burrow has no concussions and neck injuries.

if jones has accomplished half of what burrow did, the entire fanbase would not be wanting to move off of him.

HUGE difference.
christian  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/25/2023 1:31 pm : link
Seriously?

You're now comparing why a team would wait on Burrow and Jackson with Jones??!!!

If you want to talk injuries, Jones has only played ONE season where he did not miss multiple games. In other words, he's the anti-Eli Manning. He's always hurt.

Beyond that, yeah, two neck injuries, one that ended his 2021 season, is a huge red flag.

Beyond that, he's only effective when running, which leads to more injuries (see Robert Griffin).

Beyond that, let's say he wasn't hurt at all. He's not good. He's allergic to TD passes.
What's the Long Term Worry With Jones's Health?  
M.S. : 11/25/2023 1:31 pm : link

Multiple neck injuries.
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 1:32 pm : link
In comment 16300734 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…


I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.
RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/25/2023 1:34 pm : link
In comment 16300779 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300734 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…



I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.


If that happens, my prediction is Jones is on IR by November and the season is over by Halloween again.
Long term worry  
nochance : 11/25/2023 1:36 pm : link
2 times neck injury which could end his career at any time. The ACL is not the worry
The worry is that he isn't good, and never was  
Go Terps : 11/25/2023 1:38 pm : link
The Giants paid him on spec, buying into the ocean of excuses for his poor play. When Taylor and DeVito blew that myth up and put the Jones debate to rest, the ACL and neck injury became a convenient out... nevermind that they felt comfortable enough with the neck to start him in Vegas.

I said it the day he got hurt: an ACL injury isn't enough to back off your franchise QB in year 1 of his deal.

It is, however, a convenient way to reverse course.
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 1:38 pm : link
In comment 16300783 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

If that happens, my prediction is Jones is on IR by November and the season is over by Halloween again.


If Jones is recovering nicely in the Spring and ahead of his rehab schedule, would you be surprised if the Giants selected an offensive lineman in the first round?
RE: What's the Long Term Worry With Jones's Health?  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 1:38 pm : link
In comment 16300777 M.S. said:
Quote:

Multiple neck injuries.


This. Simple.
RE: Long term worry  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/25/2023 1:38 pm : link
In comment 16300787 nochance said:
Quote:
2 times neck injury which could end his career at any time. The ACL is not the worry


Except, Jones may not be cleared for contact until around the season starts. Will he be able to throw in OTAs, mini-camps, training camp?

We've seen how Jones plays when he practices. A completely rusty Jones would be a joy.
RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/25/2023 1:40 pm : link
In comment 16300794 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300783 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

If that happens, my prediction is Jones is on IR by November and the season is over by Halloween again.



If Jones is recovering nicely in the Spring and ahead of his rehab schedule, would you be surprised if the Giants selected an offensive lineman in the first round?


Yes, I would be shocked if they took an OL in the first round.

If they go with Jones, I may take a break from the Giants for a few years.
RE: RE: RE: This is his injury history over teh past 4 years  
joeinpa : 11/25/2023 1:40 pm : link
In comment 16300773 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
In comment 16300719 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16300704 bigbluewillrise said:


Quote:


wow
https://www.draftsharks.com/fantasy/injury-history/daniel-jones/10225



You can say the same thing about Burrow, though, no? And he's clearly not waking the plank. Link - ( New Window )




burrow is not a running qb, and you are comparing burrow to jones.

burrow has no concussions and neck injuries.

if jones has accomplished half of what burrow did, the entire fanbase would not be wanting to move off of him.

HUGE difference.


The fan base wants to move on from him, the majority. It also seems the responsible thing would be to draft a quarterback.

But of course circumstances will determine that possibility as much as anything.

Point being, while fans have moved on, factoring in all possibilities, Jones might have a better than 50% chance of being the starter next season.

* will he be physically ready
* will they finished with a draft pick to get the guy
* if they draft a qb, will they want him to sit behind Daniel for a bit( if they determine Jones gives them best chance to have a winning season, I doubt they want to go with a rook who is not ready, especially after this season)





I don’t understand the thread  
UConn4523 : 11/25/2023 1:41 pm : link
seems like you already know the answer
Crazy  
MojoEd : 11/25/2023 1:46 pm : link
It’s crazy to me how obstinate some, including fans and presumably NYG ownership, are in refusing to accept that D Jones will never be a thing. It’s not personal; he just doesn’t have it. I fear it won’t be an accepted fact until he has to call it a career because of his neck.
The way they declared Jones healthy after the Taylor injury was fishy  
Go Terps : 11/25/2023 1:47 pm : link
I believe he was healthy enough to play against the Jets but were protecting him from looking bad again in the cross town rivalry in from of a home crowd. Far safer to play him in Vegas.

If you gave Schoen and Daboll truth serum they might be thanking the gods for the ACL injury.

This contract might set a record for shortest period of time before regret kicked in.
 
christian : 11/25/2023 1:58 pm : link
When the dust settles I think this comes down to two independent lines of thinking.

1) Completely separate from his play, has Jones suffered an injury they feel materially diminishes his long term ability? Maybe it's the neck? I doubt it's the ACL.

2) The Giants objectively (as measured in the grading and counting stats) had the worst offensive line in the NFL in Jones's games.

Did Schoen see enough through that, to shock his system into giving up on a quarterback he rewarded with the largest contract and the most guaranteed money in the history of the organization?

I think too many fans presume these are easy, and inevitable decisions.
RE: …  
bigbluewillrise : 11/25/2023 2:08 pm : link
In comment 16300813 christian said:
Quote:
When the dust settles I think this comes down to two independent lines of thinking.

1) Completely separate from his play, has Jones suffered an injury they feel materially diminishes his long term ability? Maybe it's the neck? I doubt it's the ACL.

2) The Giants objectively (as measured in the grading and counting stats) had the worst offensive line in the NFL in Jones's games.

Did Schoen see enough through that, to shock his system into giving up on a quarterback he rewarded with the largest contract and the most guaranteed money in the history of the organization?

