Giants corner Adoree Jackson on the possibility of losing Wink Martindale:
“I think losing a guy like Wink would be a huge blow,” the veteran corner said. “That’s why I don’t think he’ll do it. Because if you’re gonna do something like that, I don’t know, that’d be crazy … That’s like, let’s say you were a kid and you see your parents get into it and then they get a divorce. Then you’re sitting there like, ‘Damn, what the f— is going on?’
“And that’s how I personally feel it would be — it’s not gonna happen — but if that situation was to happen, that’s how I would be: like ‘What the hell is going on? Did we do something wrong? Is it us? Is it this? Is it that?’ And it [would be] too much confusion. That’s how I view it.
“[Martindale] coaches well, but he also listens to everybody and listens to the things we may want to change throughout the week or even during the game, which I think is cool. And I feel like you can’t have somebody else coming in. It could be the same, but at the end of the day that’s like somebody saying you’re gonna have a new stepdad or a stepmom. But I want my daddy or momma. I don’t want no stepdad.”
Jackson said he sees no sign of tension and “if that’s the case, they must need to get an Oscar or something. Good a– actors.”
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
Here’s everything I know about the Brian Daboll-Wink Martindale situation.
Some of it stems from the offense’s struggles and the pressure it has put on the defense, the polar opposite approaches of both coaches, the Xavier McKinney situation and more.
There has definitely been tension. Didn’t know it reached the point of Jay Glazer’s report. And they seem to have genuinely kept it from reaching the players, which gives hope the relationship can be mended long term. Especially when the defense is playing at this level.
Martindale didn’t just get the game ball out of nowhere after Sunday’s win 🤔
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
·
8h
A high-ranking #Giants official who spoke to
@nypostsports
after the game called the idea of a Brian Daboll and Wink Martindale rift “complete bulls–t.”
Carl Banks
@CarlBanksGIII
·
11h
Xavier McKinney has been Lights Out for the last few gms.. Sometimes, the *Squeaky Wheel* gets the oil. I'm glad he is more involved in the scheme, and I hope he stays a #NYGiants that INT was special.. the break on the ball after being at the Line of Scrimmage 💰
I'd love to know (and we never will) who the source within the Giants organization is that leaked this to Glazer. As others have pointed out, when Glazer usually breaks something, it's accurate.
While seemingly somewhat overblown, there does seem to be some smoke here. McKinney got the game ball last week, Wink this week. So while it seems like we shouldn't expect a Wink departure today, "complete bullshit" seems like a stretch as well.
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
While seemingly somewhat overblown, there does seem to be some smoke here. McKinney got the game ball last week, Wink this week. So while it seems like we shouldn't expect a Wink departure today, "complete bullshit" seems like a stretch as well.
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
While seemingly somewhat overblown, there does seem to be some smoke here. McKinney got the game ball last week, Wink this week. So while it seems like we shouldn't expect a Wink departure today, "complete bullshit" seems like a stretch as well.
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
Except did you see KT's comments after the game?
I just skimmed the transcript but didn't see anything other than a few questions, nothing that covered this topic.
and were trying to smoke out a rat? didnt Daboll do this last year with someone?
just a thought
This is also a possibility that should be worth considering. Anyone with half a brain could see how some tension could break out when the defense is doing all it can to keep the team in games and the offense is doing little to nothing...
He said there is tension, and why wouldn't there be? The team came in with expectations and has not lived up to them. McKinney's comments were clear as day sign there was some tension out there.
But Jordan also said that he hadn't thought it had boiled to the point Glazer had made it, and I suspect there is a chance his remarks were stated a bit strongly.
I could see Daboll not being happy with the defense against the cowpukes and Wink not being happy with the offense. Hard to imagine anyone was happy with that game.
I could see Daboll saying can we make a stop and Wink saying can you score some points.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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48s
#NYGiants Daboll - devito has done everything asked...just met with him again this morning..."made some progress...done a good job"....
Matt Citak
@MattCitak
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1m
Coach Brian Daboll said they’ll work as a coaching staff over the next two weeks to determine who starts at quarterback moving forward. Tyrod Taylor (ribs) is eligible to come off IR after the bye and is “getting better,” but there’s no definite timetable for his return
Carl Banks
@CarlBanksGIII
·
11h
Xavier McKinney has been Lights Out for the last few gms.. Sometimes, the *Squeaky Wheel* gets the oil. I'm glad he is more involved in the scheme, and I hope he stays a #NYGiants that INT was special.. the break on the ball after being at the Line of Scrimmage 💰
_______
Until the interception,I can’t say I noticed McKinney at all.
Patricia Traina
@Patricia_Traina
·
3m
Daboll was asked about Wink and if he’ll be here the rest of the year. He said he addressed the matter last night.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
2m
#NYGiants Daboll - late bye week gives you more to look at than normal.....staff will work on reviewing on mon and tue and then get on to prep for packers
Pat Leonard
@PLeonardNYDN
Brian Daboll twice avoids answering whether Wink Martindale will definitely remain the Giants’ defensive coordinator the rest of this season. And he makes another weight joke about him and Martindale meeting over donuts. Refers to his comments last night. GM Joe Schoen is due to speak soon
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
·
2m
Daboll still non-committal on #Giants QB after bye. Doesnt sound like it will be as simple as ‘gives us the best chance to win.’
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
1m
Giants players were given the full week off for their bye week, per Brian Daboll. Still, there are players trickling in and Daboll already met with Tommy DeVito this morning.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Schoen - difficult sked in first 11 days....and things snowballed...had some injuries but have to continue to build depth so we can remain competitive
RE: Schoen said Daniel Jones is his starter when he is ready
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
2m
#NYGiants Schoen - going to have to do something at QB because taylor's deal is up and will have to decide devito's future too..need to have enough QBs over the offseason
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
Joe Schoen says the expectation is that Daniel Jones will be the starting quarterback when he is healthy. Adds that it won’t stop team brass from addressing QB room either in free agency or in the draft.
Mentions that Tyrod Taylor is pending UFA and Tommy DeVito is under contract. #NYGiants
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
1m
Schoen said Tommy DeVito has come a long way since he arrived in May as an undrafted rookie. "That's a testament" to his work ethic. He's got some "swagger and presence" about him.
Schoen was basically just asked if he would spend a 1st round pick
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Schoen on jones - surgery went well....has seen some recover in 8 months....trainers will have to pull him back because he works so hare...no lock he will play wk 1 in 2024
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
1m
#NYGiants Schoen on drafting a QB high - "will take the best player available"....still believes in jones because he has seen enough since GM got here to do so
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
1m
Schoen said they'll draft the best player available. He's done a lot of work on the draft already and is ahead of where he was last year. He tweaked his process this year so he could stay informed on all positions.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
1m
#NYGiants Schoen on barkley - going to try hard to get something done with him...big part as a capt of keeping locker room together...has much respect for him
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on if neal is consideration at guard - "dont think so"...has seen too much tape and knows he can play tackle
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - barkley is one of the most productive offensive players in the league...had no plans to trade him this season
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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3m
#NYGiants Schoen - thomas injuries and then the following injuries greatly impacted the OL.....schmitz done a good job and rest of OL requires patience...
The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper
@GiantInsider
·
1m
Schoen kind of shot down Evan Neal moving to guard. Seems they will stick with him at tackle next season.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on gray - organization felt comfortable with gray as a PR based on what they saw in college.....says that move was on him and crowdee has done well in wash....but glad they added olszewski
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
1m
#NYGiants Schoen - hit on okereke in FA... and have "relatively healthy cap situation and can move some things around" in the offseason
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
49s
#NYGiants Schoen - team facing adversity...but has 2nd youngest team in the league.....got to be patient and stay focused on big picture
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
42s
#NYGiants Schoen on wink issues with daboll? - says daboll address the report... "there will always be noise ... it is what it is"..."dont know where some of this stuff comes from"
RE: Schoen not aligned with media reports about getting rid of
The obvious thing he hit on is that Jones is injured right now and his status for next year is up in the air anyway.
He said very adamantly he will address QB this offseason. He is doing a good job of providing enough "grayness" that he is looking for his replacement vs. adding to the QB room.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - there is a human and locker room element to making deals....it was a tough decision to trade williams....says every trade is different and you dont always get the player involved in the process like this one
Dan Salomone
@Dan_Salomone
·
3m
Joe Schoen said they have a lot of talented people in the building. "I believe the staff in there has stuck together" and understands the big picture.
GiantsWFAN
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - must be prepared to maybe bring in a QB who can win a few games early if jones is not ready for wk 1 next year.....so much is still undetermined
RE: RE: RE: Sounds like Jones will be the QB next year.
Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
·
2m
#Giants are not acting like Daniel Jones is definitely going to be ready for Week 1. Might need someone to get through a few weeks.
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
1m
Tommy DeVito signed a standard 3-year rookie contract when he was added to the active roster earlier this season, Joe Schoen confirmed. #NYGiants
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
Biggest takeaway from Schoen: He said the “expectation” is that Daniel Jones will be the starting QB when he’s healthy. *However* Schoen pointed out that they need to add a QB this offseason based on the uncertain timeline of Jones’ ACL recovery. He didn’t rule out that being a QB in the draft.
Even in the first round? Schoen said they’ll take the “best player available.”
and does so with grace and aplomb. But you get no style points in the NFL. He either fixes this roster or he doesn't and by the end of next year I believe we are going to get a read on his long term employment at Mara Tech.
than I would have expected. Of course, he isn't going to damage an asset, but he talked pretty specifically about finding a bridge to DJ being healthy. That isn't to say, if a special QB falls into their lap in the draft they won't take them. But didn't see any urgency in his manner.
The thing about not evaluating a QB solely from game tape was interesting coupled with his comments about the failure rate of high first-round QBs. The draft, as always, should be pretty interesting.
Of course they are looking at QBs. What they need to do is take BPA throughout the draft including the first few rounds, in case their QB choices are gone or they can't trade up, if they wanted to.
They aren't just blindly taking a quarterback no matter what. That would be stupid. And that is the same reason people got pissed off at the Jones pick.
RE: RE: I don't want to read too much into body language
team that is happy with its QB doesn't draft a QB in the first round because of "BPA."
They do so either because they want to replace the existing starter or that guy is nearing the end.
Now Schoen may be perfectly happy with Jones and wants to be deliberately vague. But I doubt it.
You are failing to recognize that taking a QB because you want to replace one doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. If you take the 3rd or 4th "best" QB in the draft and pass on the 2nd WR or best edge player, that would be a bad decision.
team that is happy with its QB doesn't draft a QB in the first round because of "BPA."
They do so either because they want to replace the existing starter or that guy is nearing the end.
Now Schoen may be perfectly happy with Jones and wants to be deliberately vague. But I doubt it.
You are failing to recognize that taking a QB because you want to replace one doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. If you take the 3rd or 4th "best" QB in the draft and pass on the 2nd WR or best edge player, that would be a bad decision.
This is ridiculous. How do you know the QB that Schoen may draft at say #7 who happens to be the third QB taken is not the best of the bunch? Or that he is infinitely better than the first edge player taken? Are you saying everybody's evaluation is same and how they are drafted is how they will play in the NFL?
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
You keep beating this drum and I don't know why.
That quote from you, the exact same thing a lot of people were saying in 2019. And they picked Jones, who now everyone outside of a few people (such as myself) want him off the team.
To box yourself into a position is completely stupid. If they don't like the QB choices when they pick, they will not take those players.
Taking a player you don't want would be absolutely idiotic.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
"We weren't sure about Daniel's health and we felt the value of [QBX] was too good to pass up. He's smart, tough, dependable. We'll have a healthy competition at QB this off season between QBX and Daniel. Tommy has done a good job too and deserves the chance to compete" - Joe Schoen, April 25, 2024
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
You keep beating this drum and I don't know why.
That quote from you, the exact same thing a lot of people were saying in 2019. And they picked Jones, who now everyone outside of a few people (such as myself) want him off the team.
To box yourself into a position is completely stupid. If they don't like the QB choices when they pick, they will not take those players.
Taking a player you don't want would be absolutely idiotic.
You're confusing two different decisions and trying to make them as if they are one decision.
The decision to draft a QB in 2019 was the correct one.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
Yes. But the team has painted themselves into a corner.
If Schoen and Daboll go 5-12 next year with Daniel Jones, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
If Daniel Jones is on IR on November with another neck injury, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
There are a bunch of QBs in this draft. They have no option but to take one.
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
Let's say the Giants get the 6th or 7th pick. Let's say Chicago/New England/Arizona fight to the death for Williams and Maye, and whether there are trades involved or not, those two guys are gone within the first 3 picks.
Then let's say Joe Schoen DOESN'T draft a quarterback at where the Giants pick. Let's say they draft Malik Nabers, or even trade down.
What I'm saying is - if Joe Schoen doesn't take a QB in that slot, it would mean he does not see the value in doing it, because he either A) doesn't believe in any of those QBs available at that time or B) he wants to take the prospect that he believes is a much better prospect at that draft position.
If Joe Schoen does not take a QB with their first 3 picks in the draft, and instead goes edge, WR, OL.....everyone will say Schoen sucks.
What I'm saying is that Schoen is not going to force pick a QB he doesn't like. That would be really fucking stupid, and the Giants can continue to build the roster and even get a QB in 2025 if Jones doesn't progress beyond what we saw in 2022.
That is it. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
ThomasG, I don't think you are getting what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is - everyone is pissed because the Giants reached for Daniel Jones.
Now - people are saying we have to take a QB no matter what.
Stick to a strategy.
No, and everyone doesn't say the same thing.
Reaching for Daniel Jones is one thing. Sticking with him is another. And providing him a second is yet another.
What the majority of posters are aligned on is that we need to upgrade at QB and this draft likely offers that chance based on volume of QBs and draft position.
Let's say the Giants get the 6th or 7th pick. Let's say Chicago/New England/Arizona fight to the death for Williams and Maye, and whether there are trades involved or not, those two guys are gone within the first 3 picks.
Then let's say Joe Schoen DOESN'T draft a quarterback at where the Giants pick. Let's say they draft Malik Nabers, or even trade down.
What I'm saying is - if Joe Schoen doesn't take a QB in that slot, it would mean he does not see the value in doing it, because he either A) doesn't believe in any of those QBs available at that time or B) he wants to take the prospect that he believes is a much better prospect at that draft position.
If Joe Schoen does not take a QB with their first 3 picks in the draft, and instead goes edge, WR, OL.....everyone will say Schoen sucks.
What I'm saying is that Schoen is not going to force pick a QB he doesn't like. That would be really fucking stupid, and the Giants can continue to build the roster and even get a QB in 2025 if Jones doesn't progress beyond what we saw in 2022.
That is it. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
He is going to maneuver to get one of the top four QBs on his draft board. If he doesn't, I doubt he survives to 2025.
And no, Schoen and Daboll are not going to be fired after the 2024 season if the Giants go 5-12 with Daniel Jones. We can't keep doing this dance every 2-3 seasons.
Kyle Shanahan had 4 shitty seasons early on with SF. Stability matters if you think you have the right GM and coach. The Giants do.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
The other comment that jumped out was Schoen bluntly saying that Evan Neal “needs to play better.” Schoen added that he doesn’t think Neal needs to move to guard, believes he can play tackle but is missing valuable reps right now with his ankle injury.
RE: I thought Joe Schoen said something interesting about Tommy DeVito
something like he has a bit of a swagger to him, and his teammates feed off of that. In that context, think about Daniel Jones for a moment.
Yes. Schoen also through in something about OL issues also have to a lot to do with not having the "QB pull the trigger quickly enough" or something like that. Which I think he is sending a message about some/all of our QBs.
And no, Schoen and Daboll are not going to be fired after the 2024 season if the Giants go 5-12 with Daniel Jones. We can't keep doing this dance every 2-3 seasons.
Kyle Shanahan had 4 shitty seasons early on with SF. Stability matters if you think you have the right GM and coach. The Giants do.
If Schoen and Daboll roll with Daniel Jones in 2024, then they are not the right solution. They should be fired.
If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
It's not that difficult.
Again, what do you think Schoen is going to say?
They'll take a QB if they think he's a franchise changing QB and if the opportunity presents itself. Which is what they should do.
Not being happy with Jones' play this season is not some mystery novel. Of course they aren't happy with what happened and then the injury.
It doesn't even have to be a franchise changing QB. It has to be a competent QB who can give them a reliable floor. They don't even have a floor right now; Jones was supposed to have settled in the 12-15 range of QBs and he backslid toward the bottom and is injured. DeVito is a bottom tier starter at best and Tyrod will not be under contract.
They will not be able to afford a free agent backup, so that leaves the draft, and I will be willing to guarantee they aren't going to passively sit back and only pick a QB they feel 1000 percent confident is going to be a franchise changer and is also BPA when they pick. It doesn't work that way. If they like McCarthy or Daniels or Penix or Nix they will pick them over someone like Keon Coleman. Again, they do not have a QB1 on the roster right now, you cannot be a functional franchise without one.
reaching cult level status with the Daniel Jones groupies.
I'm actually not a Daniel Jones "groupie." I've said I'd be fine if they move on from him, I couldn't care less.
What I don't want them to do is just pick a QB because hey, why not. That is completely fucking stupid, and is the exact same reason you guys said we should not have taken Jones.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
Eric, OK, fine. But again - you have to assume that everything just turns out perfectly for the Giants during the draft in that case.
Williams and Maye - gone within the first 3. That is about as much of a lock as there is in this year's draft. Marvin Harrison Jr, probably the 3rd.
New England is not trading out of their spot. Arizona might. Chicago might. If Schoen wants to trade, he can likely do it.
Just because he doesn't trade up doesn't mean he's making a mistake.
Williams and Maye may not even be the best quarterbacks in the draft.
With the recent "success" the Giants are probably out of the mix for whichever QBs settle in as the top guys... but probably are very much in the mix for trading back into the first round to grab someone who slips a bit. That's what I expect at this point.
Eric, I think most of us hope and want the Giants to replace Jones with a blue chip prospect, but I think you're underestimating how difficult that might be for Schoen.
can blather all he wants about BPA, but I'd be stunned if the Giants didn't take a QB in the first or second round.
Jones has had a concussion, two serious neck injuries, and now a torn ACL. That makes him unreliable, even if the Giants decide that their offensive struggles are more because of the porous OL than his play.
The ACL by itself isn't that concerning. Many players come back from that injury, and Jones is mostly a straight-line runner. He isn't Lamar Jackson. But the concussion and neck injuries are very concerning, especially since running is one of his better talents. The problem is that his running makes it more likely he'll be hit and suffer another concussion or neck injury.
Next season is likely the last that Jones will be on the Giants.
I have also pointed to that as a possible tactic. I posted a few weeks ago that a possiblel scenario would be to land Harrison in the 1st round and trade back into the bottom of the 1st round for the QB. Looks like Harrison is off the board now however.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
Yes. But the team has painted themselves into a corner.
If Schoen and Daboll go 5-12 next year with Daniel Jones, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
If Daniel Jones is on IR on November with another neck injury, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
There are a bunch of QBs in this draft. They have no option but to take one.
Welcome to QB hell.
Needless to say, that's awfully risky, Eric. Taking a QB in Round 1 or 2 that you don't believe can be/will be a franchise QB is not only investing foolishly and potentially setting your team back further, but it's also poor asset management. Those are premium picks that can be used to upgrade other positions.
If they draft a QB early that they don't love in 2024 and he performs poorly, the team is going to have fans and even the FO clamoring for a new QB, perhaps someone they actually love and see as an upgrade.
BPA is always the way to go, but I do agree with you that QB is valued at a premium.
Eric, I think most of us hope and want the Giants to replace Jones with a blue chip prospect, but I think you're underestimating how difficult that might be for Schoen.
It's incredibly difficult.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
Because they passed on quarterbacks because they couldn’t admit that they needed one. Then the worst GM in team history panicked and had a putrid evaluation process because the guy he set his sights on went back to school.
Eric, I think most of us hope and want the Giants to replace Jones with a blue chip prospect, but I think you're underestimating how difficult that might be for Schoen.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
I agree, which is why I don't know if hitching their wagon to a rookie QB they don't absolutely love is the way they should go. You're spending a premium pick on a QB you may just like instead of spending it on other positions that can help you now.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
In Round 1 or in general?
BPA becomes a more serious consideration the further you go in the draft. All teams draft for need. KC isn't going to take a QB in the first round even if they have a QB rated at the top of their draft board.
To the people that think they're trying to weed out a rat: They'd do it with much less damaging information than this. Imagine creating a shitstorm in the media and dragging Wink's name through the mud to weed out a rat. It's bush league and disrespectful to Wink.
This isn't a game, it's people's lives and reputations.
Eric, I think most of us hope and want the Giants to replace Jones with a blue chip prospect, but I think you're underestimating how difficult that might be for Schoen.
It's incredibly difficult.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
The more immediate real world factor is whether Schoen's boss is aligned with dumping Jones after 6+ games into the biggest contract in team history.
Forget the fans, Schoen has to convince Mara that he fucked up with Jones, but that Mara should still trust him to spend multiple high value picks on a quarterback.
Mara could easily say:
- No, I want to keep Jones or
- Why should I trust you to be picking quarterbacks?
Williams, Maye, Daniels, and Harrison are gone by the time the Giants pick, then BPA is more likely, or perhaps a trade down.
I am a big believer in taking the BPA, but rightly or wrongly, QB seems to be an exception for most teams. Most teams won't trade down and risk losing a QB they love. If Schoen loves one of the "second tier" QBs, he'll take him in the top 10, regardless of what anyone says. He'll also never admit that he "jumped" his own board to do so. That's just what happens in the NFL with QBs.
Assume the Giants are picking ninth, and the team at fifteen wants to trade up, and is offering a really good deal to do so. For any other position, the Giants would likely take the deal. But not if they are targeting a QB. Not unless the deal is phenomenal.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
In Round 1 or in general?
BPA becomes a more serious consideration the further you go in the draft. All teams draft for need. KC isn't going to take a QB in the first round even if they have a QB rated at the top of their draft board.
Yes, which is why it's not STRICTLY BPA, but rather BPA as it pertains to positional value and other factors.
Williams, Maye, Daniels, and Harrison are gone by the time the Giants pick, then BPA is more likely, or perhaps a trade down.
I am a big believer in taking the BPA, but rightly or wrongly, QB seems to be an exception for most teams. Most teams won't trade down and risk losing a QB they love. If Schoen loves one of the "second tier" QBs, he'll take him in the top 10, regardless of what anyone says. He'll also never admit that he "jumped" his own board to do so. That's just what happens in the NFL with QBs.
Assume the Giants are picking ninth, and the team at fifteen wants to trade up, and is offering a really good deal to do so. For any other position, the Giants would likely take the deal. But not if they are targeting a QB. Not unless the deal is phenomenal.
There are other QBs in this draft. And there are QBs in this draft who are clearly better than Daniel Jones.
The NYG beat reporters for the most part offer nothing to the table. I like Duggan, but talk about softball questions from the others.
"What have you learned from the job?" These best reporters are so bad. This big bad NY media everyone talks about. Comical.
Sean, they're typical shit stirring school girls. It doesn't surprise me none of these ask direct questions. But that won't stop them from the speculative doomsday content they will still put out.
reaching cult level status with the Daniel Jones groupies.
That was reached a long, long time ago.
After five years, we know Jones:
-- Has thrown 20+ TDs in a year once
-- Jones has never broken 7 YPA in his career
-- Jones has played 16 games one time
-- Jones has broken 60 QBR one time
-- Jones was the QB for a winning season one time
-- Jones is dismal against winning teams
-- Jones is putrid in prime-time games
-- Jones is going into his 6th season in the NFL
-- Jones has been a turnover machine
It is insanely amazing the attachment fans have for this type of player who plays QB in the NFL.
I like the kid but there are huge holes in his game.
It would be malpractice if Schoen doesn't draft a QB in the first or second round.
He is getting big bucks to do his GM thing. So do draft the guy you think could be the guy to make the team a viable contender for the Super Bowl. He has no other choice. Just do it because not trying to right the ship is unacceptable.
Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
I would have liked a question about Jones' contract
Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
If the Giants had Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw in their prime, they would not have drafted Barkley.
Barkley was the highest rated player for the Giants at a position of NEED.
Regardless it was a horrible choice. There were options to move down some but Gettleman was basically Kevin Costner in Draft Day- it was Barkley no matter what...
He played in six games this year. He threw two TDs in the second half of one game. None in the other five. He has thrown 11, 10, 15, and 2 the past four seasons. Meanwhile, an undrafted schlub already has seven with the same team.
Jr. or the like. Penix Jr. had a lengthy injury history at Indiana (he ended four seasons with injuries, including two ACL tears) and Bo Nix has all day to throw and RARELY faces pressure.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
Often they don’t, it requires a lot of luck for the best player on your board to also be a need
"It would be malpractice if Gettleman doesn't go QB at 6 or 17" is what we said in 2019.
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
Jr. or the like. Penix Jr. had a lengthy injury history at Indiana (he ended four seasons with injuries, including two ACL tears) and Bo Nix has all day to throw and RARELY faces pressure.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
It doesn't matter what you and I think. It matters what Schoen and Daboll think, and how those players then perform.
Do you know how wrong BBI posters have been on quarterbacks the past 10 years??? It's comical. For fuck sake, we had guys still defending Josh Rosen on his third team.
Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
Often they don’t, it requires a lot of luck for the best player on your board to also be a need
I said nothing of the frequency of the alignment. Only that they can be aligned.
Reading comprehension seems to be a dearth this morning.
"It would be malpractice if Gettleman doesn't go QB at 6 or 17" is what we said in 2019.
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
What is so hard to understand about this.
Who said that in 2019? Herbert was the prize and we all knew he was back in school.
will be a good backup QB for another team in 2025. I like Jones more than most here, but his play certainly didn't warrant his contract, and his injuries are now preclusive. And as I said, his running increases the chance he'll suffer another concussion or neck injury. A new QB in the first or second round is a must.
RE: I would have liked a question about Jones' contract
I also didn't love that with Jones, "it's a team game." But with Neal, "he needs to play better."
That's great fodder for the fans - and there are plenty of them who litter this board - who think the QB position is no more important that RB, WR, T, G, C, TE.
Build the team first, worry about a QB later... ;)
I largely agree with everything Eric has said on this thread.
However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
will be a good backup QB for another team in 2025. I like Jones more than most here, but his play certainly didn't warrant his contract, and his injuries are now preclusive. And as I said, his running increases the chance he'll suffer another concussion or neck injury. A new QB in the first or second round is a must.