I think too many fans presume these are easy, and inevitable decisions.


i think we can all agree the OL was bad.

but that doesnt mean you dismiss 100% of what happened on the field.


taylor/devito looked better with relatively the same supporting cast and coaching. you have to examine that.

it wasnt that daniel jones didnt look great or top 10-15 QB, he was awful.
RE: That we don't fix the OL  
allstarjim : 11/25/2023 2:10 pm : link
In comment 16300728 Chip said:
Quote:
and he continues getting beat up. Tyrod couldn't last 3 games behind the OL. There is not a QB in college or the NFL who could play behind this group. Washngton had 9 sacks against us and could not get close to Prescott. That should tell the Giants something I hope. Very rarely the Giant QB and step up into a clean pocket.


The narrative continues. Tyros didn't get hurt bc of the OL.

He got hurt on a tackle by the sideline, well outside the pocket.
I'd go higher than 50% we roll with Jones next year  
ZGiants98 : 11/25/2023 2:12 pm : link
More like 80%. Even if we draft a QB, there's probably a very good chance Jones is still the QB week 1 with the draftee holding a clip board.

There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.

This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/25/2023 2:12 pm : link
Quote:
He's allergic to TD passes.


This.
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 2:13 pm : link
In comment 16300821 bigbluewillrise said:
Quote:
I think too many fans presume these are easy, and inevitable decisions.

i think we can all agree the OL was bad.

but that doesnt mean you dismiss 100% of what happened on the field.

taylor/devito looked better with relatively the same supporting cast and coaching. you have to examine that.

it wasnt that daniel jones didnt look great or top 10-15 QB, he was awful.


Be that as it may, do you think it's enough for Schoen to look his boss in the eye and say I gave Jones $82M of your money less than a year ago, and I was fabulously wrong?
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 11/25/2023 2:18 pm : link
In comment 16300779 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300734 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…



I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.


That's fine. And I think that's a very distinct possibility.

While I think it would be a horrible decision, especially if we have a chance at a top three QB, I could easily hear Schoen saying nothing has changed since they invested in Jones back in March. He's their guy once healthy.

But bringing in Burrow as a refence is strange. Burrow is great and on a path to Canton. When he's on the field he's one of the three best QBs on the planet. When Jones is on the field, I'm not sure right now if he's the best QB on the team...
Jones  
allstarjim : 11/25/2023 2:19 pm : link
I believe he revealed he had pain radiating down his arm related to the neck injury. That's nerve pain.

If a disc in your spine slips out from where it should be between the vertebrae, it is easier for it to happen again.

I also know this from personal experience and consults with doctors.

Big picture, he's missed a lot of games in his career, and if he doesn't run, you take away the most effective part of his game. When he runs, his instincts don't seem to be to protect himself often enough...he'll lower a shoulder to try to get the extra yard or two, and while in a football sense you love that, you'd rather your QB not take big hits.
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 2:24 pm : link
In comment 16300834 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

That's fine. And I think that's a very distinct possibility.

While I think it would be a horrible decision, especially if we have a chance at a top three QB, I could easily hear Schoen saying nothing has changed since they invested in Jones back in March. He's their guy once healthy.

But bringing in Burrow as a refence is strange. Burrow is great and on a path to Canton. When he's on the field he's one of the three best QBs on the planet. When Jones is on the field, I'm not sure right now if he's the best QB on the team...


That's my point. You don't give up on talent over an ACL. So the talk of replacing him over the knee is disingenuous.

If the Giants give up on him, it's a talent, not health issue.
My biggest worry about Jones  
cpgiants : 11/25/2023 2:24 pm : link
Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.
regardless of the OL  
bigbluewillrise : 11/25/2023 2:32 pm : link
he played bad.

they tried to go to a pass first offense adn even when factoring the OL in, he failed at taking the next step.

can he run a run first offense with quick game and short passing game? sure.

can he beat up on ed donattel type defense and Indy type defenses last year? sure.

can he beat top 10 defenses with those type of gameplans? no chance.

everyone saying nothing changed is delusional. yes the OL was bad, but we learnt a significant amount.
RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 2:43 pm : link
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:
Quote:
Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.


OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.
RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
allstarjim : 11/25/2023 2:44 pm : link
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:
Quote:
Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.


FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.

RE: RE: ...  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 2:59 pm : link
In comment 16300797 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16300794 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16300783 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

If that happens, my prediction is Jones is on IR by November and the season is over by Halloween again.



If Jones is recovering nicely in the Spring and ahead of his rehab schedule, would you be surprised if the Giants selected an offensive lineman in the first round?



Yes, I would be shocked if they took an OL in the first round.

If they go with Jones, I may take a break from the Giants for a few years.


Same
Necks are nothing to play with.  
Mike from SI : 11/25/2023 3:06 pm : link
It almost always involves your spine. It's very ballsy that Peyton played for a few years after having an ACDF (which I have also had).

I can't believe you ask what's the worry with Jones' health when he's been injured almost every year, btw. The biggest predictor of injuries in sports is previous injuries.
RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 3:09 pm : link
In comment 16300865 jinkies said:
Quote:
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.


Lmfao. No it isn't.
 
christian : 11/25/2023 3:11 pm : link
My question is more around what is most likely to happen given the financial and management realities.

What I want to happen is typically very different than what I think will happen.
RE: Necks are nothing to play with.  
christian : 11/25/2023 3:13 pm : link
In comment 16300901 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
It almost always involves your spine. It's very ballsy that Peyton played for a few years after having an ACDF (which I have also had).

I can't believe you ask what's the worry with Jones' health when he's been injured almost every year, btw. The biggest predictor of injuries in sports is previous injuries.


His neck wasn't serious enough to IR him this year, and an ACL certainly isn't enough to move on from him.

Same question I posed above, do you think the Ravens or Bengals would use a first round pick if their quarterbacks had the same injuries Jones has?
RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 3:13 pm : link
In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.


It's a very valid concern. You can say it is based on injury. However, every team deals with injuries. It is way deeper than that. Depth was/is a problem just as our starters are a problem. Neal not developing is a huge issue. Our guard have played musical chairs all year both due to injury and due to performance. If you don't think the OL is a factor in how a young QB develops then I don't know what to tell you. No, it doesn't mean we shouldn't pull the trigger on a QB in the draft but the OL needs to be fixed. Does anyone have confidence that that management or the coaching staff can fix the issue? I don't. They've shown nothing to earn our trust.
RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 3:16 pm : link
In comment 16300906 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300865 jinkies said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.



Lmfao. No it isn't.


Lmfao yes it is. Are you accustomed to blindly accepting bullshit sports truisms.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
robbieballs2003 : 11/25/2023 3:17 pm : link
In comment 16300917 jinkies said:
Quote:
In comment 16300906 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 16300865 jinkies said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.



Lmfao. No it isn't.



Lmfao yes it is. Are you accustomed to blindly accepting bullshit sports truisms.


And you're an idiot. Have you ever played? You soujd beyond ignorant.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 3:20 pm : link
In comment 16300918 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300917 jinkies said:


Quote:


In comment 16300906 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


In comment 16300865 jinkies said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.



Lmfao. No it isn't.



Lmfao yes it is. Are you accustomed to blindly accepting bullshit sports truisms.



And you're an idiot. Have you ever played? You soujd beyond ignorant.


There isn't any evidence OLs *break* QBs. And you sound like a numbskull.
RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jo  
joe48 : 11/25/2023 3:28 pm : link
In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.

How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.



RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jo  
jinkies : 11/25/2023 3:33 pm : link
In comment 16300936 joe48 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.



How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.




It's funny how people have been complaining about the line for 5 years and despite different coaches and linemen it never gets better. Might be time to consider the QBs role in stabilizing the line.
RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jo  
allstarjim : 11/25/2023 4:14 pm : link
In comment 16300936 joe48 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.



How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.




Again, I want you to research how many different combinations of starting OL we've had this year. That's a big part of your answer. They've had 10 different guys make starts this year. I'm not saying do nothing, I'm saying that part of the problem has been injuries leading to players being counted on we would hope we wouldn't have to count on. Part of that problem is a lack of quality depth.

And we should address those problems, as well as the QB position, bc Jones is a failure and does that line no favors.
Christian- you haven’t been paying attention  
Dave on the UWS : 11/25/2023 4:16 pm : link
to the details have you? His first neck injury was severe enough to shut him down for the rest of 21.
He wasn’t cleared for contact until OTAs.
That tells me the nerves in his spinal column were
Involved.
This year HE reported he has weakness in his arm and the beats reported
“Concussion like symptoms”
Immediately after the neck injury. It’s “highly likely”
he had the same sort of trauma to his neck.
Obviously, we don’t know for sure, but each time there is an injury like this, a person is much MORE susceptible to further injuries.
The scary part, is each injury runs a higher risk of permanent injury (like paralysis.
He’s a ticking time bomb and it would be irresponsible on behalf of management to tie the team’s future to him.
(I’ve said, if he was smart, he would retire).
which is better for Schoen in the long term?  
PerpetualNervousness : 11/25/2023 4:25 pm : link
let's take the underlying premise here seriously - that the issue is Schoen's willingness to move on from his decision to resign Jones. so which is better for him:

1) he sticks with Jones because he's afraid to say to Mara we made a mistake, emphasis on we, given the clear evidence Mara wanted to resign Jones?

2) he picks a young QB the early rounds this season, when his QB is coming off a terrible year and a pair of injuries, one of which could certainly impact his play in the upcoming season?

I would argue that the only benefit to him in choosing path 1 is that he and Daboll are completely sold on Jones as legitimate Super Bowl winning QB. otherwise, he's just basically trying to hang on to the job for a little longer until he will get fired. another crappy year behind Jones, especially if they had a chance at a much better QB, and he won't be protected. whereas a young QB who shows some improvement under Daboll likely buys him more time.
the injuries, by themselves,  
fkap : 11/25/2023 4:28 pm : link
don't spell the end of Jones' career here. Ditto the talent level. But if you combine the two, AND if a top QB prospect is staring them in the face on draft day, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Giants draft a QB. But, at the same time, the Giants are not so desperate that a pick has to be forced. That latter point may disappoint a LOT of folk, but we simply don't know how the draft is going to play out, so talking in absolutes is foolish. We certainly don't know the level of commitment from management/coaching/ownership.

I think it highly likely he's the starting QB on opening day IF he's healthy enough. That is regardless of whether they draft a QB or not. He may only be keeping the seat warm, but he will have a part to play in blue next year.
RE: ...  
BigBlueShock : 11/25/2023 4:37 pm : link
In comment 16300779 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300734 BigBlueShock said:


Quote:


Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…



I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

Jones may end up the “presumptive starter” but that doesn’t mean he’s thought of as the long term answer. The Giants have scouts at the games of the big time QB prospects every single week. And if you track where the GM is on Saturdays (and sometimes Friday nights) Schoen is watching these QBs with his own eyes. Every week he chooses to go to one of the games that just happens to have one of the top QBs coming into the draft.

They may end up not taking a QB in the first round but it damn sure won’t be because they simply weren’t interested in exploring other options at the position
RE: RE: Necks are nothing to play with.  
BrettNYG10 : 11/25/2023 4:55 pm : link
In comment 16300911 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300901 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


It almost always involves your spine. It's very ballsy that Peyton played for a few years after having an ACDF (which I have also had).

I can't believe you ask what's the worry with Jones' health when he's been injured almost every year, btw. The biggest predictor of injuries in sports is previous injuries.



His neck wasn't serious enough to IR him this year, and an ACL certainly isn't enough to move on from him.

Same question I posed above, do you think the Ravens or Bengals would use a first round pick if their quarterbacks had the same injuries Jones has?


I actually think the Ravens might if they had a top five pick.
 
christian : 11/25/2023 5:02 pm : link
I think the more likely outcome is the Giants pick a quarterback on the second round, and give Jones every opportunity to regain his job.

My guess is Jones starts on PUP and DeVito begins the year as the starter, with the rookie as a backup. And I think as soon as Jones is cleared, he's the starter next year.

I think Jones's journey on the plausible deniability train continues for another year.
RE: Christian- you haven’t been paying attention  
christian : 11/25/2023 5:03 pm : link
In comment 16300986 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
to the details have you? His first neck injury was severe enough to shut him down for the rest of 21.