If the Giants draft a QB high, Jones may even start the first month or two. He will then play himself out of a job or get hurt and the rookie will start.
Coughlin benched Warner when the Giants were 5-4 and went with Eli, who didn't win a game until the finale.
Schoen probably wouldn't say anything, but a question as to whether the contract will prevent NYG from taking a QB high in the first round.
I get Schoen said he'd go BPA, but the question should have been framed around the $47M cap hit in 2024 for Jones.
I also didn't love that with Jones, "it's a team game." But with Neal, "he needs to play better."
Given Jones' contract I'm pretty skeptical that the Giants are going to go into free agency looking for Taylor II. But they do need to add another QB. So that leaves basically 4 paths:
- Trade for a "distressed asset" QB--guy on a rookie contract who could benefit from a change of scenery...
- Go way into the bottom of the FA barrel.
- Trade up into the top 3.
- Draft a guy late on Day 1 or Day 2.
The distressed asset types that fit are guys like Mac Jones, Kenny Pickett, Kyle Trask, Malik Willis, and Desmond Ridder. None of whom seem appealing.
Then you have some of the higher dollar guys on rookie contracts that may shake free--Justin Fields and Bryce Young come to mind.
The bottom of the FA barrel--I'm skeptical you're going to get more than DeVito-esque play.
The trade-up path... I don't see it right now, particularly given today's Schoen comments. So that leaves the "Tier 2" QBs in the draft, basically whichever QBs don't ascend in the postseason process, or whichever ones that are not on the radar at all currently that do ascend.
It's a genuinely fascinating offseason. Probably the most since the OBJ trade.
there is no decision they need to make on jones yet
they obviously cant move on for at least another 12 months or so and they need to add another QB for depth purposes at a bare minimum -- which they just stated as a public expectation.
QBs are very simple when it comes to the draft. if you have a grade on one worthy of picking, you pick them. that is almost whenever/wherever (unless you have burrow/herbert/mahomes signed long term).
devito has done them a big kindness in giving them what will hopefully be a cheap/experienced backup. at minimum he has shown he can be comparable to tyrod.
in the draft they will take the best QB they can when they are on the clock. if there is someone they like they may move up.
whatever happens from that moment on will get sorted out on the field.
I said nothing of the frequency of the alignment. Only that they can be aligned.
Reading comprehension seems to be a dearth this morning.
I never said you said anything about frequency. Just having a conversation that’s it’s rare that they actually do. Relax.
"Often they don’t..."
That is a statement of frequency. My point was that BPA and need can align. I didn't say how often it happens. How often it happens is irrelevant to the point that the can align.
The hatred of Daniel Jones has gotten to the point where you guys are actually arguing in favor of the thing that got Jones drafted by the Giants in the first place.
I'm sure Schoen will take a QB if he likes him and thinks he will absolutely be better than Jones.
But if he doesn't and takes WR, edge, or trades down, the Giants are not doomed and Schoen will not be fired.
Those two things can be accurate.
RE: I largely agree with everything Eric has said on this thread.
However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
but I think it highly likely Giants draft a QB high and am thinking likely in round 2. Not sure they would in round 1 at least where they currently sit at a draft position and I am not sure they would be willing to pay the price to move up. Based on the last two drafts I do have confidence in Schoen. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out. Schoen said all the right things today in my mind from what I have seen posted here.
It's really about 2025 just as much. Someone used the term "pivot" and that is the right word.
I'm becoming more convinced either Daniels (slight longshot now), Nix, Ewers, or McCarthy are going to be a Giant in the top 50-60 picks of the draft.
I don't see a trade up in first. But those two picks in the 2nd now are premium. Seahawks pick is looking like a solid bet for a top 50 pick now.
This is how I see it. I don't see Schoen pulling off a Panthers trade. It's not impossible assuming he really likes someone, but with $47M in cap charges committed to Jones in 2024, I don't see Schoen doing that.
Schoen strikes me as someone who is very aware of the financial advantages around utilizing a rookie QB's salary window. The roster still has holes, so mortgaging a ton to move up for Williams/Maye probably doesn't make sense given the $47M cap hit to Jones next year and the $22M dead cap charge in 2025 assuming he's released. Schoen sees what's happening in Carolina.
Credit to Terps because he's been on this. Christian too. I see this:
-Jones the QB when/if healthy
-Rookie QB drafted within the top 50 (possibly first round)
-DeVito
I think that's the QB room. The hope would be the QB drafted ends up being the starter and this regime found their guy. It'll be a competition with everyone.
I just don't see an expensive trade up. The roster isn't where it needs to be for that and it doesn't make sense financially. 2025 would be a different story since they'd be much more financially lean at QB.
The hatred of Daniel Jones has gotten to the point where you guys are actually arguing in favor of the thing that got Jones drafted by the Giants in the first place.
I'm sure Schoen will take a QB if he likes him and thinks he will absolutely be better than Jones.
But if he doesn't and takes WR, edge, or trades down, the Giants are not doomed and Schoen will not be fired.
Those two things can be accurate.
Your groupie status is showing again.
I don't hate Daniel Jones. He seems like a really sweet guy.
But he's not a good QB. Even fans who don't follow the game closely see it.
The hatred of Daniel Jones has gotten to the point where you guys are actually arguing in favor of the thing that got Jones drafted by the Giants in the first place.
Again, the decision to draft a QB in 2019 was sound. The error was in the evaluation of the player selected.
For example, say Giants are at 6th pick and New England says sure we will give you the 2nd pick.
How about both 2nds, 2025 1st, and a 2025 2nd?
Schoen might say yes. He also might say, eh, too rich, we will stay at 6 and be comfortable knowing we still have our assets in place. He might say, well, we aren't ready to contend yet, I'd rather keep all these picks, and adjust on QB next year.
It has happened before, plenty of times. And there are also teams who have done this and it completely backfired. Doesn't mean you don't do it, but it's not a guarantee.
Now if Caleb Williams is available at 2, I imagine Schoen says yes thanks, pleasure doing business.
RE: RE: I largely agree with everything Eric has said on this thread.
However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
I don't disagree. They've put themselves in quite a difficult situation by royally fucking up the Jones contract. Schoen can say all the right things but he's made his life incredibly difficult: he either needs to draft a QB that he maybe doesn't love to buy himself more time or not take a QB knowing next season is going to be rough and he may not survive. That's why the trade down and out may be best option. Then even if they are terrible next year, he can argue he anticipated it and set the franchise up to restart without Jones.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
this is the mulligan id bet a lot of money they wish they had, and it was predictable from the moment they ended up not extending barkley and mike g reported barkley's asks as very reasonable (and less than what jonathan taylor ended up with).
now they are going to end up extending him for probably what taylor got or more, a year older.
Jones is not the answer but drafting a QB for the sake of drafting one is how you end up with a Jones. And then spend years making excuses for his play.
In fact how did that work out for the Jets?
Also keeping Neal at tackle is like keeping Jones as your starting qb. Admit the mistake and move on.
the Giants will either trade back into round 1 or they'll use on of their round 2 picks on a guy in the Nix, Penix, McCarthy tier.
Unless of course they can land one of the top 3 guys in round 1.
In hindsight, I thought we were a great destination for Hendon Hooker in last year's draft. Would've been nice.
The Giants trading for Hooker wouldn't shock me, honestly. I know they did their homework on him and the Lions might want a more immediate Super Bowl contributor.
What I'm saying is that Schoen and Daboll coached Jones and team to a playoff win in 2022.
Their mindset might be hey, we have a much better roster now, some things didn't go our way in 2023, we might not want to mortgage the future for Drake Maye or Caleb Williams. We also might not want to take a guy at 6 that is more of a project.
I don't know. All I'm saying is, to put a blanket statement that Giants need to draft a QB in round 1 or 2 or they will be fired is a pointless statement.
A) they won't be fired
B) they went to the playoffs in 2022
C) they don't want to force a QB
D) they might not want to mortgage everything, they have just gotten things in a decent direction with draft picks lately
All he needed to say was that Wink isn't going anywhere.
He chose not to.
I hear you, but it's Daboll. He never says anything like that and virtually never confirms or denies anything he doesn't have to. While there could be something there, Daboll has always been 100% consistent in addressing a question once - often saying next to nothing like "we spoke, that conversation will remain private" and repeat it until reporters stop digging.
I think Schoen is pretty damn transparent and accountable and his comments put serious doubt into this whole story. It could be Daboll was unhappy with Wink's handling of the X situation (I didn't like how he handled it) and it's a snowballing game of telephone with inevitable media exaggeration and/or distortion from there. The friction narrative always comes up with losing teams; that creates smoke but doesn't mean fire.
With a potential future star QB. If they run it back with jones, DeVito and a scrap heap QB they’re not going to be a good team, and if they’re as bad as this year Schoen won’t have a job.
You don’t get to screw up the Jones contract, not have the solution to that mistake on the roster and have back to back unwatchable seasons. I think Schoen is the right man for the job, but unfortunately that’s just not how the business works.
Worst thing you can do at this point in time is take a QB just because.
Daniel Jones was a 1st round prospect by almost any measure and the first year Daboll had him, he played well and they won a playoff game. Things didn't go their way this year, it happened, it was shitty. I'm sure everyone is pissed about it.
If they are ready to give up on Jones they'll take a QB. If they aren't quite there yet and the QBs available do not match the grade and there are stud edge or WRs sitting there, they should select that player.
RE: RE: I largely agree with everything Eric has said on this thread.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
wrong way to look at it.
they survive by playing whoever is the best player they can get at qb, and not getting mauled by those teams.
they will add someone they like this year - and logic dictates that will be a draft pick and not a free agent since they already put so much cap into the position.
events have aligned to spend a high pick on a QB if there's one available to them that they like, and it happens to be a good QB draft, so it will probably be a first round pick whether it's their first or a trade up from their 2nd back into the first. but i think it would be a mistake to totally write off jones based on this year's small sample in impossible circumstances. whether or not he's healthy is a big question but if he is it's possible he's still the best option to not get mauled by those teams.
RE: RE: I largely agree with everything Eric has said on this thread.
However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
Yeah, I really hope they're looking comprehensively at this and are not fixated on one QB they 'love.' They are not in a place to be very picky.
"It would be malpractice if Gettleman doesn't go QB at 6 or 17" is what we said in 2019.
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
What is so hard to understand about this.
A rookie QB does not need to be "significantly" better than Jones because his contract will allow for more flexibility with the rest of the roster. If a college QB right now is simply as good as Jones, he will cost less and also likely develop to be better than Jones, so it will likely be worth the pick. You have to account for cost (as well as opportunity cost, b/c if we take a QB, that means we're not drafting someone else. Similarly, if we stick with Jones for 3 more years, that's a ton of money that does not go to other players.)
It showed our receivers create the most separation in the NFL
DeVito & Taylor both showed if they have a quick trigger they can hit those open guys
Yes the OL eliminates a lot of waiting for guys to ‘appear’ more open & eliminates the luxury of having some delay in the qb processing - and there are times where it’s a full blown jail break (I realize this)
That being said… Taylor & DeVito are nothing special. They get the ball out quicker than Jones & throw guys open on occasion.
I mean Hyatt is open nearby every go route just lead the guy.
They need a qb who has a quick trigger like Devito or Taylor and processes and makes that decision quickly & airs it out. They’re out there. It doesn’t have to be Williams or Maye. It could be Nix or Daniels or… who knows.
*Add to this the fact that they have played as well as or better than Jones and both make between 35-40mm less than Jones will this year
Jones has all the physical talent to be a good QB in the NFL
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
front and center , as always . But what I would have asked Schoen is this: Both the Cowboys and Eagles have gotten significantly better than the Giants while on your watch . Obviously both teams made astute off-season moves including adroit draft decisions . It feels like they are in another universe from the Giants . Do you think that’s a fair appraisal about your performance so far ?
Who cares about questions concerning Neal and Jones . He’s not going to be candid about either . But what’s important to me is they fell way behind . If he wants to hide behind the “This is a young team that has many promising players “ line, let him do so .
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
wrong way to look at it.
they survive by playing whoever is the best player they can get at qb, and not getting mauled by those teams.
they will add someone they like this year - and logic dictates that will be a draft pick and not a free agent since they already put so much cap into the position.
events have aligned to spend a high pick on a QB if there's one available to them that they like, and it happens to be a good QB draft, so it will probably be a first round pick whether it's their first or a trade up from their 2nd back into the first. but i think it would be a mistake to totally write off jones based on this year's small sample in impossible circumstances. whether or not he's healthy is a big question but if he is it's possible he's still the best option to not get mauled by those teams.
This is a well-reasoned opinion. (It therefore may not belong here.)
Schoen and Daboll don't strike me as the types of guys who make decisions scared. I believe they would risk their jobs if they thought it gave the Giants a good chance to be better. (I could be wrong.)
Also, aren't their contracts guaranteed? I realize that getting fired affects future employment prospects, but both guys have guaranteed multiple millions coming their way regardless, so I suspect they're less worried about losing their jobs than we may think.
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
I thought they'd be good in 2022 and also thought Jones would have a solid year. To me, any prediction of Jones bouncing back in 2024 has the vibe of the "2018 Eli revenge tour" stuff we heard back then. Jones looked out to lunch this season and his ceiling is already pretty limited. Defenders made a beeline to him on the RPO plays (like they are doing across the league) and so it's hard to imagine his running picking up the slack.
In 2024 - like in 2023 - the Giants are going to have a math problem with their schedule. Four very difficult games against the AFC Central, plus 4 games again against the Eagles and Cowboys. This leaves almost no margin for error if you aren't getting at least average QB play.
The Giants also should be concerned about the Commanders. If Josh Harris runs the team like he does the Sixers, that will be a 10 or 11 win team on their schedule twice a year and the equation gets even more difficult.
the Giants will either trade back into round 1 or they'll use on of their round 2 picks on a guy in the Nix, Penix, McCarthy tier.
Unless of course they can land one of the top 3 guys in round 1.
In hindsight, I thought we were a great destination for Hendon Hooker in last year's draft. Would've been nice.
The Giants trading for Hooker wouldn't shock me, honestly. I know they did their homework on him and the Lions might want a more immediate Super Bowl contributor.
I think this is an interesting suggestion. I also would look at Justin Fields, who is due his 5th year rookie extension decision next spring. Fields has some of the physical characteristics that make him an interesting Daboll QB prospect. He might be available for pretty limited draft capital (3rd rounder?).
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
Man, why are you so obsessed with everything I say?
The Giants weren’t a good team last year, all the secondary metrics agree. They snuck by with a lot of smoke and mirrors, turnover luck and winning a statisticallly improbable amount of 1 score games. The Giants team we saw early in the season was the same team we saw in the Seahawks, Lions, and Eagles games last year. One without a QB and one that can’t score points.
It turns out the 2022 season was one of the most detrimental seasons in recent memory. If those one score games go the other way, the Giants aren’t paying Jones and are likely heading into year two of developing their new QB, with more cap space and a top pick to add to a developing roster. Instead they’re saddled with a cap hit of over $20 million until 2025 for a QB who will likely be a backup.
Schoen and Daboll don't strike me as the types of guys who make decisions scared. I believe they would risk their jobs if they thought it gave the Giants a good chance to be better. (I could be wrong.)
Also, aren't their contracts guaranteed? I realize that getting fired affects future employment prospects, but both guys have guaranteed multiple millions coming their way regardless, so I suspect they're less worried about losing their jobs than we may think.
And yet if Tyrod Taylor is healthy, he likely returns to the starting job. Why? Not because it's in the long-term interest of the team, but because Daboll is thinking about his job security.
Giants fans will not tolerate another wasted season with Daniel Jones.
They will demand Schoen and Daboll get fired. The stadium will be empty. And Mara will have to react again.
You won't accept this because you think Daniel Jones is still getting a raw deal.
Giants fans want to win, like all others.
The Giants coaches and FO want to win, like all others, because their jobs depend on it.
If the giants lose big again in this regimes year 3 it won't matter whether the QB is Daniel Jones, Bryce Young, or whoever this year's Bryce Young is. People will get fired.
There is no doubt they are going to add another QB - and i'd also say there's no doubt they will play whoever they think gives them the best chance to win because their jobs will be riding on that. They themselves wont know who that is until next Sept/Oct so trying to declare who that is (or isnt) right now is beyond pointless.
The Giants can draft whomever they want and if it is a QB and they do not fix the damn OL that person will get killed too. It's not as simple as Jones or Taylor or DeVito hold the ball too long--it's that they are shell-shocked from getting hit repeatedly in games. People can look at this OL and see it cannot pass protect and on most attempts the run blocking is not much better. Fix the OL please.
Giants fans will not tolerate another wasted season with Daniel Jones.
They will demand Schoen and Daboll get fired. The stadium will be empty. And Mara will have to react again.
You won't accept this because you think Daniel Jones is still getting a raw deal.
Again, failing to understand my point, as always. I don't think Daniel Jones is getting a raw deal. I think he has shown he can play and had a shitty year and then tore his knee. If you are committed to Schoen and Daboll's rebuild, you'd also understand that the Giants are getting their shit kicked in in the trenches, and are clearly not ready to compete with Dallas and Philly. You'd also understand that they still have severe needs on both OL, DL, and at WR. They have 1 good pass rusher who happens to be one of the best in the league at that. They have 1 good interior DL who is the best in the league.
The Giants turning this around is not just about QB. If they like one better than Jones this year at their slot, they'll take one.
If they don't, they are committed to taking pro bowl talented players. Schoen clearly has an eye for talent as his draft picks have been pretty good.
Whether Jones is the QB or not in 2024 - I couldn't give a shit about it. I want them to have the best QB they can have for 2024 but also realize that if it doesn't matchup with value or they have to mortgage the future to do it, and they decide not to, I'll accept it.
There's a difference between being a DJ groupie and being a rational fan that wants Schoen and Daboll to do what they actually want to do. And if they choose to forgo QB, I accept that it what they want to do and I'm good with it.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
The Giants can draft whomever they want and if it is a QB and they do not fix the damn OL that person will get killed too. It's not as simple as Jones or Taylor or DeVito hold the ball too long--it's that they are shell-shocked from getting hit repeatedly in games. People can look at this OL and see it cannot pass protect and on most attempts the run blocking is not much better. Fix the OL please.
Valid, but you still need the QB. Dave Brown had a really solid OL in front of him.
That said, the reporters dropped the ball on the OL. There should have been more questions about the OL than just Neal.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
What I'd like to see happen is Schoen trade up on the first round and draft Daniels. Even if that comes at a high cost.
What I think will happen is Schoen will draft a quarterback on the second round, because that is a more tenable course of action for ownership.
i would bet on round 1 for the 5th year option. if there is someone they like with a 2nd round pick, it's in their interest to move up to pick #32 to take them so they get the extra year.
whether that's with their top 10 pick or a trade up from the 2nd round i think depends on who is available with the top 10 pick (duh). assuming they aren't in the top 2 picks, i could see them not wanting to pass on a harrison or malik nabers and then trying to move up for whoever the qb4/5 is since this draft has some interesting options. i wouldnt be surprised with daniels or penix going high or being this year's versions of kenny pickett. there is going to be some rightful skepticism of 5th year breakouts.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
Even if the Giants did have some optimism for Jones, they can't put their eggs in the Jones basket. The injuries alone make that a massive gamble, let alone the obvious lack of production.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
If they don't take a QB and don't trade for assets in next year's draft, Schoen/Daboll are betting their careers on Daniel Jones. They may very well do that, but it's an enormous risk. If he has another awful year and any of the QB's in this draft that are picked after us have promising rookie seasons, they'll be fired the day after the season is over.
RE: How many more years until Jones is a top 10 QB?
They could use a lot more impact players and then they can address the QB spot later in the draft and again in a following year or even later if needed.
I would have liked someone to ask Schoen about being outscored 89-17 in the two Dallas games and a few other tough questions.
You simply won't accept Daniel Jones isn't good. You've admitted it yourself. So of course you're going to argue for "BPA."
But you've always been that way with all things Giants related, be it whomever was the GM, HC, certain player, etc. I remember you telling us how great Gettleman was.
1. Giants don't draft a QB in round 1 - Schoen doesn't know what he's doing, Mara is meddling, Daboll will be fired
2. Giants draft a QB in round 2 - clearly this is Mara meddling, they waited because now Jones doesn't have as much competition
3. Giants don't draft a QB at all - wow the entire front office needs to go
So essentially - anything other than a QB high in round 1 is a disaster - which flies in the face of team building and evidence based drafts where at times you can argue it is the opposite of what you should do if you don't have conviction on a guy
Pretend for a moment that Jones is a good quarterback. If he were, it would make little sense to draft his replacement in April 2024. Signing a veteran (Tannehill, Mariota, Darnold, Minshew, etc.) to hold down the fort until Jones is ready to go - that would make sense. Maybe you pair that with a mid-round QB selection, but you've already got a developing young guy in the building.
Controlling for whether or not Jones is a good player, the timeline doesn't make sense for drafting a first round QB.
It's not what I would do (I would find out where Daniels is slated to be drafted and use whatever resource necessary to get him), but all that matters is what Schoen will do.
You need to be able to make explosive plays to win
Jones has not shown to be able to do that. Possibly he's grown gun shy, but we've seen more of them from Taylor and Devito. Maybe seeing them will help him, but there is no way in hell anyone can gamble their career on that happening.
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
Should we extrapolate from 2022? Or 2021? Or what? The Jones contract was predicated on him playing at the same level as at the end of 2022 which, to me, was the only time Jones looked like a good starting QB. Those hopes have been dashed. We have no idea what to expect from him in the future.
You simply won't accept Daniel Jones isn't good. You've admitted it yourself. So of course you're going to argue for "BPA."
But you've always been that way with all things Giants related, be it whomever was the GM, HC, certain player, etc. I remember you telling us how great Gettleman was.
Wrong again. Saying things just to say them does not make them true Eric.
I hated the Shurmur hire. Thought he would be awful and he was. I preached patience with DG because I thought his draft picks were pretty good, clearly his FA were awful, and then I came around and said yeah, it didn't work, he needs to go.
RE: I think it's important to try to see this through Schoen's eyes
Pretend for a moment that Jones is a good quarterback. If he were, it would make little sense to draft his replacement in April 2024. Signing a veteran (Tannehill, Mariota, Darnold, Minshew, etc.) to hold down the fort until Jones is ready to go - that would make sense. Maybe you pair that with a mid-round QB selection, but you've already got a developing young guy in the building.
Controlling for whether or not Jones is a good player, the timeline doesn't make sense for drafting a first round QB.
It's not what I would do (I would find out where Daniels is slated to be drafted and use whatever resource necessary to get him), but all that matters is what Schoen will do.
Yes.
If you go back to Jones, you sign a decent veteran for insurance to play until Jones is healthy. You don't draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round.
1. Giants don't draft a QB in round 1 - Schoen doesn't know what he's doing, Mara is meddling, Daboll will be fired
2. Giants draft a QB in round 2 - clearly this is Mara meddling, they waited because now Jones doesn't have as much competition
3. Giants don't draft a QB at all - wow the entire front office needs to go
So essentially - anything other than a QB high in round 1 is a disaster - which flies in the face of team building and evidence based drafts where at times you can argue it is the opposite of what you should do if you don't have conviction on a guy
They need a new starting QB. There are no guarantees with any prospect but we already can see what happens with the guys we have on the roster now which is a known-disaster.
My opinion of the Giants roster is also that they seem to be nailing some draft picks recently. And in that vein I'd like them to continue to build from the trenches out in order to have an awesome fucking team around the QB. And then pivot to QB if they'd like.
Or they could take the QB now. I really don't care. But I do think that there's evidence to suggest that drafting pro bowl talent in the early rounds is how you compete year over year.
Look at the Chargers. They have made the playoffs exactly 1 time since Herbert has been there and they will miss it again this year.
Having a great QB guarantees you nothing unless your team around him is above average to pretty good.
Which is why I would not mind the Giants taking 3 kick ass players with their first 3 picks. Think of how that could shape their roster with Schoen's 2022 and 2023 drafts.
In this division with a rookie QB with John Mara calling the shots?
It buys them time.
Agreed. They have the built in excuse that you can’t expect a rookie to make the playoffs playing the Cowboys and Eagles twice a year. They’ll get at least two more years.
That excuse doesn’t exist anymore in year 6 of Daniel Jones.
What I'd like to see happen is Schoen trade up on the first round and draft Daniels. Even if that comes at a high cost.
What I think will happen is Schoen will draft a quarterback on the second round, because that is a more tenable course of action for ownership.
i would bet on round 1 for the 5th year option. if there is someone they like with a 2nd round pick, it's in their interest to move up to pick #32 to take them so they get the extra year.
whether that's with their top 10 pick or a trade up from the 2nd round i think depends on who is available with the top 10 pick (duh). assuming they aren't in the top 2 picks, i could see them not wanting to pass on a harrison or malik nabers and then trying to move up for whoever the qb4/5 is since this draft has some interesting options. i wouldnt be surprised with daniels or penix going high or being this year's versions of kenny pickett. there is going to be some rightful skepticism of 5th year breakouts.
JonC always says to focus on what is done more than what is said. Who did Joe Schoen fly across the country to watch play?
These guys aren’t oblivious to weighing out scenarios like Eric mentioned. They will want their shot to succeed or fail with their own QB.
I heard Nix before Schoen flew out there. Its early in the process but I think he’s the guy late 1st early 2nd they’ll covet.
I would be very surprised to not see them go QB in the first two rounds this draft.
"We weren't sure about Daniel's health and we felt the value of [QBX] was too good to pass up. He's smart, tough, dependable. We'll have a healthy competition at QB this off season between QBX and Daniel. Tommy has done a good job too and deserves the chance to compete" - Joe Schoen, April 25, 2024
Exactly! It will be shocking if QB is not drafted high in 2024.
RE: RE: How many more years until Jones is a top 10 QB?
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
According to ESPN's rankings. He was 13th in passing in a year where he threw very few picks and 4th or 5th in running. Basically, if he is not running the ball and throws picks, he's pretty useless.
There are other site ratings. According to the NFL site's index, he was 18th. According to another site, he was 13th, again off the back of just 5 picks.