Both Jones and the Giants confirmed he was cleared for contact in January 2022.
RE: …  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/25/2023 5:05 pm : link
In comment 16301041 christian said:
Quote:
I think the more likely outcome is the Giants pick a quarterback on the second round, and give Jones every opportunity to regain his job.

My guess is Jones starts on PUP and DeVito begins the year as the starter, with the rookie as a backup. And I think as soon as Jones is cleared, he's the starter next year.

I think Jones's journey on the plausible deniability train continues for another year.


What?
 
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 11/25/2023 5:08 pm : link
The premise behind this thread is so weird. The dude has had multiple neck injuries-which are a BFD-& tore his ACL, when his strongest strength as a QB is his mobility.
RE: I'd go higher than 50% we roll with Jones next year  
gridirony : 11/25/2023 5:08 pm : link
In comment 16300828 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
More like 80%. Even if we draft a QB, there's probably a very good chance Jones is still the QB week 1 with the draftee holding a clip board.

There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.

This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.


There certainly is a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Like the claim that Jones has barely played, while he started 6 of their 11 games.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jo  
joeinpa : 11/25/2023 5:09 pm : link
In comment 16300944 jinkies said:
Quote:
In comment 16300936 joe48 said:


Quote:


In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.



How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.






It's funny how people have been complaining about the line for 5 years and despite different coaches and linemen it never gets better. Might be time to consider the QBs role in stabilizing the line.


When Thomas went down, Jones played behind a dysfunctional line, you really want to hold Jones responsible for their performance, ok, I don’t think it s a valid point, but ok

Did you give him credit for the line functioning well enough to get into and win a playoff game last season, or are you one of the, “weak opponent guys”?
Long term worry on Jones'  
section125 : 11/25/2023 5:10 pm : link
health is his head...
RE: What's the Long Term Worry With Jones's Health?  
k2tampa : 11/25/2023 5:23 pm : link
In comment 16300777 M.S. said:
Quote:

Multiple neck injuries.


The long term worry with Jones health is having to play behind this O line.
Two Thoughts  
Samiam : 11/25/2023 5:32 pm : link
First, the comparison to Lamar Jackson re: injuries is way off base. Jackson is a far better QB than Jones and thats an understatement. Second, there is a zero chance that DeVito begins next year as the starter next year no matter what happens. You can say we’ll see what happens for the rest of the year but I can’t believe they can’t find someone much better. Even the Jets with their moronic QB moves wouldnt be that stupid & I suspect tomorrow Belichick will prove that point.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
LW_Giants : 11/25/2023 5:34 pm : link
In comment 16300891 jinkies said:
Quote:
In comment 16300797 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 16300794 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 16300783 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I've actually come around to believe Jones will be the presumptive starter and the Giants won't pick a QB on round one.

I think when the dust settles Jones's health won't be a big factor.

If that happens, my prediction is Jones is on IR by November and the season is over by Halloween again.



If Jones is recovering nicely in the Spring and ahead of his rehab schedule, would you be surprised if the Giants selected an offensive lineman in the first round?



Yes, I would be shocked if they took an OL in the first round.

If they go with Jones, I may take a break from the Giants for a few years.



Same


Me too
I don't think Schoen flying all over the country is a charade  
Sean : 11/25/2023 5:38 pm : link
He's looked at all the QB prospects in person. If Schoen neglects QB and just rolls the dice with Jones next year, he's incompetent and isn't long for the job.

Schoen & Daboll took awhile to be sold on Jones.

-Declined the 5th year option
-Did not discuss a contract during the bye week in 2022
-The contract Jones did get had an escape hatch after year 2 and is nowhere near the guarantees that Hurts, Herbert and Burrow just got.

Since then, Jones has missed 3 1/2 games due to his 2nd neck injury and tore his ACL.

If Jones was given a contract comparable to Hurts, I'd say this is a non issue. But, he wasn't.

Is it possible the Giants don't draft a QB because the value isn't there? Sure. But I'm very confident a QB is selected by the end of the 2nd round.

Could Jones be the presumptive starter? Sure, I guess. But, he'll have strong competition. Whether it's someone drafted early or someone Schoen trades for (Fields for example), Jones will not be on a scholarship.

If he is, you don't think highly of Schoen.
My feelings about DJ and his situation  
AROCK1000 : 11/25/2023 5:52 pm : link
Have not really changed
This season has been a cluster fuck and we all liked DJ but not loved him
His contract is structured in a way that 2024 is likely the end of the road..
OL or even Edge makes sense here..
I have made my feelings clear about Marvin Harrison Jr..but that's not very likely
Chasing a QB who really hasn't shown they are worth Chasing makes less than zero chance....2 weeks ago everyone was gaga for JJ...now he shows to be a game manager type at the COLLEGE level...
DJ has 1 more season here...and if we are all lucky 2
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 6:14 pm : link
In comment 16301070 Samiam said:
Quote:
Second, there is a zero chance that DeVito begins next year as the starter next year no matter what happens.


Jones will earn 36M in new cash next year, and will have a cap charge of 47M, which they are unlikely to lower.

The Giants are very unlikely to add significant salary for the third QB on the roster, especially if they draft a QB on round one or two.

DeVito has a very good chance of being on the roster, and being the opening day starter of Jones is not available.
...  
christian : 11/25/2023 6:17 pm : link
In comment 16301074 Sean said:
Quote:
He's looked at all the QB prospects in person.


If the Giants find themselves outside of tbe top 10, I don't think the calculus is so easy to just pay Jones 36M next year and spend additional resources to move up.

I think there's a very good chance round two is where the Giants pick a QB.
christian  
Sean : 11/25/2023 6:32 pm : link
I don't disagree. Jones may be QB1 on the depth chart, but the strongest investment since the 2019 draft will be made to QB.

I still think Schoen will try everything to move up. But, that will be hard to do,

I'm warming up to trading a day 3 pick for Fields if NYG falls outside of the top QB's.
RE: RE: What's the Long Term Worry With Jones's Health?  
uther99 : 11/25/2023 6:45 pm : link
In comment 16300795 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16300777 M.S. said:


Quote:



Multiple neck injuries.



This. Simple.