He is a below average qb and it showed up right off the hop this year. In the game he hurt his knee, he was 4 out of 9 for 25 yards. In the game before that in Miami, he threw for 119 yards on 20 attempts. We are going nowhere with this guy.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
has had a concussion and two serious neck injuries. Those injuries have made the entire debate about his performance irrelevant IMO. He'd have to be a consensus top 10 QB for it not to be. The Giants have to draft his replacement next spring in the first or second round. And Schoen and Daboll better get it right or they will be fired, especially after giving Jones that disastrous contract that is going to force the Giants to take a $22M cap hit, the largest in franchise history, in 2025. The NFL Is "not for long." That applies not only to players. It also applies to GMs and coaches.
has had a concussion and two serious neck injuries. Those injuries have made the entire debate about his performance irrelevant IMO. He'd have to be a consensus top 10 QB for it not to be. The Giants have to draft his replacement next spring in the first or second round. And Schoen and Daboll better get it right or they will be fired, especially after giving Jones that disastrous contract that is going to force the Giants to take a $22M cap hit, the largest in franchise history, in 2025. The NFL Is "not for long." That applies not only to players. It also applies to GMs and coaches.
Great point and it's so true.
People here have been debating the merits of Jones the QB for so long it's now almost overlooked that he's damaged goods.
Unfortunately, I've noticed you're in that groupie category too.
It's not hard to understand.
The Giants don't have a QB.
If you don't have a QB, you lose in today's NFL.
Daboll and Schoen are already on thin ice with the fans. The stadium crowd is already thin again (and I suspect DeVito playing is the only reason it wasn't completely empty on Sunday).
When you don't have a QB, you have to get one. Or you won't be employed.
are currently 14-15-1 with a playoff win under their belts in under 1.5 years with arguably the worst Oline in history and a disaster at WR over that time, and that's not even including all the injuries on DEF or at the QB position.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
I would argue because Mara doesn't want to keep firing people if he doesn't have to. I think (my opinion) that Giants fans are still smart enough to realize a new QB needs a couple of years.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
How can you say that no QB they bring in next year will be better than Jones, when Jones this hasn't even been better that other QBs already on the Giants' roster.
Unfortunately, I've noticed you're in that groupie category too.
It's not hard to understand.
The Giants don't have a QB.
If you don't have a QB, you lose in today's NFL.
Daboll and Schoen are already on thin ice with the fans. The stadium crowd is already thin again (and I suspect DeVito playing is the only reason it wasn't completely empty on Sunday).
When you don't have a QB, you have to get one. Or you won't be employed.
It's called QB hell.. It's real. It exists.
I'm not a groupy...I know QB hell is real....I'm just not stupid enough to think like the Washington Redskins, Cleveland Browns, and LV Raiders. I'm very disappointed to find out that you are. Just keep throwing darts, something will stick. It's worked well for the line, no?
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
are currently 14-15-1 with a playoff win under their belts in under 1.5 years with arguably the worst Oline in history and a disaster at WR over that time, and that's not even including all the injuries on DEF or at the QB position.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
is in the wrong sport. He should have been a decathlete. I said the same thing about Evan Engram, although he's admittedly had a resurgence with Jacksonville.
here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
are currently 14-15-1 with a playoff win under their belts in under 1.5 years with arguably the worst Oline in history and a disaster at WR over that time, and that's not even including all the injuries on DEF or at the QB position.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
The WRs/TEs are not bad. The QB is.
Lol...Yeah, they're not bad. Hiatt and Robinson are the only 2 TEs/WRs playing who would even make a roster right now. And none of them from last year would have started....on ANY roster.
I would argue because Mara doesn't want to keep firing people if he doesn't have to. I think (my opinion) that Giants fans are still smart enough to realize a new QB needs a couple of years.
What Mara wants and what he's had to do the last decade have rarely aligned.
If Daboll shows progress next year he will stick around.
If Daboll has another regressive season, which will undoubtedly come with more embarrassing losses, reports of in-fighting, and more unambiguous displays of bad judgement, he will be gone.
I think both of those statements are true regardless of QB.
here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
They thought enough of Jones to pay him. Why would that opinion change so much based on five games that they opt to start a rookie with a ton of money still owed to Jones?
Matt Citak
@MattCitak
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1m
Coach Brian Daboll said they’ll work as a coaching staff over the next two weeks to determine who starts at quarterback moving forward. Tyrod Taylor (ribs) is eligible to come off IR after the bye and is “getting better,” but there’s no definite timetable for his return
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The organization should take a proactive approach here...they are not going anywhere, check. This team and everybody else knows what Tyrod Taylor is, check. They need to find out about players moving forward, check.
The verdict is then in, let DeVito play out this season, and see if you have a viable backup QB for next season.
here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
They thought enough of Jones to pay him. Why would that opinion change so much based on five games that they opt to start a rookie with a ton of money still owed to Jones?
The obvious answer to that question is health - which schoen said. they can't count on him being healthy so they would be foolish to not give themselves a non-devito (or taylor) alternative.
If he's healthy I agree it's likely they start him over a rookie, unless they somehow luck into getting whoever next year's stroud is (which is luck insofar as most drafts just dont have a stroud that's within reach).
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
Yup. And it's being lost on many.
The guy is fucking hurt. No one knows when he's coming back. You are implying that it would have been perfectly fine or acceptable AND EVEN RELEVANT for Schoen to say something like "we aren't thinking about QB in the draft we have our guy in Jones." Cmon already. Schoen said the absolute safest and least controversial thing he could have said.
These execs offer up a whole lot of lip service because NO ONE WINS by saying the truth. NO ONE.
HE left the door open so no one calls him out on it later on. It's PR.
HEre's the cold hard truth--NO ONE knows WTF Schoen and Dabol are going to do In April. You can connect the dots yourself if you have even a shred of common sense and those dots lead to NYG possible taking a QB in rounds 1-2.
What Schoen said today shouldn't confirm anything unless you have no idea how these PCs work.
and yet Tommy DeVito seems fine with his targets, even with Waller on IR. Odd.
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
My opinion of the Giants roster is also that they seem to be nailing some draft picks recently. And in that vein I'd like them to continue to build from the trenches out in order to have an awesome fucking team around the QB. And then pivot to QB if they'd like.
Or they could take the QB now. I really don't care. But I do think that there's evidence to suggest that drafting pro bowl talent in the early rounds is how you compete year over year.
Look at the Chargers. They have made the playoffs exactly 1 time since Herbert has been there and they will miss it again this year.
Having a great QB guarantees you nothing unless your team around him is above average to pretty good.
Which is why I would not mind the Giants taking 3 kick ass players with their first 3 picks. Think of how that could shape their roster with Schoen's 2022 and 2023 drafts.
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You mean like Neal, and Wandale Robinson? Schoen has been hit and miss with his first two drafts. Then you have KT, who has come along this season and I like Banks at CB.
I didn't like Robinson at the time of the draft, and still don't. The guy fumbles yesterday deep in their territory on the end around (that was on him, ball was in his gut), then the next time drops a pass. All they do with him is throw five yard passes. Why the hell did they draft him, to do that? They never use him as a vertical threat since they drafted him, don't get it myself. This was before Hyatt arrived here too.
reaching cult level status with the Daniel Jones groupies.
I'm disappointed to say, but so are you in the anti-Jones camp way. You are so dispositive. No one is saying the Giants don't need to add to the QB room in 2024. They do. Schoen said so. But who they add is simply not knowable. To say that they will move up to draft a top 3 QB, could very well be how things work out. But it's not a fact or even how it must turnout. FA could factor into the equation for all we know. Schoen won't all of a sudden become very stupid if he thinks going a different direction in the draft is the move to make.
The recovery success rate for those seems to be pretty good for a 26 year old player.
Sure he may not be ready for week 1, but couldn't you just bring in a vet to hold down the fort until Jones is ready?
a vet will cost what Taylor cost, which isn't cheap, and just like Taylor is unlikely to go much farther than what they have cheap in Devito.
last year's draft had 2 good ones at the top and a bunch of questions, this year's is probably better than that (and both are infitely better than 2022 was). The timing lines up as well as it can the year after giving a guy $100m+ to get 5 years of cost control if they have a shot at someone they like.
of the situation is the Giants are not going to be able to overtake the Eagles and Cowboys for at least two more years. We're that far behind.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Raising the point that Waller, DJ, Saquon and AT have less than 40 snaps together, being down to 5th & 6th OTs, and his tossing out specific numbers of starting and total OL combinations, show where his head is at.
Same thing BTW on he and Dabs re: Wink. Schoen is bemused and rolling his eyes and said he thought Dabs just addressed that. Dabs is his usual bemused/annoyed self telling reporters he's moved on when they keep picking at something he already answered.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
The only reason I'd trade a ransom for one of the QBs
that may or may not become elite NFL QBs is if Jones is in true danger of having to consider not playing any longer because of his neck injuries. Otherwise, I stay the course and keep building the entire team. Eric says as much that they won't catch the Eagles for 2 or 3 years. A QB at the top of the draft while trading a ton of other resources for him doesn't help the cause. What QB has won the Super Bowl in his second year who isn't named Warner, Brady, Roethlisberger, or Wilson? So I assume that Eric expects lightning to strike for a 5th time in 2026, in SB 61 if we trade the farm for one of these guys. Ok.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
This is hearing what you want to hear to confirm your opinion. There’s nothing Schoen said today that is meaningful no matter what side of the aisle you’re on.
The path of least resistance for Schoen is trading into the end of round one or stay at the top of round two and selecting a second tier QB. That's my early bet.
He can assuage both sides of any internal debate with that approach. And that will be an exponentially lower investment draft pick wise than moving into say the top spot.
I think the most intriguing question is still whether they play Jones at all and risk injury in 2024.
and yet Tommy DeVito seems fine with his targets, even with Waller on IR. Odd.
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
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Folks do yourselves a favor, don't compare a player who was the No. 6 player in his draft year to an UFA making his second career start yesterday. Apples and oranges as they say. If you want to compare Devito with someone, try Taylor.
BTW, go look at how many times Devito has been sacked . (better O line play?). Yes, he's still learning to process the game quicker, hence some of the sacks are on him.
RE: The only reason I'd trade a ransom for one of the QBs
that may or may not become elite NFL QBs is if Jones is in true danger of having to consider not playing any longer because of his neck injuries. Otherwise, I stay the course and keep building the entire team. Eric says as much that they won't catch the Eagles for 2 or 3 years. A QB at the top of the draft while trading a ton of other resources for him doesn't help the cause. What QB has won the Super Bowl in his second year who isn't named Warner, Brady, Roethlisberger, or Wilson? So I assume that Eric expects lightning to strike for a 5th time in 2026, in SB 61 if we trade the farm for one of these guys. Ok.
Jones’ contract is up in 3 years. If a going to take them two to three years to build a roster to beat the the Eagles then they might as well start it with a better QB now.
The path of least resistance for Schoen is trading into the end of round one or stay at the top of round two and selecting a second tier QB. That's my early bet.
He can assuage both sides of any internal debate with that approach. And that will be an exponentially lower investment draft pick wise than moving into say the top spot.
I think the most intriguing question is still whether they play Jones at all and risk injury in 2024.
they will play him if he's their best chance of winning games.
it doesn't matter what is guaranteed to him in 2025 if you get fired in 2024.
RE: RE: The only reason I'd trade a ransom for one of the QBs
that may or may not become elite NFL QBs is if Jones is in true danger of having to consider not playing any longer because of his neck injuries. Otherwise, I stay the course and keep building the entire team. Eric says as much that they won't catch the Eagles for 2 or 3 years. A QB at the top of the draft while trading a ton of other resources for him doesn't help the cause. What QB has won the Super Bowl in his second year who isn't named Warner, Brady, Roethlisberger, or Wilson? So I assume that Eric expects lightning to strike for a 5th time in 2026, in SB 61 if we trade the farm for one of these guys. Ok.
Jones’ contract is up in 3 years. If a going to take them two to three years to build a roster to beat the the Eagles then they might as well start it with a better QB now.
Actually, I'd also welcome a move back into the first round to take a second tier QB if that's possible, and let him compete/learn. I just wouldn't trade this year's first plus next, plus plus plus, to take a QB in the first two picks.
The path of least resistance for Schoen is trading into the end of round one or stay at the top of round two and selecting a second tier QB. That's my early bet.
This is sensible yet utterly depressing. Schoen has to compete in a very tough NFL open market for QBs while playing the political angles on the home front. That sounds like a tall order. And here is another GM planning the off-season with a fear of being fired. A recipe for mistakes.
RE: RE: I would still consider QB a need if we drafted Bo Nix, Michael Penix
Jr. or the like. Penix Jr. had a lengthy injury history at Indiana (he ended four seasons with injuries, including two ACL tears) and Bo Nix has all day to throw and RARELY faces pressure.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
It doesn't matter what you and I think. It matters what Schoen and Daboll think, and how those players then perform.
Do you know how wrong BBI posters have been on quarterbacks the past 10 years??? It's comical. For fuck sake, we had guys still defending Josh Rosen on his third team.
Haha, throwing Milton under the bus :P
But nah, I've been so wrong about QBs too, namely Josh Allen.
Neal is the main outlier with Schoen's draft history thus far. He has been very good at evaluating talent. The nonsense with Thibodeaux, he snuffed that out and knew there was an elite talent there. Trading up for Banks was smart. That is why I am confident in his decision around the QB in regards to the draft.
If he doesn't take one, we can be pretty damn sure that he turned over every stone when it comes to these guys.
If he does take one, we can bet that he believes he is much better than Jones, or will be.
You have to keep throwing darts at the QB position until you hit the bullseye.
It is what it is.
You can't win in the NFL with a QB who throws one touchdown pass per game (if you are lucky).
Jones throws less than 1 per game.
Eric - I'm with you.
rnargi - Nobody wants to be Washington or LV or Cleveland. But, is the answer, instead, to stick with a guy who has proven to NOT be the guy? Moving forward with Jones if there is Williams, Maye, or Daniels (or maybe even Nix or McCarthy)available to you is irresponsible.
If anything, point a finger at Kafka and his system. But, Hyatt and Robinson becoming good and reliable targets. The Giants just happen to be lacking imagination with these guys. Hyatt only runs Go routes or deep ins. Where are the quick slants to the 2 of them?
Bellinger should be more than capable of getting more than the 1-2 targets he's getting. He showed a lot of promise last year. Waller should have been getting more targets when he was healthy. There have been many missed opportunities in the passing game every week.
Me personally, I'd like to add an absolute stud WR or Edge to this team instead of any QB not named Williams or Maye.
I would prefer Nabers/Odunze or Dallas Turner instead of Jayden Daniels. Just my opinion.
I've been with you on DJ. I have supported him and think he has gotten a raw deal. However, if we are drafting and Daniels is there, I'll go nuts if they don't grab him. DI will always top out at 8-12 amongst QBs. Daniels is special. Really special. Moves like Lamar, but has a more accurate arm and far better and more consistent throwing motion and release. IMO, he's going to be the type of franchise altering QB that has a team in contention every year.
Daniel Jones must have some Svengali-like hold on people...
"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle on Jones the player, but the injuries pull me to the side of let's move on immediately.
However, unless you just hate the guy personally (or because you hate the man who drafted him) I think it's somewhat easy to see why he's been able to stick around and his his share of support.
1) He's literally everything you'd want in a QB in terms of character, toughness and intangibles. He won over 3 separate coaching staffs.
2) You're not being serious if you don't see that he's had very little talent around him and a string of terrible injury luck (i.e. Thomas, Barkley, Waller all going down around him until he eventually went out).
3) He's probably one of the most athletic QBs in the game and his running ability as a QB is dynamic. He played at an all-pro level on the road in the NFL playoffs. Say what you will about the Vikes defense, not everyone can do that.
4) We've watched a lot of the ineptitude around him over the years, be it Engram dropping the game clincher in Philly in 2020 or the general horrific nature of our OL during his tenure.
All of this to say, again, while I don't share the sentiment at this point and would rather move on, Jones has been more than some scrub who brings nothing to the table as some here have been saying for years.
The path of least resistance for Schoen is trading into the end of round one or stay at the top of round two and selecting a second tier QB. That's my early bet...And that will be an exponentially lower investment draft pick wise than moving into say the top spot.
This to me is what makes sense. Even if you believe the neck injuries to be non-issues going forward, his history of injuries is a long one that dates back to his college days. It simply can't be ignored at this point; and if the NFL scouts favor this upcoming QB class as much as the draftniks do, the Giants poor W-L record and the additional 2nd round pick present Schoen with the ideal opportunity to have his cake and eat it too when it comes to building around Jones and insuring against injuries and/or regression. I would've been in favor of the Giants spending a 3rd or 4th round pick on a QB even if Jones had had a Pro Bowl year. It's just good business (check out Belichick's QB picks during the Brady years). And a helluva lot cheaper than spending on the Tyrod Taylors of the world (because you can't go into the season without a worthwhile backup QB).
Me personally, I'd like to add an absolute stud WR or Edge to this team instead of any QB not named Williams or Maye.
I would prefer Nabers/Odunze or Dallas Turner instead of Jayden Daniels. Just my opinion.
I've been with you on DJ. I have supported him and think he has gotten a raw deal. However, if we are drafting and Daniels is there, I'll go nuts if they don't grab him. DI will always top out at 8-12 amongst QBs. Daniels is special. Really special. Moves like Lamar, but has a more accurate arm and far better and more consistent throwing motion and release. IMO, he's going to be the type of franchise altering QB that has a team in contention every year.
What was the raw deal?
Being an early Rd1 pick, getting a shot as a rookie with a HoF in front of him, getting to stay as the starting QB for 4 additional years while coaches and GMs turned over, being granted a huge second contract with $82M guaranteed? Which is it?
RE: Daniel Jones must have some Svengali-like hold on people...
I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkley
This is what tells you they genuinely believe in Jones. They had every opportunity to hedge their bets with the $32M franchise tag and instead opted for commitment (were they afraid the Panthers might sign him away?).
reaching cult level status with the Daniel Jones groupies.
I'm disappointed to say, but so are you in the anti-Jones camp way. You are so dispositive. No one is saying the Giants don't need to add to the QB room in 2024. They do. Schoen said so. But who they add is simply not knowable. To say that they will move up to draft a top 3 QB, could very well be how things work out. But it's not a fact or even how it must turnout. FA could factor into the equation for all we know. Schoen won't all of a sudden become very stupid if he thinks going a different direction in the draft is the move to make.
Actually, for the past 12 months, I have not weighed in on the endless Jones debate. In the 28 years this site has been around, no subject has been debated more than Daniel Jones. Not even Eli.
I was agnostic towards Jones because I recognized the handicaps he was working with.
But now we have direct apple to apple comparisons. Not ONE, but TWO other quarterbacks have played for the Giants this year with no discernible dropoff. None. In fact, TD productivity has gone up. So have wins.
The excuses sound hollow now.
It's been five years. Another season won't change anything. If he's THE guy next year, we will have a losing record and he'll get hurt again. And you guys will be bitching about play-calling. It's as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
RE: RE: The lack of questions today on the Jones contract is disappointing
There are several questions that would have been more interesting than those that were asked.
The myth of the big bad New York media is a joke at this point. These questions were softballs.
The NY media sucks. They NEVER ask tough questions. That's not the point of NY being a pain in the ass. Our reporters are never informed so they create the story instead of reporting it. They love drama because it keeps them employed. That's the problem. Way too many reporters that get fed shit and need to keep their jobs somehow.
and yet Tommy DeVito seems fine with his targets, even with Waller on IR. Odd.
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
One can make the the argument that Jones is better than Taylor and DeVito. But it's not obvious.
Jones: 1-5 as starter. 2 TDs, 6 INTs.
Taylor: 1-2 as starter. 2 TDs, 0 INTs.
DeVito: 2-1 as starter. 7 TDs, 3 INTs.
The NFL is a lot like the NBA now in that if you don't have the superstar QB, you're not likely to be consistently competitive unless you are built like and coached like the 49ers. Stroud is a perfect example what a good QB can do.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
Have you been paying attention the last 10 years? Once the stadium is empty, Mara fires people. Schoen and Daboll will survive this year. Guys like Wink may not. Next year, if they are 5-12 again with Daniel Jones, Daboll will be fired.
If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
It's not that difficult.
Or they could be very happy with Jones as a QB, but worry about his availability short-term and durability long-term.
You don't spend a #1 pick on an insurance plan.
This just reminded me of Pugh. You don't draft an OL whose best attribute is his flexibility. You draft a guy in the first, especially high in the first, to lock down a position and be the man.
RE: RE: Daniel Jones must have some Svengali-like hold on people...
"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle on Jones the player, but the injuries pull me to the side of let's move on immediately.
However, unless you just hate the guy personally (or because you hate the man who drafted him) I think it's somewhat easy to see why he's been able to stick around and his his share of support.
1) He's literally everything you'd want in a QB in terms of character, toughness and intangibles. He won over 3 separate coaching staffs.
2) You're not being serious if you don't see that he's had very little talent around him and a string of terrible injury luck (i.e. Thomas, Barkley, Waller all going down around him until he eventually went out).
3) He's probably one of the most athletic QBs in the game and his running ability as a QB is dynamic. He played at an all-pro level on the road in the NFL playoffs. Say what you will about the Vikes defense, not everyone can do that.
4) We've watched a lot of the ineptitude around him over the years, be it Engram dropping the game clincher in Philly in 2020 or the general horrific nature of our OL during his tenure.
All of this to say, again, while I don't share the sentiment at this point and would rather move on, Jones has been more than some scrub who brings nothing to the table as some here have been saying for years.
And yet, the rest of the NFL doesn't rate Jones.
It's so unfair!
I guess they might - unlike you - have spotted his inability to progress his reads and see open receivers.
of the situation is the Giants are not going to be able to overtake the Eagles and Cowboys for at least two more years. We're that far behind.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Raising the point that Waller, DJ, Saquon and AT have less than 40 snaps together, being down to 5th & 6th OTs, and his tossing out specific numbers of starting and total OL combinations, show where his head is at.
Same thing BTW on he and Dabs re: Wink. Schoen is bemused and rolling his eyes and said he thought Dabs just addressed that. Dabs is his usual bemused/annoyed self telling reporters he's moved on when they keep picking at something he already answered.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
He literally said they would consider drafting a quarterback in the 1st round. That's way more than I expected.
You don't say that if you believe you have your guy.
RE: Daniel Jones must have some Svengali-like hold on people...
"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
Yup.
It's getting really weird.
What in the world has Daniel Jones done to engender this type of loyalty? He's 22-36-1 as a starter, with 62 TDs in five seasons with 40 INTs and 46 fumbles. Do the math. The numbers are comical.
RE: I think it's important to try to see this through Schoen's eyes
Pretend for a moment that Jones is a good quarterback. If he were, it would make little sense to draft his replacement in April 2024. timeline doesn't make sense for drafting a first round QB.
Love how your moving the goalposts, and now specifically saying "2nd round". Because as I - and others - pointed out how the eagles drafted Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract (just after leading the Eagles to a division crown in 2019) - that flies in the face of your argument. Hurts getting drafted in the 2nd round doesn't mitigate the argument; they felt they needed a QB so they spent a premium pick on one, immediately after signing their current QB1 to a large contract.
Of course, round 1 pick is more of a premium than a round 2 pick. That's not the point.
But this notion that there wouldn't be strong parallels to what PHI did in 2020 is bullshit.
But I guess if Schoen waits until round 2, the move makes perfect sense in your warped view, right? Or would that still show that to be a "stupid" move (as you've said repeatedly it would be)?
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
Have you been paying attention the last 10 years? Once the stadium is empty, Mara fires people. Schoen and Daboll will survive this year. Guys like Wink may not. Next year, if they are 5-12 again with Daniel Jones, Daboll will be fired.
So then why did they agree to offer Jones this type of contract? The damage done by Mara and Gettleman has put the team where it is. Mara is responsible for the product on the field and firing coaches and GMs won’t fix it.
The WRs are open. Kafka's scheme isn't the problem.
The problem is that none of the QBs on the roster are able to find those open receivers consistently.
There is a reason the OL is ranked 32nd. QB has no time to throw.
If Schoen and Daboll don't survive this will be the reason. Two years in the line is worse than when they started and they don't appear to have any answers.
Mara, Schoen, and Daboll screwed up royally giving Daniel Jones that contract. Now they are stuck with him for at least one more season, hopefully as the highest paid back-up in the league history and nothing more.
Mara can't fire himself.
Empty seats = someone getting fired.
We saw it 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022.
You are suggesting it can't happen again? SMH.
Beyond that, this team can't win with Daniel Jones at quarterback. Not in this division. They played a joke schedule last year and snuck up on some teams. The 1-5 start proved that was a mirage.
You can get pissed at me all you want, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you everything will be OK.
We're in deep shit. They have to get a QB in the next draft or it's going to be like this for another 5 years at least.
the more I think he was alerting DJ to be ready for competition. He can't cut him anyway because of the cap, and he doesn't want to embarrass him either (he doesn't deserve that). So he says he's the starting QB when healthy while also saying he's adding a QB in the offseason. I think Schoen is going to do whatever he can to bring in our future QB. GM's usually say nothing in these situations so what he said was preplanned and with a purpose.
Eric, you are sounding hysterical about the QB situation.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
You think other NFL coaches would dismiss this claim? The subsection of Giants fans who love Jones are literally the only people in the league who love Jones.
Eric, you are sounding hysterical about the QB situation.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
If they don't take a QB im rd 1 or 2 it will be a blunder equivalent to Dave Gentleman
Eric, you are sounding hysterical about the QB situation.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
Utterly ridiculous claim to make as long as you ignore all regular and advanced statistics.
Aren't W-L and TD-INT regular stats?
I haven't watched much football in my 56 years on this planet, but I've been led to believe that scoring is a key part of the game.
I'm being sarcastic as I agree with you. I'm saying that both DeVito and Tyrod have been better than Jones this year for both regular and advanced stats.
He literally said they would consider drafting a quarterback in the 1st round. That's way more than I expected.
You don't say that if you believe you have your guy.
Why not? I'm not sure there's a GM in the league who would answer that question any differently. The Packers drafted Aaron Rodgers when they had Brett Favre, the Colts drafted Luck when they had Peyton Manning, but even if you want to dismiss those as special circumstances given their ages, I'd be surprised to hear anyone say they wouldn't take the best player available regardless of position, which, btw, is what he said...
Quote:
We’ll take the best player available. If the best player available for our team is at a certain position, we’ll take it. I mean, we won’t shy away from it.
Let's say for a second, Eric, that your belief in Jones's ability was no different than the day you signed him to a contract with $82M guaranteed, how would you have answered that question?
And here's another question for you: it's April 2012, the Giants are coming off a Super Bowl victory and because of a previous year's trade, they have the first pick in the draft. Leaving out trade scenarios, would you pass on Andrew Luck?