Not to a troll
RE: RE: Christian- you haven’t been paying attention  
shyster : 11/25/2023 6:55 pm : link
In comment 16301042 christian said:
Quote:



Both Jones and the Giants confirmed he was cleared for contact in January 2022.


On April 4, 2022, Jones was asked about being ready for September and said, "I'll be cleared and ready to go", using the future tense.

On June 7, 2022, Daboll said that Jones would be cleared to play if the Giants had a game that week, and that was a news headline.

Jones was then asked by reporters for the date on which he was cleared for contact and wouldn't give it, saying it was irrelevant. He said it happened sometime after the Giants were no longer playing games.

I didn't find any statements from Jones or the Giants saying he had been cleared for contact in January 2022.
bbv april - ( New Window )
RE: RE: …  
IchabodGiant : 11/25/2023 6:56 pm : link
In comment 16300734 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
In comment 16300709 christian said:


Quote:


None of those injuries are typically long term issues. The ACL will certainly impact his play next year, both from a timing and ability perspective, but it's not a career altering injury.

If say Lamar Jackson tore his ACL this weekend, would Baltimore fold it up and inevitably replace him?


You’re one of my favorite posters and we have been in lock step in regards to needing to move on from Jones but I have to say, your recent posts that repeated on this topic are bizarre. We all know you want to move on from Jones so we also know that these posts about Jones’ injuries not being long term have absolutely nothing to do with it being you promoting Jones as the future QB. So what’s the purpose of these posts and threads?

I’m guessing (with a very high probability of being right) that you’ve recently decided that it would be clever to root out the Jones fans that say they believe in Jones but suddenly have decided it may be time to move on because of the injuries. It’s their escape hatch without having to admit his subpar play.

Come on christian. You have too much time on your hands. You’re better than these lame ass attempts at “gotcha” moments…


+1
RE: RE: RE: Christian- you haven’t been paying attention  
shyster : 11/25/2023 6:56 pm : link
***
bbv june - ( New Window )
There is no long term worry  
Sammo85 : 11/25/2023 7:11 pm : link
Because the future doesn’t involve Jones beyond 2024.

Mic drop.
RE: I'd go higher than 50% we roll with Jones next year  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/25/2023 7:22 pm : link
In comment 16300828 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
More like 80%. Even if we draft a QB, there's probably a very good chance Jones is still the QB week 1 with the draftee holding a clip board.

There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.

This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.


Jones played in six games. He didn't throw a TD in five of them.
I know it's a figure of speech, but no one is holding a clipboard  
Sean : 11/25/2023 7:40 pm : link
Jones will be holding a Microsoft tablet at some point next year, probably similar to the one Daboll threw down in disgust.
Jones has missed multiple games in 6 of 8 years  
HardTruth : 11/25/2023 8:07 pm : link
Dating back to college

He has had sustained season ending injuries in 2 of last 3 years

In addition, he has 2 neck injuries, 2 concussions and a clavicle injury over this time PLUS a neck surgery in the offseason which he said was unrelated to the injury he had but left him with an apparent scar.

“Asked about offseason pictures that appeared to show a surgical scar on his upper chest, Jones insisted the procedure was unrelated to his injury. "I had a non-football-related procedure done on my neck," Jones said, per ESPN.”


He has also had 3 different high ankle sprains and a hamstring pull and now the ACL injury

Ive got 23 missed games in 8 seasons  
HardTruth : 11/25/2023 8:11 pm : link
Not counting the games he was injured in
Try to look at it from Schoen's (and Mara's) perspective  
Go Terps : 11/25/2023 8:44 pm : link
You just paid Jones. He played less than 6 games this season before going out with an ACL. If you pivot from Jones now you're admitting you were a moron to pay him.

Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
Are you seriously comparing Daniel Jones to Joe Burrow?  
GiantTuff1 : 11/25/2023 8:58 pm : link
That’s like comparing Dan Marino to Dave Brown.
Jones is not a good starting NFL QB end of story.  
GiantTuff1 : 11/25/2023 9:01 pm : link
He’ll stick in the league as a bandaid upper tier backup, but he is not a franchise QB like Burrow. You wait on franchise QB’s not middling players who’s production can be superseded by an undrafted free agent and career journeyman.
RE: Try to look at it from Schoen's (and Mara's) perspective  
Sean : 11/25/2023 9:14 pm : link
In comment 16301236 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You just paid Jones. He played less than 6 games this season before going out with an ACL. If you pivot from Jones now you're admitting you were a moron to pay him.

Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.

I don't disagree. But, you could also look at it from the angle that they'd already be halfway through a 2 year deal.
It's not about whether Jones is good  
Go Terps : 11/25/2023 9:16 pm : link
Jones sucks. He always has.

But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.

If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.

So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.

There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:

1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.

Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...
*backing up  
Go Terps : 11/25/2023 9:17 pm : link
.
Go Terps - Interesting Thought  
MojoEd : 11/25/2023 9:38 pm : link
I almost expect DJ’s career will end prematurely due to his neck and fans do tend to give a pass to decision makers when a player has an injury shortened career.
RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jones  
Johnny5 : 11/25/2023 9:45 pm : link
In comment 16300865 jinkies said:
Quote:
In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



OLs ruining QBs is an unsubstantiated myth.

Says who? You?
 
christian : 11/25/2023 9:46 pm : link
I definitely misremembered Jones being cleared in January of 2022. It was a source that said he was close to being cleared.
Quote:
The team and quarterback have been steadfast about their belief that the neck injury Jones suffered late last year would not be a long-term problem. A source said that Jones was actually close to returning before the end of the season back in early January.

My general feeling remains the same. These aren't career ending injuries. And if a better player, like Burrow, had the same set of injuries, the Bengals wouldn't be considering replacing him.

Now, if the argument is Jones isn't very good, I get that.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Necks are nothing to play with.  
Johnny5 : 11/25/2023 9:57 pm : link
In comment 16300911 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 16300901 Mike from SI said:


Quote:


It almost always involves your spine. It's very ballsy that Peyton played for a few years after having an ACDF (which I have also had).

I can't believe you ask what's the worry with Jones' health when he's been injured almost every year, btw. The biggest predictor of injuries in sports is previous injuries.