Mara, Schoen, and Daboll screwed up royally giving Daniel Jones that contract. Now they are stuck with him for at least one more season, hopefully as the highest paid back-up in the league history and nothing more.
Mara can't fire himself.
Empty seats = someone getting fired.
We saw it 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022.
You are suggesting it can't happen again? SMH.
Beyond that, this team can't win with Daniel Jones at quarterback. Not in this division. They played a joke schedule last year and snuck up on some teams. The 1-5 start proved that was a mirage.
You can get pissed at me all you want, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you everything will be OK.
We're in deep shit. They have to get a QB in the next draft or it's going to be like this for another 5 years at least.
I agree with everything you wrote except the last sentence.
Schoen could just easily go with the Mara mantra that they have "done everything to screw Jones up" for 2023, and make the offseason about the Daniel Jones Experiment #6, designed to bring in even more support for Jones.
The GM double down...
You can't rule out that Schoen is not the right person for this job now.
So then why did they agree to offer Jones this type of contract? The damage done by Mara and Gettleman has put the team where it is. Mara is responsible for the product on the field and firing coaches and GMs won’t fix it.
Of the list of options, handing him that contract was the worst. Even the "out" is going to cost $22 million. There were enough warning signs that it was a terrible idea.
I don't care about the money as it's ownership's $100 million and they deserve it, but that contract was beyond dumb.
You can't rule out that Schoen is not the right person for this job now.
For the reasons you laid out, if the GM is purely trying to go along with what ownership wants, then no one is the right person for this job because the right person for the job wouldn't get the job in the first place. Anyone who doesn't think that trying to salvage jones wasn't part of the assignment when Schoen and Daboll were hired is a fool. They hired Daboll for his work with Quarterbacks.
Has been his reluctance to challenge teams down field. I do sort of agree with JS that things spiraled on us early on. The Oline was a complete mess and when Barkley was out defenses played us much differently. But we've seen Taylor and even DeVito attack defenses down field and have a developing weapon in Hyatt. Hopefully Jones has been paying attention. A version of Jones who is not afraid to attach down field is likely what the team had in mind when they gave him that contract. Still a huge over pay, but hardly the lost cause we say this year.
Regardless, we need to draft a QB. No way we can go in doubling down on Jones. But I would not reach for a guy either, as I should remind you, that's how we got into this position in the first place.
can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
Again, there has been no discernible difference in the three quarterbacks. Other than what they are paid.
If you can't see that, then you are infected with the mysterious Daniel Jones virus.
Which of the other two showed they were capable of doing what Jones did in the Arizona game? Which of the other two had a season like Jones had in 2022 (or showed they were capable of having a season like that)? You're acting like the only data we have on the three QBs is what we saw in 2023. And just because three QBs may perform similarly under very adverse circumstances doesn't mean that they would perform similarly under more favorable circumstances.
I'm not infected with any mysterious Daniel Jones virus. He may not check all the boxes, but he checks enough boxes that you can win with him. I don't see the Giants as being in QB hell, but the injury history is scary and I wouldn't hesitate to spend that top ten pick on a QB if there's one that I absolutely loved when we're on the clock.
If you believe that he's just not seeing and reacting fast enough
and people massively overlook the differences Saquan makes. Defenses legitimately alter their scheme for him which opens other things up. Jones is a better QB than the other two. The issue has been, Jones would not challenge defenses downfield. That version of Jones, especially with Barkley out on top and the mess the Oline was early on, sure we can have that debate. No one can predict when he comes back if he's going to play scared.
the Giants cut Jones in the spring of 2025, he'll likely garner a lot of interest because other teams won't be responsible for his old contract. But I think he'd only go into the season as a starter for another team if they wanted to use him as such for a year or two before they found their franchise QB. After that, he'd be a backup, which is fine. Jones belongs in the NFL, just not for $40M a year.
Like it was an all time performance. Tommy DeVito is on a 17 game pace that would equal more touchdowns than Jones threw for in 2022. With 5 games left there’s a slight chance he equals it in only 10 games.
No, the Giants would not have drafted Andrew Luck with Eli Manning being 31 years old and coming off his best season.
And wouldn't that have been a mistake?
Yes, it would have been a huge mistake. Eli wasn't anywhere close to be done. In that position, the Giants should have gotten a king's ransom for the #1 pick and rebuilt an OL that was done (and still hasn't recovered).
Why would the 2012 New York Giants want two franchise QBs?
Schoen made a point to mention that both AT and SB were out starting with SF which I thought was very smart.
Hard to take these evaluations seriously of Jones leaving this out.
Agreed. No doubt Jones played poorly, but if I were a betting man I would imagine we would have seen improvement had he not gotten hurt. But regardless, those guys have shown one thing we didn't see from Jones and that's throw down field. If that doesn't change, he won't be QB for long. You can;t win in the league these days without it.
the Daniel Jones cult loves to point to the second half of the Arizona game. Or the Minnesota playoff game. Maybe a game or two his rookie season.
But guess what? For every one of those games, you can point to five games where he sucks. Or you can point to the four seasons he got hurt and couldn't play.
He's an injury-prone QB who has trouble throwing touchdowns. He's at his best when running, yet now he has two neck injuries and an ACL. My guess is his next neck injury is the end of his career. But take injuries out of it, he's not good.
You're clinging to a game or quarter here and there. Taylor comes in and plays at the same level or better. DeVito comes in and has already tripled the TD throws. None of these QBs are the answer.
Daniel Jones is not going to get the Giants to a level to compete against the Eagles and Cowboys. He's just not going to do so.
I feel I'm talking to a guy who can't give over a bad relationship with some chick who is abusing him.
I said the end of Daniel would be if Taylor played and there was no noticeable dropoff.
That's exact what happened.
Worse, DeVito did the same.
Do you guys forget that at one point in the season, this team didn't score a touchdown in the first half of a game? I think that was every game Jones started.
Watch the Giants draft Bo Nix and the cycle starts all over again for the next 5 years. A polarizing QB among the fan base.
I can totally see it.
But what if Bo Nix ends up being the best QB in the draft?
I would be pleased if we drafted Nix. I don't see a huge difference between him and the supposed to guys except Daniels. To me this class is Daniels, a tier drop, then Williams/Maye/Nix/Penix.
That is an objective fact. But the comparisons to TT and TD are not apples to apples. The biggest difference besides things like Oline play, having Saquan, and quality of defenses has been DJ's reluctance to attack down field. Those guys have done it, he did not.
That is an objective fact. But the comparisons to TT and TD are not apples to apples. The biggest difference besides things like Oline play, having Saquan, and quality of defenses has been DJ's reluctance to attack down field. Those guys have done it, he did not.
The OL hasn't been that much better. It just hasn't. Thomas has helped settle some things down, but he also missed a chunk of one of those gams. The interior hasn't been good and neither has the RT.
Some of the sacks are on DeVito but the OL hasn't been a strength. Last week, the Giants had no yards rushing until the end of the 3rd quarter. DeVito didn't melt. He threw three TDs, something Jones hasn't done in four years.
I gave up a long time ago trying to predict which QB would end up being better in each draft.
And as I said above, no one on BBI seems to be any good at predicting it either. See Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, etc.
Comment was a bit tongue in cheek.
But seen enough of Nix in both conferences he played to conclude there is not much special in his game. His good stats this year has a lot to do with how Oregon runs their offense and some pretty bad defenses in West. And he still has a penchant for forcing bonehead throws anyway.
If going with one of the west coast QB prospects then go with one of the other guys that have more plus attributes.
Thomas was out early, Pugh has helped, and other people are playing better. The line now is inconsistent, some good reps, some bad. But it was outright disaster earlier on. We can tell ourselves otherwise to help boost our point, but it's just not true.
If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
The way I look it at is this:
- Daniel Jones isn't the guy.
- He's been hurt five times in five years (twice this year).
- Giants are going to have a relatively high draft pick, plus a second 2nd rounder if they need to move up (including possibly moving up late in the 1st round).
- Half the fan base is calling for the head of the GM and HC already. You can say that doesn't matter, but it does.
- This looks like a good year to draft a QB. There maybe a half dozen who are viable NFL starters.
If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
Thomas was out early, Pugh has helped, and other people are playing better. The line now is inconsistent, some good reps, some bad. But it was outright disaster earlier on. We can tell ourselves otherwise to help boost our point, but it's just not true.
I don't get the Pugh love. I don't think he has been good.
There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
Gettleman tended to react. For better of worse, Schoen has proven two drafts in a row that he will move to get the guy he wants. He traded up one spot to make sure he got Banks.
RE: There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
Thomas was out early, Pugh has helped, and other people are playing better. The line now is inconsistent, some good reps, some bad. But it was outright disaster earlier on. We can tell ourselves otherwise to help boost our point, but it's just not true.
I don't get the Pugh love. I don't think he has been good.
It' relative. There were so many issues before, some of it possibly communications, I don't know. But it was worse. Things have stabalized somewhat
Watch the Giants draft Bo Nix and the cycle starts all over again for the next 5 years. A polarizing QB among the fan base.
I can totally see it.
Nix is more interesting later on in the draft. He doesn't have any elite skills to warrant a lottery pick. But an investment in him on day two or early day three makes the idea more sellable.
RE: RE: There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
Gettleman tended to react. For better of worse, Schoen has proven two drafts in a row that he will move to get the guy he wants. He traded up one spot to make sure he got Banks.
Yeah, if the target is within striking distance, absolutely. Go get him. It can be a heavy prices to move up when you are talking about that high in the draft, so you have to be right. But if your guy is there to be had... go get him. We aren't turning this around without that guy, I agree.
If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
You don’t know if he’s Jones Part 2 until you see if he’s taking live bullets. Caleb Williams could end up Ryan Lead or Peyton Manning. Jayden Daniels could be a better Lamar or be Daniel Jones Part 2. We can form opinions on who will be good and who won’t, but with QBs you can’t know for sure.
Gettleman forced a QB pick because he was too late on realizing they needed one. The Giants are unfortunately in a similar spot. I don’t consider it forcing it in a highly regarded class. They could miss, but they have to take the risk.
Yes, it would have been a huge mistake. Eli wasn't anywhere close to be done. In that position, the Giants should have gotten a king's ransom for the #1 pick and rebuilt an OL that was done (and still hasn't recovered). Why would the 2012 New York Giants want two franchise QBs?
All very true, the Giants really would've had no choice but to trade him away for multiple #1 picks, but I bet there would've been some in the organization thinking, "we're gonna regret this one day."
In any case, Daniel Jones isn't coming off a Super Bowl victory, he's coming off an ACL injury; and Caleb Williams and Drake Maye aren't Andrew Luck and even if they were, the Giants won't be drafting in the top two or three. So putting history aside and given the Giants current circumstances, I don't see them waiting until Day 3 to draft a QB; so it really just comes down to where the QB prospects sit on their draft board compared to the prospects that fill other needs.
p.s.--The Chargers had a pretty good QB in Drew Brees, but fell in love with Phillip Rivers at the Senior Bowl (the Chargers coaching staff was coaching him at that game). Brees elevated his game, keeping Rivers on the bench for two years, but I think those years on the bench served him well and made for a more seamless transition from college to the NFL. The Giants could wind up following a similar model.
RE: There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
Yup.
It's getting really weird.
What in the world has Daniel Jones done to engender this type of loyalty? He's 22-36-1 as a starter, with 62 TDs in five seasons with 40 INTs and 46 fumbles. Do the math. The numbers are comical.
You can be rest assured that both Dallas and Philly would have replaced their starting QB well before now if they were putting out that kind of product too! Wentz was highly drafted prospect had a few great moments in Philly and was quickly replaced. Dak Prescott, a 4th round pick, has had a very productive career, however it’s the post-season that has been his biggest issue. But you can argue that Dallas is in it every year because of him.
That's why the scouts are flying to all these games. If a guy doesn't grade out, you don't draft him just because we need a QB. That goes for any position. The mindset can't be --get a QB at any cost. It has to be, get the right QB. Because without the right guy, this isn't going to change. In any draft class there are a limited number of guys who will pan out. In some classes, none of them do. No one knows for sure who will or who will not pan out, but the point is, it will be a pretty small number, so be smart.
Eric, another baseless claim. Half the Giants fan base is calling for Schoen and Daboll to be fired? That is nowhere near reality.
Majority of the fan base, I'd say probably over 90%, understand that Schoen is the right GM for this team and that Daboll is a good head coach.
Anyone who wants them fired already is either not thinking clearly or isn't invested in the long term success of the Giants, they just want someone to yell at every 2 years.
That's why the scouts are flying to all these games. If a guy doesn't grade out, you don't draft him just because we need a QB. That goes for any position. The mindset can't be --get a QB at any cost. It has to be, get the right QB. Because without the right guy, this isn't going to change. In any draft class there are a limited number of guys who will pan out. In some classes, none of them do. No one knows for sure who will or who will not pan out, but the point is, it will be a pretty small number, so be smart.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects. And if that’s the case, they have to take say Daniels at 5 even if he’s the #15 guy on their board. If they don’t someone behind them will
That's why the scouts are flying to all these games. If a guy doesn't grade out, you don't draft him just because we need a QB. That goes for any position. The mindset can't be --get a QB at any cost. It has to be, get the right QB. Because without the right guy, this isn't going to change. In any draft class there are a limited number of guys who will pan out. In some classes, none of them do. No one knows for sure who will or who will not pan out, but the point is, it will be a pretty small number, so be smart.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects.
How do you know that? From reading BBI?
Quote:
And if that’s the case, they have to take say Daniels at 5 even if he’s the #15 guy on their board.
And you're assuming Daniels is one of the three and worthy of a top five pick based on what? BBI? It's not as if you're watching 10 hours of college football a day and visiting with coaches and players every week.
Great Blue North and DraftTek updated their draft boards on Thanksgiving Day, neither of them had Daniels in their Top 32, let alone their Top 5. I don't think we have any idea at this point how the QB prospects will fall in the 2024 draft. There will be a ton of shuffling between now and then, some based on new information, some based on misinformation.
Eric, another baseless claim. Half the Giants fan base is calling for Schoen and Daboll to be fired? That is nowhere near reality.
Majority of the fan base, I'd say probably over 90%, understand that Schoen is the right GM for this team and that Daboll is a good head coach.
Anyone who wants them fired already is either not thinking clearly or isn't invested in the long term success of the Giants, they just want someone to yell at every 2 years.
Yeah, I'm all about baseless claims.
Viva Daniel Jones!
RE: RE: There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
But there may be six quarterbacks in this draft who are better than Daniel Jones, Tyrod Taylor, and Tommy DeVito.
Lol...6 better than Jones? Man...play the lottery if you're right, you'll win every time. And after a statement like that you call out people who don't want the Giants to do what Carolina did. Their team is fucked for a decade. I may be this "groupie" that you say (odd, coming from the biggest groupie I know in another line of work), but at least I don't have Dan Snyder Syndrome or Jerrah Jones Disease. With glaring needs at RT, RG, LG, OLB, S, CB, TE, WR, DT, and DE, you want to trade multiple 1sts and more for the CHANCE we get Peyton Manning II. Lol.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects.
How do you know that? From reading BBI?
Quote:
And if that’s the case, they have to take say Daniels at 5 even if he’s the #15 guy on their board.
And you're assuming Daniels is one of the three and worthy of a top five pick based on what? BBI? It's not as if you're watching 10 hours of college football a day and visiting with coaches and players every week.
Great Blue North and DraftTek updated their draft boards on Thanksgiving Day, neither of them had Daniels in their Top 32, let alone their Top 5. I don't think we have any idea at this point how the QB prospects will fall in the 2024 draft. There will be a ton of shuffling between now and then, some based on new information, some based on misinformation.
From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
Daneil Jones is not an NFL caliber starting quarterback.
Even if he was, he can't stay on the football field.
He's never going to be good enough to close the gap with the Eagles and Cowboys.
Dragging this out longer than five years is just going to add to the pain, It happens. As my wife just said, stop drafting quarterbacks from Duke. It's a basketball school.
Daneil Jones is not an NFL caliber starting quarterback.
Even if he was, he can't stay on the football field.
He's never going to be good enough to close the gap with the Eagles and Cowboys.
Dragging this out longer than five years is just going to add to the pain, It happens. As my wife just said, stop drafting quarterbacks from Duke. It's a basketball school.
C'mon Eric. That's absurd. If it wasn't you Eric I'd think you were trolling BBI. Did Jones put the moves on your wife?
It's easy to predict where this is going with Daniel. He'll hang around as a disappointing starter either here or somewhere else for one or two more seasons. He'll end up playing for someone else like when Sam Darnold left the Jets. Then it will be apparent to everyone that he's a back-up at best. That's if he doesn't suffer another neck injury which forces him to retire.
Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
are only a small number of QBs in the league who are capable of winning a Super Bowl. That's just the way the league is now. Most of the teams are just fodder. We're in the fodder category.
That's why they need to keep throwing darts until they get this right.
Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
the Daniel Jones cult loves to point to the second half of the Arizona game. Or the Minnesota playoff game. Maybe a game or two his rookie season...You're clinging to a game or quarter here and there...Daniel Jones is not going to get the Giants to a level to compete against the Eagles and Cowboys. He's just not going to do so...I feel I'm talking to a guy who can't get over a bad relationship with some chick who is abusing him.
I think you're misreading me and the Jones defenders in general. I don't think any of us are in love with Jones, we're just not ready to give up on him when there are things he does quite well. Just because we don't see the Giants as being in "QB hell" or desperate enough to trade up for one doesn't mean we are completely sold on him, nor does it mean we're opposed to taking a QB in the top ten if he's the BPA. In fact, I would love it if that were the case; but if it's not the case, so be it. They can still win the Super Bowl. Same as they did in 2007 and 2011, two seasons that began will low expectations.
Schoen and Daboll aren't two clowns off the street. They didn't have to sign him to the contract they did, they could've easily tagged him. And I don't for a second buy into the narrative about pressure from ownership (a fiction based on nothing more than confirmation bias because it's easier to fool yourself into believing you know more football than John Mara than it is to believe you know more than Schoen & Daboll). I'd be surprised if they went from believing him worthy of his contract in February to being desperate to replace him in November.
RE: There will not be 6 quality NFL starters in this draft
He can't stay healthy. He's had five injuries in five years that have cause him to miss significant playing time.
In four years, he has thrown 38 touchdowns passes (less than 10 per season). He has 40 INTs and 48 fumbles. He's won 22 games in five years.
His back-ups are playing just as well as he was.
Yeah, but I'm crazy. LOL
Now Eric you know I'd never say you were crazy. Just wrong about Jones. Except his injuries.
Anyway, nothing meaningful is going to happen with or about DJ for months and there's nothing to add that's going to change anyone's mind. Personally I'm rooting for wins.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ajr2456 --you go by your draft grade.
From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
I didn't realize you had the privilege of speaking with scouts and agents. Can you be more specific on what they had to say? I like the fact that Daniels is a 22-year old with five years of college experience, but too much of his production comes from running and he doesn't look big enough to sustain that at the NFL level.
Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
Reaches happen quite often. Anthony Richardson is one himself.. But we don't see many guys getting universally praised by the media and armchair QB's and then they fall in the draft. Then hey, turns out, they were right. Fans and media just ignore it and move on, but they make sure to bitch and moan during the Draft and all summer.
From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
I didn't realize you had the privilege of speaking with scouts and agents. Can you be more specific on what they had to say? I like the fact that Daniels is a 22-year old with five years of college experience, but too much of his production comes from running and he doesn't look big enough to sustain that at the NFL level.
Did you just write this with a straight face?
This year, Daniels has nearly 4K passing yard, 40 passing TDs against 4 INTs, a near 12 YPA and completes 72% of his passes. He does have 10 rushing TDs and 1K rushing.
He's 6'4", btw, with plenty of room to get bigger.
I don't mind legit criticism of a prospect, but posters need to wake up and really start paying more attention.
Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
Reaches happen quite often. Anthony Richardson is one himself.. But we don't see many guys getting universally praised by the media and armchair QB's and then they fall in the draft. Then hey, turns out, they were right. Fans and media just ignore it and move on, but they make sure to bitch and moan during the Draft and all summer.
Richardson was a reach? Based on what? Guys who get praised by the media don’t fall in the draft? Aaron Rodgers?
Giants corner Adoree Jackson on the possibility of losing Wink Martindale:
“I think losing a guy like Wink would be a huge blow,” the veteran corner said. “That’s why I don’t think he’ll do it. Because if you’re gonna do something like that, I don’t know, that’d be crazy … That’s like, let’s say you were a kid and you see your parents get into it and then they get a divorce. Then you’re sitting there like, ‘Damn, what the f— is going on?’
“And that’s how I personally feel it would be — it’s not gonna happen — but if that situation was to happen, that’s how I would be: like ‘What the hell is going on? Did we do something wrong? Is it us? Is it this? Is it that?’ And it [would be] too much confusion. That’s how I view it.
“[Martindale] coaches well, but he also listens to everybody and listens to the things we may want to change throughout the week or even during the game, which I think is cool. And I feel like you can’t have somebody else coming in. It could be the same, but at the end of the day that’s like somebody saying you’re gonna have a new stepdad or a stepmom. But I want my daddy or momma. I don’t want no stepdad.”
Jackson said he sees no sign of tension and “if that’s the case, they must need to get an Oscar or something. Good a– actors.”
@JordanRaanan
Here’s everything I know about the Brian Daboll-Wink Martindale situation.
Some of it stems from the offense’s struggles and the pressure it has put on the defense, the polar opposite approaches of both coaches, the Xavier McKinney situation and more.
There has definitely been tension. Didn’t know it reached the point of Jay Glazer’s report. And they seem to have genuinely kept it from reaching the players, which gives hope the relationship can be mended long term. Especially when the defense is playing at this level.
Martindale didn’t just get the game ball out of nowhere after Sunday’s win 🤔
@rydunleavy
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8h
A high-ranking #Giants official who spoke to
@nypostsports
after the game called the idea of a Brian Daboll and Wink Martindale rift “complete bulls–t.”
By
@MarkCannizzaro
@CarlBanksGIII
·
11h
Xavier McKinney has been Lights Out for the last few gms.. Sometimes, the *Squeaky Wheel* gets the oil. I'm glad he is more involved in the scheme, and I hope he stays a #NYGiants that INT was special.. the break on the ball after being at the Line of Scrimmage 💰
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
Except did you see KT's comments after the game?
just a thought
Quote:
While seemingly somewhat overblown, there does seem to be some smoke here. McKinney got the game ball last week, Wink this week. So while it seems like we shouldn't expect a Wink departure today, "complete bullshit" seems like a stretch as well.
My first thought on connecting obvious dots is that Strahan and Glazer are like brothers and Strahan has taken Thibs under his wing. Could there be a line off communication there? Not sure. I have no reason to believe Thibs would be involved, just a guess.
Except did you see KT's comments after the game?
I just skimmed the transcript but didn't see anything other than a few questions, nothing that covered this topic.
On the Wink Martindale-Brian Daboll tension, #giants Kayvon Thibodeaux says he “doesn’t acknowledge” things that don’t come from inside the building.
“Wink is a great coach”
The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper @GiantInsider
Kayvon praised the defense. Said he loves playing for Wink.
just a thought
This is also a possibility that should be worth considering. Anyone with half a brain could see how some tension could break out when the defense is doing all it can to keep the team in games and the offense is doing little to nothing...
But Jordan also said that he hadn't thought it had boiled to the point Glazer had made it, and I suspect there is a chance his remarks were stated a bit strongly.
just a thought
Could be.
I could see Daboll saying can we make a stop and Wink saying can you score some points.
Hopefully they can stay together.
just a thought
My exact thoughts.
Wink's an old school coach in the Buddy Ryan mold. I have zero doubt there's been tension about how unbelievably bad the offense was this year.
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Daboll on QB - staff will have plenty of meetings on this and other things
@giantswfan
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#NYGiants Daboll - waller and taylor are getting better...no definite timetable for their return
@charlottecrrll
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32s
Brian Daboll says Tyrod Taylor and Darren Waller are getting better. #giants
Do they have a chance to return after bye week?
“We’ll see”
@giantswfan
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#NYGiants Daboll - devito has done everything asked...just met with him again this morning..."made some progress...done a good job"....
@giantswfan
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#NYGiants Daboll on devito - he trusts his eyes and is "intelligently aggressive"......the reps have helped him
@MattCitak
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1m
Coach Brian Daboll said they’ll work as a coaching staff over the next two weeks to determine who starts at quarterback moving forward. Tyrod Taylor (ribs) is eligible to come off IR after the bye and is “getting better,” but there’s no definite timetable for his return
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Daboll on devito - "he has only played a few games and has a long way to go; he's done a good job"
#NYGiants Daboll - the younger players have played good football for the team....they have the right mindset and work hard to improve
@CarlBanksGIII
·
11h
Xavier McKinney has been Lights Out for the last few gms.. Sometimes, the *Squeaky Wheel* gets the oil. I'm glad he is more involved in the scheme, and I hope he stays a #NYGiants that INT was special.. the break on the ball after being at the Line of Scrimmage 💰
Until the interception,I can’t say I noticed McKinney at all.
@giantswfan
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3m
#NYGiants Daboll - gave wink the game ball because the defense had 3 takeaways and held a team to 7 pts
@Patricia_Traina
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3m
Daboll was asked about Wink and if he’ll be here the rest of the year. He said he addressed the matter last night.
@rydunleavy
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2m
#Giants Brian Daboll was asked 2x if he can assure that Wink Martindale will be the DC the rest of the season.
Said he is sticking to yesterday’s comments and moving forward.
So, not yes. But not no.
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Daboll - late bye week gives you more to look at than normal.....staff will work on reviewing on mon and tue and then get on to prep for packers
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Daboll -players will return next monday for walk thru
@PLeonardNYDN
Brian Daboll twice avoids answering whether Wink Martindale will definitely remain the Giants’ defensive coordinator the rest of this season. And he makes another weight joke about him and Martindale meeting over donuts. Refers to his comments last night. GM Joe Schoen is due to speak soon
Looks like we're getting the info from the beat writers tweets
New York Giants
@Giants
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1h
Watch GM Joe Schoen speak LIVE as the team heads into the bye week on http://Giants.com, GiantsTV, Giants App & YouTube
@charlottecrrll
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2m
Brian Daboll was asked if he could say for sure that Wink Martindale would be here rest of season.
Daboll said he’s leaving it at yesterday’s comments. Didn’t definitively say one way or other.
Teams do it all the time
@rydunleavy
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2m
Daboll still non-committal on #Giants QB after bye. Doesnt sound like it will be as simple as ‘gives us the best chance to win.’
@JordanRaanan
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1m
Giants players were given the full week off for their bye week, per Brian Daboll. Still, there are players trickling in and Daboll already met with Tommy DeVito this morning.
On the Wink Martindale-Brian Daboll tension, #giants Kayvon Thibodeaux says he “doesn’t acknowledge” things that don’t come from inside the building.
“Wink is a great coach”
The Giant Insider Podcast and Newspaper @GiantInsider
Kayvon praised the defense. Said he loves playing for Wink.
I have no way of knowing if that is what he truly believes, but do you really think he would say something bad?
Agree. Develop Devito as much as possible.
I don't think this is coming from the players. They seem genuinely confused about all of this.
Meanwhile, Daboll basically confirmed he's not happy with Wink. Yet some think this is coming from the players? LOL
Said he will address QB in either Free Agency or Draft though.
@rydunleavy
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Joe Schoen: The expectation is that Daniel Jones will be our starting QB when he’s healthy. #Giants
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Schoen - difficult sked in first 11 days....and things snowballed...had some injuries but have to continue to build depth so we can remain competitive
Said he will address QB in either Free Agency or Draft though.
I thought that was a great honest answer. I really thought he'd be cryptic on that one.
@JordanRaanan
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1m
GM Joe Schoen: “The expectation is that when Daniel (Jones) is healthy he will be our starting quarterback.”
He later adds when asked if it means they won’t draft a QB: “We’re going to have to do something at quarterback.”
Tyrod Taylor is a free agent.
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Schoen - going to have to do something at QB because taylor's deal is up and will have to decide devito's future too..need to have enough QBs over the offseason
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen - likes a lot of the guys brought in over this past offseason
@art_stapleton
Joe Schoen says the expectation is that Daniel Jones will be the starting quarterback when he is healthy. Adds that it won’t stop team brass from addressing QB room either in free agency or in the draft.
Mentions that Tyrod Taylor is pending UFA and Tommy DeVito is under contract. #NYGiants
I love Joe Schoen, he's like the anti Gettlman
@GiantInsider
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Schoen: "No regrets over roster building, but we will evaluate everything that we do."
@giantswfan
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#NYGiants Schoen - devito come a long way since he arrived...."done a good job"...has swagger and players like him
@Dan_Salomone
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Schoen said Tommy DeVito has come a long way since he arrived in May as an undrafted rookie. "That's a testament" to his work ethic. He's got some "swagger and presence" about him.
BPA no matter the position.
@giantswfan
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3m
#NYGiants Schoen - neal has strugged with injuries but "needs to play better and he knows that"
@Dan_Salomone
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2m
Schoen said they need to keep building the team. It's not just all on the quarterback.
@giantswfan
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2m
#NYGiants Schoen on jones - surgery went well....has seen some recover in 8 months....trainers will have to pull him back because he works so hare...no lock he will play wk 1 in 2024
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on drafting a QB high - "will take the best player available"....still believes in jones because he has seen enough since GM got here to do so
@Dan_Salomone
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1m
Schoen said they'll draft the best player available. He's done a lot of work on the draft already and is ahead of where he was last year. He tweaked his process this year so he could stay informed on all positions.
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on barkley - going to try hard to get something done with him...big part as a capt of keeping locker room together...has much respect for him
@GiantInsider
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1m
Schoen on Barkley:
"We will talk about UFA's in offseason. He comes to work every day, great teammate and captain. I respect Saquon a lot."
@GiantInsider
·
1m
Schoen on Leo trade:
"It made the most sense longterm with compensation."
That seems to be a bit hyperbole..
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on if neal is consideration at guard - "dont think so"...has seen too much tape and knows he can play tackle
But you can tell, there's not a "trust" there that Jones is a high caliber or franchise long-term guy.
Quote:
Daboll wouldn't answer if Wink is safe even this year.
That seems to be a bit hyperbole..
He was asked point blank if Wink was safe this year. He didn't answer.
But you can tell, there's not a "trust" there that Jones is a high caliber or franchise long-term guy.
Sammo85 - I agree and also how he is addressing the Barkley situation.
@Dan_Salomone
·
3m
Schoen said Evan Neal can play. He just needs to be more consistent. "That's what we expect from him."
@GiantInsider
·
2m
Schoen: "No regrets over roster building, but we will evaluate everything that we do."
was hoping for a less pro forma answer. they made mistakes, best to own them and say they learned from them.
@giantswfan
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3m
#NYGiants Schoen - barkley is one of the most productive offensive players in the league...had no plans to trade him this season
@GiantInsider
·
3m
Schoen:
"To move Saquon at the deadline didn't make sense."
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - thomas injuries and then the following injuries greatly impacted the OL.....schmitz done a good job and rest of OL requires patience...
You cut Shepard and keep Crowder as your punt returner and last WR.
@GiantInsider
·
1m
Schoen kind of shot down Evan Neal moving to guard. Seems they will stick with him at tackle next season.
@giantswfan
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1m
#NYGiants Schoen on gray - organization felt comfortable with gray as a PR based on what they saw in college.....says that move was on him and crowdee has done well in wash....but glad they added olszewski
Not sure how much he means it on Nov 27 but he said Daniel Jones is his starter when ready, will try to keep Barkley and Neal staying at Tackle.
He balanced some of that with that he will address QB in the offseason and will treat QB prospects in draft just like any BPA.
@JordanRaanan
·
57s
Joe Schoen on the punt return situation earlier this season: “That’s on me.”
@Dan_Salomone
·
59s
Joe Schoen said the Giants are in a relatively healthy cap situation.
@giantswfan
·
1m
#NYGiants Schoen - hit on okereke in FA... and have "relatively healthy cap situation and can move some things around" in the offseason
@Dan_Salomone
·
3m
Schoen said Evan Neal can play. He just needs to be more consistent. "That's what we expect from him."
Giants Videos
@SNYGiants
Joe Schoen says the Giants are not thinking about moving Evan Neal from tackle to guard:
"I went back and watched the Alabama stuff. The kid can play. We just got to get him to be more consistent."
@giantswfan
·
49s
#NYGiants Schoen - team facing adversity...but has 2nd youngest team in the league.....got to be patient and stay focused on big picture
@GiantInsider
·
34s
Schoen:
"It hurts that you're 4-8, but you can't lose focus on what we need to do. Need to build roster."
@GiantInsider
·
20s
Schoen shot down the Dabs/Wink stuff:
"I don't know where some of this stuff comes from."
@rydunleavy
·
29s
#Giants Joe Schoen says the relationship between Daboll and Martindale hasnt changed in 22 months
@giantswfan
·
42s
#NYGiants Schoen on wink issues with daboll? - says daboll address the report... "there will always be noise ... it is what it is"..."dont know where some of this stuff comes from"
Someone should tell Daboll.
He just added fuel to that fire.
Not sure I got that.
The obvious thing he hit on is that Jones is injured right now and his status for next year is up in the air anyway.
@GiantInsider
·
27s
Schoen:
"Through trying times we found out a lot about people in the building."
Quote:
Wink.
Someone should tell Daboll.
He just added fuel to that fire.
Schoen said Daboll addressed it already in initial response. And then intimated he doesn't agree with reported media story.
He just said he would.
@GiantInsider
·
27s
Schoen:
"Through trying times we found out a lot about people in the building."
What does that mean...
That is a great answer from Schoen on the QB stuff.
@JordanRaanan
·
57s
Joe Schoen on the punt return situation earlier this season: “That’s on me.”
Accountability is so refreshing
He chose not to.
Quote:
.
Not sure I got that.
The obvious thing he hit on is that Jones is injured right now and his status for next year is up in the air anyway.
He said very adamantly he will address QB this offseason. He is doing a good job of providing enough "grayness" that he is looking for his replacement vs. adding to the QB room.
I like that.
He did not say "we are definitely taking a quarterback in the 1st round of the draft."
What is so hard about this.
Quote:
.
Not sure I got that.
The obvious thing he hit on is that Jones is injured right now and his status for next year is up in the air anyway.
He literally said he expect him to be QB next year. Could be lying, but he said it.
@giantswfan
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3m
#NYGiants Schoen - there is a human and locker room element to making deals....it was a tough decision to trade williams....says every trade is different and you dont always get the player involved in the process like this one
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - says the staff has done a great job of sticking together and following the team's plan
@GiantInsider
·
3m
Schoen:
"We will get this thing going, trust the process, we have a lot of good people working on getting it better."
Correct - but again - why should this be news to anyone?
Schoen is going to take the best player available for the Giants at that draft slot.
@Dan_Salomone
·
3m
Joe Schoen said they have a lot of talented people in the building. "I believe the staff in there has stuck together" and understands the big picture.
He chose not to.
He said Wink wasn't going anywhere this season. Not sure where people get this stuff. Something like that.
@giantswfan
·
3m
#NYGiants Schoen - must be prepared to maybe bring in a QB who can win a few games early if jones is not ready for wk 1 next year.....so much is still undetermined
Quote:
In comment 16304249 Dave in Hoboken said:
Quote:
.
Not sure I got that.
The obvious thing he hit on is that Jones is injured right now and his status for next year is up in the air anyway.
He literally said he expect him to be QB next year. Could be lying, but he said it.
And that would be the case if they draft a kid in the top 2 rounds, right?
They're not handing the starting role to a rookie either way so for him to say that is not earth shattering.
@rydunleavy
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2m
#Giants are not acting like Daniel Jones is definitely going to be ready for Week 1. Might need someone to get through a few weeks.
Smart.
That's a pretty easy thing to say if it's true.
@rydunleavy
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2m
Joe Schoen indicates that #Giants ownership is on board with their plan. Important after all the 2-year cycle changes
@Dan_Salomone
·
1m
Schoen said there are no guarantees that Daniel Jones will be ready Week 1 in 2024 and they have to plan for that.
@art_stapleton
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1m
Tommy DeVito signed a standard 3-year rookie contract when he was added to the active roster earlier this season, Joe Schoen confirmed. #NYGiants
@Dan_Salomone
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1m
Schoen said there are no guarantees that Daniel Jones will be ready Week 1 in 2024 and they have to plan for that.
The smart and logical approach.
@DDuggan21
Biggest takeaway from Schoen: He said the “expectation” is that Daniel Jones will be the starting QB when he’s healthy. *However* Schoen pointed out that they need to add a QB this offseason based on the uncertain timeline of Jones’ ACL recovery. He didn’t rule out that being a QB in the draft.
Even in the first round? Schoen said they’ll take the “best player available.”
They are clearly looking at QBs.
They are clearly looking at QBs.
Of course.
Maybe just me, but I like his answers and tone.
The thing about not evaluating a QB solely from game tape was interesting coupled with his comments about the failure rate of high first-round QBs. The draft, as always, should be pretty interesting.
I saw the press conference. I saw no change in his body language.
They are clearly looking at QBs.
Drafting a qb early essentially resets the clock on Daboll / Schoen right? Ownership would have to give them time with another qb I’d think.
They do so either because they want to replace the existing starter or that guy is nearing the end.
Now Schoen may be perfectly happy with Jones and wants to be deliberately vague. But I doubt it.
They are clearly looking at QBs.
You are making this something that it is not.
Of course they are looking at QBs. What they need to do is take BPA throughout the draft including the first few rounds, in case their QB choices are gone or they can't trade up, if they wanted to.
They aren't just blindly taking a quarterback no matter what. That would be stupid. And that is the same reason people got pissed off at the Jones pick.
Quote:
but Schoen appeared uncomfortable talking about the Wink news. It certainly sounds like there's an issue.
I saw the press conference. I saw no change in his body language.
Agreed, no change.
While I think he may be acting kind of coy about not hearing about the Glazer report, he wasn't giving it any credibility.
It is odd.
Quote:
is a myth.
They are clearly looking at QBs.
Drafting a qb early essentially resets the clock on Daboll / Schoen right? Ownership would have to give them time with another qb I’d think.
That's my take. They have a built in excuse. Not with Jones.
They do so either because they want to replace the existing starter or that guy is nearing the end.
Now Schoen may be perfectly happy with Jones and wants to be deliberately vague. But I doubt it.
You are failing to recognize that taking a QB because you want to replace one doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. If you take the 3rd or 4th "best" QB in the draft and pass on the 2nd WR or best edge player, that would be a bad decision.
It's not that difficult.
Quote:
but Schoen appeared uncomfortable talking about the Wink news. It certainly sounds like there's an issue.
I saw the press conference. I saw no change in his body language.
I heard his voice cracking, but everyone sees things differently. His non-commitment was the loudest statement regardless.
Obviously, any number of things can happen that results in a personnel change post-season.
Fans forget there are two audiences for these remarks, the market and ownership.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
It's not that difficult.
Again, what do you think Schoen is going to say?
They'll take a QB if they think he's a franchise changing QB and if the opportunity presents itself. Which is what they should do.
Not being happy with Jones' play this season is not some mystery novel. Of course they aren't happy with what happened and then the injury.
Fans forget there are two audiences for these remarks, the market and ownership.
Ownership reacts to the market. Empty stadiums have caused GMs and HCs to be fired every couple of years here.
Bingo
Schoen was careful how to treat the reality of Jones situation for 2024 only. Very little if any praise, but avoided direct criticism.
We all know Jones/Giants are stuck together for 2024 due to contract guarantees/cap hit, plus injury.
Quote:
team that is happy with its QB doesn't draft a QB in the first round because of "BPA."
They do so either because they want to replace the existing starter or that guy is nearing the end.
Now Schoen may be perfectly happy with Jones and wants to be deliberately vague. But I doubt it.
You are failing to recognize that taking a QB because you want to replace one doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do. If you take the 3rd or 4th "best" QB in the draft and pass on the 2nd WR or best edge player, that would be a bad decision.
This is ridiculous. How do you know the QB that Schoen may draft at say #7 who happens to be the third QB taken is not the best of the bunch? Or that he is infinitely better than the first edge player taken? Are you saying everybody's evaluation is same and how they are drafted is how they will play in the NFL?
How do you type these things?
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
You keep beating this drum and I don't know why.
That quote from you, the exact same thing a lot of people were saying in 2019. And they picked Jones, who now everyone outside of a few people (such as myself) want him off the team.
To box yourself into a position is completely stupid. If they don't like the QB choices when they pick, they will not take those players.
Taking a player you don't want would be absolutely idiotic.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
Teams don't go BPA with a QB in the first round. They do so because they are looking to change QBs.
You're acting like this is the same as selecting a CB or WR.
Jones can't throw TD passes. That's kind of important.
What I'm saying is - everyone is pissed because the Giants reached for Daniel Jones.
Now - people are saying we have to take a QB no matter what.
Stick to a strategy.
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
"We weren't sure about Daniel's health and we felt the value of [QBX] was too good to pass up. He's smart, tough, dependable. We'll have a healthy competition at QB this off season between QBX and Daniel. Tommy has done a good job too and deserves the chance to compete" - Joe Schoen, April 25, 2024
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If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
Bingo
The bingo is to say Jones is our QB, and that we will evaluate QB in the offseason and BPA in the draft.
Like he said.
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You can't win in the NFL without a QB.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
You keep beating this drum and I don't know why.
That quote from you, the exact same thing a lot of people were saying in 2019. And they picked Jones, who now everyone outside of a few people (such as myself) want him off the team.
To box yourself into a position is completely stupid. If they don't like the QB choices when they pick, they will not take those players.
Taking a player you don't want would be absolutely idiotic.
You're confusing two different decisions and trying to make them as if they are one decision.
The decision to draft a QB in 2019 was the correct one.
Daniel Jones was the wrong choice.
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You can't win in the NFL without a QB.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
Yes. But the team has painted themselves into a corner.
If Schoen and Daboll go 5-12 next year with Daniel Jones, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
If Daniel Jones is on IR on November with another neck injury, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
There are a bunch of QBs in this draft. They have no option but to take one.
Welcome to QB hell.
Found the “I went back and watched Neal’s film at Bama” comment interesting.
Schoen talking about the OL combinations was sobering, that alone really shot the season
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
Yup. And it's being lost on many.
Fans forget there are two audiences for these remarks, the market and ownership.
Ownership reacts to the market. Empty stadiums have caused GMs and HCs to be fired every couple of years here.
I mean the trade, draft, and free agency market.
Schoen is establishing his hand with his competitors. And at the same time he has to maneuver in his own seat.
In November, there's no upside for him to imply anything other than Jones will be the starter when he's healthy.
Schoen has to 1) convince his boss it's time to move on 2) go find an upgrade.
Implying today to the press he's doing either doesn't benefit him.
Let's say the Giants get the 6th or 7th pick. Let's say Chicago/New England/Arizona fight to the death for Williams and Maye, and whether there are trades involved or not, those two guys are gone within the first 3 picks.
Then let's say Joe Schoen DOESN'T draft a quarterback at where the Giants pick. Let's say they draft Malik Nabers, or even trade down.
What I'm saying is - if Joe Schoen doesn't take a QB in that slot, it would mean he does not see the value in doing it, because he either A) doesn't believe in any of those QBs available at that time or B) he wants to take the prospect that he believes is a much better prospect at that draft position.
If Joe Schoen does not take a QB with their first 3 picks in the draft, and instead goes edge, WR, OL.....everyone will say Schoen sucks.
What I'm saying is that Schoen is not going to force pick a QB he doesn't like. That would be really fucking stupid, and the Giants can continue to build the roster and even get a QB in 2025 if Jones doesn't progress beyond what we saw in 2022.
That is it. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
What I'm saying is - everyone is pissed because the Giants reached for Daniel Jones.
Now - people are saying we have to take a QB no matter what.
Stick to a strategy.
No, and everyone doesn't say the same thing.
Reaching for Daniel Jones is one thing. Sticking with him is another. And providing him a second is yet another.
What the majority of posters are aligned on is that we need to upgrade at QB and this draft likely offers that chance based on volume of QBs and draft position.
Let's say the Giants get the 6th or 7th pick. Let's say Chicago/New England/Arizona fight to the death for Williams and Maye, and whether there are trades involved or not, those two guys are gone within the first 3 picks.
Then let's say Joe Schoen DOESN'T draft a quarterback at where the Giants pick. Let's say they draft Malik Nabers, or even trade down.
What I'm saying is - if Joe Schoen doesn't take a QB in that slot, it would mean he does not see the value in doing it, because he either A) doesn't believe in any of those QBs available at that time or B) he wants to take the prospect that he believes is a much better prospect at that draft position.
If Joe Schoen does not take a QB with their first 3 picks in the draft, and instead goes edge, WR, OL.....everyone will say Schoen sucks.
What I'm saying is that Schoen is not going to force pick a QB he doesn't like. That would be really fucking stupid, and the Giants can continue to build the roster and even get a QB in 2025 if Jones doesn't progress beyond what we saw in 2022.
That is it. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.
He is going to maneuver to get one of the top four QBs on his draft board. If he doesn't, I doubt he survives to 2025.
Kyle Shanahan had 4 shitty seasons early on with SF. Stability matters if you think you have the right GM and coach. The Giants do.
@DDuggan21
The other comment that jumped out was Schoen bluntly saying that Evan Neal “needs to play better.” Schoen added that he doesn’t think Neal needs to move to guard, believes he can play tackle but is missing valuable reps right now with his ankle injury.
Yes. Schoen also through in something about OL issues also have to a lot to do with not having the "QB pull the trigger quickly enough" or something like that. Which I think he is sending a message about some/all of our QBs.
Kyle Shanahan had 4 shitty seasons early on with SF. Stability matters if you think you have the right GM and coach. The Giants do.
If Schoen and Daboll roll with Daniel Jones in 2024, then they are not the right solution. They should be fired.
The upshot of winning those two games is that I don't think they are going to like the QB options available for that pick.
There will certainly be another QB on the roster next year; how he is acquired is a very open question.
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If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
It's not that difficult.
Again, what do you think Schoen is going to say?
They'll take a QB if they think he's a franchise changing QB and if the opportunity presents itself. Which is what they should do.
Not being happy with Jones' play this season is not some mystery novel. Of course they aren't happy with what happened and then the injury.
It doesn't even have to be a franchise changing QB. It has to be a competent QB who can give them a reliable floor. They don't even have a floor right now; Jones was supposed to have settled in the 12-15 range of QBs and he backslid toward the bottom and is injured. DeVito is a bottom tier starter at best and Tyrod will not be under contract.
They will not be able to afford a free agent backup, so that leaves the draft, and I will be willing to guarantee they aren't going to passively sit back and only pick a QB they feel 1000 percent confident is going to be a franchise changer and is also BPA when they pick. It doesn't work that way. If they like McCarthy or Daniels or Penix or Nix they will pick them over someone like Keon Coleman. Again, they do not have a QB1 on the roster right now, you cannot be a functional franchise without one.
Williams and Maye - gone within the first 3. That is about as much of a lock as there is in this year's draft. Marvin Harrison Jr, probably the 3rd.
New England is not trading out of their spot. Arizona might. Chicago might. If Schoen wants to trade, he can likely do it.
Just because he doesn't trade up doesn't mean he's making a mistake.
I'm actually not a Daniel Jones "groupie." I've said I'd be fine if they move on from him, I couldn't care less.
What I don't want them to do is just pick a QB because hey, why not. That is completely fucking stupid, and is the exact same reason you guys said we should not have taken Jones.
Yup.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
Williams and Maye - gone within the first 3. That is about as much of a lock as there is in this year's draft. Marvin Harrison Jr, probably the 3rd.
New England is not trading out of their spot. Arizona might. Chicago might. If Schoen wants to trade, he can likely do it.
Just because he doesn't trade up doesn't mean he's making a mistake.
Williams and Maye may not even be the best quarterbacks in the draft.
Kyle Shanahan had 4 shitty seasons early on with SF. Stability matters if you think you have the right GM and coach. The Giants do.
That's not true. For starters he's only bad 3 seasons below .500, and by the third season he took the team to the Super Bowl.
Just because he doesn't trade up doesn't mean he's making a mistake.
No one is saying this.
The argument is that he should come out of the draft with a QB in Rd 1 or Rd 2.
If you have to strawman your interlocutor's position to score a point, you have a shitty point to make.
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Eric, OK, fine. But again - you have to assume that everything just turns out perfectly for the Giants during the draft in that case.
Williams and Maye - gone within the first 3. That is about as much of a lock as there is in this year's draft. Marvin Harrison Jr, probably the 3rd.
New England is not trading out of their spot. Arizona might. Chicago might. If Schoen wants to trade, he can likely do it.
Just because he doesn't trade up doesn't mean he's making a mistake.
Williams and Maye may not even be the best quarterbacks in the draft.
With the recent "success" the Giants are probably out of the mix for whichever QBs settle in as the top guys... but probably are very much in the mix for trading back into the first round to grab someone who slips a bit. That's what I expect at this point.
Jones has had a concussion, two serious neck injuries, and now a torn ACL. That makes him unreliable, even if the Giants decide that their offensive struggles are more because of the porous OL than his play.
The ACL by itself isn't that concerning. Many players come back from that injury, and Jones is mostly a straight-line runner. He isn't Lamar Jackson. But the concussion and neck injuries are very concerning, especially since running is one of his better talents. The problem is that his running makes it more likely he'll be hit and suffer another concussion or neck injury.
Next season is likely the last that Jones will be on the Giants.
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In comment 16304347 Eric from BBI said:
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You can't win in the NFL without a QB.
They must come out of this draft with a QB, either in the 1st round or 2nd.
I agree you can't win in the NFL without a QB, but the absolute worst thing this team can do is force a pick just because it's a QB. That's how jobs are lost (and never regained). Last thing this team needs is to draft Christian Hackenberg...
Yes. But the team has painted themselves into a corner.
If Schoen and Daboll go 5-12 next year with Daniel Jones, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
If Daniel Jones is on IR on November with another neck injury, YOU (and everyone else) will want them fired.
There are a bunch of QBs in this draft. They have no option but to take one.
Welcome to QB hell.
Needless to say, that's awfully risky, Eric. Taking a QB in Round 1 or 2 that you don't believe can be/will be a franchise QB is not only investing foolishly and potentially setting your team back further, but it's also poor asset management. Those are premium picks that can be used to upgrade other positions.
If they draft a QB early that they don't love in 2024 and he performs poorly, the team is going to have fans and even the FO clamoring for a new QB, perhaps someone they actually love and see as an upgrade.
BPA is always the way to go, but I do agree with you that QB is valued at a premium.
It's incredibly difficult.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
In Round 1 or in general?
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
Barkley is arguably in this group, too. At least at draft time he was.
Schoen won’t make those same mistakes.
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BPA is a myth.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
Barkley is arguably in this group, too. At least at draft time he was.
Because of Wayne Gallman? No. RB was a need.
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Eric, I think most of us hope and want the Giants to replace Jones with a blue chip prospect, but I think you're underestimating how difficult that might be for Schoen.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
I agree, which is why I don't know if hitching their wagon to a rookie QB they don't absolutely love is the way they should go. You're spending a premium pick on a QB you may just like instead of spending it on other positions that can help you now.
Those of you on each side of the argument will dig in of course because that’s what you do.
NYG is going to draft a QB with a premium pick this year. May not be round 1, but they know they need a legitimate pivot from Jones.
"What have you learned from the job?" These best reporters are so bad. This big bad NY media everyone talks about. Comical.
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BPA is a myth.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
In Round 1 or in general?
BPA becomes a more serious consideration the further you go in the draft. All teams draft for need. KC isn't going to take a QB in the first round even if they have a QB rated at the top of their draft board.
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In comment 16304419 Eric from BBI said:
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BPA is a myth.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
Barkley is arguably in this group, too. At least at draft time he was.
Because of Wayne Gallman? No. RB was a need.
I said nothing about Gallman. Barkley was the BPA at 2. That RB was also a need is coincidental.
To the people that think they're trying to weed out a rat: They'd do it with much less damaging information than this. Imagine creating a shitstorm in the media and dragging Wink's name through the mud to weed out a rat. It's bush league and disrespectful to Wink.
This isn't a game, it's people's lives and reputations.
It's incredibly difficult.
But the fans are not going to give Schoen and Daboll a pass.
You have to deal with the real world. Schoen and Daboll have to save their jobs.
The more immediate real world factor is whether Schoen's boss is aligned with dumping Jones after 6+ games into the biggest contract in team history.
Forget the fans, Schoen has to convince Mara that he fucked up with Jones, but that Mara should still trust him to spend multiple high value picks on a quarterback.
Mara could easily say:
- No, I want to keep Jones or
- Why should I trust you to be picking quarterbacks?