His neck wasn't serious enough to IR him this year, and an ACL certainly isn't enough to move on from him.

Same question I posed above, do you think the Ravens or Bengals would use a first round pick if their quarterbacks had the same injuries Jones has?

Well I think you already know the answer. The deal was already structured in a "prove it" way as it is. Then the season starts and the OL was awful, with crucial injuries right away (Thomas) and Jones certainly didn't play well at all regardless. Add to that the injuries to his neck and ACL with an out for them after 2024, I really think it's a no brainer that we are drafting a QB this year. He certainly hasn't been good enough or consistent enough for this staff to put all of their eggs into that basket for next year. IMO of course. I think we draft a QB and they let them duke it out in preseason. No harm in riding DJ if he comes back as the starter with a young QB on the bench, while they continue to build up the team depth (and God, hopefully the OL some more). I guess it depends on where we pick but I'd be shocked if DJ is on this team after 2024, personally.
 
christian : 11/25/2023 10:10 pm : link
If the Giants do pick a quarterback on the first round, they'd be insane to play Jones a single snap next year.

They should wrap that guy in bubble wrap and make him inactive every game. No way should they risk him getting hurt and his injury guarantee kick in.
RE: …  
Toth029 : 11/26/2023 5:49 am : link
In comment 16301254 christian said:
Quote:
I definitely misremembered Jones being cleared in January of 2022. It was a source that said he was close to being cleared.


Quote:


The team and quarterback have been steadfast about their belief that the neck injury Jones suffered late last year would not be a long-term problem. A source said that Jones was actually close to returning before the end of the season back in early January.


My general feeling remains the same. These aren't career ending injuries. And if a better player, like Burrow, had the same set of injuries, the Bengals wouldn't be considering replacing him.

Now, if the argument is Jones isn't very good, I get that. Link - ( New Window )


I thought the question was in regards to his health. Like I said, a torn ACL is something that won't derail him and his athleticism. He was a straight line speed player. Not joking everybody out. He trucked Grady Jarrett. The kid is strong.

If you aren't a medical doctor, much less even examined him yourself, how are you so convinced his neck injuries aren't career threatening?
Jones' health  
HBart : 11/26/2023 7:37 am : link
Is his neck an issue? It's impossible to know. The team's doctors might or not think so, and we haven't a clue.

His ACL isn't an issue exactly. The issue is time.

When last seen, Jones played poorly. That it was under unusually extreme adverse circumstances makes it explainable, but the results were still abysmal.

The ACL means the Giants are drafting - at whatever position - before Jones is recovered. His short-term health impairs the Giants in making 2024 roster and draft decisions. Long-term health concerns, if any, factor into those decisions -- but we have no idea.
...  
christian : 11/26/2023 8:05 am : link
In comment 16301326 Toth029 said:
Quote:
If you aren't a medical doctor, much less even examined him yourself, how are you so convinced his neck injuries aren't career threatening?


When Jones and the Giants say his neck injuries won't have a long term impact, I'm assuming that comes from a medical doctor.
There are so many variables  
Sean : 11/26/2023 8:43 am : link
I think Schoen knows he needs to land a QB, and this is most likely the time to do it. So, if he has a strong conviction on any of these guys, he'll try to make a move to land him like Beane/Schoen did in Buffalo.

Given the way Schoen structured the Jones contract which you gave credit to Schoen for, christian - I'd imagine you would agree. Look at when the 3rd year guarantees kick in - this was a 2nd tier QB contract at best, maybe 3rd tier. So, any comparison to Burrow getting hurt makes no sense. Schoen did not value Jones anywhere near the same way as the Bengals value Burrow.
RE: It's not about whether Jones is good  
section125 : 11/26/2023 9:06 am : link
In comment 16301249 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Jones sucks. He always has.

But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.

If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.

So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.

There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:

1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.

Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...


It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.

A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.

Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.

I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.

You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.
RE: Try to look at it from Schoen's (and Mara's) perspective  
SomeFan : 11/26/2023 9:13 am : link
In comment 16301236 Go Terps said:
Quote:
You just paid Jones. He played less than 6 games this season before going out with an ACL. If you pivot from Jones now you're admitting you were a moron to pay him.

Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.
This. The need to save face by Jones retiring. However, I still think they draft a QB somewhere in the first three rounds.
RE: RE: Try to look at it from Schoen's (and Mara's) perspective  
jinkies : 11/26/2023 9:23 am : link
In comment 16301393 SomeFan said:
Quote:
In comment 16301236 Go Terps said:


Quote:


You just paid Jones. He played less than 6 games this season before going out with an ACL. If you pivot from Jones now you're admitting you were a moron to pay him.

Take away empathy for an injured player...the BEST thing that could happen for Schoen and ownership is that Jones can't come back from the knee and/or the neck is worse than they thought. The front office needs something to rescue them from this blunder.

This. The need to save face by Jones retiring. However, I still think they draft a QB somewhere in the first three rounds.


It makes more sense to admit defeat than find a way for him to retire because of the $23M injury clause which will cripple our cap for a SECOND season (2024 AND 2025).

Anyway, it's extremely unlikely it would work. Jones was already cleared for contact for the neck injury so it is not realistic that an independent medical examination would force his retirement for that. And we all know ACL injuries can be repaired, and almost all NFL athletes continue their careers eventually.
 
christian : 11/26/2023 9:30 am : link
I agree with you Sean.

I'm simply making (the slightly nuanced) point these aren't the types of injuries fans, coaches, GMs etc. would normally want to dump their guy over.

As you pointed out, the Giants didn't make a big commitment to Jones, so maybe the injuries prove to be a final straw so to speak.

What the Giants do on the first round is obviously a vote of no/confidence in Jones. My guess is after some rehab and time, the decision won't be so easy and obvious for the Giants. Especially if they fall outside of the top 10 in the draft.

Schoen and Mara would have to believe after a handful of games behind a disaster of a line, and one year into a contract, that they were unequivocally wrong about Jones. And despite owing Jones 36M, they should spend potentially many valuable draft picks to replace him.
Does the QB matter  
Giants : 11/26/2023 9:35 am : link
When you watch this OL does it matter who the QB is? For me any QB behind this OL is in trouble.
RE: Does the QB matter  
ThomasG : 11/26/2023 9:40 am : link
In comment 16301413 Giants said:
Quote:
When you watch this OL does it matter who the QB is? For me any QB behind this OL is in trouble.