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Daboll wouldn't answer if Wink is safe even this year.
That seems to be a bit hyperbole..
He referred to his answer yesterday, which is also a way of saying it's an old issue.
If the Giants had Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw in their prime, they would not have drafted Barkley.
Barkley was the highest rated player for the Giants at a position of NEED.
I am a big believer in taking the BPA, but rightly or wrongly, QB seems to be an exception for most teams. Most teams won't trade down and risk losing a QB they love. If Schoen loves one of the "second tier" QBs, he'll take him in the top 10, regardless of what anyone says. He'll also never admit that he "jumped" his own board to do so. That's just what happens in the NFL with QBs.
Assume the Giants are picking ninth, and the team at fifteen wants to trade up, and is offering a really good deal to do so. For any other position, the Giants would likely take the deal. But not if they are targeting a QB. Not unless the deal is phenomenal.
Those of you on each side of the argument will dig in of course because that’s what you do.
NYG is going to draft a QB with a premium pick this year. May not be round 1, but they know they need a legitimate pivot from Jones.
Ugh of course I meant to say Schoen
If Mara ties their hands, we're fucked.
Jones simply doesn't know how to throw TD passes.
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In comment 16304419 Eric from BBI said:
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BPA is a myth.
The only time I can remember the Giants going BPA is Carl Banks and Mathias Kiwanuka.
In Round 1 or in general?
BPA becomes a more serious consideration the further you go in the draft. All teams draft for need. KC isn't going to take a QB in the first round even if they have a QB rated at the top of their draft board.
Yes, which is why it's not STRICTLY BPA, but rather BPA as it pertains to positional value and other factors.
I am a big believer in taking the BPA, but rightly or wrongly, QB seems to be an exception for most teams. Most teams won't trade down and risk losing a QB they love. If Schoen loves one of the "second tier" QBs, he'll take him in the top 10, regardless of what anyone says. He'll also never admit that he "jumped" his own board to do so. That's just what happens in the NFL with QBs.
Assume the Giants are picking ninth, and the team at fifteen wants to trade up, and is offering a really good deal to do so. For any other position, the Giants would likely take the deal. But not if they are targeting a QB. Not unless the deal is phenomenal.
There are other QBs in this draft. And there are QBs in this draft who are clearly better than Daniel Jones.
If the Giants had Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw in their prime, they would not have drafted Barkley.
Barkley was the highest rated player for the Giants at a position of NEED.
You are missing the point. I am not making a comment whatsoever about need. That is a distraction that you are bringing in.
Barkley, at #2 in the 2018 draft was, in fact, the BPA on the board. Full stop.
I'm not saying they picked him BECAUSE he was the BPA, merely stating the fact that he WAS the BPA.
Argue against what I write, not what you want me to have written.
"What have you learned from the job?" These best reporters are so bad. This big bad NY media everyone talks about. Comical.
Sean, they're typical shit stirring school girls. It doesn't surprise me none of these ask direct questions. But that won't stop them from the speculative doomsday content they will still put out.
If Mara ties their hands, we're fucked.
Jones simply doesn't know how to throw TD passes.
He "doesn't know" how to throw TD passes?
That was reached a long, long time ago.
After five years, we know Jones:
-- Has thrown 20+ TDs in a year once
-- Jones has never broken 7 YPA in his career
-- Jones has played 16 games one time
-- Jones has broken 60 QBR one time
-- Jones was the QB for a winning season one time
-- Jones is dismal against winning teams
-- Jones is putrid in prime-time games
-- Jones is going into his 6th season in the NFL
-- Jones has been a turnover machine
It is insanely amazing the attachment fans have for this type of player who plays QB in the NFL.
It would be malpractice if Schoen doesn't draft a QB in the first or second round.
He is getting big bucks to do his GM thing. So do draft the guy you think could be the guy to make the team a viable contender for the Super Bowl. He has no other choice. Just do it because not trying to right the ship is unacceptable.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
I get Schoen said he'd go BPA, but the question should have been framed around the $47M cap hit in 2024 for Jones.
I also didn't love that with Jones, "it's a team game." But with Neal, "he needs to play better."
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
If the Giants had Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw in their prime, they would not have drafted Barkley.
Barkley was the highest rated player for the Giants at a position of NEED.
Regardless it was a horrible choice. There were options to move down some but Gettleman was basically Kevin Costner in Draft Day- it was Barkley no matter what...
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Now THAT is a legitimate concern.
If Mara ties their hands, we're fucked.
Jones simply doesn't know how to throw TD passes.
He "doesn't know" how to throw TD passes?
Nope.
He played in six games this year. He threw two TDs in the second half of one game. None in the other five. He has thrown 11, 10, 15, and 2 the past four seasons. Meanwhile, an undrafted schlub already has seven with the same team.
Your groupie status is showing again.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
I react to what I see.
And in today's NFL with the way FA works, teams go NEED more than ever.
I'm becoming more convinced either Daniels (slight longshot now), Nix, Ewers, or McCarthy are going to be a Giant in the top 50-60 picks of the draft.
I don't see a trade up in first. But those two picks in the 2nd now are premium. Seahawks pick is looking like a solid bet for a top 50 pick now.
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Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
Often they don’t, it requires a lot of luck for the best player on your board to also be a need
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
What is so hard to understand about this.
I react to what I see.
And in today's NFL with the way FA works, teams go NEED more than ever.
I'm not disputing that in the least. I made a very simple point that at the time of the draft Barkley was the BPA. This is not a controversial point.
It says nothing of need. It says nothing of whether it was the correct choice.
It is a singular statement. Barkley was the BPA when he was drafted.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
It doesn't matter what you and I think. It matters what Schoen and Daboll think, and how those players then perform.
Do you know how wrong BBI posters have been on quarterbacks the past 10 years??? It's comical. For fuck sake, we had guys still defending Josh Rosen on his third team.
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In comment 16304465 Eric from BBI said:
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Go back and look at every NYG draft and look at how "conveniently" the Giants said they drafted BPA when in fact it was a position that we all knew had to be addressed.
When they have drafted OL, they were desperate for an OL. Same with CB, WR, DL, QB, etc.
You are aware that BPA and need can be aligned, correct?
Often they don’t, it requires a lot of luck for the best player on your board to also be a need
I said nothing of the frequency of the alignment. Only that they can be aligned.
Reading comprehension seems to be a dearth this morning.
The mistake Gettleman made is you never draft a RB in the top 10. It's just dumb. But it was a need position and he was a great talent.
No, but he doesn't have a QB.
And he needs to get one.
Or he will be out on his ass.
That's reality.
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
What is so hard to understand about this.
Who said that in 2019? Herbert was the prize and we all knew he was back in school.
I also didn't love that with Jones, "it's a team game." But with Neal, "he needs to play better."
That's great fodder for the fans - and there are plenty of them who litter this board - who think the QB position is no more important that RB, WR, T, G, C, TE.
Build the team first, worry about a QB later... ;)
The mistake Gettleman made is you never draft a RB in the top 10. It's just dumb. But it was a need position and he was a great talent.
Cool. Another thing I'm not arguing against.
Correct he doesn’t.
If the Giants draft a QB high, Jones may even start the first month or two. He will then play himself out of a job or get hurt and the rookie will start.
Coughlin benched Warner when the Giants were 5-4 and went with Eli, who didn't win a game until the finale.
I said nothing of the frequency of the alignment. Only that they can be aligned.
Reading comprehension seems to be a dearth this morning.
I never said you said anything about frequency. Just having a conversation that’s it’s rare that they actually do. Relax.
I get Schoen said he'd go BPA, but the question should have been framed around the $47M cap hit in 2024 for Jones.
I also didn't love that with Jones, "it's a team game." But with Neal, "he needs to play better."
Given Jones' contract I'm pretty skeptical that the Giants are going to go into free agency looking for Taylor II. But they do need to add another QB. So that leaves basically 4 paths:
- Trade for a "distressed asset" QB--guy on a rookie contract who could benefit from a change of scenery...
- Go way into the bottom of the FA barrel.
- Trade up into the top 3.
- Draft a guy late on Day 1 or Day 2.
The distressed asset types that fit are guys like Mac Jones, Kenny Pickett, Kyle Trask, Malik Willis, and Desmond Ridder. None of whom seem appealing.
Then you have some of the higher dollar guys on rookie contracts that may shake free--Justin Fields and Bryce Young come to mind.
The bottom of the FA barrel--I'm skeptical you're going to get more than DeVito-esque play.
The trade-up path... I don't see it right now, particularly given today's Schoen comments. So that leaves the "Tier 2" QBs in the draft, basically whichever QBs don't ascend in the postseason process, or whichever ones that are not on the radar at all currently that do ascend.
It's a genuinely fascinating offseason. Probably the most since the OBJ trade.
QBs are very simple when it comes to the draft. if you have a grade on one worthy of picking, you pick them. that is almost whenever/wherever (unless you have burrow/herbert/mahomes signed long term).
devito has done them a big kindness in giving them what will hopefully be a cheap/experienced backup. at minimum he has shown he can be comparable to tyrod.
in the draft they will take the best QB they can when they are on the clock. if there is someone they like they may move up.
whatever happens from that moment on will get sorted out on the field.
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I said nothing of the frequency of the alignment. Only that they can be aligned.
Reading comprehension seems to be a dearth this morning.
I never said you said anything about frequency. Just having a conversation that’s it’s rare that they actually do. Relax.
"Often they don’t..."
That is a statement of frequency. My point was that BPA and need can align. I didn't say how often it happens. How often it happens is irrelevant to the point that the can align.
I'm sure Schoen will take a QB if he likes him and thinks he will absolutely be better than Jones.
But if he doesn't and takes WR, edge, or trades down, the Giants are not doomed and Schoen will not be fired.
Those two things can be accurate.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
I'm becoming more convinced either Daniels (slight longshot now), Nix, Ewers, or McCarthy are going to be a Giant in the top 50-60 picks of the draft.
I don't see a trade up in first. But those two picks in the 2nd now are premium. Seahawks pick is looking like a solid bet for a top 50 pick now.
This is how I see it. I don't see Schoen pulling off a Panthers trade. It's not impossible assuming he really likes someone, but with $47M in cap charges committed to Jones in 2024, I don't see Schoen doing that.
Schoen strikes me as someone who is very aware of the financial advantages around utilizing a rookie QB's salary window. The roster still has holes, so mortgaging a ton to move up for Williams/Maye probably doesn't make sense given the $47M cap hit to Jones next year and the $22M dead cap charge in 2025 assuming he's released. Schoen sees what's happening in Carolina.
Credit to Terps because he's been on this. Christian too. I see this:
-Jones the QB when/if healthy
-Rookie QB drafted within the top 50 (possibly first round)
-DeVito
I think that's the QB room. The hope would be the QB drafted ends up being the starter and this regime found their guy. It'll be a competition with everyone.
I just don't see an expensive trade up. The roster isn't where it needs to be for that and it doesn't make sense financially. 2025 would be a different story since they'd be much more financially lean at QB.
I'm sure Schoen will take a QB if he likes him and thinks he will absolutely be better than Jones.
But if he doesn't and takes WR, edge, or trades down, the Giants are not doomed and Schoen will not be fired.
Those two things can be accurate.
Your groupie status is showing again.
I don't hate Daniel Jones. He seems like a really sweet guy.
But he's not a good QB. Even fans who don't follow the game closely see it.
Again, the decision to draft a QB in 2019 was sound. The error was in the evaluation of the player selected.
How about both 2nds, 2025 1st, and a 2025 2nd?
Schoen might say yes. He also might say, eh, too rich, we will stay at 6 and be comfortable knowing we still have our assets in place. He might say, well, we aren't ready to contend yet, I'd rather keep all these picks, and adjust on QB next year.
It has happened before, plenty of times. And there are also teams who have done this and it completely backfired. Doesn't mean you don't do it, but it's not a guarantee.
Now if Caleb Williams is available at 2, I imagine Schoen says yes thanks, pleasure doing business.
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However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
I don't disagree. They've put themselves in quite a difficult situation by royally fucking up the Jones contract. Schoen can say all the right things but he's made his life incredibly difficult: he either needs to draft a QB that he maybe doesn't love to buy himself more time or not take a QB knowing next season is going to be rough and he may not survive. That's why the trade down and out may be best option. Then even if they are terrible next year, he can argue he anticipated it and set the franchise up to restart without Jones.
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Is that Joe sounds bullish on #26.
Yup.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
this is the mulligan id bet a lot of money they wish they had, and it was predictable from the moment they ended up not extending barkley and mike g reported barkley's asks as very reasonable (and less than what jonathan taylor ended up with).
now they are going to end up extending him for probably what taylor got or more, a year older.
Jones is not the answer but drafting a QB for the sake of drafting one is how you end up with a Jones. And then spend years making excuses for his play.
In fact how did that work out for the Jets?
Also keeping Neal at tackle is like keeping Jones as your starting qb. Admit the mistake and move on.
Unless of course they can land one of the top 3 guys in round 1.
In hindsight, I thought we were a great destination for Hendon Hooker in last year's draft. Would've been nice.
Unless of course they can land one of the top 3 guys in round 1.
In hindsight, I thought we were a great destination for Hendon Hooker in last year's draft. Would've been nice.
The Giants trading for Hooker wouldn't shock me, honestly. I know they did their homework on him and the Lions might want a more immediate Super Bowl contributor.
What I'm saying is that Schoen and Daboll coached Jones and team to a playoff win in 2022.
Their mindset might be hey, we have a much better roster now, some things didn't go our way in 2023, we might not want to mortgage the future for Drake Maye or Caleb Williams. We also might not want to take a guy at 6 that is more of a project.
I don't know. All I'm saying is, to put a blanket statement that Giants need to draft a QB in round 1 or 2 or they will be fired is a pointless statement.
A) they won't be fired
B) they went to the playoffs in 2022
C) they don't want to force a QB
D) they might not want to mortgage everything, they have just gotten things in a decent direction with draft picks lately
He chose not to.
I hear you, but it's Daboll. He never says anything like that and virtually never confirms or denies anything he doesn't have to. While there could be something there, Daboll has always been 100% consistent in addressing a question once - often saying next to nothing like "we spoke, that conversation will remain private" and repeat it until reporters stop digging.
I think Schoen is pretty damn transparent and accountable and his comments put serious doubt into this whole story. It could be Daboll was unhappy with Wink's handling of the X situation (I didn't like how he handled it) and it's a snowballing game of telephone with inevitable media exaggeration and/or distortion from there. The friction narrative always comes up with losing teams; that creates smoke but doesn't mean fire.
Like everything else, time will tell.
Schoen has a difficult task to get a new QB while getting his OL and DL up to snuff.
Swagger is one of the dumbest assets to try and quantify.
You don’t get to screw up the Jones contract, not have the solution to that mistake on the roster and have back to back unwatchable seasons. I think Schoen is the right man for the job, but unfortunately that’s just not how the business works.
Daniel Jones was a 1st round prospect by almost any measure and the first year Daboll had him, he played well and they won a playoff game. Things didn't go their way this year, it happened, it was shitty. I'm sure everyone is pissed about it.
If they are ready to give up on Jones they'll take a QB. If they aren't quite there yet and the QBs available do not match the grade and there are stud edge or WRs sitting there, they should select that player.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
wrong way to look at it.
they survive by playing whoever is the best player they can get at qb, and not getting mauled by those teams.
they will add someone they like this year - and logic dictates that will be a draft pick and not a free agent since they already put so much cap into the position.
events have aligned to spend a high pick on a QB if there's one available to them that they like, and it happens to be a good QB draft, so it will probably be a first round pick whether it's their first or a trade up from their 2nd back into the first. but i think it would be a mistake to totally write off jones based on this year's small sample in impossible circumstances. whether or not he's healthy is a big question but if he is it's possible he's still the best option to not get mauled by those teams.
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However, if Schoen doesn't like any of the quarterbacks in this draft I don't want him to force it. In that case I'd rather trade back or out of the first, accumulate draft capital for next year since we all know we'll be right back in the same boat looking for a QB next season. Unless Jones suddenly morphs into Joe Burrow, keeping him after next season doesn't make sense financially--even if he plays okay or even pretty good.
Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
Yeah, I really hope they're looking comprehensively at this and are not fixated on one QB they 'love.' They are not in a place to be very picky.
Again - you guys are freaking out because Jones didn't play well and then tore his knee.
Compounding that problem by taking a QB just to take one would be stupid, and not how you should run a franchise.
Schoen will take a QB in round 1 or 2 if he believes that QB can be, or will be, significantly better than Daniel Jones. If not, he will continue to take the best players available at their draft position to continue to add talent to this team that needs talent badly.
Just because you don't draft a QB in a specific year doesn't mean your franchise is doomed and you take your ball and go home. Giants can pivot with a veteran if they'd like or even go towards 2025 if they choose to not take a quarterback high in the draft.
What is so hard to understand about this.
A rookie QB does not need to be "significantly" better than Jones because his contract will allow for more flexibility with the rest of the roster. If a college QB right now is simply as good as Jones, he will cost less and also likely develop to be better than Jones, so it will likely be worth the pick. You have to account for cost (as well as opportunity cost, b/c if we take a QB, that means we're not drafting someone else. Similarly, if we stick with Jones for 3 more years, that's a ton of money that does not go to other players.)
DeVito & Taylor both showed if they have a quick trigger they can hit those open guys
Yes the OL eliminates a lot of waiting for guys to ‘appear’ more open & eliminates the luxury of having some delay in the qb processing - and there are times where it’s a full blown jail break (I realize this)
That being said… Taylor & DeVito are nothing special. They get the ball out quicker than Jones & throw guys open on occasion.
I mean Hyatt is open nearby every go route just lead the guy.
They need a qb who has a quick trigger like Devito or Taylor and processes and makes that decision quickly & airs it out. They’re out there. It doesn’t have to be Williams or Maye. It could be Nix or Daniels or… who knows.
*Add to this the fact that they have played as well as or better than Jones and both make between 35-40mm less than Jones will this year
The problem is in between his ears. IMO he simply doesn't process information fast enough.
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Who cares about questions concerning Neal and Jones . He’s not going to be candid about either . But what’s important to me is they fell way behind . If he wants to hide behind the “This is a young team that has many promising players “ line, let him do so .
It's not that difficult.
Quoted for excellence.
Especially given their need for OL, WR, Edge etc
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Completely absurd logic.
just a thought
That would be an insane level of drama to invite just to smoke out a rat.
Especially when the most likely rats are those with ownership interest.
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Agree. But again, how does Schoen and Daboll survive getting mauled by the Eagles and Cowboys again with Daniel Jones at QB? The entire fan base would be calling for their heads, just like McAdoo, Shurmur, and Judge.
So task of both is to identify 3-4 quarterbacks they really like, and then maneuver to get one. If they don't, I doubt they survive.
wrong way to look at it.
they survive by playing whoever is the best player they can get at qb, and not getting mauled by those teams.
they will add someone they like this year - and logic dictates that will be a draft pick and not a free agent since they already put so much cap into the position.
events have aligned to spend a high pick on a QB if there's one available to them that they like, and it happens to be a good QB draft, so it will probably be a first round pick whether it's their first or a trade up from their 2nd back into the first. but i think it would be a mistake to totally write off jones based on this year's small sample in impossible circumstances. whether or not he's healthy is a big question but if he is it's possible he's still the best option to not get mauled by those teams.
This is a well-reasoned opinion. (It therefore may not belong here.)
You can't win without a QB.
The Giants don't have a QB.
Giants fans will not tolerate another wasted season with Daniel Jones.
They will demand Schoen and Daboll get fired. The stadium will be empty. And Mara will have to react again.
You won't accept this because you think Daniel Jones is still getting a raw deal.
What I think will happen is Schoen will draft a quarterback on the second round, because that is a more tenable course of action for ownership.
Also, aren't their contracts guaranteed? I realize that getting fired affects future employment prospects, but both guys have guaranteed multiple millions coming their way regardless, so I suspect they're less worried about losing their jobs than we may think.
And as always, you fail to understand what I'm saying.
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
I thought they'd be good in 2022 and also thought Jones would have a solid year. To me, any prediction of Jones bouncing back in 2024 has the vibe of the "2018 Eli revenge tour" stuff we heard back then. Jones looked out to lunch this season and his ceiling is already pretty limited. Defenders made a beeline to him on the RPO plays (like they are doing across the league) and so it's hard to imagine his running picking up the slack.
In 2024 - like in 2023 - the Giants are going to have a math problem with their schedule. Four very difficult games against the AFC Central, plus 4 games again against the Eagles and Cowboys. This leaves almost no margin for error if you aren't getting at least average QB play.
The Giants also should be concerned about the Commanders. If Josh Harris runs the team like he does the Sixers, that will be a 10 or 11 win team on their schedule twice a year and the equation gets even more difficult.
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the Giants will either trade back into round 1 or they'll use on of their round 2 picks on a guy in the Nix, Penix, McCarthy tier.
Unless of course they can land one of the top 3 guys in round 1.
In hindsight, I thought we were a great destination for Hendon Hooker in last year's draft. Would've been nice.
The Giants trading for Hooker wouldn't shock me, honestly. I know they did their homework on him and the Lions might want a more immediate Super Bowl contributor.
I think this is an interesting suggestion. I also would look at Justin Fields, who is due his 5th year rookie extension decision next spring. Fields has some of the physical characteristics that make him an interesting Daboll QB prospect. He might be available for pretty limited draft capital (3rd rounder?).
Yeah, and everyone said that going into 2022. And then they were a pretty solid team that made the playoffs until getting killed by a superior team on the road.
We all thought they'd be improved this year, and that didn't happen.
Predicting what a team will be is pretty pointless. It depends on a lot of factors. Schedule, injury luck, and play. Unfortunately those 3 things were all negatives this year.
Man, why are you so obsessed with everything I say?
The Giants weren’t a good team last year, all the secondary metrics agree. They snuck by with a lot of smoke and mirrors, turnover luck and winning a statisticallly improbable amount of 1 score games. The Giants team we saw early in the season was the same team we saw in the Seahawks, Lions, and Eagles games last year. One without a QB and one that can’t score points.
It turns out the 2022 season was one of the most detrimental seasons in recent memory. If those one score games go the other way, the Giants aren’t paying Jones and are likely heading into year two of developing their new QB, with more cap space and a top pick to add to a developing roster. Instead they’re saddled with a cap hit of over $20 million until 2025 for a QB who will likely be a backup.
Also, aren't their contracts guaranteed? I realize that getting fired affects future employment prospects, but both guys have guaranteed multiple millions coming their way regardless, so I suspect they're less worried about losing their jobs than we may think.
And yet if Tyrod Taylor is healthy, he likely returns to the starting job. Why? Not because it's in the long-term interest of the team, but because Daboll is thinking about his job security.
You can't win without a QB.
The Giants don't have a QB.
Giants fans will not tolerate another wasted season with Daniel Jones.
They will demand Schoen and Daboll get fired. The stadium will be empty. And Mara will have to react again.
You won't accept this because you think Daniel Jones is still getting a raw deal.
Giants fans want to win, like all others.
The Giants coaches and FO want to win, like all others, because their jobs depend on it.
If the giants lose big again in this regimes year 3 it won't matter whether the QB is Daniel Jones, Bryce Young, or whoever this year's Bryce Young is. People will get fired.
There is no doubt they are going to add another QB - and i'd also say there's no doubt they will play whoever they think gives them the best chance to win because their jobs will be riding on that. They themselves wont know who that is until next Sept/Oct so trying to declare who that is (or isnt) right now is beyond pointless.
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Find someone who loves you the way ryanmkeane loves Daniel Jones
And as always, you fail to understand what I'm saying.
I love how you are unsuccessfully trying to play both sides of this.
You're not fooling anyone.
That's obvious.
You can't win without a QB.
The Giants don't have a QB.
Giants fans will not tolerate another wasted season with Daniel Jones.
They will demand Schoen and Daboll get fired. The stadium will be empty. And Mara will have to react again.
You won't accept this because you think Daniel Jones is still getting a raw deal.
Again, failing to understand my point, as always. I don't think Daniel Jones is getting a raw deal. I think he has shown he can play and had a shitty year and then tore his knee. If you are committed to Schoen and Daboll's rebuild, you'd also understand that the Giants are getting their shit kicked in in the trenches, and are clearly not ready to compete with Dallas and Philly. You'd also understand that they still have severe needs on both OL, DL, and at WR. They have 1 good pass rusher who happens to be one of the best in the league at that. They have 1 good interior DL who is the best in the league.
The Giants turning this around is not just about QB. If they like one better than Jones this year at their slot, they'll take one.
If they don't, they are committed to taking pro bowl talented players. Schoen clearly has an eye for talent as his draft picks have been pretty good.
Whether Jones is the QB or not in 2024 - I couldn't give a shit about it. I want them to have the best QB they can have for 2024 but also realize that if it doesn't matchup with value or they have to mortgage the future to do it, and they decide not to, I'll accept it.
There's a difference between being a DJ groupie and being a rational fan that wants Schoen and Daboll to do what they actually want to do. And if they choose to forgo QB, I accept that it what they want to do and I'm good with it.
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Is that Joe sounds bullish on #26.
Yup.
Which is another head scratcher about the way this team is run. If they felt that strongly about Saquon (and wouldn't even consider trading him), why did they not give him the 3-year contract and Franchise Jones????!!!!
There wasn't enough cap space to franchise Jones.
Valid, but you still need the QB. Dave Brown had a really solid OL in front of him.
That said, the reporters dropped the ball on the OL. There should have been more questions about the OL than just Neal.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
Oh yeah, and what's that?
What I think will happen is Schoen will draft a quarterback on the second round, because that is a more tenable course of action for ownership.
i would bet on round 1 for the 5th year option. if there is someone they like with a 2nd round pick, it's in their interest to move up to pick #32 to take them so they get the extra year.
whether that's with their top 10 pick or a trade up from the 2nd round i think depends on who is available with the top 10 pick (duh). assuming they aren't in the top 2 picks, i could see them not wanting to pass on a harrison or malik nabers and then trying to move up for whoever the qb4/5 is since this draft has some interesting options. i wouldnt be surprised with daniels or penix going high or being this year's versions of kenny pickett. there is going to be some rightful skepticism of 5th year breakouts.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
Nope, I'm giving my opinion which you guys clearly don't seem to understand.
I think Daniel Jones can be a top 10-12 QB in football. If Giants want to continue building the team and don't choose to take a QB where they draft, I'm sure Schoen will have his reasons for doing so.