Ok, but do that mean just get complacent at QB?

Always be upgrading.
The Giants can't force a QB pick  
Sean : 11/26/2023 9:47 am : link
Quote:
What the Giants do on the first round is obviously a vote of no/confidence in Jones. My guess is after some rehab and time, the decision won't be so easy and obvious for the Giants. Especially if they fall outside of the top 10 in the draft.

Schoen and Mara would have to believe after a handful of games behind a disaster of a line, and one year into a contract, that they were unequivocally wrong about Jones. And despite owing Jones 36M, they should spend potentially many valuable draft picks to replace him.

The question becomes does Schoen view Jones' deal as a 2 year commitment? If he does, he will be an expensive backup who I can't imagine will take a snap given the injury guarantee in 2025. Schoen will move off him after next season and save roughly $19M on the cap.

If they view Jones as a 3 year commitment, I think he'll have a good chance to be the starter and a significant investment (2nd round QB) will be developed behind him with the hopes to eventually start. But, Jones has the opportunity to reestablish himself.
 
christian : 11/26/2023 9:49 am : link
The other factor that bears repeating -- if they do in fact give up on Jones -- the unequivocal right move is to keep him off the field 100% in 2024.

Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.

Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.

If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.
RE: …  
Sean : 11/26/2023 9:52 am : link
In comment 16301427 christian said:
Quote:
The other factor that bears repeating -- if they do in fact give up on Jones -- the unequivocal right move is to keep him off the field 100% in 2024.

Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.

Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.

If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.

Absolutely. I think given the unique circumstances, the Giants will need to carry 3 QB's. Team Jones will hate this though. Not sure how that plays out.
RE: Does the QB matter  
cosmicj : 11/26/2023 9:56 am : link
In comment 16301413 Giants said:
Quote:
When you watch this OL does it matter who the QB is? For me any QB behind this OL is in trouble.


Did you watch the Miami game, where Taylor entered and immediately the sack rate declined? Or the fact that an undrafted rookie QB played last week and put up a QB rating higher than any Jones has ever put up in the NFL?

No one’s arguing that the OL doesn’t need to be improved. But no realistic OL can function ahead of Jones. He’s a major part of the OL problem.
RE: RE: Does the QB matter  
jinkies : 11/26/2023 9:59 am : link
In comment 16301434 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 16301413 Giants said:


Quote:


When you watch this OL does it matter who the QB is? For me any QB behind this OL is in trouble.



Did you watch the Miami game, where Taylor entered and immediately the sack rate declined? Or the fact that an undrafted rookie QB played last week and put up a QB rating higher than any Jones has ever put up in the NFL?

No one’s arguing that the OL doesn’t need to be improved. But no realistic OL can function ahead of Jones. He’s a major part of the OL problem.


You would think after 5 years of watching how impossible it is to fix the OL, it doesn’t need to be said that the QB plays an essential role in stabilizing the line. But it needs to be said.
...  
christian : 11/26/2023 10:00 am : link
In comment 16301431 Sean said:
Quote:
The other factor that bears repeating -- if they do in fact give up on Jones -- the unequivocal right move is to keep him off the field 100% in 2024.

Risking an injury and triggering his injury guarantee on 2025 would be cause to be fired.

Now imagine that drama. If you have Jones and a top 5 pick at QB, you have ~55M in cap space tied up on QB already, so your third QB is likely a very inexpensive player.

If that rookie or cheap backup struggle, and a healthy Jones is relegated to the bench for financial reasons, good luck Daboll.

Absolutely. I think given the unique circumstances, the Giants will need to carry 3 QB's. Team Jones will hate this though. Not sure how that plays out.


Now imagine they've franchised Barkley. That would be 2017 drama all over again.

I think your above scenario is the most likely: accept Jones will be a Giant in 2024/2025, and draft a QB on round two to develop behind him.

And anyone with designs of taking a break from the Giants if they don't make a big investment in QB, should put the down payment on their green fees this week.
Unless you believe Schoen is totally incompetent as GM  
Bob in Newburgh : 11/26/2023 10:05 am : link
He will trust the decision, we must assume, he made last year. That decision on DJ was made evaluating a QB behind a poor offensive line (poor might be sanguine) and no alpha receiver.

That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.

Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.

QB vantages and commitments change on dime in NFL  
Sammo85 : 11/26/2023 10:30 am : link
This idea the Giants have said Jones is their franchise guy is a little nuts. Yes they overpaid short term but situations are what they are year to year and frankly it’s a two year deal. The finagled cap hit moved from Year 1 and extended into Year 3 basically requires a decision next offseason.

RE: RE: It's not about whether Jones is good  
Go Terps : 11/26/2023 12:04 pm : link
In comment 16301385 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16301249 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Jones sucks. He always has.

But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.

If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.

So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.

There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:

1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.

Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...



It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.

A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.

Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.

I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.

You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.


Not interested in preserving the feelings of those who were tanking victory laps on something that was always complete bullshit.
*taking  
Go Terps : 11/26/2023 12:08 pm : link
.
RE: Unless you believe Schoen is totally incompetent as GM  
ThomasG : 11/26/2023 12:08 pm : link
In comment 16301443 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
He will trust the decision, we must assume, he made last year. That decision on DJ was made evaluating a QB behind a poor offensive line (poor might be sanguine) and no alpha receiver.

That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.

Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.


If you trust Schoen to make the same decision he did with Jones last year then he is totally incompetent.
RE: Unless you believe Schoen is totally incompetent as GM  
Go Terps : 11/26/2023 12:21 pm : link
In comment 16301443 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
He will trust the decision, we must assume, he made last year. That decision on DJ was made evaluating a QB behind a poor offensive line (poor might be sanguine) and no alpha receiver.

That logic suggests a draft bias away from QB. Certainly if braintrust is convinced a QB is a generational type talent, we will select that QB or wait for an offer we cannot refuse. This would involve moving down at most a few slots to pick up major 2024 picks.

Major must have for this team is an easy 1st read receiver. I believe we have the complements, perhaps in Hyatt and Robinson, big play complements at that, but both currently have limitations to their game although when I see Kafka's offense I see little evidence of a genius at work.


There is logic to this, but Schoen's first decision was to move on from Jones. He reversed himself after putting not to pick up the fifth year option.

That ended up being very foolish. Many fans would have whined and cried, but the correct move was to enter the 2023 season with Taylor as the bridge QB. If reversing himself makes the GM incompetent, signing Jones reflected incompetence.
 
christian : 11/26/2023 12:47 pm : link
I like Schoen, because he comes off bright and reasonable.

But let's be real -- his operating thesis so far has been build around the players he inherited from Gettleman.

Of course it's early, and certainly this draft class has both flashed and has plenty of time to develop.

But I'd argue the only clear cut big additions he's made are Thibs, McFadden, and Okereke. Glowinksi has been a disaster, Waller looks like a mistake, Campbell is virtual nothing. Neal has been very bad etc.

I bring that up because I don't make any assumptions that he's destined to make a good decision with anything.
RE: RE: I'd go higher than 50% we roll with Jones next year  
ZGiants98 : 11/26/2023 1:22 pm : link
In comment 16301176 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 16300828 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


More like 80%. Even if we draft a QB, there's probably a very good chance Jones is still the QB week 1 with the draftee holding a clip board.

There's also a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Many who are bringing up college injuries and his neck injury from two years ago were all in on Jones only a few months ago.

This disaster of a season, in which Jones has barely played, shouldn't have altered opinions this much IMO.



Jones played in six games. He didn't throw a TD in five of them.


Disingenuous. He missed almost the entire "6th game" and left early in another. And I guess we should ignore the fact that Thomas and JMS were out for almost all of that (our only two passable lineman) and forget that Jones was on pace to break the all time NFL record for sacks.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My biggest worry about Jo  
allstarjim : 11/28/2023 2:28 pm : link
In comment 16301050 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 16300944 jinkies said:


Quote:


In comment 16300936 joe48 said:


Quote:


In comment 16300869 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 16300848 cpgiants said:


Quote:


Is that there is no such thing as a can't miss quarterback prospect, and our line is bad enough to ruin anyone who dreams of throwing the ball down the field with regularity.



FFS.

Stop with all the had-wringing over the line.

Much of the problems with the line have been related to injury.

It was Josh Ezeudu, playing LT for an injured Andrew Thomas, that led to the hit and first Jones' injury this year (the neck).

Further, there is relative youth on the line in JMS and Neal, who certainly can and likely will get better. Neal was showing improvement prior to his latest injury

Finally and most importantly, "this offensive line" isn't necessarily next year's OL. The biggest problem on the line this year is the OG play (when Thomas has been active). The Giants can address this in free agency. They can add quality depth in free agency and the draft

The line this year will be different next year, and that would be true even if we were talking about the same players.

QB is the most important position WRT wins and losses. You can't be afraid to make a pick bc of last year's personnel, that's absurd.



How can you say that ? We have the worst run blocking and pass blocking line in the league. Ranked last. Get the new QB but fix the line. Dak had all day to pass against Washington on Thanksgiving Day.






It's funny how people have been complaining about the line for 5 years and despite different coaches and linemen it never gets better. Might be time to consider the QBs role in stabilizing the line.



When Thomas went down, Jones played behind a dysfunctional line, you really want to hold Jones responsible for their performance, ok, I don’t think it s a valid point, but ok

Did you give him credit for the line functioning well enough to get into and win a playoff game last season, or are you one of the, “weak opponent guys”?


Minnesota had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last season. It's a fact.

I said all along that DJ showed some good things in those games, but he had another step forward to make, and that was to play well against good defenses. He still hasn't made that step. Of course there have been other factors that have been less than ideal. But it doesn't absolve him completely when he has shit the bed.

At some point, you run out of chances. Will he get another chance next year? Maybe. But the time has come for this org to plan for a post-DJ world in 2025.
RE: RE: It's not about whether Jones is good  
Thegratefulhead : 11/28/2023 2:45 pm : link
In comment 16301385 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16301249 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Jones sucks. He always has.

But they committed to him for 2024 and a good chunk of change in 2025. The owner and his media puppets are on the record backing IP the fiction that Jones is a good player.

If Jones were a good player it wouldn't make sense to draft a QB high in round 1. It would make sense to draft one of the blue chip offensive pieces like Harrison or Fashanu.

So the question is how much do the Giants still believe the fiction that Jones is a good player? They're going to have to make a declaration with their actions one way or the other in April.

There are only two ways the Giants come out of this looking something other than stupid:

1. They stick with Jones and he becomes a great QB
2. The injuries provide them the opportunity to say "We never stopped believing in Daniel but the injuries forced our hand" after they draft a QB.

Since scenario 1 is an impossibilty because Jones has always sucked, scenario 2 may be the way they go. But they were stupid enough to pay Jones, so...



It is posts like this that get people pissed off at you. Arrogant, overbearing and pompous. You want to beat your chest and run scrorched Earth through BBI and the Giants. You are virtually pulling a Dave Gettleman sneering at the public.

A great many of the board now see Jones is not the answer and should be replaced. That does not mean he sucks. It means he is not good enough to start in the NFL. Players that suck do not beat teams in the playoffs very often. Hell your favorite QB Lamar Jackson only has a 1-3 record with far better teams behind him and LJ is a top 6ish QB in the league.

Stupid was keeping Reese when firing Coughlin. Stupid was hiring Gettleman. And that makes them every team other than the Baltimore Ravens and the Eagles.

I do agree that not getting a QB early in the draft in 2024 would be stupid unless the top three are gone and they wait until the 2nd or 3rd round and believe there is better value at need position(hell that is all of them for the Giants). It is clear Jones is not the answer. I would venture a guess that any of the 5 or 6 highest rated QBs coming out would give the Giants a better chance to win than what they have now.

You make some really good posts, so I don't get the need for condescending crap like above. It invites the equally ludicrous ryankmeade retorts and is little better than Papa and company's tweets.
Well said.
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