If Jones is the QB next year and sucks again, the Giants will have drafted *hopefully* good players in the 2024 draft, and they can pivot to QB if need be.
If they don't take a QB and don't trade for assets in next year's draft, Schoen/Daboll are betting their careers on Daniel Jones. They may very well do that, but it's an enormous risk. If he has another awful year and any of the QB's in this draft that are picked after us have promising rookie seasons, they'll be fired the day after the season is over.
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
They could use a lot more impact players and then they can address the QB spot later in the draft and again in a following year or even later if needed.
I would have liked someone to ask Schoen about being outscored 89-17 in the two Dallas games and a few other tough questions.
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Oh, I understand you completely.
Oh yeah, and what's that?
You simply won't accept Daniel Jones isn't good. You've admitted it yourself. So of course you're going to argue for "BPA."
But you've always been that way with all things Giants related, be it whomever was the GM, HC, certain player, etc. I remember you telling us how great Gettleman was.
That's obvious.
i dont think that's so obvious in the nfl anymore.
another disastrous year and daboll will get fired regardless of the qb.
frank reich had a 40-33-1 record in IND and he just got fired in 11 games after leading the decision to trade an enormous haul for Bryce young.
1. Giants don't draft a QB in round 1 - Schoen doesn't know what he's doing, Mara is meddling, Daboll will be fired
2. Giants draft a QB in round 2 - clearly this is Mara meddling, they waited because now Jones doesn't have as much competition
3. Giants don't draft a QB at all - wow the entire front office needs to go
So essentially - anything other than a QB high in round 1 is a disaster - which flies in the face of team building and evidence based drafts where at times you can argue it is the opposite of what you should do if you don't have conviction on a guy
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A new quarterback buys Schoen and Daboll time.
That's obvious.
i dont think that's so obvious in the nfl anymore.
another disastrous year and daboll will get fired regardless of the qb.
frank reich had a 40-33-1 record in IND and he just got fired in 11 games after leading the decision to trade an enormous haul for Bryce young.
Agreed, a promising rookie year for Jones didn't save Shurmur.
If we draft a QB, you have to give the regime two more years IMO.
My opinion is that Jones can be a top 10-12 QB. Would you like me to repeat why I think that or have you had enough of it?
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5? 10?
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
What about the other 4 years? Where’s he rank in yards and touchdowns?
Controlling for whether or not Jones is a good player, the timeline doesn't make sense for drafting a first round QB.
It's not what I would do (I would find out where Daniels is slated to be drafted and use whatever resource necessary to get him), but all that matters is what Schoen will do.
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5? 10?
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
Should we extrapolate from 2022? Or 2021? Or what? The Jones contract was predicated on him playing at the same level as at the end of 2022 which, to me, was the only time Jones looked like a good starting QB. Those hopes have been dashed. We have no idea what to expect from him in the future.
I think it will buy them two years but it's no guarantee.
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In comment 16304604 Eric from BBI said:
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Oh, I understand you completely.
Oh yeah, and what's that?
You simply won't accept Daniel Jones isn't good. You've admitted it yourself. So of course you're going to argue for "BPA."
But you've always been that way with all things Giants related, be it whomever was the GM, HC, certain player, etc. I remember you telling us how great Gettleman was.
Wrong again. Saying things just to say them does not make them true Eric.
I hated the Shurmur hire. Thought he would be awful and he was. I preached patience with DG because I thought his draft picks were pretty good, clearly his FA were awful, and then I came around and said yeah, it didn't work, he needs to go.
Controlling for whether or not Jones is a good player, the timeline doesn't make sense for drafting a first round QB.
It's not what I would do (I would find out where Daniels is slated to be drafted and use whatever resource necessary to get him), but all that matters is what Schoen will do.
Yes.
If you go back to Jones, you sign a decent veteran for insurance to play until Jones is healthy. You don't draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round.
1. Giants don't draft a QB in round 1 - Schoen doesn't know what he's doing, Mara is meddling, Daboll will be fired
2. Giants draft a QB in round 2 - clearly this is Mara meddling, they waited because now Jones doesn't have as much competition
3. Giants don't draft a QB at all - wow the entire front office needs to go
So essentially - anything other than a QB high in round 1 is a disaster - which flies in the face of team building and evidence based drafts where at times you can argue it is the opposite of what you should do if you don't have conviction on a guy
They need a new starting QB. There are no guarantees with any prospect but we already can see what happens with the guys we have on the roster now which is a known-disaster.
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A new quarterback buys Schoen and Daboll time.
That's obvious.
i dont think that's so obvious in the nfl anymore.
another disastrous year and daboll will get fired regardless of the qb.
frank reich had a 40-33-1 record in IND and he just got fired in 11 games after leading the decision to trade an enormous haul for Bryce young.
In this division with a rookie QB with John Mara calling the shots?
It buys them time.
Or they could take the QB now. I really don't care. But I do think that there's evidence to suggest that drafting pro bowl talent in the early rounds is how you compete year over year.
Look at the Chargers. They have made the playoffs exactly 1 time since Herbert has been there and they will miss it again this year.
Having a great QB guarantees you nothing unless your team around him is above average to pretty good.
Which is why I would not mind the Giants taking 3 kick ass players with their first 3 picks. Think of how that could shape their roster with Schoen's 2022 and 2023 drafts.
In this division with a rookie QB with John Mara calling the shots?
It buys them time.
Agreed. They have the built in excuse that you can’t expect a rookie to make the playoffs playing the Cowboys and Eagles twice a year. They’ll get at least two more years.
That excuse doesn’t exist anymore in year 6 of Daniel Jones.
My opinion is that Jones can be a top 10-12 QB. Would you like me to repeat why I think that or have you had enough of it?
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What I'd like to see happen is Schoen trade up on the first round and draft Daniels. Even if that comes at a high cost.
What I think will happen is Schoen will draft a quarterback on the second round, because that is a more tenable course of action for ownership.
i would bet on round 1 for the 5th year option. if there is someone they like with a 2nd round pick, it's in their interest to move up to pick #32 to take them so they get the extra year.
whether that's with their top 10 pick or a trade up from the 2nd round i think depends on who is available with the top 10 pick (duh). assuming they aren't in the top 2 picks, i could see them not wanting to pass on a harrison or malik nabers and then trying to move up for whoever the qb4/5 is since this draft has some interesting options. i wouldnt be surprised with daniels or penix going high or being this year's versions of kenny pickett. there is going to be some rightful skepticism of 5th year breakouts.
JonC always says to focus on what is done more than what is said. Who did Joe Schoen fly across the country to watch play?
These guys aren’t oblivious to weighing out scenarios like Eric mentioned. They will want their shot to succeed or fail with their own QB.
I heard Nix before Schoen flew out there. Its early in the process but I think he’s the guy late 1st early 2nd they’ll covet.
I would be very surprised to not see them go QB in the first two rounds this draft.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
How i yearn for a rational post.Lol.
"We weren't sure about Daniel's health and we felt the value of [QBX] was too good to pass up. He's smart, tough, dependable. We'll have a healthy competition at QB this off season between QBX and Daniel. Tommy has done a good job too and deserves the chance to compete" - Joe Schoen, April 25, 2024
Exactly! It will be shocking if QB is not drafted high in 2024.
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5? 10?
Well, he was 6th in the NFL in QBR in 2022. Did you catch that?
There are other site ratings. According to the NFL site's index, he was 18th. According to another site, he was 13th, again off the back of just 5 picks.
He is a below average qb and it showed up right off the hop this year. In the game he hurt his knee, he was 4 out of 9 for 25 yards. In the game before that in Miami, he threw for 119 yards on 20 attempts. We are going nowhere with this guy.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
Could be 2 years but right now feels like 2 light years. Our only hope is that their O-lines start to age out… Kelce/Lane, Martin/Smith.
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In comment 16304595 Eric from BBI said:
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A new quarterback buys Schoen and Daboll time.
That's obvious.
i dont think that's so obvious in the nfl anymore.
another disastrous year and daboll will get fired regardless of the qb.
frank reich had a 40-33-1 record in IND and he just got fired in 11 games after leading the decision to trade an enormous haul for Bryce young.
In this division with a rookie QB with John Mara calling the shots?
It buys them time.
why didnt daniel jones rookie year buy shurmur year 3?
A: because by that time he'd revealed himself to not be a competent leader.
if daboll has another chaotic big losing season next year he will find a similar fate.
Great point and it's so true.
People here have been debating the merits of Jones the QB for so long it's now almost overlooked that he's damaged goods.
2 necks and an ACL. Those are the facts here.
It's not hard to understand.
The Giants don't have a QB.
If you don't have a QB, you lose in today's NFL.
Daboll and Schoen are already on thin ice with the fans. The stadium crowd is already thin again (and I suspect DeVito playing is the only reason it wasn't completely empty on Sunday).
When you don't have a QB, you have to get one. Or you won't be employed.
It's called QB hell.. It's real. It exists.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
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are living in the real world.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
How can you say that no QB they bring in next year will be better than Jones, when Jones this hasn't even been better that other QBs already on the Giants' roster.
It's not hard to understand.
The Giants don't have a QB.
If you don't have a QB, you lose in today's NFL.
Daboll and Schoen are already on thin ice with the fans. The stadium crowd is already thin again (and I suspect DeVito playing is the only reason it wasn't completely empty on Sunday).
When you don't have a QB, you have to get one. Or you won't be employed.
It's called QB hell.. It's real. It exists.
I'm not a groupy...I know QB hell is real....I'm just not stupid enough to think like the Washington Redskins, Cleveland Browns, and LV Raiders. I'm very disappointed to find out that you are. Just keep throwing darts, something will stick. It's worked well for the line, no?
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are living in the real world.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Where the hell are you getting this from? This may be the most short sighted thing I've ever seen you write. Painted into a corner? Who the FUCK other than Stroud, (who was completely unavailable to us without having to have let Jones go in UFA and then spend a king's ransom to a QB needy team) would you have signed? Or would you have "rolled with Taylor"? Or drafted some yahoo like Who did you want? NO one better than Jones was available in the near term FOR the long term. They rolled the dice and gambled on Jones. It didn't work this year. You said earlier that people need to let the Simms shit go. Are you kidding? How many times was he hurt/benched before he became the lovable, "the great" Phil Simms? How many lost seasons, Eric? He finished the 1980 season with 15 touchdowns and 19 interceptions, while completing a subpar 48.0% of his passes for 2,321 yards. Remember when he said his wife had to sit in the stands and listen to fans cuss him out mercilessly? He was drafted in 79. He didn't win a playoff game until 1985. In his Super Bowl season, he threw 22 interceptions, which was more than TDs that year. I'm sorry, this myopic take is baseless. The draft is a fucking crap shoot. How's Herbert's record over his first three years looking? How many playoff games has Allen won? They might not even make the playoffs this season. How's the new contract for Burrow looking now? What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career? It's a fucking CRAP SHOOT. Last year, Tua was an injury prone bust. They do what they can, evaluate who they have, and hope something good happens. Good God. NO ONE they bring in next season will be better than Jones behind this line. Yeah...let's trade up for a HOPE and throw him behind this oline and all will be well. Lol. Unbelievable.
This reads like a serial-killer note.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
The WRs/TEs are not bad. The QB is.
It is what it is.
You can't win in the NFL with a QB who throws one touchdown pass per game (if you are lucky).
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
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are currently 14-15-1 with a playoff win under their belts in under 1.5 years with arguably the worst Oline in history and a disaster at WR over that time, and that's not even including all the injuries on DEF or at the QB position.
Yeah...they fucking suck and should be put on notice right now.
The WRs/TEs are not bad. The QB is.
It is what it is.
You can't win in the NFL with a QB who throws one touchdown pass per game (if you are lucky).
Then WHY ever FIRE a coach or front office man? Because the dart landed in the wrong spot? Sounds logical, too.
He's doing pretty well actually.
What Mara wants and what he's had to do the last decade have rarely aligned.
If Daboll shows progress next year he will stick around.
If Daboll has another regressive season, which will undoubtedly come with more embarrassing losses, reports of in-fighting, and more unambiguous displays of bad judgement, he will be gone.
I think both of those statements are true regardless of QB.
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here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
They thought enough of Jones to pay him. Why would that opinion change so much based on five games that they opt to start a rookie with a ton of money still owed to Jones?
@MattCitak
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1m
Coach Brian Daboll said they’ll work as a coaching staff over the next two weeks to determine who starts at quarterback moving forward. Tyrod Taylor (ribs) is eligible to come off IR after the bye and is “getting better,” but there’s no definite timetable for his return
The organization should take a proactive approach here...they are not going anywhere, check. This team and everybody else knows what Tyrod Taylor is, check. They need to find out about players moving forward, check.
The verdict is then in, let DeVito play out this season, and see if you have a viable backup QB for next season.
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You have to keep throwing darts at the QB position until you hit the bullseye.
It is what it is.
You can't win in the NFL with a QB who throws one touchdown pass per game (if you are lucky).
Then WHY ever FIRE a coach or front office man? Because the dart landed in the wrong spot? Sounds logical, too.
Good coaches and GMs get fired all of the time simply because they don't have a QB.
The myth of the big bad New York media is a joke at this point. These questions were softballs.
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What's "can't miss generational talent" Trevor Lawrence doing so far in his career?
He's doing pretty well actually.
Really? By what measure? He's thrown 12 TD passes in 11 games. Eric says you can't win in the NFL throwing 1 TD per game.
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In comment 16304690 Go Terps said:
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here's what was done: the Giants gave Jones a four year contract paying him $160M. When they did that they endured that if they drafted a QB in 2024 they would be costing themselves one of the biggest advantages to the rookie QB contract: cap space. Daniel is on the books for $47M in '24 and $23M in '25. So if they draft Maye or whomever, the first two years with him are going to be handicapped by what is essentially dead money for Jones.
Now overlay that situation with a GM/HC combo that could find themselves unemployed with a repeat performance in '24. You think Daboll and Schoen want to approach '24 with a rookie QB AND $47M that isn't contributing? Put yourself in their shoes.
putting yourself in their shoes results in the same answer every time - they will pick the qb they believe gives them the best chance to win.
they have correctly set the expectation that they will be drafting another qb because jones injury dictates that necessity. i'd personally bet on that being a 1st round pick, though i also wouldn't bet on that guaranteeing that jones doesnt end up starting more games next year than whoever they pick.
They thought enough of Jones to pay him. Why would that opinion change so much based on five games that they opt to start a rookie with a ton of money still owed to Jones?
The obvious answer to that question is health - which schoen said. they can't count on him being healthy so they would be foolish to not give themselves a non-devito (or taylor) alternative.
If he's healthy I agree it's likely they start him over a rookie, unless they somehow luck into getting whoever next year's stroud is (which is luck insofar as most drafts just dont have a stroud that's within reach).
It's not that difficult.
Or they could be very happy with Jones as a QB, but worry about his availability short-term and durability long-term.
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There are several questions that would have been more interesting than those that were asked.
The myth of the big bad New York media is a joke at this point. These questions were softballs.
Didn't stop Schoen from boosting their ego suggesting as much. Savvy move to help keep the questions soft.
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and throw Daniel Jones under the bus.
The fact that Schoen basically said he might take a QB in the draft is about as controversial a statement as a Giants front office person has made in 10 years.
Yup. And it's being lost on many.
The guy is fucking hurt. No one knows when he's coming back. You are implying that it would have been perfectly fine or acceptable AND EVEN RELEVANT for Schoen to say something like "we aren't thinking about QB in the draft we have our guy in Jones." Cmon already. Schoen said the absolute safest and least controversial thing he could have said.
These execs offer up a whole lot of lip service because NO ONE WINS by saying the truth. NO ONE.
HE left the door open so no one calls him out on it later on. It's PR.
HEre's the cold hard truth--NO ONE knows WTF Schoen and Dabol are going to do In April. You can connect the dots yourself if you have even a shred of common sense and those dots lead to NYG possible taking a QB in rounds 1-2.
What Schoen said today shouldn't confirm anything unless you have no idea how these PCs work.
He does? Really? I guess we've moved past his performances against the Jets, Raiders and Cowboys? How "fine" was he then?
Sure he may not be ready for week 1, but couldn't you just bring in a vet to hold down the fort until Jones is ready?
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
Or they could take the QB now. I really don't care. But I do think that there's evidence to suggest that drafting pro bowl talent in the early rounds is how you compete year over year.
Look at the Chargers. They have made the playoffs exactly 1 time since Herbert has been there and they will miss it again this year.
Having a great QB guarantees you nothing unless your team around him is above average to pretty good.
Which is why I would not mind the Giants taking 3 kick ass players with their first 3 picks. Think of how that could shape their roster with Schoen's 2022 and 2023 drafts.
You mean like Neal, and Wandale Robinson? Schoen has been hit and miss with his first two drafts. Then you have KT, who has come along this season and I like Banks at CB.
I didn't like Robinson at the time of the draft, and still don't. The guy fumbles yesterday deep in their territory on the end around (that was on him, ball was in his gut), then the next time drops a pass. All they do with him is throw five yard passes. Why the hell did they draft him, to do that? They never use him as a vertical threat since they drafted him, don't get it myself. This was before Hyatt arrived here too.
I'm disappointed to say, but so are you in the anti-Jones camp way. You are so dispositive. No one is saying the Giants don't need to add to the QB room in 2024. They do. Schoen said so. But who they add is simply not knowable. To say that they will move up to draft a top 3 QB, could very well be how things work out. But it's not a fact or even how it must turnout. FA could factor into the equation for all we know. Schoen won't all of a sudden become very stupid if he thinks going a different direction in the draft is the move to make.
Sure he may not be ready for week 1, but couldn't you just bring in a vet to hold down the fort until Jones is ready?
a vet will cost what Taylor cost, which isn't cheap, and just like Taylor is unlikely to go much farther than what they have cheap in Devito.
last year's draft had 2 good ones at the top and a bunch of questions, this year's is probably better than that (and both are infitely better than 2022 was). The timing lines up as well as it can the year after giving a guy $100m+ to get 5 years of cost control if they have a shot at someone they like.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Raising the point that Waller, DJ, Saquon and AT have less than 40 snaps together, being down to 5th & 6th OTs, and his tossing out specific numbers of starting and total OL combinations, show where his head is at.
Same thing BTW on he and Dabs re: Wink. Schoen is bemused and rolling his eyes and said he thought Dabs just addressed that. Dabs is his usual bemused/annoyed self telling reporters he's moved on when they keep picking at something he already answered.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
This is hearing what you want to hear to confirm your opinion. There’s nothing Schoen said today that is meaningful no matter what side of the aisle you’re on.
He can assuage both sides of any internal debate with that approach. And that will be an exponentially lower investment draft pick wise than moving into say the top spot.
I think the most intriguing question is still whether they play Jones at all and risk injury in 2024.
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and yet Tommy DeVito seems fine with his targets, even with Waller on IR. Odd.
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
Folks do yourselves a favor, don't compare a player who was the No. 6 player in his draft year to an UFA making his second career start yesterday. Apples and oranges as they say. If you want to compare Devito with someone, try Taylor.
BTW, go look at how many times Devito has been sacked . (better O line play?). Yes, he's still learning to process the game quicker, hence some of the sacks are on him.
Jones’ contract is up in 3 years. If a going to take them two to three years to build a roster to beat the the Eagles then they might as well start it with a better QB now.
Everyone is fine with targets. The Giants WRs have run open and amok all season.
Is this where if Jones was in you'd be saying who gives a fuck about passing stats and yards when the O can only put up 10 points all off turnovers.
I think the most intriguing question is still whether they play Jones at all and risk injury in 2024.
This is a way more interesting question instead of will they pick a QB.
He can assuage both sides of any internal debate with that approach. And that will be an exponentially lower investment draft pick wise than moving into say the top spot.
I think the most intriguing question is still whether they play Jones at all and risk injury in 2024.
they will play him if he's their best chance of winning games.
it doesn't matter what is guaranteed to him in 2025 if you get fired in 2024.
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that may or may not become elite NFL QBs is if Jones is in true danger of having to consider not playing any longer because of his neck injuries. Otherwise, I stay the course and keep building the entire team. Eric says as much that they won't catch the Eagles for 2 or 3 years. A QB at the top of the draft while trading a ton of other resources for him doesn't help the cause. What QB has won the Super Bowl in his second year who isn't named Warner, Brady, Roethlisberger, or Wilson? So I assume that Eric expects lightning to strike for a 5th time in 2026, in SB 61 if we trade the farm for one of these guys. Ok.
Jones’ contract is up in 3 years. If a going to take them two to three years to build a roster to beat the the Eagles then they might as well start it with a better QB now.
Actually, I'd also welcome a move back into the first round to take a second tier QB if that's possible, and let him compete/learn. I just wouldn't trade this year's first plus next, plus plus plus, to take a QB in the first two picks.
I would prefer Nabers/Odunze or Dallas Turner instead of Jayden Daniels. Just my opinion.
This is sensible yet utterly depressing. Schoen has to compete in a very tough NFL open market for QBs while playing the political angles on the home front. That sounds like a tall order. And here is another GM planning the off-season with a fear of being fired. A recipe for mistakes.
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Jr. or the like. Penix Jr. had a lengthy injury history at Indiana (he ended four seasons with injuries, including two ACL tears) and Bo Nix has all day to throw and RARELY faces pressure.
And they're both older prospects. So I think spending our Round 1 and Round 2 picks on a different position would be better than investing a premium pick on a potentially replaceable QB. If you're asking whether I would rather have Justin Fields for a fifth rounder or Nix/Penix for a first or second rounder, I'm going with Fields 10/10.
It doesn't matter what you and I think. It matters what Schoen and Daboll think, and how those players then perform.
Do you know how wrong BBI posters have been on quarterbacks the past 10 years??? It's comical. For fuck sake, we had guys still defending Josh Rosen on his third team.
Haha, throwing Milton under the bus :P
But nah, I've been so wrong about QBs too, namely Josh Allen.
If he doesn't take one, we can be pretty damn sure that he turned over every stone when it comes to these guys.
If he does take one, we can bet that he believes he is much better than Jones, or will be.
It is what it is.
You can't win in the NFL with a QB who throws one touchdown pass per game (if you are lucky).
Eric - I'm with you.
rnargi - Nobody wants to be Washington or LV or Cleveland. But, is the answer, instead, to stick with a guy who has proven to NOT be the guy? Moving forward with Jones if there is Williams, Maye, or Daniels (or maybe even Nix or McCarthy)available to you is irresponsible.
Bellinger should be more than capable of getting more than the 1-2 targets he's getting. He showed a lot of promise last year. Waller should have been getting more targets when he was healthy. There have been many missed opportunities in the passing game every week.
The problem is that none of the QBs on the roster are able to find those open receivers consistently.
I would prefer Nabers/Odunze or Dallas Turner instead of Jayden Daniels. Just my opinion.
I've been with you on DJ. I have supported him and think he has gotten a raw deal. However, if we are drafting and Daniels is there, I'll go nuts if they don't grab him. DI will always top out at 8-12 amongst QBs. Daniels is special. Really special. Moves like Lamar, but has a more accurate arm and far better and more consistent throwing motion and release. IMO, he's going to be the type of franchise altering QB that has a team in contention every year.
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle on Jones the player, but the injuries pull me to the side of let's move on immediately.
However, unless you just hate the guy personally (or because you hate the man who drafted him) I think it's somewhat easy to see why he's been able to stick around and his his share of support.
1) He's literally everything you'd want in a QB in terms of character, toughness and intangibles. He won over 3 separate coaching staffs.
2) You're not being serious if you don't see that he's had very little talent around him and a string of terrible injury luck (i.e. Thomas, Barkley, Waller all going down around him until he eventually went out).
3) He's probably one of the most athletic QBs in the game and his running ability as a QB is dynamic. He played at an all-pro level on the road in the NFL playoffs. Say what you will about the Vikes defense, not everyone can do that.
4) We've watched a lot of the ineptitude around him over the years, be it Engram dropping the game clincher in Philly in 2020 or the general horrific nature of our OL during his tenure.
All of this to say, again, while I don't share the sentiment at this point and would rather move on, Jones has been more than some scrub who brings nothing to the table as some here have been saying for years.
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Me personally, I'd like to add an absolute stud WR or Edge to this team instead of any QB not named Williams or Maye.
I would prefer Nabers/Odunze or Dallas Turner instead of Jayden Daniels. Just my opinion.
I've been with you on DJ. I have supported him and think he has gotten a raw deal. However, if we are drafting and Daniels is there, I'll go nuts if they don't grab him. DI will always top out at 8-12 amongst QBs. Daniels is special. Really special. Moves like Lamar, but has a more accurate arm and far better and more consistent throwing motion and release. IMO, he's going to be the type of franchise altering QB that has a team in contention every year.
What was the raw deal?
Being an early Rd1 pick, getting a shot as a rookie with a HoF in front of him, getting to stay as the starting QB for 4 additional years while coaches and GMs turned over, being granted a huge second contract with $82M guaranteed? Which is it?
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know,
And we're talking about a guy who was handed $140 million,
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reaching cult level status with the Daniel Jones groupies.
I'm disappointed to say, but so are you in the anti-Jones camp way. You are so dispositive. No one is saying the Giants don't need to add to the QB room in 2024. They do. Schoen said so. But who they add is simply not knowable. To say that they will move up to draft a top 3 QB, could very well be how things work out. But it's not a fact or even how it must turnout. FA could factor into the equation for all we know. Schoen won't all of a sudden become very stupid if he thinks going a different direction in the draft is the move to make.
Actually, for the past 12 months, I have not weighed in on the endless Jones debate. In the 28 years this site has been around, no subject has been debated more than Daniel Jones. Not even Eli.
I was agnostic towards Jones because I recognized the handicaps he was working with.
But now we have direct apple to apple comparisons. Not ONE, but TWO other quarterbacks have played for the Giants this year with no discernible dropoff. None. In fact, TD productivity has gone up. So have wins.
The excuses sound hollow now.
It's been five years. Another season won't change anything. If he's THE guy next year, we will have a losing record and he'll get hurt again. And you guys will be bitching about play-calling. It's as predictable as the sun rising in the east.
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If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
It's not that difficult.
Or they could be very happy with Jones as a QB, but worry about his availability short-term and durability long-term.
You don't spend a #1 pick on an insurance plan.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know,
And we're talking about a guy who was handed $140 million,
Just made one edit above to your very good post.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
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There are several questions that would have been more interesting than those that were asked.
The myth of the big bad New York media is a joke at this point. These questions were softballs.
The NY media sucks. They NEVER ask tough questions. That's not the point of NY being a pain in the ass. Our reporters are never informed so they create the story instead of reporting it. They love drama because it keeps them employed. That's the problem. Way too many reporters that get fed shit and need to keep their jobs somehow.
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and yet Tommy DeVito seems fine with his targets, even with Waller on IR. Odd.
Tommy Devito is +8 turnovers the last 2 weeks and has a QBR of 15 on the least (with a single game high of 34.1). Pressures on him have resulted in sacks at almost 2x the rate of Jones despite better OL play.
He has shown a lot of moxie and looks to be talented enough to be a decent backup but he's been on the fortunate end of 2 opposing QB meltdowns (3 if you want to count zappe).
One can make the the argument that Jones is better than Taylor and DeVito. But it's not obvious.
Jones: 1-5 as starter. 2 TDs, 6 INTs.
Taylor: 1-2 as starter. 2 TDs, 0 INTs.
DeVito: 2-1 as starter. 7 TDs, 3 INTs.
The NFL is a lot like the NBA now in that if you don't have the superstar QB, you're not likely to be consistently competitive unless you are built like and coached like the 49ers. Stroud is a perfect example what a good QB can do.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know,
And we're talking about a guy who was handed $140 million,
Yes, if you're a deluded fool, you can make that argument.
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are living in the real world.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
Have you been paying attention the last 10 years? Once the stadium is empty, Mara fires people. Schoen and Daboll will survive this year. Guys like Wink may not. Next year, if they are 5-12 again with Daniel Jones, Daboll will be fired.
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Find someone who loves you the way ryanmkeane loves Daniel Jones
And as always, you fail to understand what I'm saying.
Eventually, if everyone is always misunderstanding what you're saying, you have to at least consider that you might not be communicating it clearly.
Or that no one is misunderstanding it.
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can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know,
And we're talking about a guy who was handed $140 million,
Yes, if you're a deluded fool, you can make that argument.
And hence your groupie status.
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In comment 16304340 Eric from BBI said:
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If they are even considering a QB in the first round, they are not happy with Jones.
It's not that difficult.
Or they could be very happy with Jones as a QB, but worry about his availability short-term and durability long-term.
You don't spend a #1 pick on an insurance plan.
This just reminded me of Pugh. You don't draft an OL whose best attribute is his flexibility. You draft a guy in the first, especially high in the first, to lock down a position and be the man.
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"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
I consider myself somewhere in the middle on Jones the player, but the injuries pull me to the side of let's move on immediately.
However, unless you just hate the guy personally (or because you hate the man who drafted him) I think it's somewhat easy to see why he's been able to stick around and his his share of support.
1) He's literally everything you'd want in a QB in terms of character, toughness and intangibles. He won over 3 separate coaching staffs.
2) You're not being serious if you don't see that he's had very little talent around him and a string of terrible injury luck (i.e. Thomas, Barkley, Waller all going down around him until he eventually went out).
3) He's probably one of the most athletic QBs in the game and his running ability as a QB is dynamic. He played at an all-pro level on the road in the NFL playoffs. Say what you will about the Vikes defense, not everyone can do that.
4) We've watched a lot of the ineptitude around him over the years, be it Engram dropping the game clincher in Philly in 2020 or the general horrific nature of our OL during his tenure.
All of this to say, again, while I don't share the sentiment at this point and would rather move on, Jones has been more than some scrub who brings nothing to the table as some here have been saying for years.
And yet, the rest of the NFL doesn't rate Jones.
It's so unfair!
I guess they might - unlike you - have spotted his inability to progress his reads and see open receivers.
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of the situation is the Giants are not going to be able to overtake the Eagles and Cowboys for at least two more years. We're that far behind.
Sticking with Jones makes that timeline even longer. They will eventually dump him and have wasted those years too.
Eric, since you've made your mind up about Jones and what you think the Giants are thinking, I think you'll be disappointed if you actually watch Schoen (not read the transcript). It's as much a "Daniel is our man" as you'll get from any GM in this situation. If he's leaning toward drafting Jones replacement, he's the worlds greatest liar.
Raising the point that Waller, DJ, Saquon and AT have less than 40 snaps together, being down to 5th & 6th OTs, and his tossing out specific numbers of starting and total OL combinations, show where his head is at.
Same thing BTW on he and Dabs re: Wink. Schoen is bemused and rolling his eyes and said he thought Dabs just addressed that. Dabs is his usual bemused/annoyed self telling reporters he's moved on when they keep picking at something he already answered.
Another NYG ink-blot test.
He literally said they would consider drafting a quarterback in the 1st round. That's way more than I expected.
You don't say that if you believe you have your guy.
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
Yup.
It's getting really weird.
What in the world has Daniel Jones done to engender this type of loyalty? He's 22-36-1 as a starter, with 62 TDs in five seasons with 40 INTs and 46 fumbles. Do the math. The numbers are comical.
Love how your moving the goalposts, and now specifically saying "2nd round". Because as I - and others - pointed out how the eagles drafted Hurts 9 months after signing Wentz to a large contract (just after leading the Eagles to a division crown in 2019) - that flies in the face of your argument. Hurts getting drafted in the 2nd round doesn't mitigate the argument; they felt they needed a QB so they spent a premium pick on one, immediately after signing their current QB1 to a large contract.
Of course, round 1 pick is more of a premium than a round 2 pick. That's not the point.
But this notion that there wouldn't be strong parallels to what PHI did in 2020 is bullshit.
But I guess if Schoen waits until round 2, the move makes perfect sense in your warped view, right? Or would that still show that to be a "stupid" move (as you've said repeatedly it would be)?
The problem is that none of the QBs on the roster are able to find those open receivers consistently.
There is a reason the OL is ranked 32nd. QB has no time to throw.
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The WRs are open. Kafka's scheme isn't the problem.
The problem is that none of the QBs on the roster are able to find those open receivers consistently.
There is a reason the OL is ranked 32nd. QB has no time to throw.
The current QB holds the ball too long and the intended started doesn't process his reads fast enough to get to those WRs
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In comment 16304564 Eric from BBI said:
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are living in the real world.
They are going to be forced to find a QB. If that guy is another Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2026.
However, if they go with Daniel Jones, they will be fired in 2024.
They are painted into a corner because they don't have a QB.
Eric,
So you believe that Jones contract was done in a vacuum without Mara? The contract allows them to bring in another QB. Nobody is getting fired because of the DJ contract. Every situation is different. They inherited a mess. They will get the time if Mara trusts them. As a fan since 1956 what I sense is a lack of patience on this site. There are no quick fixes here.
Have you been paying attention the last 10 years? Once the stadium is empty, Mara fires people. Schoen and Daboll will survive this year. Guys like Wink may not. Next year, if they are 5-12 again with Daniel Jones, Daboll will be fired.
So then why did they agree to offer Jones this type of contract? The damage done by Mara and Gettleman has put the team where it is. Mara is responsible for the product on the field and firing coaches and GMs won’t fix it.
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The WRs are open. Kafka's scheme isn't the problem.
The problem is that none of the QBs on the roster are able to find those open receivers consistently.
There is a reason the OL is ranked 32nd. QB has no time to throw.
If Schoen and Daboll don't survive this will be the reason. Two years in the line is worse than when they started and they don't appear to have any answers.
Mara can't fire himself.
Empty seats = someone getting fired.
We saw it 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022.
You are suggesting it can't happen again? SMH.
Beyond that, this team can't win with Daniel Jones at quarterback. Not in this division. They played a joke schedule last year and snuck up on some teams. The 1-5 start proved that was a mirage.
You can get pissed at me all you want, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you everything will be OK.
We're in deep shit. They have to get a QB in the next draft or it's going to be like this for another 5 years at least.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
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can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
You think other NFL coaches would dismiss this claim? The subsection of Giants fans who love Jones are literally the only people in the league who love Jones.
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can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
You’d be wrong. The league didn’t take Jones serious prior to this year.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
If they don't take a QB im rd 1 or 2 it will be a blunder equivalent to Dave Gentleman
Aren't W-L and TD-INT regular stats?
I haven't watched much football in my 56 years on this planet, but I've been led to believe that scoring is a key part of the game.
Schoen will take a QB if he has conviction in that player.
What he will not do, is just take 1 just because.
Team needs talent at Edge, WR, and OL, arguably the 3 most important positions besides after QB.
There is value in beefing up these positions with 3 picks instead of taking a quarterback.
You can say it's ridiculous, but the Giants made the playoffs and won a road playoff game because of the QB they have on their roster right now. Was the schedule soft? Sure. Did our QB outplay Jackson, Lawerence, and Rodgers in those 3 wins? Yes, he did.
Again, Jones is injured and didn't play well in 2023. He was not injured and played well in 2022.
We'll see what the Giants do come draft time. But if they don't take a QB high, I imagine we will be seeing a lot of "I'm done with the Giants as a fan" and they'll come crawling back once they get good again, by drafting better players at important positions, beyond quarterback.
It's impossible to take you seriously.
Sure he may not be ready for week 1, but couldn't you just bring in a vet to hold down the fort until Jones is ready?
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Utterly ridiculous claim to make as long as you ignore all regular and advanced statistics.
Aren't W-L and TD-INT regular stats?
I haven't watched much football in my 56 years on this planet, but I've been led to believe that scoring is a key part of the game.
I'm being sarcastic as I agree with you. I'm saying that both DeVito and Tyrod have been better than Jones this year for both regular and advanced stats.
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can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
Again, there has been no discernible difference in the three quarterbacks. Other than what they are paid.
If you can't see that, then you are infected with the mysterious Daniel Jones virus.
He literally said they would consider drafting a quarterback in the 1st round. That's way more than I expected.
You don't say that if you believe you have your guy.
And here's another question for you: it's April 2012, the Giants are coming off a Super Bowl victory and because of a previous year's trade, they have the first pick in the draft. Leaving out trade scenarios, would you pass on Andrew Luck?
Those QBs were drafted because those teams knew the incumbents were nearing the end of their time with those respective teams.
Daniel Jones is 26 years old. 26.
No, the Giants would not have drafted Andrew Luck with Eli Manning being 31 years old and coming off his best season.
Mara can't fire himself.
Empty seats = someone getting fired.
We saw it 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022.
You are suggesting it can't happen again? SMH.
Beyond that, this team can't win with Daniel Jones at quarterback. Not in this division. They played a joke schedule last year and snuck up on some teams. The 1-5 start proved that was a mirage.
You can get pissed at me all you want, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you everything will be OK.
We're in deep shit. They have to get a QB in the next draft or it's going to be like this for another 5 years at least.
I agree with everything you wrote except the last sentence.
Schoen could just easily go with the Mara mantra that they have "done everything to screw Jones up" for 2023, and make the offseason about the Daniel Jones Experiment #6, designed to bring in even more support for Jones.
The GM double down...
You can't rule out that Schoen is not the right person for this job now.
I don't care about the money as it's ownership's $100 million and they deserve it, but that contract was beyond dumb.
You can't rule out that Schoen is not the right person for this job now.
For the reasons you laid out, if the GM is purely trying to go along with what ownership wants, then no one is the right person for this job because the right person for the job wouldn't get the job in the first place. Anyone who doesn't think that trying to salvage jones wasn't part of the assignment when Schoen and Daboll were hired is a fool. They hired Daboll for his work with Quarterbacks.
I can totally see it.
Regardless, we need to draft a QB. No way we can go in doubling down on Jones. But I would not reach for a guy either, as I should remind you, that's how we got into this position in the first place.
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In comment 16304921 Eric from BBI said:
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can make the argument that Daniel Jones is the 3rd best quarterback on his own team.
The fact that you can make that claim without sounding ridiculous is all you need to know.
It sounds ridiculous to me and I'm quite sure it would get a chuckle out of any head coach in the NFL.
Again, there has been no discernible difference in the three quarterbacks. Other than what they are paid.
If you can't see that, then you are infected with the mysterious Daniel Jones virus.
I'm not infected with any mysterious Daniel Jones virus. He may not check all the boxes, but he checks enough boxes that you can win with him. I don't see the Giants as being in QB hell, but the injury history is scary and I wouldn't hesitate to spend that top ten pick on a QB if there's one that I absolutely loved when we're on the clock.
No, the Giants would not have drafted Andrew Luck with Eli Manning being 31 years old and coming off his best season.
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You can't be this dumb.
You have no idea how dumb I can be. It scares me sometime.
Appreciate the self-deprecating humor! I amaze myself sometimes, too.
Hard to take these evaluations seriously of Jones leaving this out.
I can totally see it.
But what if Bo Nix ends up being the best QB in the draft?
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No, the Giants would not have drafted Andrew Luck with Eli Manning being 31 years old and coming off his best season.
And wouldn't that have been a mistake?
Yes, it would have been a huge mistake. Eli wasn't anywhere close to be done. In that position, the Giants should have gotten a king's ransom for the #1 pick and rebuilt an OL that was done (and still hasn't recovered).
Why would the 2012 New York Giants want two franchise QBs?
Hard to take these evaluations seriously of Jones leaving this out.
But guess what? For every one of those games, you can point to five games where he sucks. Or you can point to the four seasons he got hurt and couldn't play.
He's an injury-prone QB who has trouble throwing touchdowns. He's at his best when running, yet now he has two neck injuries and an ACL. My guess is his next neck injury is the end of his career. But take injuries out of it, he's not good.
You're clinging to a game or quarter here and there. Taylor comes in and plays at the same level or better. DeVito comes in and has already tripled the TD throws. None of these QBs are the answer.
Daniel Jones is not going to get the Giants to a level to compete against the Eagles and Cowboys. He's just not going to do so.
I feel I'm talking to a guy who can't give over a bad relationship with some chick who is abusing him.
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Watch the Giants draft Bo Nix and the cycle starts all over again for the next 5 years. A polarizing QB among the fan base.
I can totally see it.
But what if Bo Nix ends up being the best QB in the draft?
Then all the other prospects would really suck.
That's exact what happened.
Worse, DeVito did the same.
Do you guys forget that at one point in the season, this team didn't score a touchdown in the first half of a game? I think that was every game Jones started.
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Watch the Giants draft Bo Nix and the cycle starts all over again for the next 5 years. A polarizing QB among the fan base.
I can totally see it.
But what if Bo Nix ends up being the best QB in the draft?
I would be pleased if we drafted Nix. I don't see a huge difference between him and the supposed to guys except Daniels. To me this class is Daniels, a tier drop, then Williams/Maye/Nix/Penix.
And as I said above, no one on BBI seems to be any good at predicting it either. See Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, etc.
The OL hasn't been that much better. It just hasn't. Thomas has helped settle some things down, but he also missed a chunk of one of those gams. The interior hasn't been good and neither has the RT.
Some of the sacks are on DeVito but the OL hasn't been a strength. Last week, the Giants had no yards rushing until the end of the 3rd quarter. DeVito didn't melt. He threw three TDs, something Jones hasn't done in four years.
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
And as I said above, no one on BBI seems to be any good at predicting it either. See Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, etc.
Comment was a bit tongue in cheek.
But seen enough of Nix in both conferences he played to conclude there is not much special in his game. His good stats this year has a lot to do with how Oregon runs their offense and some pretty bad defenses in West. And he still has a penchant for forcing bonehead throws anyway.
If going with one of the west coast QB prospects then go with one of the other guys that have more plus attributes.
Yes, idiots often align themselves accordingly. :-)
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
The way I look it at is this:
- Daniel Jones isn't the guy.
- He's been hurt five times in five years (twice this year).
- Giants are going to have a relatively high draft pick, plus a second 2nd rounder if they need to move up (including possibly moving up late in the 1st round).
- Half the fan base is calling for the head of the GM and HC already. You can say that doesn't matter, but it does.
- This looks like a good year to draft a QB. There maybe a half dozen who are viable NFL starters.
Seems kind of obvious to me.
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
I don't get the Pugh love. I don't think he has been good.
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If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
Gettleman tended to react. For better of worse, Schoen has proven two drafts in a row that he will move to get the guy he wants. He traded up one spot to make sure he got Banks.
But there may be six quarterbacks in this draft who are better than Daniel Jones, Tyrod Taylor, and Tommy DeVito.
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Thomas was out early, Pugh has helped, and other people are playing better. The line now is inconsistent, some good reps, some bad. But it was outright disaster earlier on. We can tell ourselves otherwise to help boost our point, but it's just not true.
I don't get the Pugh love. I don't think he has been good.
I can totally see it.
Nix is more interesting later on in the draft. He doesn't have any elite skills to warrant a lottery pick. But an investment in him on day two or early day three makes the idea more sellable.
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That doesn't happen.
But there may be six quarterbacks in this draft who are better than Daniel Jones, Tyrod Taylor, and Tommy DeVito.
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In comment 16305170 ajr2456 said:
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If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
Gettleman tended to react. For better of worse, Schoen has proven two drafts in a row that he will move to get the guy he wants. He traded up one spot to make sure he got Banks.
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If the Jones backers are worried about forcing a QB pick, what’s going to happen if Jones hurts his neck again next year and has to retire?
The Giants will have force a QB pick anyway. Why not do it when there’s a highly regarded class?
Everyone should be worried about forcing a pick. That's how Gettleman got us into this mess in the first place. Jones part II is not the answer, and that shouldn't even have to be stated.
You don’t know if he’s Jones Part 2 until you see if he’s taking live bullets. Caleb Williams could end up Ryan Lead or Peyton Manning. Jayden Daniels could be a better Lamar or be Daniel Jones Part 2. We can form opinions on who will be good and who won’t, but with QBs you can’t know for sure.
Gettleman forced a QB pick because he was too late on realizing they needed one. The Giants are unfortunately in a similar spot. I don’t consider it forcing it in a highly regarded class. They could miss, but they have to take the risk.
Yes, it would have been a huge mistake. Eli wasn't anywhere close to be done. In that position, the Giants should have gotten a king's ransom for the #1 pick and rebuilt an OL that was done (and still hasn't recovered). Why would the 2012 New York Giants want two franchise QBs?
In any case, Daniel Jones isn't coming off a Super Bowl victory, he's coming off an ACL injury; and Caleb Williams and Drake Maye aren't Andrew Luck and even if they were, the Giants won't be drafting in the top two or three. So putting history aside and given the Giants current circumstances, I don't see them waiting until Day 3 to draft a QB; so it really just comes down to where the QB prospects sit on their draft board compared to the prospects that fill other needs.
p.s.--The Chargers had a pretty good QB in Drew Brees, but fell in love with Phillip Rivers at the Senior Bowl (the Chargers coaching staff was coaching him at that game). Brees elevated his game, keeping Rivers on the bench for two years, but I think those years on the bench served him well and made for a more seamless transition from college to the NFL. The Giants could wind up following a similar model.
If Jordan Love keeps developing, 2020 produced five quality starters
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"Full bloom love," "We've done everything possible to screw this kid up...," "I believe in Daniel Jones... as a person."
We're not the Jets, Texans, Browns. We've won multiple Super Bowls and many more NFL Championships. Why are we finding ways to make excuses for him? Winning a wild card playoff game is not the barometer, and the continued defense of, and excuse-making for, a below-average QB with a 5-year track record of what is, at best, mediocrity is incomprehensible to me.
Also, I still don't understand why the team gave Jones a long-term deal; should've franchised him (at best) and then negotiated with Barkely, if the priority was to run back with both of them. But the only saving grace is that there's an out after next year. Very expensive, but it's doable.
The quicker you tear off the band-aid, and recognize your folly, the better off. It would be nice to see that this organization is ruthlessly committed to winning.
Yup.
It's getting really weird.
What in the world has Daniel Jones done to engender this type of loyalty? He's 22-36-1 as a starter, with 62 TDs in five seasons with 40 INTs and 46 fumbles. Do the math. The numbers are comical.
You can be rest assured that both Dallas and Philly would have replaced their starting QB well before now if they were putting out that kind of product too! Wentz was highly drafted prospect had a few great moments in Philly and was quickly replaced. Dak Prescott, a 4th round pick, has had a very productive career, however it’s the post-season that has been his biggest issue. But you can argue that Dallas is in it every year because of him.
Majority of the fan base, I'd say probably over 90%, understand that Schoen is the right GM for this team and that Daboll is a good head coach.
Anyone who wants them fired already is either not thinking clearly or isn't invested in the long term success of the Giants, they just want someone to yell at every 2 years.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects. And if that’s the case, they have to take say Daniels at 5 even if he’s the #15 guy on their board. If they don’t someone behind them will
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That's why the scouts are flying to all these games. If a guy doesn't grade out, you don't draft him just because we need a QB. That goes for any position. The mindset can't be --get a QB at any cost. It has to be, get the right QB. Because without the right guy, this isn't going to change. In any draft class there are a limited number of guys who will pan out. In some classes, none of them do. No one knows for sure who will or who will not pan out, but the point is, it will be a pretty small number, so be smart.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects.
Great Blue North and DraftTek updated their draft boards on Thanksgiving Day, neither of them had Daniels in their Top 32, let alone their Top 5. I don't think we have any idea at this point how the QB prospects will fall in the 2024 draft. There will be a ton of shuffling between now and then, some based on new information, some based on misinformation.
Majority of the fan base, I'd say probably over 90%, understand that Schoen is the right GM for this team and that Daboll is a good head coach.
Anyone who wants them fired already is either not thinking clearly or isn't invested in the long term success of the Giants, they just want someone to yell at every 2 years.
Yeah, I'm all about baseless claims.
Viva Daniel Jones!
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That doesn't happen.
But there may be six quarterbacks in this draft who are better than Daniel Jones, Tyrod Taylor, and Tommy DeVito.
Lol...6 better than Jones? Man...play the lottery if you're right, you'll win every time. And after a statement like that you call out people who don't want the Giants to do what Carolina did. Their team is fucked for a decade. I may be this "groupie" that you say (odd, coming from the biggest groupie I know in another line of work), but at least I don't have Dan Snyder Syndrome or Jerrah Jones Disease. With glaring needs at RT, RG, LG, OLB, S, CB, TE, WR, DT, and DE, you want to trade multiple 1sts and more for the CHANCE we get Peyton Manning II. Lol.
Sure, but the top 3 QBs in this draft are going to grade out as very good prospects.
How do you know that? From reading BBI?
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And if that’s the case, they have to take say Daniels at 5 even if he’s the #15 guy on their board.
And you're assuming Daniels is one of the three and worthy of a top five pick based on what? BBI? It's not as if you're watching 10 hours of college football a day and visiting with coaches and players every week.
Great Blue North and DraftTek updated their draft boards on Thanksgiving Day, neither of them had Daniels in their Top 32, let alone their Top 5. I don't think we have any idea at this point how the QB prospects will fall in the 2024 draft. There will be a ton of shuffling between now and then, some based on new information, some based on misinformation.
From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
Even if he was, he can't stay on the football field.
He's never going to be good enough to close the gap with the Eagles and Cowboys.
Dragging this out longer than five years is just going to add to the pain, It happens. As my wife just said, stop drafting quarterbacks from Duke. It's a basketball school.
Even if he was, he can't stay on the football field.
He's never going to be good enough to close the gap with the Eagles and Cowboys.
Dragging this out longer than five years is just going to add to the pain, It happens. As my wife just said, stop drafting quarterbacks from Duke. It's a basketball school.
C'mon Eric. That's absurd. If it wasn't you Eric I'd think you were trolling BBI. Did Jones put the moves on your wife?
In four years, he has thrown 38 touchdowns passes (less than 10 per season). He has 40 INTs and 48 fumbles. He's won 22 games in five years.
His back-ups are playing just as well as he was.
Yeah, but I'm crazy. LOL
That's why they need to keep throwing darts until they get this right.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
Schoen and Daboll aren't two clowns off the street. They didn't have to sign him to the contract they did, they could've easily tagged him. And I don't for a second buy into the narrative about pressure from ownership (a fiction based on nothing more than confirmation bias because it's easier to fool yourself into believing you know more football than John Mara than it is to believe you know more than Schoen & Daboll). I'd be surprised if they went from believing him worthy of his contract in February to being desperate to replace him in November.
Honestly don't understand why people are even saying it. It's purely coping.
In four years, he has thrown 38 touchdowns passes (less than 10 per season). He has 40 INTs and 48 fumbles. He's won 22 games in five years.
His back-ups are playing just as well as he was.
Yeah, but I'm crazy. LOL
Now Eric you know I'd never say you were crazy. Just wrong about Jones. Except his injuries.
Anyway, nothing meaningful is going to happen with or about DJ for months and there's nothing to add that's going to change anyone's mind. Personally I'm rooting for wins.
From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
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Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
Reaches happen quite often. Anthony Richardson is one himself.. But we don't see many guys getting universally praised by the media and armchair QB's and then they fall in the draft. Then hey, turns out, they were right. Fans and media just ignore it and move on, but they make sure to bitch and moan during the Draft and all summer.
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From seeing them play in person and talking to people in the business. I’ll take their opinions over fans that run a draft site, no disrespect to them. Every scout and agent I’ve spoken to thinks Daniels goes in the top 10 and possibly the top 5.
I didn't realize you had the privilege of speaking with scouts and agents. Can you be more specific on what they had to say? I like the fact that Daniels is a 22-year old with five years of college experience, but too much of his production comes from running and he doesn't look big enough to sustain that at the NFL level.
Did you just write this with a straight face?
This year, Daniels has nearly 4K passing yard, 40 passing TDs against 4 INTs, a near 12 YPA and completes 72% of his passes. He does have 10 rushing TDs and 1K rushing.
He's 6'4", btw, with plenty of room to get bigger.
I don't mind legit criticism of a prospect, but posters need to wake up and really start paying more attention.
We have no proof that Bill Belichick is a good GM or evaluator of offensive players other than TEs.
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In comment 16305324 Toth029 said:
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Remember coaches, scouts and GMs view players differently than armchair QB's and people alike. It's become more evident year after year. Anthony Richardson shot up the draft board very high last year and he was unlike your typical first rounder. Good traits but raw and inaccurate as hell. And most got Dwayne Haskins wrong by a country mile. He was viewed by the media and fans as a top 6 pick. If Dan Snyder hadn't picked him, he probably falls out of the 1st round.
It works in reverse too though. There’s plenty of guys who “armchair GM’s” absolutely hated that scouts took at the top of the draft. We have one of them.
Reaches happen quite often. Anthony Richardson is one himself.. But we don't see many guys getting universally praised by the media and armchair QB's and then they fall in the draft. Then hey, turns out, they were right. Fans and media just ignore it and move on, but they make sure to bitch and moan during the Draft and all summer.
Richardson was a reach? Based on what? Guys who get praised by the media don’t fall in the draft? Aaron Rodgers?